Fizzy Voss Grass Texture.

[LD_Little_Dragon]

3 hours ago, Ruvalie said:

I've been having the same problem since the texture "upgrade." It totally ruined Voss. What really worries me is that they're planning to do this to every planet, and that would make the game unplayable for me.

Someone earlier in the thread said it might have to do with screen resolution. I'm playing in 1080p. If they really plan on making the game inaccessible to everyone who doesn't play on 4k, that's a really stupid and unrealistic decision for an old/classic game.

Fits with their policy of claiming to improve accessability while simultaneously adding 'upgrades' that remove accessability.

Like removing the low shader option, that removed the option to make the game less dark and increase visibility indoors, something I'm still bitter about.  I had to manually remove ALL shaders to avoid eyestrain.  Which frankly, looks terrible, but is worth it to be able to play for longer periods of time.

I have the feeling that their QA testers (if they still have any) only test on high-end machines, and for what things players with no physical problems at all can do.

[OwenBrooks]

8 hours ago, Jazulfi said:

@OwenBrooks - I'd *just* done this when I saw your reply! Thank you!

Here is the link:-

Demo of Grass Distortion on Voss

Please play at highest quality setting, and I *hope* people can see what I mean.

I suppose I'm a 'content creator' now! 😄 (not really ofc)

 

 

I have passed the video link to the live team for a closer look

[Jazulfi]

@OwenBrooks - thank you thank you for taking the time!

I actually recorded a slightly better vid but thought posting another one might be too noisy of me, but I can post it if necessary.

[OwenBrooks]

1 minute ago, Jazulfi said:

@OwenBrooks - thank you thank you for taking the time!

I actually recorded a slightly better vid but thought posting another one might be too noisy of me, but I can post it if necessary.

shouldnt be needed at moment

[arunav]

14 hours ago, Jazulfi said:

@OwenBrooks - I'd *just* done this when I saw your reply! Thank you!

Here is the link:-

Demo of Grass Distortion on Voss

Please play at highest quality setting, and I *hope* people can see what I mean.

I suppose I'm a 'content creator' now! 😄 (not really ofc)

 

 

Can confirm this is the same problem I am having - blurry grass/ground when moving, but it looks like it should when standing still. I think it's easier to notice on a speeder. 

This only happens on Voss and has only occurred after the Voss environments/graphics were updated in 7.3. 

For whoever looks into why this is happening, thanks. Voss is a unique planet in the game and also in Star Wars lore. It has some of the best stories in the base game on it. The SWTOR team, past and present, should be proud of Voss. Please fix the blurry grass. It looks quite strange and really takes away from what was one of the best planets in SWTOR.

Edited October 20, 2023 by arunav

[Jazulfi]

Not sure if this information is useful, but thought I'd post anyway.

My very beloved faithful Dell U2412M monitor is dying a death after more than a decade. It is very ancient and I wondered if that was behind the Voss grass distortion.

I've replaced it with a Dell S2722DGM - not top of the range but not terrible either - however, the Voss 'fizzy' grass distortion is still there. So, not the monitor?

As before, everything else looks fantastic - better than ever because of new screen.

Is there an update on this issue? Many thanks.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Jazulfi

[xordevoreaux]

Just got an nvidia 4070 and I'm playing at max everything. Voss still fizzy. At this point I'm thinking the cure is a 4k monitor, which I lack.

[Jazulfi]

7 minutes ago, xordevoreaux said:

Just got an nvidia 4070 and I'm playing at max everything. Voss still fizzy. At this point I'm thinking the cure is a 4k monitor, which I lack.

Yeah I just can't afford a budget 4k monitor at the moment, let alone a good one.

I really wish they'd acknowledge the problem and give us an update, partly because I'm curious to know what's causing it, but I'd also really really like a solution.

I don't want to be overly dramatic, but I am concerned that future zones might have the same problem. Voss is so uncomfortable to play (for me anyway 🤢), I *hate* going there, so I've not enjoyed the recent story content at all, which is terrible because the narrative is my fave thing! I just want to get it over with. And ofc I never do the Voss dailies.

[xordevoreaux]

1 minute ago, Jazulfi said:

Yeah I just can't afford a budget 4k monitor at the moment, let alone a good one.

I really wish they'd acknowledge the problem and give us an update, partly because I'm curious to know what's causing it, but I'd also really really like a solution.

I don't want to be overly dramatic, but I am concerned that future zones might have the same problem. Voss is so uncomfortable to play (for me anyway 🤢), I *hate* going there, so I've not enjoyed the recent story content at all, which is terrible because the narrative is my fave thing! I just want to get it over with. And ofc I never do the Voss dailies.

My eyes are going bad so I have built-in anti-aliasing. Jokes aside, the grass texture is livable for me, not entirely distracting.

I think games really should work toward the current tier of technology, otherwise we'd never be pushed along and still be sitting here with 9-inch green screen monochrome 80-column monitors like I the one I had in 1984.

[Jazulfi]

15 minutes ago, xordevoreaux said:

My eyes are going bad so I have built-in anti-aliasing. Jokes aside, the grass texture is livable for me, not entirely distracting.

I think games really should work toward the current tier of technology, otherwise we'd never be pushed along and still be sitting here with 9-inch green screen monochrome 80-column monitors like I the one I had in 1984.

LOL! Well, yes. I do understand that PC games have a tricky balance to set when it comes to technology. Older mmos have a particularly difficult time keeping up I think, with the unusal thorny problem of a player base which never goes away. WoW seems to cope quite gracefully (was Cataclysm one big graphics update?) and ESO made everyone entirely reinstall the game a few years ago, iirc?

I wouldn't mind if it was just about graphics looking a bit rubbish or something, but it's a problem which physically affects me irl.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Jazulfi

[Spikanor]

23 minutes ago, xordevoreaux said:

I think games really should work toward the current tier of technology, otherwise we'd never be pushed along and still be sitting here with 9-inch green screen monochrome 80-column monitors like I the one I had in 1984.

the problem is also on what for game engine is the game build from.

if you use a custom own build game engine you have make from scrap you can update it.

but if you use a game engine from a other company like unreal game engine then you are little screwt with that.

and for this game its only more worse since its a beta stage game engine what is also really old and only gets more and more problems.

[denavin]

I've watched your video a few dozen times and even went to Voss to try to see what it is you are seeing and I think I may have an explanation for you.

The "Morrie" pattern you are seeing it more of an optical illusion caused by the way an LED / LCD computer monitor display works than anything wrong with the game, though the recent graphic improvements did make it more noticeable. 

The screen of your monitor is made up of tiny vertically orientated rectangular pixels not dots, arranged in rows. If you look closely at the screen with a magnifier you can see these rows of pixels. It is done this way because more pixels can be put on the screen as rectangles than can be using dots. When they upgraded to graphics in SWToR they made many of the drawings and images of much smaller polygons which makes the image seem like it is a Higher Resolution because of the smaller lines that can be drawn on your screen. But there is a slight downfall with this because the game is DirectX9 and not DirectX12.

Because the lines are thinner they may be only one pixel thick and will only light one row of pixels on your monitor. If this one pixel thick line does not perfectly align with the row of pixels on your monitor then it will have to cross over to a row of pixels next to it. Since these rows of pixels have a very small but visible gap between them you will see the line break as it crosses over these gaps. Because DX9 does not have the sophisticated rendering engine that DX12 has you'll see this cross as a break in the line.

As the line moves across this gap it lights and turns off pixels as it moves and your eye will interpret this as a Morrie pattern because of the extremely small size of the gap and the natural retention of you eye's vision.

Secondly the higher the resolution of your Monitor (ie.. a 4K Capable Monitor) the more pronounced these patters will be and more enhanced. Because of the higher resolution the monitor will have even smaller pixels which will mean, though the pixels and the gaps between are smaller, more gaps will be seen by your eye and make the Morrie pattern even easier to see. If your moving fast enough then the Morrie patter will appear to "Flicker and Sparkle" as you have mentioned.

The only way to reduce this would be for the game to go back to the larger polygons and lower resolution as it was before. But that may no longer be an option. Hopefully once the game starts using DX12 this will no longer be an issue but until then it is something we are going to have to live with because DX9's inadequate rendering ability.

[Jazulfi]

@denavin - oh my word, thank you so much for taking the time to investigate and respond. I know you are theorising but I *really* appreciate the comprehensive and thoughtful explanation. I'm afraid I know next to nothing about how monitors work, but your suggestion makes sense, particularly in light of how amazing the graphics are for the rest of my game. I'm particularly heartened by the prospect of DX12 fixing things. I didn't know they were planning this, and that's such good news anyway, aside from the Voss grass. Do we know when that might happen?

Anyway, I'm genuinely grateful for the time you've taken to think about the problem, it's very kind. I will cross my fingers, avoid Voss for the time being and go there on my holidays when DX12 arrives.

Edit:- I mean to ask, does that mean it's a *me* issue then, as in literally it's an eyeball hardware problem specifically do to with me looking at my screen?

Many thanks!!

Edited November 23, 2023 by Jazulfi

[denavin]

No it is not a "me" only problem it is simply the way that monitors and the human eye works, that is why some people see it more than others as I did initially. It is my hope that once DX12 is implemented that the improved rendering system will help to eliminate much of this. But that remains to be seen..... Literately.

[arunav]

On 11/22/2023 at 7:07 PM, denavin said:

I've watched your video a few dozen times and even went to Voss to try to see what it is you are seeing and I think I may have an explanation for you.

The "Morrie" pattern you are seeing it more of an optical illusion caused by the way an LED / LCD computer monitor display works than anything wrong with the game, though the recent graphic improvements did make it more noticeable. 

The screen of your monitor is made up of tiny vertically orientated rectangular pixels not dots, arranged in rows. If you look closely at the screen with a magnifier you can see these rows of pixels. It is done this way because more pixels can be put on the screen as rectangles than can be using dots. When they upgraded to graphics in SWToR they made many of the drawings and images of much smaller polygons which makes the image seem like it is a Higher Resolution because of the smaller lines that can be drawn on your screen. But there is a slight downfall with this because the game is DirectX9 and not DirectX12.

Because the lines are thinner they may be only one pixel thick and will only light one row of pixels on your monitor. If this one pixel thick line does not perfectly align with the row of pixels on your monitor then it will have to cross over to a row of pixels next to it. Since these rows of pixels have a very small but visible gap between them you will see the line break as it crosses over these gaps. Because DX9 does not have the sophisticated rendering engine that DX12 has you'll see this cross as a break in the line.

As the line moves across this gap it lights and turns off pixels as it moves and your eye will interpret this as a Morrie pattern because of the extremely small size of the gap and the natural retention of you eye's vision.

Secondly the higher the resolution of your Monitor (ie.. a 4K Capable Monitor) the more pronounced these patters will be and more enhanced. Because of the higher resolution the monitor will have even smaller pixels which will mean, though the pixels and the gaps between are smaller, more gaps will be seen by your eye and make the Morrie pattern even easier to see. If your moving fast enough then the Morrie patter will appear to "Flicker and Sparkle" as you have mentioned.

The only way to reduce this would be for the game to go back to the larger polygons and lower resolution as it was before. But that may no longer be an option. Hopefully once the game starts using DX12 this will no longer be an issue but until then it is something we are going to have to live with because DX9's inadequate rendering ability.

I've been playing through Voss again over the Chirstmas holiday, both the original planet and the newer area in 7.3.

Here's the thing: if what you say is true, how did nobody working on the update at BW/BS notice this? I use a non-gaming laptop screen that's 3 years old, and it's really obvious. I'm assuming the studio artists, programmers, and the like use 4k monitors. Surely, they would have seen the effect. 

As it stands, one of the best planets and parts of SWTOR, Voss, is messed up. You can't move without the effect occurring, optical illusion or not. 

There's also the possibility you aren't correct. I honestly don't know enough about this sort of topic to say one way or another. I do, however, find it strange someone on the SWTOR team wouldn't have noticed it, if it occurs on higher resoution monitors more noticibly. This makes me think it's at least possible there's another explaination, one that can be fixed by BS hopefully. 

Any chance someone from the BS team can weigh in? It really is a bad problem. I normally don't care about graphics much, and this is honestly bothersome. 

Edit: one other interesting note - I don't notice the effect as easily in the new Interpreter's Retreat area, even on a speeder. The grass looks somewhat different there compared to the original Voss planet, however. 

Edited December 25, 2023 by arunav

[denavin]

9 hours ago, arunav said:

I've been playing through Voss again over the Chirstmas holiday, both the original planet and the newer area in 7.3.

Here's the thing: if what you say is true, how did nobody working on the update at BW/BS notice this? I use a non-gaming laptop screen that's 3 years old, and it's really obvious. I'm assuming the studio artists, programmers, and the like use 4k monitors. Surely, they would have seen the effect. 

As it stands, one of the best planets and parts of SWTOR, Voss, is messed up. You can't move without the effect occurring, optical illusion or not. 

There's also the possibility you aren't correct. I honestly don't know enough about this sort of topic to say one way or another. I do, however, find it strange someone on the SWTOR team wouldn't have noticed it, if it occurs on higher resoution monitors more noticibly. This makes me think it's at least possible there's another explaination, one that can be fixed by BS hopefully. 

Any chance someone from the BS team can weigh in? It really is a bad problem. I normally don't care about graphics much, and this is honestly bothersome. 

Edit: one other interesting note - I don't notice the effect as easily in the new Interpreters Retreat area, even on a speeder. The grass looks somewhat different there compared to the original Voss planet, however. 

It's a limitation of DirectX9, when they upgraded the graphics they made all the textures thinner and smaller in an attempt to increase resolution, thus making Morrie patterns more noticeable now then when the textures were not as thin. The thinner textures are now as thin as 1 pixel wide, and the way DirectX9 works it would make these thin textures even more noticeable when they cross over from one pixel to the next pixel causing a Morrie pattern. You can mitigate this effect some by increasing Anti-Aliasing but it still will not completely resolve it and the increased Anti-Aliasing will drastically slow down the games frame rate when there is a lot of movement and textures on the screen. If the game was DirectX12 then the improved rendering of DX12 would make the Morrie effect far less noticeable.  

As for the Dev's not seeing it, they probably did but again because the game is DX9 there is not much that can be done about it. Try to remember that this game runs on a highly modified and hacked 2008 beta version of the Hero engine and does not have the sophisticated rendering of modern game engines, thus it has limits not only caused by DX9 but by the game engine it's self.

There are many other imperfections caused by DX9 in the game other than just the visible Morrie.

And yes higher resolution monitors ie 4K compatible will show this even more because of their higher scan rate and smaller pixels and higher pixel count on the screen.

A new game engine and DX12 would fix this but as far as a new game engine, I doubt that will ever happen because it would mean a total rewrite of the game code and that would be far too expensive to do. Though I have heard that DX12 is a possibility, but how that looks on a 2008 hacked and modified beta Hero game engine remains to be seen..... Literally.

As for now it is best if you just tune it out of your mind and ignore it and don't look for the many imperfections of the game.

[LD_Little_Dragon]

6 hours ago, denavin said:

As for now it is best if you just tune it out of your mind and ignore it and don't look for the many imperfections of the game.

Not like we have any other option.  Although it would be best if the dev's did proper quality testing and didn't push through crap 'upgrades' like this that are actually downgrades for most systems.

[Jazulfi]

Don't suppose there's an update on this? I'd love to know if Broadsword have acknowledged this as an issue and knows how to fix it, or if those of us who experience the problem are just going to have to lump it.

[Nee-Elder]

6 minutes ago, Jazulfi said:

Don't suppose there's an update on this?

OwenBrooks  already told you --> https://forums.swtor.com/topic/931517-fizzy-voss-grass-texture/?do=findComment&comment=9782603

Maybe just keep waiting?

You know, the same way i keep waiting since 2018 for  ANYONE  at BioSword to commit  Dev resources toward  significant GSF  expansion.

[Jazulfi]

2 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

OwenBrooks  already told you --> https://forums.swtor.com/topic/931517-fizzy-voss-grass-texture/?do=findComment&comment=9782603

Maybe just keep waiting?

You know, the same way i keep waiting since 2018 for  ANYONE  at BioSword to commit  Dev resources toward  significant GSF  expansion.

For Pete's sake, Nee-Elder, just leave me alone. There's nothing unreasonable about enquiring if there's new information about this issue. I'm not being rude, I'm not pestering, I'm not asking an outrageous question. I haven't even posted here since January. Hovering eagerly over the forum waiting to tell people off for just asking stuff about the game is really tiresome and just uneccessary gatekeeping. Presumably they have mods? In any case, I'll not bother you again for another few months, rest easy.

[Nee-Elder]

29 minutes ago, Jazulfi said:

. Hovering eagerly over the forum waiting to tell people off for just asking stuff about the game is really tiresome and just uneccessary gatekeeping.

Funny because i feel the same way about YOUR  impatient posts toward BioSword.

Regardless, you're free to post however you want. ( within rules )

I'm free to REPLY to your posts however i want. ( within same rules )

Forums 101.

No one is "gatekeeping" anyone here.

Edited March 4 by Nee-Elder
Reason: if the dude re-read my reply, he would see i was really poking fun at MYSELF lol 2018 still no GSF

[Tourmaline]

It has been a problem focus and defocus of the grass textures. Hope they look into it.

[orichichan]

The fuzzy / pixelated effect is still here. I would like Broadsword can fix this effect because it's really annoying. If they could give us some words about this it will be great because no news and no solutions to fix this.