My issues with the level 75 legacy sets

[Cloneborg]

1. Why is the green adaptive bound on legacy gear such as the pieces  from the Sha'tek set, if we can even call that a set as it doesn't provide any set bonuses, restricted to level 75+ when they offer NOTHING that deserves that restriction unlike the gear that provides the set bonuses like the "Saber master" set? What makes them so POWERFUL if they are equipped by a lower level character besides their LOOKS? Is there some hidden bonus they provide that is not displayed but I have to google about it and watch videos on Youtube? Because of that restriction I can't use them in the outfitter on the low level chars! Makes absolutely no sense.

2. Why do the sets that have set bonuses, such as the "Saber master" set, have their sets work only for level 75 but don't work if the character is level 76 and higher? What is in the set bonuses that BRAKES the game balance so badly that you have to inactive them?

[SteveTheCynic]

3 hours ago, Cloneborg said:

green adaptive bound on legacy gear such as the pieces  from the Sha'tek set

All level 75+ gear (well, frankly, almost all gear) is adaptive (adapts its weight to the heaviest the wearer is allowed to wear).  The distinguishing feature of Sha'tek gear is that it is *moddable*.  "adaptive" is not a synonym for "moddable", and never was.

3 hours ago, Cloneborg said:

when they offer NOTHING that deserves that restriction

What they offer is level 75+ mod-objects by default.  Have you removed the mod-objects to see what the core requires-level is when they are empty?

3 hours ago, Cloneborg said:

Why do the sets that have set bonuses, such as the "Saber master" set, have their sets work only for level 75 but don't work if the character is level 76 and higher? What is in the set bonuses that BRAKES the game balance so badly that you have to inactive them?

Those are good questions, ones that people first asked when 7.0 was on the PTS.  Clearly they intend us to use the level 80 system once we are level 80, so having the bonuses active for levels 75-79 would seem reasonable in that context.

[LD_Little_Dragon]

4 hours ago, SteveTheCynic said:

 

What they offer is level 75+ mod-objects by default.  Have you removed the mod-objects to see what the core requires-level is when they are empty?

 

I have, and even with zero mods the items are still level 75+.  Which is a shame, since I usually get my outfits/weapons chosen well before a character gets that high.

[Spikanor]

5 hours ago, SteveTheCynic said:

so having the bonuses active for levels 75-79 would seem reasonable in that context.

then why not also let it work when you hit lvl 80 since there are people that are not going to use the new gearing system since there cant get the upgrade's for it.

players that never run opps or never play pvp never get the tokens to upgrade there armor.

sure there drop now here and there sometime's but still its force you to play contant you never are going to play in the first place and not like.

[Cloneborg]

13 hours ago, SteveTheCynic said:

16 hours ago, Cloneborg said:

green adaptive bound on legacy gear such as the pieces  from the Sha'tek set

All level 75+ gear (well, frankly, almost all gear) is adaptive (adapts its weight to the heaviest the wearer is allowed to wear).  The distinguishing feature of Sha'tek gear is that it is *moddable*.  "adaptive" is not a synonym for "moddable", and never was.

16 hours ago, Cloneborg said:

when they offer NOTHING that deserves that restriction

What they offer is level 75+ mod-objects by default.  Have you removed the mod-objects to see what the core requires-level is when they are empty?

16 hours ago, Cloneborg said:

Why do the sets that have set bonuses, such as the "Saber master" set, have their sets work only for level 75 but don't work if the character is level 76 and higher? What is in the set bonuses that BRAKES the game balance so badly that you have to inactive them?

Those are good questions, ones that people first asked when 7.0 was on the PTS.  Clearly they intend us to use the level 80 system once we are level 80, so having the bonuses active for levels 75-79 would seem reasonable in that context.

It is good to be punctual but I HAVEN"T seen any lvl 75 gear that is adaptive but it is not moddable. Both the Sha'tek and the Saber master sets are moddable. Sha'tek without the mods is no different that any of the adaptive and moddable sets that we can put on at level 1, such as the "Supreme Inquisitor's" set - the same armor amount 32 armor, and 4 modification slats, and therefore there is no reason the "Sha'tek" set to be locked for lvl 75+, that is what I am trying to bring to the attention of the developers.

Yes I have removed the mods and the set pieces are restricted to lvl 75+.

Well, the set bonuses are not active beyond lvl 75. In fact besides these lvl 75 sets there are NO other MODDABLE LEGACY BOUND SETS in the game, that I am aware off, that have SET bonuses, which begs the next question - why are there different sets in the game that don't offer anything different from one another besides their LOOKS and in some cases being class or faction specific? Shouldn't the looks always be associated with FUNCTIONALITY as it is properly done with the lvl 75 legacy bound sets that have set bonuses? I think so, and should be done from level 1 to level 80, the only level restriction should be because they would affect skills that the player gets a later access in the game, so if a set bonus affects skill that i get at level 54 then while I can wear all the pieces before that I wouldn't benefit from the set bonuses until I acquire that skill.

[Ominovin]

19 hours ago, Cloneborg said:

...
2. Why do the sets that have set bonuses, such as the "Saber master" set, have their sets work only for level 75 but don't work if the character is level 76 and higher? What is in the set bonuses that BRAKES the game balance so badly that you have to inactive them?

One of the important things an expansion has to do is 'reset' everyone's gear level so all players have a roughly equal starting position:  No gear from the prior expansions should still be mechanically useful by the time you reach the new level cap.  As such, the level 75 set bonuses need to 'die' by the time the player reaches 80, or you end up in a situation where a 'new' player needs to do a great deal of extra grinding to get those set bonuses while a veteran doesn't.

Now, why the bonuses 'die' at 76 rather than 80 isn't quite clear:  Most likely, they wanted to get the players used to the new gearing paradigm as quickly as possible, so they went with a 'rip the bandage off quickly' approach that encourages players to actually use the 312 and 318 mission reward greens.

Oh, and the word you are looking for is 'BREAKS' rather than 'BRAKES'...

[SteveTheCynic]

10 hours ago, Cloneborg said:

It is good to be punctual but I HAVEN"T seen any lvl 75 gear that is adaptive but it is not moddable.

You've never seen Onderonian pieces?  They are adaptive-weight and fixed stats, from 270 up to 306.

10 hours ago, Cloneborg said:

Yes I have removed the mods and the set pieces are restricted to lvl 75+.

OK, thanks.  Maybe all that's required for the "looks in Outfit Designer" part is that they enable high-level gear to be stamped into Outfitter tabs even on low-level characters.  That would have the added benefit of allowing us to use high-level crafted gear on low-level characters.  (I'm thinking specifically of the Impside appearance of the Charged Hypercloth Force Expert's set.  This one.)

10 hours ago, Cloneborg said:

Well, the set bonuses are not active beyond lvl 75. In fact besides these lvl 75 sets there are NO other MODDABLE LEGACY BOUND SETS in the game, that I am aware off, that have SET bonuses,

The Master's Datacron bundle used to include a set of Eternal Commander MK-3, level 70 gear from the 5.X era with a set bonus that works up to level 74.  Now that the MD promotes you to level 80, I have no idea what you get from the gear box.

10 hours ago, Cloneborg said:

which begs the next question - why are there different sets in the game that don't offer anything different from one another besides their LOOKS and in some cases being class or faction specific?

The class-specific part is exactly why there are different sets.  They were *always* class-specific (and in a few cases *discipline* dependent since tank builds require different things compared to DPS and heal builds), even before 6.0, since some of the bonus effects were dependent on use of specific abilities.

But the level 75 set-bonus sets were *radically* different between different classes and disciplines.

10 hours ago, Cloneborg said:

Shouldn't the looks always be associated with FUNCTIONALITY

That ship sailed long ago and was sunk by submarines before it even got over the horizon.  I mean, yes, parhaps, in an ideal world, Sith should wear Sithy-looking armour, Jedi should dress like fugitive hermits(1), troopers should wear military armour, etc., but this is not an ideal world, and the freedom to dress our characters how we like is part of the game, like it or not.  (I like it, but whatever.)

10 hours ago, Cloneborg said:

as it is properly done with the lvl 75 legacy bound sets that have set bonuses? I think so, and should be done from level 1 to level 80, the only level restriction should be because they would affect skills that the player gets a later access in the game, so if a set bonus affects skill that i get at level 54 then while I can wear all the pieces before that I wouldn't benefit from the set bonuses until I acquire that skill.

Except that SWTOR follows the model that set bonuses are bonus features for doing end-game content(2), and in that model, sub-max set bonus gear does not make much sense.  The older set bonus gear is still around to let people keep the bonuses they worked for until they can start using the new system at the new maximum level.  (Except for the level 75 stuff, which bizarrely switches its bonus off at level 76+...)

For reference, for 7.0 they moved the set bonus to implants, and you have to see the BT4 Twi'lek dude in the last Supplies bay on the Fleet to unlock access to the vendor that sells them.

(1) Why do Jedi wear all those robes?  Well consider the first (in real-world film-release order) Jedi we ever meet, living under the pseudonym "Ben Kenobi".  He wears what are now considered to be Jedi robes, but Revenge of the Sith tells us that he is a fugitive from Order 66, and his life is forfeit if anyone knows he's a Jedi.  Why would he dress like a Jedi under those conditions?

(2) Other games use other models.  GW2 doesn't have set bonuses at all, and ESO has lots and lots of different set-bonus sets, with no restrictions on when you can wear them - if you can get hold of them on your level 1 character, you can use them - and a wide variety of effects, some of which aren't actually related to combat.  (Adept Rider gives a speed boost if you have five pieces of it, and it's the same in and out of combat.)

Edited August 19, 2023 by SteveTheCynic
MK-3, not MK-5

[SteveTheCynic]

18 hours ago, Spikanor said:

then why not also let it work when you hit lvl 80 since there are people that are not going to use the new gearing system since there cant get the upgrade's for it.

players that never run opps or never play pvp never get the tokens to upgrade there armor.

sure there drop now here and there sometime's but still its force you to play contant you never are going to play in the first place and not like.

Now that they've removed DRMs, we can upgrade the "Conquest" type gear easily, and the new equivalent to set bonuses is implants anyway.

[Qua-Tari]

19 hours ago, SteveTheCynic said:

The Master's Datacron bundle used to include a set of Eternal Commander MK-3, level 70 gear from the 5.X era with a set bonus that works up to level 74.  Now that the MD promotes you to level 80, I have no idea what you get from the gear box.

You can buy class gear with the same 70-74 bonuses on Ossus, 20k credits a piece, artifact (purple) quality - freely but at level 70 only. Gold quality piece upgrades about 40-50k credits, but you need Legendary reputation with Ossus faction.

As for the 75 sets, it was imo a bad decision to remove the bonuses as soon as you reach level 76, at least they could have kept the bonus until level 79, which would have been a sensible decision. The way it looks like, they just band rolled over any 6.0 level 75 set to make them to become obsolete, in order to force the new 7.0 set implant grind become the new standard. No careful consideration done, just burn it and gone.

[Shayddow]

Quote

Why do Jedi wear all those robes?  Well consider the first (in real-world film-release order) Jedi we ever meet, living under the pseudonym "Ben Kenobi".  He wears what are now considered to be Jedi robes, 

By most Star Wars fans, yes. But I see it a bit differently. I see what he is wearing is Desert attire, not Jedi robes. If you look at what most people wear in desert settings (Bedouin people for example) it is very similar. Tatooine is a desert planet. It just so happens that most Jedi seem to like to wear desert attire, just as you see Saudis wear distinctive clothing outside of Saudi Arabia.

[SteveTheCynic]

2 hours ago, Shayddow said:

By most Star Wars fans, yes. But I see it a bit differently. I see what he is wearing is Desert attire, not Jedi robes. If you look at what most people wear in desert settings (Bedouin people for example) it is very similar. Tatooine is a desert planet. It just so happens that most Jedi seem to like to wear desert attire, just as you see Saudis wear distinctive clothing outside of Saudi Arabia.

Sure, but it's illogical for him to be wearing clothes that look so much like Jedi gear when he's hiding from people who want to kill him for being a Jedi.

3 hours ago, Qua-Tari said:

You can buy class gear with the same 70-74 bonuses on Ossus, 20k credits a piece, artifact (purple) quality - freely but at level 70 only. Gold quality piece upgrades about 40-50k credits, but you need Legendary reputation with Ossus faction.

Oops.  I forgot about those.  Good spot.

3 hours ago, Qua-Tari said:

As for the 75 sets, it was imo a bad decision to remove the bonuses as soon as you reach level 76, at least they could have kept the bonus until level 79, which would have been a sensible decision.

I agree.

3 hours ago, Qua-Tari said:

The way it looks like, they just band rolled over any 6.0 level 75 set to make them to become obsolete, in order to force the new 7.0 set implant grind become the new standard. No careful consideration done, just burn it and gone.

Good point, especially since the set bonuses in 6.0 were on the shells, so if they worked at level 80, we'd be able to crank ourselves up high enough to access level 80 mod-objects for them and reuse them.

[TheVoyant]

What is most fascinating is that you're still way more powerful in a level 75 set optimized at lvl 75 then you are at level 80 in end game gear.

See Damage Ratings in the 40k mark at that point on even the weakest specs. Where as you're lucky to break 30k in the Damage Rating at 80. 

Weirdest balancing I have ever seen, oh you're level 80? Minus 10k bc reasons. 

[LD_Little_Dragon]

1 hour ago, TheVoyant said:

What is most fascinating is that you're still way more powerful in a level 75 set optimized at lvl 75 then you are at level 80 in end game gear.

See Damage Ratings in the 40k mark at that point on even the weakest specs. Where as you're lucky to break 30k in the Damage Rating at 80. 

Weirdest balancing I have ever seen, oh you're level 80? Minus 10k bc reasons. 

Damage rating?  Are you using those numbers on the main character sheet? They're meaningless.  You should look at the stats under that details popup, those are the important ones.

At level 80 I do better dps in basic, reasonably stat balanced, 324 gear then in 75 gear. 

[Rujopetteri]

53 minutes ago, LD_Little_Dragon said:

Damage rating?  Are you using those numbers on the main character sheet? They're meaningless.  You should look at the stats under that details popup, those are the important ones.

At level 80 I do better dps in basic, reasonably stat balanced, 324 gear then in 75 gear. 

I think he meant that if you're lvl 75 in lvl75 (306) gear you'll do a lot more damage than if you're lvl80 in lvl 80 gear at least in level synced content. That is at least how it feels to me but i don't have any numbers or metrics to back it up. Thats just how it feels when playing. Lvl 75 toon in ir 306 gear just flies trough enemies compared to a lvl 80 in 336 (i don't do ops so i have no experience with 340 stuff).

Also the punishment for using 306 gear after you're 76+ is utterly stupid. At no point should your power level go down when you level up. Especially in level synced content. 

It's beyond stupid that when you're doing for example lvl 70 content on a lvl75 char on 306 gear and you level up to 76 and boom, you're suddenly performing way worse than the guy next to you on a lvl 68 toon on a rag tag mix of green story reward gear.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Rujopetteri

[TheVoyant]

58 minutes ago, LD_Little_Dragon said:

Damage rating?  Are you using those numbers on the main character sheet? They're meaningless.  You should look at the stats under that details popup, those are the important ones.

At level 80 I do better dps in basic, reasonably stat balanced, 324 gear then in 75 gear. 

I can easily kick out 105-120k Thundering Blasts on a Lvl 75 vs. 90ks on a Lvl 80. Lightning Sorc.

I simply used the Damage Rating to be a universal explanation vs. Class Specific. 

[Nadforce]

They also stomp the **** out of everyone in the below 80 pvp bracket. Making such legacy accounts high value on black market for a certain segment.

No offense, and I will admit to being tempted a bit towards jealousy of such a unfair advantage in pvp, but this powerpeak has to go.
It is as if someone, somewhere was supposed to include 75's in the usual power curve knockdown but instead only took the 76+.
Like a bad case of 'if (x > 75)' instead of 'if(x >= 75)' when the level cap was raised. Hard to spot in a codereview if you are not on top of things.

For starters, they could begin bolstering everyone evenly in the sub-80 pvp group: something simple like bolster to 324 and level 80 and turn off old set bonuses. That should really flatten it out and make these 75-specific shenanigans moot. Want to object?? Go away if you can't handle a even playing field.
Or set everyone there to level 70 and 232greens or 220 blues. The number is not so important, but a quick bandaid would work wonders to not turn new players away from pvp because of a screeching failure to protect them from something so easily preventable. And while you are at it, disable augments in the sub-80 section as well, they are already disadvantaged enough by not having unlocked their skilltrees fully yet.

As it is, when the newbies come complaining in chat, the advice is always: don't pvp until maxlevel (80) or you will have a extra bad time. Which means we get these totally unprepared players at 80 who don't even know how to navigate the maps or basic tactics - the rest have given up on pvp completely. Those who take the advice then also have to deal with augmented experienced players, who are months ahead in gearing. They need that "fair playground" before 80 to get to grips with things. Except it is anything but. It is loaded with olds who made sure not to unlock the level cap so they can stay there and stomp and definitely do not want to have to play without such a large and exclusive edge.

I am somewhat less concerned about it in pure soloplay, because the outcome gains are rather limited there (more limited by spawn rates), but in group play and pvp it should be wiped out.