How do you even go about fixing such a fragmented story with so little momentum?

[jedimasterjac]

I’ve been thinking about the game’s narrative arc and I’m just… really at a loss. There’s no thrust, no momentum. We bounce around to these random locations while accomplishing very little of note.
 

We’ve been following Malgus’s same vision of the galaxy on fire arguably since Deceived and at least since Onslaught in 2019… and we still literally only know that what he’s planning to do will set the galaxy on fire. 
 

We’ve abandoned our class stories and our factions, become the most powerful people in the galaxy, then lost our fleet and limped back to our factions. We’re back to being couriers but without any real identity. 
 

The game’s devoted to a half dozen companions that they’ve also killed off, and they’ve tried to create new relationships by removing the old cast and slowly bringing them back and remixing who’s who, without any of the weight or the energy of the vanilla stories. 
 

There’s no momentum. There’s no end point. We go round and round. Why does this game invest so heavily in cinematics, in conversations, in voiceover, when it fundamentally has nothing to say and nowhere to go? How does one even fix this?

 

At this point I don’t know how you save anything without a reboot, but how can you reboot or relaunch or restart when you’ve invested so much into perpetually circling the drain?

 

I dunno where I’m going with this. This game just feels so disappointing. So much potential, so many missteps, and even the one thing that’s stayed consistent - the single player story - is… just not good. 
 

And yes, I know, Broadsword almost certainly isn’t going to be giving us more and we’re nearing the end of the current era and I just sit back and wonder what’s even left. 
 

Dunno. I’ve loved this game as a platform and I’ve spent 11 years of my life playing this. I’ve made great friends and I’ve made awesome stories doing my own RP with small communities, but… man. It just feels so hollow. 

[TonyTricicolo]

Not going to lie, I lost interest since we started Ossus.

[jedimasterjac]

1 minute ago, TonyTricicolo said:

Not going to lie, I lost interest since we started Ossus.

JUS was the last time I felt a bit of excitement with the story. I enjoy Jedi stuff, so I was fond of being able to visit the planet. It at least had a driving force, too, with the time pressure of the empire coming and everything. 

[eabevella]

1. Money.

2. Change the developer.

The art team is great. They create beautiful new maps.

I might complain a lot about the story, but I don't think the actual blame is on the current writer team.

The leader of this game dev has zero idea of what to do with the game. It's obvious by the "balance" of classes. Quick Travel tax that has zero positive impact to the inflation. The dreadful 7.0 gearing system that drove a lot of players away. Wasted whatever little resources they have on superficial things like the UI that even isn't a visual improvement. Higher up like this won't invest in a good story, and the writer can only do so much if the higher up demands them to drag the same old stale story for 20,000 years. They can't write 8 individual stories like the vanilla class stories even if they wants to. Heck, they can't even write 2 independent stories that complement each other like RotHC . They have no money and the higher up would rather have them write another irrelevant background story for another irrelevant GS Comp than actual interesting character focused stories.

Sadly, we got the second but not the first, so nothing will change, I'm afraid.

[OlBuzzard]

IMO  the story is developing just fine (in one sense of the word).
** A lot of details being filled in.
** Malgus is sitting unusually quiet (why?)
** Then there's the Mandos.  IMO all of this is connected.
** A LOT is going on!

IMO there is nothing wrong with any of this.  There have been a few moments that really did not add up.

Spoiler

Like the conversation between Dr. Oggurobb, Tau and alliance commander regarding the artifact.  [/facepalm].

Good grief!!!
I do agree that the stories need to reflect our individual classes again!  IMO that would be helpful.  EVEN as the Alliance commander a Jedi simply will not think (and probably react) in the same manner as someone with the background of Smuggler (who can be a bit of a rascal from time to time).  Taking that sort of thing into consideration when writing the various stories is what helped many folks to make that initial strong connection to the game in the first place.

My only concern is that will there be enough genuine support for SWTOR to allow ALL of these pieces of the puzzle to be finally put together!  IMO .. it can and should be.  ALSO .. (if done correctly) could easily set up a mystery for the next story line as well.

[jedimasterjac]

2 minutes ago, eabevella said:

I might complain a lot about the story, but I don't think the actual blame is on the current writer team.

I don’t think so, either. It all comes down to direction, and I think that’s where this game has always failed. 

[eabevella]

1 minute ago, OlBuzzard said:

IMO  the story is developing just fine (in one sense of the word).
** A lot of details being filled in.
** Malgus is sitting unusually quiet (why?)
** Then there's the Mandos.  IMO all of this is connected.
** A LOT is going on!

IMO there is nothing wrong with any of this.  There have been a few moments that really did not add up.

  Reveal hidden contents

Like the conversation between Dr. Oggurobb, Tau and alliance commander regarding the artifact.  [/facepalm].

Good grief!!!
I do agree that the stories need to reflect our individual classes again!  IMO that would be helpful.  EVEN as the Alliance commander a Jedi simply will not think (and probably react) in the same manner as someone with the background of Smuggler (who can be a bit of a rascal from time to time).  Taking that sort of thing into consideration when writing the various stories is what helped many folks to make that initial strong connection to the game in the first place.

My only concern is that will there be enough genuine support for SWTOR to allow ALL of these pieces of the puzzle to be finally put together!  IMO .. it can and should be.  ALSO .. (if done correctly) could easily set up a mystery for the next story line as well.

The lack of class specific dialogue is one thing I despise.

But is this the writer's fault? I don't think so.

If the higher up who decides "how this game should be" requires individualism for the same main story, the writer team will has to make it happen.

If the higher up doesn't care, of course the writer team will only write 1 generic story that only feature irrelevant jedi/sith specific dialogues AT BEST.

That's why I'm frustrated. They missed a lot of potential of keeping people interested but apparently spending resources on changing the UI is more important.

[OlBuzzard]

2 hours ago, eabevella said:

The lack of class specific dialogue is one thing I despise.

But is this the writer's fault? I don't think so.

If the higher up who decides "how this game should be" requires individualism for the same main story, the writer team will has to make it happen.

If the higher up doesn't care, of course the writer team will only write 1 generic story that only feature irrelevant jedi/sith specific dialogues AT BEST.

That's why I'm frustrated. They missed a lot of potential of keeping people interested but apparently spending resources on changing the UI is more important.

It still puzzles me to this day why a company so willingly throws away such a golden opportunity.  The only thing that comes to my mind is the possibility of the animosity between key people at the beginning of SWTOR... and WHO's idea the game really was.  In short EGO is the simplest and most logical answer.

BTW.. we are both on the same page!!

[/two thumbs up]

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

5 hours ago, jedimasterjac said:

I’ve been thinking about the game’s narrative arc and I’m just… really at a loss. There’s no thrust, no momentum. We bounce around to these random locations while accomplishing very little of note.
 

We’ve been following Malgus’s same vision of the galaxy on fire arguably since Deceived and at least since Onslaught in 2019… and we still literally only know that what he’s planning to do will set the galaxy on fire. 

Agreed in spades.

5 hours ago, jedimasterjac said:

We’ve abandoned our class stories and our factions, become the most powerful people in the galaxy, then lost our fleet and limped back to our factions. We’re back to being couriers but without any real identity.

That was one of the worst things they've ever done in this game story wise.

I've said it lots of times over the years. That we weren't allowed to serve our factions was a travesty.

Sithlords who couldn't serve the Sith Empire?

Jedi Knights and Republic Troopers that couldn't serve the the Republic?

Darksiders and Lightsiders, Mortal enemies working together?

What the hell is that?

I absolutely hated that. I never wanted the Alliance. I never wanted to lead a new faction.

Personally, and this is just my opinion, I wanted and still want to serve as a loyal soldier of the Empire. I don't have any problem with that. I don't have any issue with serving the leader of the Sith Empire. That is what I want. Player characters should never be the leader of a faction or ruler of the Galaxy. There's no where to go from there and leaders don't risk their lives and go on missions. But how can you play an MMO under those conditions. It never should have happened in the first place.

I'm fine with being the 'Darth Vader' of the story.

5 hours ago, jedimasterjac said:

The game’s devoted to a half dozen companions that they’ve also killed off, and they’ve tried to create new relationships by removing the old cast and slowly bringing them back and remixing who’s who, without any of the weight or the energy of the vanilla stories. 

It's great that we got some of the old companions back. What sucks is, we can't use them in the story. While I very much like Lana Beniko (and hate Theron), I don't necessarily want her to always be the main companion that does have a role in the story. I'd like to be able to choose the companion who plays a large part in the story. For me that choice would be Darkside Jaesa. Not only because she's my wife (I cheat on her at every given opportunity. I'm a Sith Lord, I should be able to have as many women as I want. Sithlords are selfish and greedy.)

We get letters from nobodies all the time, but no new content with our vanilla companions or our L.I.s unless our L.I.s are Lana or Theron.

I understand in this last update people who hadn't wacked Arcaan and had a romance with space <german dictator> got a little something with him.  But I think a majority of players probably wacked his dumb ass and rightly so.

5 hours ago, jedimasterjac said:

There’s no momentum. There’s no end point. We go round and round. Why does this game invest so heavily in cinematics, in conversations, in voiceover, when it fundamentally has nothing to say and nowhere to go? How does one even fix this?

The story does seem kinda pointless. There's no weight to it. Quite honestly, I'm sick as hell with Malgus. I don't like him. How many times do you have to kill someone before they get the message. He's no Darth Marr.

Given that he's not going to be forthcoming with any answers to our questions and that is blatantly obvious at this point. I see no reason why we should keep him alive at all. Sith aren't real big on keeping their enemies in prison. That's what Force Choke is for.

5 hours ago, jedimasterjac said:

At this point I don’t know how you save anything without a reboot, but how can you reboot or relaunch or restart when you’ve invested so much into perpetually circling the drain?

I don't necessarily think a reboot is necessary. I certainly wouldn't want one. You solve this by creating a new story that has substance and direction. End these present story line strings definitively and move on to a new set of circumstances entirely.

But, let's face it, we've been getting so little story these last years anyways, it isn't the story that's keeping this game going.

But, if they want to a resurgence of this game, if that's in consideration, a new strong story is probably the only way that's going to happen.

I've been playing the game over 10 years now, and I love the game, but mostly out of nostalgia at this point. But, I do find myself getting bored at times as there is only so many times you can do the same exact stuff ad nauseam. Quite honestly the only thing that really ever gets me pumped for the game is when they introduce new gear. I love grinding for new gear.

A sentiment that isn't shared by many if the forums are any indication.

I agree with what Ol Buzzard said. They really need to make some nuisances in the game that are class related, even if just in some small ways. I'd be very happy even if they did a difference by faction at this point.

Edited June 16, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[TonyTricicolo]

I am probably butchering this paraphrase but I think James Ohlen said a long time ago in an interview that retrospectively speaking he sort of regrets taking on Swtor because there is way too much permission asking and approval needed to get anything done. He much rather preferred working on Bioware original IPs because they had sole control so to speak. That doesn't excuse the direction the game went over the years but to me it sounds like there was never really any love put in to this game. I'm sure there were plenty of enthusiastic people ready to take on the challenge of a Star Wars game but you can see how spirits can damper when you don't have real control. 

[farren_whyde]

It doesn't matter if the story is small, you can still make it interesting.

Unfortunately, they went the 'epic' galaxy-wide threat route... With no personal stakes in the story. Unless you're the Jedi Knight, or maybe the Wrath.

The 8 original class stories were the foundation of the game. That they decided to destabilise.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

47 minutes ago, farren_whyde said:

It doesn't matter if the story is small, you can still make it interesting.

Unfortunately, they went the 'epic' galaxy-wide threat route... With no personal stakes in the story. Unless you're the Jedi Knight, or maybe the Wrath.

The 8 original class stories were the foundation of the game. That they decided to destabilise.

If you gotta give Bioware credit for something, it's really gotta be the vanilla story lines. They did an outstanding job with them.

The only downside to them is that they just didn't last long enough. But, even if they lasted 6 months, it still wouldn't be long enough.  That's what alot of players are craving. That kind of story content. But, that's just not possible in the long term.

The vanilla story lines spoiled us.

Edited June 16, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Ardrossan]

1 hour ago, TonyTricicolo said:

I am probably butchering this paraphrase but I think James Ohlen said a long time ago in an interview that retrospectively speaking he sort of regrets taking on Swtor because there is way too much permission asking and approval needed to get anything done. He much rather preferred working on Bioware original IPs because they had sole control so to speak. That doesn't excuse the direction the game went over the years but to me it sounds like there was never really any love put in to this game. I'm sure there were plenty of enthusiastic people ready to take on the challenge of a Star Wars game but you can see how spirits can damper when you don't have real control. 

To be fair I would hate to be a star wars writer and having to submit stuff to Lucas. Not sure if they still have to do that though.

I don't blame them for that part, or even not liking this IP in general. A lot of people play this game because "it's star wars" lol I play this game despite it being star wars, a lot of the dumbest story stuff even in the vanilla class stories exists because of the star wars setting and we're just stuck with cliched conventions. The Malgus storyline is boring but imps vs rebels is baked into the IP like Horde vs Alliance in WoW, and temporary alliances like in SoR and KOTFE were just an excuse to return to previously defeated villains, which is, again, baked into the IP. Few star wars writers have been able to come up with something as original as a Thrawn or a Kreia. Often when trying to something new, they end up with the Yuuzhan Vong or The Last Jedi (or for SWTOR, Iokath), which just polarizes fans.

5 hours ago, eabevella said:

The leader of this game dev has zero idea of what to do with the game. It's obvious by the "balance" of classes. Quick Travel tax that has zero positive impact to the inflation. The dreadful 7.0 gearing system that drove a lot of players away. Wasted whatever little resources they have on superficial things like the UI that even isn't a visual improvement. Higher up like this won't invest in a good story, and the writer can only do so much if the higher up demands them to drag the same old stale story for 20,000 years. They can't write 8 individual stories like the vanilla class stories even if they wants to. Heck, they can't even write 2 independent stories that complement each other like RotHC . They have no money and the higher up would rather have them write another irrelevant background story for another irrelevant GS Comp than actual interesting character focused stories.

Sadly, we got the second but not the first, so nothing will change, I'm afraid.

I blame them 100% for this, especially the bolded part.

[jedimasterjac]

1 hour ago, farren_whyde said:

The 8 original class stories were the foundation of the game. That they decided to destabilise.

Unfortunately I think 8 stories was untenable even if the game had been the success they’d hoped — that’s a lot to juggle. 

[KyraMalakai]

I think at this point the least they could do would be giving us two different stories for empire and republic instead of being the exact same thing with a different winner like what just happend on 7.3 some more actual control from the player would also be nice like saying "no" to a certain mandalorian.

[jedimasterjac]

1 minute ago, KyraMalakai said:

I think at this point the least they could do would be giving us two different stories for empire and republic instead of being the exact same thing with a different winner like what just happend on 7.3 some more actual control from the player would also be nice like saying "no" to a certain mandalorian.

I think it would be helpful if they dropped the saboteur stuff. It’s over complicating the  story in a way that we can all, hopefully by now, tell is never really going to pay off. Just give us two real storylines. 

[KyraMalakai]

4 minutes ago, jedimasterjac said:

I think it would be helpful if they dropped the saboteur stuff. It’s over complicating the  story in a way that we can all, hopefully by now, tell is never really going to pay off. Just give us two real storylines. 

I agree, I am sure many would be pissed but the truth is some believed they could actually switch sides which is not the case. If only they would focus on doing those two..

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

22 minutes ago, jedimasterjac said:

I think it would be helpful if they dropped the saboteur stuff. It’s over complicating the  story in a way that we can all, hopefully by now, tell is never really going to pay off. Just give us two real storylines. 

Again, agreed in spades.

Naturally, you will have players that would get unhinged at that.

But, if we have to make a sacrifice so that we could get at least some minor differentiation in story lines at least reflecting the faction difference, which quite honestly should be an essential here, I say it's worth it.

The saboteur stuff is never going to amount to any more than just that. It's called a saboteur story line for a reason, they never said anything about actually defecting to the best of my knowledge.

I can't see how it's better this way.

Edited June 16, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Ardrossan]

36 minutes ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

Again, agreed in spades.

Naturally, you will have players that would get unhinged at that.

But, if we have to make a sacrifice so that we could get at least some minor differentiation in story lines at least reflecting the faction difference, which quite honestly should be an essential here, I say it's worth it.

The saboteur stuff is never going to amount to any more than just that. It's called a saboteur story line for a reason, they never said anything about actually defecting to the best of my knowledge.

But how do they drop it in a way that makes sense? I agree players will get unhinged if they offer anything less that total faction swap. It's just going to suck if the options turn out to be:

a) Jonas: "Commander you've done everything we've asked but now I'm going to do a word for word repeat of that scene from IA Chapter 2 finale and dump you for no reason haha nothing in endgame is original omg!"

b) Bioware: 7.4 will feature more irrelevant sidequests featuring your least favorite companions, convoluted, mob heavy planets you don't care about and story which doesn't move the plot forward. The saboteur plot will finally be wrapped up in 7.5...which our new friends at Broadsword are excited to be given the opportunity to implement. Take it away, guys!

Edited June 17, 2023 by Ardrossan

[jedimasterjac]

25 minutes ago, Ardrossan said:

But how do they drop it in a way that makes sense? I agree players will get unhinged if they offer anything less that total faction swap. It's just going to suck if the options turn out to be:

a) Jonas: "Commander you've done everything we've asked but now I'm going to do a word for word repeat of that scene from IA Chapter 2 finale and dump you for no reason haha nothing in endgame is original omg!"

b) Bioware: 7.4 will feature more irrelevant sidequests featuring your least favorite companions, convoluted, mob heavy planets you don't care about and story which doesn't move the plot forward. The saboteur plot will finally be wrapped up in 7.5...which our new friends at Broadsword are excited to be given the opportunity to implement. Take it away, guys!

Yeah. I just… don’t see a way out for any of this. 

[OlBuzzard]

2 hours ago, jedimasterjac said:

Yeah. I just… don’t see a way out for any of this. 

Welll ... there IS one way!  Something similar to KorFE or FFXIV (well the events leading up to it) ...  Malgus is right... (at least partially).  Everything is fried (but not as Malgus expects) .. EVERYTHING !!  Poof ..  !

Game reset??  Story line reset??

At the least a cataclysmic event takes place as a result of the holocron that they are messing with ... and maybe an unknown entity shows up (It could even be the emperor returning with a vengeance).   Amazingly (somehow) select personnel / places manage to survive.  It essentially could make Nathema and Ziost look like child's play.  

In essence this creates a tabula rasa (with select items preserved)

(I kind of doubt that they would pull a Bob Newheart).

Edited June 17, 2023 by OlBuzzard

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

3 hours ago, Ardrossan said:

But how do they drop it in a way that makes sense? I agree players will get unhinged if they offer anything less that total faction swap. It's just going to suck if the options turn out to be:

a) Jonas: "Commander you've done everything we've asked but now I'm going to do a word for word repeat of that scene from IA Chapter 2 finale and dump you for no reason haha nothing in endgame is original omg!"

b) Bioware: 7.4 will feature more irrelevant sidequests featuring your least favorite companions, convoluted, mob heavy planets you don't care about and story which doesn't move the plot forward. The saboteur plot will finally be wrapped up in 7.5...which our new friends at Broadsword are excited to be given the opportunity to implement. Take it away, guys!

A valid consideration to be sure, one for which I honestly don't have a good answer for.

What I can say for sure, and unfortunately I can't provide the source, as it's admittedly from a very long time ago, from very early on in the game, the Devs did say that they would never introduce a faction switch option.

Ironically enough, a full faction switch would provide the solution to dropping the saboteur story line. heh

But just because they said that in the past doesn't actually mean they couldn't change their minds on that, but I don't think there's much hope for that.

There's actually a string going on right now about the idea of faction switching and arguments for and against going on right now.

https://forums.swtor.com/topic/930007-changing-sides-done-wright/#comment-9765385

Edited June 17, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[eabevella]

There is one way to make Saboteur works: make them defect for real ffs.

It's impossible for the current team due to the amount of thoughts and efforts to make it actually work.

1. Faction tabs: Saboteur will have 2 tabs. Old faction tag so they have access to the pre-defection faction specific stuffs on pre-defection planets. New faction tag so they have access to the post-defection stuffs on post-defecton planets - or new planet area (Interpreter's Retreat vs Voss).

2. Access to raids: I raid with my Imp side story main. If I defect to the Pub side, it means my raid team lost their heal and I lost my prog team. A possible compromise is to let the Saboteur has access to guild chat every where despite the guild's faction, access to in-game chat on either factions depending on where they are (see 1), and maybe access to both fleets and join raids on both sides. This is big trouble and will be a mess to code the more you think about it.

It's not impossible, but it's too much for a develop team that doesn't (or can't) care about doing anything meaningful to the game.

[Whykara]

4 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

It could even be the emperor returning with a vengeance

Somehow Valkorion returned... Again! For the fourth time! 

[TziganeNZ]

10 minutes ago, Whykara said:

Somehow Valkorion returned... Again! For the fourth time! 

Omg please no.....let the dead STAY dead!!