7.3 Credit Economy Initiative: Updates and the GTN

[MasterRikku]

6 minutes ago, jedimasterjac said:

Completely defeats the point of the tax. Now if you want to do a high value trade, you just join the same guild, do the trade, and then /gquit. It's a very obviously easy system to violate.

Your tone is insane and abrasive and you need to take a deep breath, man.

As a guild leader, just my last CQ send out of items/prizes would have been cost of the Tax would have over 500mil just based on the avg GTN prices, So chill out. Calling someone insane that may have different ideas/opinions sounds not civil. 

I said 

Quote

Needs to be between guild members white names not grey names

To become a White name guild member you must be in the guild before the weekly CQ reset. Example you join the guild Friday you will need to stay in the guild tell Tuedays CQ reset to become a white name to fall into my example tax exempt. Your defense is just join a guild trade the high item the quit. (Join guild today, trade today, leave today) You still have the 8% tax as a grey named member. Its a lot of effort to just join a random guild (to become a white guild member) and wait a day or up to 7 days to just do a trade for a high price item.

 

[CrazyScruffy]

15 minutes ago, MasterRikku said:

As a guild leader, just my last CQ send out of items/prizes would have been cost of the Tax would have over 500mil just based on the avg GTN prices, So chill out. Calling someone insane that may have different ideas/opinions sounds not civil. 

I said 

To become a White name guild member you must be in the guild before the weekly CQ reset. Example you join the guild Friday you will need to stay in the guild tell Tuedays CQ reset to become a white name to fall into my example tax exempt. Your defense is just join a guild trade the high item the quit. (Join guild today, trade today, leave today) You still have the 8% tax as a grey named member. Its a lot of effort to just join a random guild (to become a white guild member) and wait a day or up to 7 days to just do a trade for a high price item.

 

It is good to have different ideas and opinions. But people will absolutely abuse this system. It is not a lot of effort especially if you just have a toon made for trades (and doesn't effect any of your main ones). Their solution is probably the best one they have. And hopefully the amount of tax paid will decrease as prices go down. Or you'll just need to limit how many items/prizes you give out

[phalczen]

6 hours ago, JoeStramaglia said:

1. If you are sending items or mail between your own characters there will not be any additional assessed fees currently. Receivers of items and credits will not pay a fee.

 

 

 

2. Lore/Naming

Yeah, when we talk about these things out of character a lot it makes sense to refer to these as “taxes”, but the more appropriate name for them is Fees. The GTN has Commission Fees, the Mail and Trade will be Transaction Fees. So while we might use them interchangeably they will be displayed in game as those names!

Regarding point #1, which I brought up, great news!

Regarding point #2, wasn't the whole brouhaha in Episode 1 Phantom Menace about the "taxation of trade routes"?  So, taxes are definitely in lore.

[CrazyScruffy]

5 minutes ago, phalczen said:

Regarding point #1, which I brought up, great news!

Regarding point #2, wasn't the whole brouhaha in Episode 1 Phantom Menace about the "taxation of trade routes"?  So, taxes are definitely in lore.

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that Taxes are canon or in lore. They're point is that in this case the appropriate name for them is Fees, which I fully agree with

[LLlaxmep]

this tax should only apply to transactions during which credits change hands. in what fracked up world, even an imagined one,  people are not able to give stuff to others for free? when one's giving around medpacks and stims to their ops members they should NOT be taxed for that. period.

[thoughtfix]

7 hours ago, JoeStramaglia said:

Can We Remove the Quick Travel Costs?

We do need small sinks in the game just like large ones.

Why?

I believe the goals should be a balance of "make the game fun and accessible to everyone, regardless of time played" and "keep inflation under control."  Small credit sinks that cost the same for a lvl 5 character returning to the Jedi Temple as for a lvl 80 multi-billionaire are not equal.  That lvl 5 character will be fast-traveling a lot more on any given planet to run quests and turn them in. The lvl 80 multi-billionaire... how often do they fast-travel per play session? When you run analytics of the fast travel money collection, make sure you do a comparison of "credits collected compared to credits earned." What you won't get from this is the analytics of how often users choose to skip quick travel when they otherwise would have. Those users are spending more time on speeders and taxis, reducing the amount of time they can spend enjoying the game.

5k for a trip across Nar Shaddaa is silly for the lvl 20 characters who will spend the most time on that planet. It only serves to delay how long it takes for them to participate in the player-driven economy. If you must keep small credit sinks, at least scale it to the character's progress.

Think of this:  it's possible for a city to increase revenue by increasing fuel tax. Wealthy people will grumble, but pay it. People with less wealth will have to choose between paying it, taking the bus (and a dramatically less enjoyable or convenient and more time consuming part of their day) or choosing between driving or a high quality meal later in the week. Now who are the biggest contributors of inflation?

Edited May 5, 2023 by thoughtfix
Expanded reply

[jedimasterjac]

1 hour ago, MasterRikku said:

 Calling someone insane that may have different ideas/opinions sounds not civil. 

Notice that my critique wasn’t about your opinions. You’re making all these weird threats about the paychecks of devs and how they will soon be unemployed over their tax on a digital currency, and I’m the one who’s not civil, somehow. 

[Vanechka]

Increasing the Cap at the GTN should be the last thing to be done. If this is increased the traders (Scalpers) will continue to do what they are doing. They are a great part of this inflation problem. They put items at the GTN at crazy prices not even the GTN can handle, forcing players to opt-in for quick cash (Credit Farmers) bringing more unwanted credits into the system.

New players can't buy almost anything from GTN. 

-Taxing in-person trading sounds great, The CAP for this should be REDUCED to no more than 500 MIL at the time if not, lower. This will discourage scalpers from trading goods under the table. Keep it at the GTN. Who the hell needs 500 MIL credits in a trade? This is insane. (It should not affect Legacy trade).

-To unlock the 7th Legacy cargo tab costs 4 Million or 750 CCs. This should be the value of the Cartel coins. If I spend 750 cartel coins, I should be able to make 4 million. Right now, I can buy an item for 250 CC and be able to sell it at the GTN for 850 MIL. This is where the problem is. Don't raise the cap at the GTN, this will fix nothing. Rules need to be applied to discourage scalpers to continue their feast.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Vanechka

[microstyles]

8 hours ago, Char_Ell said:

Maybe somebody can explain why they think adding credit fee for barter-only transactions makes sense.

Bioware is planning a lot of changes that make trading with credits more costly and annoying. The biggest risk to these changes is players switching to a barter economy to avoid losing value. The item fees are intended to prevent this. 

7 hours ago, LLlaxmep said:

so, i skimmed through the messages here, and, forgive me if i'm missing something, but will i have to pay a bloody tax when i give away the augs i crafted for my guildmates now?

All we know right now is the fees will apply to "some items". Bioware may not have even decided which ones yet.

[Char_Ell]

19 minutes ago, microstyles said:

Bioware is planning a lot of changes that make trading with credits more costly and annoying. The biggest risk to these changes is players switching to a barter economy to avoid losing value. The item fees are intended to prevent this. 

To be clear, in a barter trade only items are exchanged, not credits.  So if Player A wants to trade 5 Ultimate Cartel Packs to Player B for an armor set or some other item how does that adversely impact the credit economy when no credits are exchanged?  I honestly do not foresee much of a threat that barter trades will increase so much as to cause the GTN to become an insignificant marketplace just because people want to avoid the GTN tax.  The chief reason players are avoiding the GTN tax at present is because they want to sell items for more than 1 billion credits per transaction and the GTN won't allow it, not because they are trying to "avoid losing value."

[DWho]

5 minutes ago, Char_Ell said:

To be clear, in a barter trade only items are exchanged, not credits.  So if Player A wants to trade 5 Ultimate Cartel Packs to Player B for an armor set or some other item how does that adversely impact the credit economy when no credits are exchanged?

It creates an alternate currency (or "black market" if you will) that devalues the credits even more driving prices up further. Which moves even more things off the GTN and reduces the only effective credit sink in the game even further.

Edited May 6, 2023 by DWho

[microstyles]

2 hours ago, Char_Ell said:

I honestly do not foresee much of a threat that barter trades will increase so much as to cause the GTN to become an insignificant marketplace just because people want to avoid the GTN tax. 

If the fees are reasonable you're probably right. If the players decide the fees are too high and want to avoid them, they may devise an alternate currency item. If that happens the credit price of that currency item will skyrocket, lowering the value of credits while raising the value of that item. If the credit cost of that item gets too high, players will abandon using credits and just use that item. This is all still possible even with bioware's item fees since they won't apply to all items.

A lot of ifs, I know. It probably won't happen unless the fees are really brutal. 

2 hours ago, Char_Ell said:

The chief reason players are avoiding the GTN tax at present is because they want to sell items for more than 1 billion credits per transaction and the GTN won't allow it, not because they are trying to "avoid losing value."

That's true, but the progressive tax may change that if the top end of the bracket is too punishing.

[LucifersDrache]

Just my pennies ...

• What do you like about how the GTN currently functions?

I like having it at all. selling on the whole server is  good thing, yes it is

• What do you dislike about how the GTN currently functions?

More displayed Items please, eight  isn't that much - maybe in preferences a GNT tab ; select number of displayed / found items.  Especially with many results its hard to fix the search so that only the wanted items are displayed.

BTW: this goes for the character selection on a server/s, too.  But at that point you can improve MANY Points,  starting from parallel programming up to ... well, just ask me, its not the topic here

• Is there anything you wish you could do on the GTN that you cannot do currently?

Selling on ALL servers might be nice to bring all server to the same price level, which might be lower than.  Like the login server an additional server for GTN  only, but than for all ?

• Are there any specific filters, searches, or ways of finding items you particularly like or that you wish existed?

a NOT is missing : I wanna find all zakuul knight armor sets but NOT the officers one

a search for a character is missing : I want to find all items, Humptibumpty is selling.

• What kinds of information do you use to decide when to make a purchase? If you could have more information what would you want?

Well, a statistic about the prices  (max, min, maybe a little grafics 😉 ) for that item over the last three month (?)  might be helpful to decide to buy or not to buy ...

 

I hope, I could gave you some little inspiration for your future improvements of the GTN.

Thanks for asking us.

[AdsAillard]

16 hours ago, CrazyScruffy said:

LOL well that wasn't how it was planned.

 

hopefully they'll figure something out for Guilds. But i could see a case where new guilds are made just to circumvent any Fees

Well, that is kinda why I suggested the guildship perk - guildship perks can and are associated with guild level & with certain costs that need actual activity & investiment to get to it; not to mention a certain number of subscribing users. As long as it requires a high enough level, it should discourage guilds that are not "real", just fee circumvention. If they wanna go and get their guild to, say, 250+ level to unlock it and run it for 3 of every 4 weeks, well, I'd say that is showing dedication enough to earn it... 

(I put in a reasonably random guild level, I have no idea how easy or hard it is to get to 250; but you get my meaning)

[AdsAillard]

15 hours ago, The-Kaitou-Kid said:

 

Part of the problem here is you went with distance as the only scaling factor and seemingly forgot that a lot of the early game planets, where players generally have less credits and are rewarded with less credits, are very large compared to later game planets. Coruscant is a great example. Going from pretty much anywhere (minus maybe the first area) back to the Senate tower, a common occurrence during the class stories that take place there and a prime use case for QT, is 5k credits, because the planet is large, by design. Nar Shaddaa is a very similar situation. These are two of the earliest planets in the game, with QT fees higher than what you'd see on the most recent planet released (Ruhnuk, where taxis are actually more expensive than QT, because they take more than distance into consideration during scaling and Ruhnuk is a small planet).

SO MUCH THIS.

It's particularly grating when you have planets as mentioned - NS, Coruscant - where you simply *can't* even run through the map. You're hostage to either QT-ing or taking a taxi, every time. And paying for either, frankly, is absurd - I'm paying for the way the game was designed, and in case of Coruscant it's even *worse*, as it's equivalent, DK, can be run through without using anything meaning new players on imp-side get to save more credits.

Then it turns frankly ridiculous in Zakuul, where you don't even have "public" transport between Swamps & city areas, and I have to pay 5k to move between the two places - while going from fleet into Zakuul I'm only paying 3.6k. So, basically, it's more expansive moving inside the planet than coming into it... Makes no sense.

On fleet, if I don't pay for taxi, I probably shouldn't pay such an absurd amount for qt either. 

[jedimasterjac]

24 minutes ago, AdsAillard said:

I'm paying for the way the game was designed, and in case of Coruscant it's even *worse*, as it's equivalent, DK, can be run through without using anything meaning new players on imp-side get to save more credits.

You’re talking about a couple of thousands in taxi fees at best. Any player that’s questing is not going to notice the amount taken out to taxi through Coruscant. 

[AdsAillard]

40 minutes ago, jedimasterjac said:

You’re talking about a couple of thousands in taxi fees at best. Any player that’s questing is not going to notice the amount taken out to taxi through Coruscant. 

... And does that make it any less unequal?

Mind you, I've been playing for years, so, normally I wouldn't notice. However, having rolled a lowbie on several servers in which I have no legacy and no structure, I can see how much of a hassle everything is when you're starting out. Honestly, not having a legacy on the German server kills me, I would love to have some rocket boots or mount from lvl 1, alas... Everything takes so much time when you're starting out, and you absolutely feel every credit this early on.

[Darcmoon]

1 hour ago, AdsAillard said:

Then it turns frankly ridiculous in Zakuul, where you don't even have "public" transport between Swamps & city areas, and I have to pay 5k to move between the two places - while going from fleet into Zakuul I'm only paying 3.6k. So, basically, it's more expansive moving inside the planet than coming into it... Makes no sense.

 

There actually is a taxi between the city and swamp areas.  It is just to the side of where you zone in from when you go to Zakuul from the galaxy map.

[jedimasterjac]

20 minutes ago, AdsAillard said:

Everything takes so much time when you're starting out, and you absolutely feel every credit this early on.

I guess I just have a hard time feeling that crush.

I mean, if we’re talking about desirable cosmetics, sure. 

But when it comes to taxis? I remember having to buy abilities with every level, having to buy sprint, basically going broke to get a speeder (on Tatooine, at level 25!) and I have a hard time feeling like the cost of a taxi on Coruscant is too much in that context. 

[starbuckone]

On 5/1/2023 at 10:44 AM, JoeStramaglia said:

Hello everyone! I’m Joe Stramaglia and I’m a Systems Designer on Star Wars: the Old Republic. Today I am bringing you some of our planned changes for the Credit Economy coming in 7.3 and giving you a hint at some of the changes in the pipeline. 

First off, I want to say thanks to everyone who provided constructive feedback to our initial changes we introduced in 7.2.1. We’re reading your feedback and looking at data for each phase of these releases as we want to be careful and considerate of each change’s effect. The changes we introduced in 7.2.1 were smaller scale than the ones we’ll be introducing in 7.3 and the upcoming patches, but no one change is looking to solve every problem. They each have a specific intention related to our goals that were shared in that previous post.

When we open up 7.3 content on the PTS, players will be able to see the following adjustments:

• We’re retiring the Tax Evasion Guild Perk, it will no longer be available in future rotations.
• Secure Trade, Mail, and Collect on Deposit will now have an associated transaction fee based on the value of the transaction. The fee is aligned to the Galactic Trade Network Commission Fee at 8%.
• Some items will adjust the value of a transaction when transferred via Trade, Mail, and COD and will be subject to the same fee.
• Many items will have adjusted Vendor sale values.

These changes are largely motivated around reducing GTN tax avoidance and adjusting credit inflow from item sales. However we’ve got a suite of changes that rely on these coming in our next phase, which I am going to reveal a little bit earlier as there will be further adjustments to these numbers as a result.

We’re actively exploring a complete overhaul of our Galactic Trade Network system! This will include a lot of things I cannot talk about yet as they will come after 7.3 but am very excited to reveal soon. Make sure you check out our livestream on May 3rd at 1pm CT / 6pm UTC and follow here on the forums for more information as we get closer.

When this overhaul happens we’re going to be converting the GTN Commission Fee to a Progressive Tax starting lower than our current fees but reaching a higher threshold than our current fees. The exact numbers will be released at a later time, but the Transaction Fees implemented in Secure Trade, Mail, and COD are a flat tax meant to mirror the highest bracket in the GTN to encourage using the network. Whenever Taxes are updated in the GTN those changes will be applied accordingly here as well.
 

We want the Galactic Trade Network to be the premier place for trade. Given we’re exploring the GTN as a place to improve the experience and make participating in our player market more enjoyable for everyone, we'd like to get your feedback on the current state of the GTN in terms of usability.

• What do you like about how the GTN currently functions?
• What do you dislike about how the GTN currently functions?
• Is there anything you wish you could do on the GTN that you cannot do currently?
• Are there any specific filters, searches, or ways of finding items you particularly like or that you wish existed?
• What kinds of information do you use to decide when to make a purchase? If you could have more information what would you want?

It’s important to note that the changes we’re currently planning are going to take place over multiple phases and releases so not all changes will come online at once. We look forward to sharing the current plans and taking your feedback into account!

May the Force be with you
 

The only way to fix the economy is by setting a credit cap for subscribers say 10 billion as well as setting a credit cap on player to player transfers/trades. Changing the cap on the GTN solves nothing since F2P has a 1M cap and Subs at this point are unlimited hence the credit farmer/seller problem Bioware ignores and has failed to deal with

[KAFordwars]

So, I'm just going to throw our my solution to FIX, permanently, the GTN Inflation issue.  It's actually very simple...

 

Every item in this game, and I do mean EVERY item to include everything on the Cartel Market, should be available to purchase IN-GAME, from a Vendor, with IN-GAME money.

The main part of this is that SWTOR need to raise their prices, A LOT. 

Example:

- You can buy a Black/Black Dye in game, from a vendor, for 200 Million Credits (just making up a number here)

- Now, any Black/Black Dyes on the GTN will have to stay BELOW that price, or you just buy it from the vendor.

So the game Vendors are, in essence, setting the cap for sales prices.  GTN sales will become about becoming competitive in selling prices.

___________________

"What about the Cartel Market, and all the money SWTOR makes from that?"

They don't have to give that up, they can still have a Cartel Market.  NEW items could be Cartel Market exclusive for a set amount of time (6 months), before moving to the game vendors.  So those that want to have these items First, or don't feel like waiting can still use Cartel Coins to get them.

Older items can remain both on the Cartel Market and the In-Game vendors/GTN, allowing players to continue to have the choice of currency.

___________________

"Yea Sure, but what about Credit Farmers?  People will just go buy Credits from wherever"!

If this happened, and people began rushing out to buy credits, the massive spike in demand, would result in a massive drop in supply, causing credit farming prices to increase and might actually make the option less viable due to the increased price...or it might not.  Who knows.

 

The most important part of this would be in SWTOR setting of vendor prices.  The in-game costs would need to be in line with the current Cartel Coin value, and they would need to greatly INFLATE the vendor costs to make it a good Last Resort, but not the best First Option.  You want people to buy from GTN, but vendor availability will ensure prices never get beyond reason.

Edited May 6, 2023 by KAFordwars

[thoughtfix]

4 hours ago, KAFordwars said:

- You can buy a Black/Black Dye in game, from a vendor, for 200 Million Credits (just making up a number here)

That's the opposite I've seen. Items available from vendors are usually posted on the GTN for 10-500% more than vendor prices because they're preying on people who don't know which vendor to find the item. How about this: Making certain vendor-provided crafting mats expensive and recipes hard to get, but allowing items on the GTN (especially dyes and certain gear) to be crafted. That way, GTN dyes (and certain other cosmetics) are available in-game for enough work and still can be sold. This will curb the "pay to win at the economy" so people don't feel like they have to pay real money to sell things on the GTN just to have enough money to participate in the game economy. It's not directly removing the possible revenue from Bioware (people can still skip all the work in leveling professions and collecting materials). Still, those who contribute to the game and invest in their characters can get GTN recipes and craft previously GTN-only items.

4 hours ago, KAFordwars said:

NEW items could be Cartel Market exclusive for a set amount of time (6 months), before moving to the game vendors. 

Alternately, items can cycle in and out of the GTN with a surprise on which items will go into the GTN and when. Sale prices should be unpredictable too. That way, the developers can discourage people from speculating and price manipulation by making speculative buying less predictable and profitable. GTN sales should be frequent, more interesting, and less predictable anyway. Those items don't need to leave the GTN entirely.

 

[thoughtfix]

I think I mentioned this one in another thread among a list of other ideas, but I'm going to pop it out to a separate single post:

Create a vendor in the game who is so Force-attuned that she is able to extend bonds from players to family. She charges a ton of credits and allows certain "bound" items to transition to "Legacy bound."

It's a credit sink. It doesn't add new items to the game. It doesn't interfere with player-to-player trade. It just allows one player to use an item they already have but on an alt. You can even transition it to a kind of "Bind on equip + Legacy bound" that makes it bind to the next character (who can only be of the same legacy) on use. Name her "Liberare" (It's Latin)

[Toraak]

On 5/5/2023 at 11:36 AM, ebcbrakes said:

the only people that would leave are the greedy idiots that are driving up all the prices 10, 000% just so they can hit credit cap , when there is no need for that amount , but i knew overly rich people would say it was stupid isea and you proved me right

 

This is nonsense right here. People that put in Time and Effort to get what they acquired (and earned) whether by crafting or spending RL $ on the CM shouldn't lose what they got fairly, just because some random person on the forums think they should just reduce the cap on credits.

 

If I played for 10+ years, and got my credits from hard work crafting all these years I put in a lot of work to get them. Just because you think I may be greedy if I leave is wrong. I'd leave because your idea means all that time I spent is wasted outright because your idea just removed a lot of work I had put into the game.

 

The cap is fine as it is, however what BW is doing with the 7.3 changes will definitely help the economy. Reducing the credit cap won't be needed, because prices will come down. (As we've already seen prices drop with the repair cost change that BW has already done).

[TahliahCOH]

On 5/5/2023 at 1:09 AM, Sanchpanza said:

No offense, but that isn't accurate at all. I started a new character from scratch and by the time they were on Voss they had well over 1M from selling junk, doing some heroics here and there, and doing a handful of FPs on the way. Every mission I'd quick travel back to the nearest point and speeder it, and when I was done with the planet I'd go all the way back to the start if needed (like Hoth, for example).

The prices are a bit steep when you very first start, and that definitely needs to be addressed as it can cause problems. But you don't need to play the market and you get more than enough credits to quick travel to the nearest speeder.

Gosh, no offense taken at all. But you are kind of making my point. Rather than using Quick Travel to expediate things (like Bounty week), we are consciously choosing to QT to the nearest speeder adn then use that instead of just using our perk (which we paid for and upgraded). This is stupid (not you are stupid or I am, since I do the same thing now), but the game making it less appealing to do stuff (events, like Bounty week, for a prime example). I am not running 10 toons through daily bounties simply because it takes too long now (not costs too much; honestly, I don't care if I get all the creds back, it's the idea and reality of having to pay for Quick Travel that chaps my hide 😛 ).