How PVP in its current state is driving away new potential players

[Varcado]

On 4/28/2023 at 1:16 PM, Prapcaster said:

Do you understand what an mmo is?

easy just make a bracket for people who want to pvp vs other groups and then leave casuals to queue alone.

[Prapcaster]

50 minutes ago, Varcado said:

easy just make a bracket for people who want to pvp vs other groups and then leave casuals to queue alone.

They did have that. And the casuals cried about it for 9 straight years until they removed it.

[krackcommando]

On 4/27/2023 at 4:33 PM, Prapcaster said:

the "content creators" gearing guides just confuse them even more because they're always extremely long winded instead of just telling them to go from point A to point B.

swtorista is sooo sloooow. I don't think i've ever finished a video. usually I know 90% of the content and cannot sit still long enough to parse that 10% I pressed play for. 😆

[Varcado]

29 minutes ago, Prapcaster said:

They did have that. And the casuals cried about it for 9 straight years until they removed it.

right so now the elitist are rolling casuals that just wanna enjoy casual pvp and making it unplayable which would drive new potential players away.

[TrixxieTriss]

4 hours ago, Prapcaster said:

They did have that. And the casuals cried about it for 9 straight years until they removed it.

What are you referring too?

[Prapcaster]

1 hour ago, TrixxieTriss said:

What are you referring too?

Ranked. It was the seperate queue that's severely missed now. There were rarely issue of 8 mans ever being on the same team and certainly not in 4v4. Better pvpers who queued for ranked were trolled and harrassed then and they are now too. People were posting how mad they were that the ranked players didn't leave the game when ranked left.

5 hours ago, Varcado said:

right so now the elitist are rolling casuals that just wanna enjoy casual pvp and making it unplayable which would drive new potential players away.

I think you need to look up the definition of elitist. An elitist isn't someone that's better then new players. An elitist is someone who's condescending to new players and gatekeeps certain areas of the game. That's not what premades are. Stop throiwing around empty insults to make yourself feel better please

5 hours ago, krackcommando said:

swtorista is sooo sloooow. I don't think i've ever finished a video. usually I know 90% of the content and cannot sit still long enough to parse that 10% I pressed play for. 😆

I used to like her a lot until I read up on how she treats other content creators on reddit. It's really sad because there's more then enough views to go around.

[hunKAIn]

I am a relatively new swtor player, who enjoys/ed both pvp and pve in games, and tries to push both.

Being matched against a well-organized heavy team as a filler for the other side who are kinda just grouped up to "have fun", is definitely a feeling that drives me away from this game. Technically, 1 game out of 3 is "not fun", which can even end up 3/3 if you simply requeue after your loss and face the same premade.

When I don't have a premade team, I don't want to be the filler for either the winner or the loser team. I don't care if I have to wait 30 mins for the queue to pop for a full-solo game. When I join with premade, then yeah.. still not the best feeling to lose against such team on rampage, but at least the circumstances could be egal.

Maybe an option of "Yes, I am fine to join a game of premades" would help.

In MMOs, once I am done with the content I tend to do mostly pvp (maybe alts). So, when I experience such sh.ty pvp matchmaking as swtor's it's usually a much simpler decision for me to abandon the game, as it's clear that once I am done with the content I won't have fun anymore. Yet, the story is so cool here that it makes me stay... I am just afraid that the matchmaking problem is rather a population problem, and not just a poorly designed algorithm that they can tweak. Also, pvp (and, any related problem) does not seem to enjoy priority (which is not a huge problem for me, just a sign that matchmaking won't be, either).

 

Yet, most of my friends are not like me, they can either live without balanced pvp and they can have fun with systems in this state, or they are hardcore pvp players who didn't even give a chance to swtor. So, I don't really know how many ppl are bouncing away just because of the "premade" issue.

Edited May 1, 2023 by hunKAIn
typo

[krackcommando]

2 minutes ago, hunKAIn said:

So, when I experience such sh.ty pvp matchmaking as swtor's it's usually a much simpler for me to abandon the game

at the risk of repeating myself for the 100th time, premades roll premades all the time. and when two good premades fight each other, it's usually just <No Idea> and <Hysteria> DMing each other, which amounts to the same problem of nobody playing to win.

yes, you can play behind them and cap nodes or run the ball. but it's not fun winning when you're essentially not playing against (or with) anyone. it's just dumb. it completely ruins the experience of the game. I would rather players who don't want to play the game just leave. as I cannot dictate how other ppl play the game, I would just leave matches like this myself, except BW seems to think it's ok to be dragged by teammates and opponents who aren't trying to win, but it's not ok to leave and find a match where ppl actually try.

and just so we're clear, no one likes getting rolled. but if a dominant team actually tries, they'd roll you in HB or AHG or OPG or any WZ, and it would be over very quickly. instead, by ignoring the win conditions, they drag out the matches whether it's a garbage win or a garbage loss. and honestly, all I'm saying is let ppl who don't want to DM objective matches leave. let ppl who give up after the first door is capped leave. really. they aren't going to help.

your solution for solos to elect to play with grps is a non-starter. everyone always chooses the path of least resistance. and you're always going to stand a better chance of being carried with solos. and frankly, it's dumb to queue solo and rely on BW to match you up with a proper team. if I'm a healer, I'm going to at least roll with a DPS or two whom I know I can trust.

[Prapcaster]

4 hours ago, krackcommando said:

at the risk of repeating myself for the 100th time, premades roll premades all the time. and when two good premades fight each other, it's usually just <No Idea> and <Hysteria> DMing each other, which amounts to the same problem of nobody playing to win.

yes, you can play behind them and cap nodes or run the ball. but it's not fun winning when you're essentially not playing against (or with) anyone. it's just dumb. it completely ruins the experience of the game. I would rather players who don't want to play the game just leave. as I cannot dictate how other ppl play the game, I would just leave matches like this myself, except BW seems to think it's ok to be dragged by teammates and opponents who aren't trying to win, but it's not ok to leave and find a match where ppl actually try.

and just so we're clear, no one likes getting rolled. but if a dominant team actually tries, they'd roll you in HB or AHG or OPG or any WZ, and it would be over very quickly. instead, by ignoring the win conditions, they drag out the matches whether it's a garbage win or a garbage loss. and honestly, all I'm saying is let ppl who don't want to DM objective matches leave. let ppl who give up after the first door is capped leave. really. they aren't going to help.

your solution for solos to elect to play with grps is a non-starter. everyone always chooses the path of least resistance. and you're always going to stand a better chance of being carried with solos. and frankly, it's dumb to queue solo and rely on BW to match you up with a proper team. if I'm a healer, I'm going to at least roll with a DPS or two whom I know I can trust.

Can hardly blame people for just death matching. I used to but there's nowhere to go to actually pvp. Last remaining pvpers are all grouped into 4-5 pvp guilds across the entire game. Queueing 4's with the intention of actually getting good matches is point less because if you run a standard tank, heals and 2 dps chances are you're gonna go against some random bot team and neither side has any fun doing that. So queueing 8v8 to fight other premades is really the only option and there's no incentive to actually win other then some chump change tech frags. We need real rewards not these garbage armor sets that they're making now. Give it a year tops and you won't see any premades anymore. Actually you probably won't see anyone but node clickers either.

[krackcommando]

44 minutes ago, Prapcaster said:

Can hardly blame people for just death matching. I used to but there's nowhere to go to actually pvp. Last remaining pvpers are all grouped into 4-5 pvp guilds across the entire game. Queueing 4's with the intention of actually getting good matches is point less because if you run a standard tank, heals and 2 dps chances are you're gonna go against some random bot team and neither side has any fun doing that. So queueing 8v8 to fight other premades is really the only option and there's no incentive to actually win other then some chump change tech frags. We need real rewards not these garbage armor sets that they're making now. Give it a year tops and you won't see any premades anymore. Actually you probably won't see anyone but node clickers either.

see. now that excuse does ring hollow to me.

as i understand it, the guild challenge thing is broken, but any fool can friend someone or see a guild tag/premade, whisper them and meet up in a pvp instance to DM each other to their heart's content. heck, you can do it for more than 8m if you can find them.

honestly, that excuse is as bad as these whiners complaining that there needs to be a separate grp and solo queue. gawd. what a joke. like it's so hard to take your DM to someplace OTHER than the WZ where you ignore the objectives.

please dude. come up with something better. please. that cannot be the reason to literally (ok. figuratively) piss on the game.

[Prapcaster]

46 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

see. now that excuse does ring hollow to me.

as i understand it, the guild challenge thing is broken, but any fool can friend someone or see a guild tag/premade, whisper them and meet up in a pvp instance to DM each other to their heart's content. heck, you can do it for more than 8m if you can find them.

honestly, that excuse is as bad as these whiners complaining that there needs to be a separate grp and solo queue. gawd. what a joke. like it's so hard to take your DM to someplace OTHER than the WZ where you ignore the objectives.

please dude. come up with something better. please. that cannot be the reason to literally (ok. figuratively) piss on the game.

Group challenge actually is pointless tho. Even if the winrate worked for them it still would mean about as much as new warzone win percentage card does. I'm not sure why that rings hollow to you considering no fun objective maps have been added since yavin ruins. That's what, going on 6 years now? Even if people weren't deathmatching at spawn in 8v8 it wouldn't change the fact that nobody wants to guard a node/door, people rarely are willing to be a ball carrier in HB and the newer pvpers just run around aimlessly and get insanely toxic to anyone that tries to lend them a hand with learning the maps.

So if you're in a 4 man premade with pugs that do literally nothing but stand in one spot and click the node against a premade with pugs with a high mmr who do you think is gonna get rolled in both damage and obj? The team with the bot pugs realisticly won't bother with the obj. That happening over the course of several years turns people into the SF pvp guilds that just damage farm and don't even bother with the obj ever. The devs caused this animosity between the two types of pvpers by removing everything and refusing to reward playing obj with anything more then a pat on the back.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Prapcaster

[krackcommando]

2 hours ago, Prapcaster said:

Even if people weren't deathmatching at spawn in 8v8 it wouldn't change the fact that nobody wants to guard a node/door, people rarely are willing to be a ball carrier in HB and the newer pvpers just run around aimlessly and get insanely toxic to anyone that tries to lend them a hand with learning the maps.

bro, how bleeping hard is it to respond to a call for help? it's not like you're guarding the node. it's not like you're clicking (OMG not CLICKING!). or like...why do you have to chase instead of letting the fight come to you on the doors? or while at mid in HB, actually grab the ball and pass it to the other teammates trying to score. like it would be such a drag on you to grab the ball, move all of 3' and toss it to someone on the crosswalk. get out of here, man. there's plenty of space for DMing without completely ignoring win conditions, and there are always filler players willing to click and make calls.

but w/e. I don't expect to change minds. but your justification reeks of hypocrisy, and I couldn't say nothing.

as for the stakes not being there in WZs, yeah. they're the minor leagues. the were the minor leagues for 8+ years. yeah, they're full of bots and everything in between. yeah the rewards are meaningless. yeah 7.2 crap made everything meaningless. still, you sign-up to play chess. then you start playing checkers on the chess board. do you really not see how that makes you the jerk?

[Prapcaster]

11 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

bro, how bleeping hard is it to respond to a call for help? it's not like you're guarding the node. it's not like you're clicking (OMG not CLICKING!). or like...why do you have to chase instead of letting the fight come to you on the doors? or while at mid in HB, actually grab the ball and pass it to the other teammates trying to score. like it would be such a drag on you to grab the ball, move all of 3' and toss it to someone on the crosswalk. get out of here, man. there's plenty of space for DMing without completely ignoring win conditions, and there are always filler players willing to click and make calls.

but w/e. I don't expect to change minds. but your justification reeks of hypocrisy, and I couldn't say nothing.

as for the stakes not being there in WZs, yeah. they're the minor leagues. the were the minor leagues for 8+ years. yeah, they're full of bots and everything in between. yeah the rewards are meaningless. yeah 7.2 crap made everything meaningless. still, you sign-up to play chess. then you start playing checkers on the chess board. do you really not see how that makes you the jerk?

Directing your anger towards me is extremely misplaced. You're acting like I'm the entirety of damage farming guilds. I play obj when I get the odd team that actually talks in ops chat. I wasn't justifying anything I was telling you what I've seen first hand from people that only damage farm. The devs don't care so they don't care either. There's even less punishment for throwing in 8v8 then there was for throwing in ranked. It sucks but it's never gonna change because the devs don't care if it changes. All their talk about bringing a positive change to pvp and getting people to play obj is just that. This is what the game is now and nothing is gonna change it unless the dev teams paycheck gets threatened and by that time it'll be too late. Not really sure why you're coming at me sideways about it.

[krackcommando]

9 hours ago, Prapcaster said:

The devs don't care so they don't care either. There's even less punishment for throwing in 8v8 then there was for throwing in ranked.

that's a fact.

edit: the impersonal you is a thing. but it was your rationalization.

Edited May 2, 2023 by krackcommando

[Samcuu]

On 4/25/2023 at 7:16 PM, TrixxieTriss said:

That’s not actually factually correct. I track this 3 times a day, every day for a project I’m doing. https://steamcharts.com/app/1286830#1m

Yes, steam numbers are currently climbing, which is good news for the game 👍

But here is where you’re off track. 

The game only gets daily numbers above 9k on the weekend, and usually Sunday, not Saturday. And it’s only been the last 2 weekends that it’s gone above 9k (actually hitting 10,367 last Sunday). The usual numbers for the week average around 4-6k a day. Except this week, which is averaging 7-8k.

Now you’re also making an assumption that half the players use steam. Where are you getting that info from? BioWare don’t publicly show non steam numbers & I can find no BioWare info that states half the players use steam. For all we know, it could be a lot more or lot less than you’re suggesting. 

Also, unless you’re a BioWare employee, you’d have no idea how many people PvP. You said 10% PvP, but it could be as high as 60% or as low as 1%. Once again you’re making numbers up to support your opinions. 

It’s fine to have opinions, we all do. Just don’t try and dress them up as facts 👍

It's rough math I don't have access to the actual numbers. I've seen polls done by swtor content creators on Twitter/Redit, on both topics. Do you use the steam or swtor launhcher? And the second poll was a question about favorite activity in game. They have a decent vote count so it's not a miniscule sample size. 50 - 60% use the regular swtor launcher from the polls I've seen. And 10% of ppl play swtor avidly for the pvp. There are more casuals now since seasons but that poll was actually done before pvp seasons became a thing and ranked was still active. So could have dropped with ranked ppl leaving but we know a lot of casuals do pvp now for the rewards. I've actually shared the polls in other threads previously. 

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, Samcuu said:

I've seen polls done by swtor content creators on Twitter/Redit

both of them? 😀

[steveerkcanjerk]

There is also I think alot of L2P issue that gets ignored. No one likes to hear it but the reality is literally every single mmo hell practically every multiplayer game is like this. In WoW premades roll pure solo teams, ESO its the zergs and organized guilds, in GW2 its the groups as well, if we even shift genres you seen a team in cod or halo doing call outs, destiny premades are gonna do well. It is funny that we treat this like a special case for swtor. PVP is a place where there is a good chance you are gonna get rolled if you are just not up to snuff in play. Your win-rate is a reflection somewhat of you. I am talking about the players pulling 2-4k dps like every game. This is not a premade issue this is a skill issue. You will get rolled even if it was all solo queue because alot of the people in those premades take the game way more seriously then you do. For example when i solo queue i swap targets to people who have popped their dcds, arent guarded, cc the healer, and beat all the back peddling scrubs that are in queue. In fact, if you take premades away i am going to have a much easier time of it, when in eso made their battlegrounds solo queue only i had a field day on my nightblade, I could pick apart a whole team right next to each other in seconds while they did little to no dmg to me. (they ale reverted this change after like 6 months because solo queue actually killed the pvp experience). 

Players really need to look at themselves at some point. Because a solo queue isn't going to fix your 2k dps. Even when up against a premade and losing i am still able to finish within the top 3-5 people in dps and thats on a arsenal merc. Did I lose yes, but then i look at my team who have taken way less dmg then me and are all pulling 2-3k its like no wonder we lost. More players need to step up and learn the game. A matchmaker cant fix this problem with the player population we have, hell even WoW has the exact same issue. 

But can a matchmaker be better sure, but right now the issue the game is having is we have players who are really good and players who are really bad. We don't have alot of "average" players at the game which makes matches feel lobsided. 

Also learning the game does not make you hardcore. There is this idea that learning what the cooldowns are makes you this hardcore sweaty when that is just learning the basics of the game. PVP is not a turn your brain off mode 100%, you have to engage and at some point. Even if its only 30% of your brain and once you learn it well you can use less of the brain. But man there are some people who have been playing for 10 years and still pop all their cds at once and back peddle so idk. 

[krackcommando]

58 minutes ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

Players really need to look at themselves at some point. Because a solo queue isn't going to fix your 2k dps. Even when up against a premade and losing i am still able to finish within the top 3-5 people in dps and thats on a arsenal merc.

I think you're constructing something of a straw man here. yes, there are a lot of ppl that just want the Staples "easy button." in my experience as a solo player, the only real issue (and it's real) is that the "good ones" ignore the win conditions of the map, dps/kill farm, and even go so far as to delay completion of the match to get in more "pvp" time.

it doesn't matter whether a person is only capable of 2k dps or 20k dps. that kind of behavior is a problem. premades like that are often more of a detriment to their team than a help when they could very easily be a help just by redirecting their dmg just the slightest bit. but they care that little about winning or the rest of their "team."

you could argue that this situation is created by the lack of end game or high-end end game where elite players can develop and thrive. sure. I can see the logic there. I also concede that there's really no way of preventing a person from ignoring objectives (whether he stealths in a corner all game or throws by ignoring objectives to dmg farm). but what BW has done is unfathombly stupid. they actively penalize players for leaving when they find themselves on or against these premades.

the end result is the kill squads who have zero interest in playing the game they queued up for are rewarded with an endless supply of meat to cut and kill. while the players (both on their team and their "opponents") are forced to sit through a game for which the entire spirit has been gutted because the dominant players are just pissing on the map. like. really. this is...if I may use the butchered word...toxic. WZs are a godawful mess.

personally, I can live with getting rolled or playing with moronic teammates who think grabbing orbs in the midst of their team being wiped is a good idea. I can live with the tool who thinks camping the EZ all game even while the other team controls ball spawn and consistently marches toward our EZ is a good idea. it's frustrating, but dumb as those players are, at least they are trying to win. but when 4-6 guys group up with no intention or interest in winning - AND they're the most skilled players on the map - it presents a real (if I may) existential crisis for the game (well, the WZ format).

regardless of what a few WZ-diehards on this forum might object, the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the more skilled players queue up for WZs just to pop heads, and they ignore win conditions.

I don't think separate queues will affect this problem very much. I don't think there's anything BW can do to "force" players to play the objectives. I can tell you that these PVP season rewards and the rearranging of medals has absolutely zero impact on these players. I can tell you that at least some of them might not bother slumming with bots if there were...you know...a higher RATED queue they could play in, maybe where they could find something akin to a challenge. But what I can absolutely and unequivocally state is "forcing" players to remain in the WZs that these kill squads blatantly piss on for ~10 minutes each pop, is not helping the reputation nor the development of future PVP players in SWTOR.

Edited May 12, 2023 by krackcommando
typos

[Samcuu]

2 hours ago, krackcommando said:

both of them? 😀

Lol yeah there aren't many but there are a lot of random polls up on reddit ect. There's a swtor podcast that got like 1k votes on a poll about pvp and Vulkk did one on Reddit. In both instances it's like 10% of ppl who participate in pvp as a main activity in the game. So it's not a stretch to assume if you've got 20k ppl playing at peak hours (assuming 50/50 split from steam and swtor launcher) that around 2k of those are pvpers. 

The other interesting poll I saw was which server ppl play on. SF was 40%, Malgus was 30% and SS was 15%. So if they ever did the cross server queues you'd probably double the participation u see in warzones on SF. Which imo, again, would be good for everyone involved. In fact it would probably have an even greater effect considering a lot of ppl get frustrated having to face the same premades every match especially on the less populated servers. More ppl in queue, matchmaking works better, you don't see the same ppl over and over ect. 

 

https://twitter.com/OotiniCast/status/1541858523864109056?t=DFjTimmjiCxtZDvgRWkaZA&s=19

 

https://vulkk.com/2016/02/06/interesting-swtor-reddit-polls/

Edited May 12, 2023 by Samcuu

[steveerkcanjerk]

53 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

I think you're constructing something of a straw man here. yes, there are a lot of ppl that just want the Staples "easy button." in my experience as a solo player, the only real issue (and it's real) is that the "good ones" ignore the win conditions of the map, dps/kill farm, and even go so far as to delay completion of the match to get in more "pvp" time.

it doesn't matter whether a person is only capable of 2k dps or 20k dps. that kind of behavior is a problem. premades like that are often more of a detriment to their team than a help when they could very easily be a help just by redirecting their dmg just the slightest bit. but they care that little about winning or the rest of their "team."

you could argue that this situation is created by the lack of end game or high-end end game where elite players can develop and thrive. sure. I can see the logic there. I also concede that there's really no way of preventing a person from ignoring objectives (whether he stealths in a corner all game or throws by ignoring objectives to dmg farm). but what BW has done is unfathombly stupid. they actively penalize players for leaving when they find themselves on or against these premades.

the end result is the kill squads who have zero interest in playing the game they queued up for are rewarded with an endless supply of meat to cut and kill. while the players (both on their team and their "opponents") are forced to sit through a game for which the entire spirit has been gutted because the dominant players are just pissing on the map. like. really. this is...if I may use the butchered word...toxic. WZs are a godawful mess.

personally, I can live with getting rolled or playing with moronic teammates who think grabbing orbs in the midst of their team being wiped is a good idea. I can live with the tool who thinks camping the EZ all game even while the other team controls ball spawn and consistently marches toward our EZ is a good idea. it's frustrating, but dumb as those players are, at least they are trying to win. but when 4-6 guys group up with no intention or interest in winning - AND they're the most skilled players on the map - it presents a real (if I may) existential crisis for the game (well, the WZ format).

regardless of what a few WZ-diehards on this forum might object, the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the more skilled players queue up for WZs just to pop heads, and they ignore win conditions.

I don't think separate queues will affect this problem very much. I don't think there's anything BW can do to "force" players to play the objectives. I can tell you that these PVP season rewards and the rearranging of medals has absolutely zero impact on these players. I can tell you that at least some of them might not bother slumming with bots if there were...you know...a higher RATED queue they could play in, maybe where they could find something akin to a challenge. But what I can absolutely and unequivocally state is "forcing" players to remain in the WZs that these kill squads blatantly piss on for ~10 minutes each pop, is not helping the reputation nor the development of future PVP players in SWTOR.

reguardless if they are just damage farming, it doesnt matter if the players cant even do their rotation. Death ball onto the obj, death ball off of it its the same situation. You can farm the other team in literally any game if you are just that much better. We had ranked in the game and it was still an issue back then people complained up 4 stacks, but many peoples arguments do come from a place hey i got rolled match making be better. But the reality is that there is not enough players to keep breaking people out into queues and then even within those queues the skill disparity between players is very high. At least with the new changes they are encouraging people to death match at the obj. But no matter how you slice it the core of pvp is going to be about being better at killing the other player. And I am sorry if you are pulling insane insanely low dps its not gonna happen. We had rated, and it was pretty dead, were their people who enjoyed it yes I was one of them. But I won't pretend like it was in this amazing spot where I could just queue get matches, if my schedule irl throttle even a little you literally wouldn't get a pop. And even back then there were still people damage farming in warzones, there were still premades running around, etc. There isn't an actual solution to the issue. You know how you stop a team from farming? You kill them. Its that simple. And if you can't well then they are just better and that is how pvp just works. This isn't swtor specific, this is literally any pvp game. And a vast majority of people are not gonna wait super long queue times for those "perfect" matches which won't even be perfect matches. You got 2 hours to play in the evening you gonna sit in queue for most of it or hop on a game thats gets you in a game. Most people are just gonna want to get into the game. And as a solo player the power to inflict full change is going to be limited. It comes down to guild up and group up, and get better then them. Or at least get good enough to put up a fight if all else fails. 

"The good ones" ignore the objectives because people who love to pvp just hop onto pvp. They want to watch your hp bar hit 0. Objectives are really there to facilitate PvP not to prevent it. You can get farmed on obj or right outside the spawn but that is just PvP. Get farmed at your last point in WoW BG, Outside your keep in ESO or Arena Spawn, Spawn camped in GW2, in destiny etc. Pick the game and a team that is better at killing which is the core of the game is kill them and do it well. Its like if in PvE people started getting mad at people wanting to cheese a mechanic. "I want the experience of the mechanic" you would look silly saying that to the tank because the core of the experience is to beat the boss. And if there is a method to do it better players will take it. Yes the boss is not a player but the point I am making is that if you are not good at the core of the activity or want to participate in the core of an activity you are gonna have a bad time. And for PvP its killing other players and it turns out if you group up and communicate it gets easier to do that. Same thing for PvE yeah you can pug nim tfb but chances are it will go alot smoother if you are in a coordinated group. 

[krackcommando]

2 hours ago, Samcuu said:

The other interesting poll I saw was which server ppl play on. SF was 40%, Malgus was 30% and SS was 15%. So if they ever did the cross server queues you'd probably double the participation u see in warzones on SF. Which imo, again, would be good for everyone involved.

it would be relatively insignificant to SF natives. It would be a huge boon for SS natives.

i don't know where to begin with putting DM natives in the same match with SF and SS. where is the host server located for this? I'd straight-up quit the game if I had to deal with ping to EU.

I know there's talk about AMS and more locally hosted stuff with virtual servers and so forth. but at the end of the day, if you're sourcing 30%-40% of your players from drastically different sides of the globe, things are going to get bogged down, because my client in Seattle, WA needs to know what other dude's client is doing in Berlin, Germany, and what Trix is doing in AU. so wherever the server is, that information needs to find it's way to all points on the web. I think we've danced this circle before (regarding x-server), but I don't think that's a feasible solution (except for helping the clients that are already close to each other). I really really do not want (realistically given time of day issues) 20% of the players in a given instance that i play to be working on pings that put them a full GCD or more behind just as a starting point. and I sure as **** won't be playing if I end up in that boat (as the person with ping issues).

[krackcommando]

2 hours ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

We had rated, and it was pretty dead, were their people who enjoyed it yes I was one of them. But I won't pretend like it was in this amazing spot where I could just queue get matches, if my schedule irl throttle even a little you literally wouldn't get a pop. And even back then there were still people damage farming in warzones, there were still premades running around, etc.

I guarantee you that if BW offered the same solo and grp rated WZ queues that they did for arenas, the rated queues would have popped with 5x the population that we saw with arenas and class balance would not have gone completely sideways because every DPS class need to survive quad tunneling from 4 dps w/o a dedicated healer and tank.

don't get me wrong. I understand how solo arenas were dynamic and could be exciting because the role comps changed around with a few (3?) possible combinations. but that made balance really hard. and there was a palpable disinterest in WZs by skilled players from that point forward.

I could see grp WZs going the way of grp arenas, but solo rated WZs? that would "limp on" the way solo arenas did...with 3x-5x more players for a base. and yeah, that's b/c WZs are more accessible than arenas. you don't die once and it's over. you can be constructive without fully maximizing your spec's dps ceiling.

2 hours ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

"The good ones" ignore the objectives because people who love to pvp just hop onto pvp. They want to watch your hp bar hit 0. Objectives are really there to facilitate PvP not to prevent it.

you use the word "PVP" like a kindergartner. pvp is not simply watching your opponent's HP bar hit 0. Objectives are not there to facilitate "PVP." that is largest lie ppl spread on this forum. by that asinine logic, american football isn't "pvp" because there are objectives like..you know...scoring, moving an object from point A to point B. jfc. your definition of pvp so stupid, it's like saying the only pvp in the world is actual war or UFC. and no other competition between players constitutes player vs. player.

Edited May 12, 2023 by krackcommando

[steveerkcanjerk]

33 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

I guarantee you that if BW offered the same solo and grp rated WZ queues that they did for arenas, the rated queues would have popped with 5x the population that we saw with arenas and class balance would not have gone completely sideways because every DPS class need to survive quad tunneling from 4 dps w/o a dedicated healer and tank.

don't get me wrong. I understand how solo arenas were dynamic and could be exciting because the role comps changed around with a few (3?) possible combinations. but that made balance really hard. and there was a palpable disinterest in WZs by skilled players from that point forward.

I could see grp WZs going the way of grp arenas, but solo rated WZs? that would "limp on" the way solo arenas did...with 3x-5x more players for a base. and yeah, that's b/c WZs are more accessible than arenas. you don't die once and it's over. you can be constructive without fully maximizing your spec's dps ceiling.

you use the word "PVP" like a kindergartner. pvp is not simply watching your opponent's HP bar hit 0. Objectives are not there to facilitate "PVP." that is largest lie ppl spread on this forum. by that asinine logic, american football isn't "pvp" because there are objectives like..you know...scoring, moving an object from point A to point B. jfc. your definition of pvp so stupid, it's like saying the only pvp in the world is actual war or UFC. and no other competition between players constitutes player vs. player.

Well for one you might be right about rated solo warzones maybe not. But there are also alot of players who just the idea of being rated is a turn off. This game has a very casual player base and i don't think rated arenas matter to alot of the player base even people who log into to pvp. Could it work sure but that is up to bioware. 

Now thanks for the insult you seem like such a reasonable person. I guess you can disagree with my assessment on PvP with all the facts you have lined up in your post or lack there of. But I think it is a pretty solid assumption to say what brings people into PvP is the ability to fight other players. I have never once heard someone say "Wow I just love capping and holding an objective." Objectives themselves add depth and purpose to the PvP experience. Fighting other players while also having to defend an objective is a bit more interesting then just killing. It gives you something to position around, makes maps more interesting, keeps the battles moving etc. Now you use the sports example well, I would make the argument that scoring in football gives the tackling and plays depth. But at its core its about showing off athleticism at various positions. And the UFC and War analogy at the end. Umm we are playing a game called star wars. You literally interact with 80% of the game with killing things. Is it really that much of a stretch to say in a PvP environment "Defeating other players is the core part of the PvP experience." It doesn't seem like a crazy thing to me. So in the context of this video game yeah it kind of is a war and we are literally shooting lightning, missiles, stabbing, and brutally killing each other. That is literally the entire gameplay loop of PvP. And those objectives get you and me to the same spot so we can do that. 

Also there is no need to insult someone or talk down to them I am just sharing my opinion like you are. At the end of the day our definitions of things don't matter since we don't make the game. 

Just so we don't lose the plot: 
1. I do think that a ranked wz mode would be interesting to see if it works. 
2. I do think that skill is a big issue in the premade shouting match that happens between the same 10 people on these forums. 
3. Literally every other PvP game has these same issues. 

All I am saying from someone who plays alot of pvp not just in swtor but in alot of other mmo's as well. Just like you I am just sharing opinions and trying to enjoy the game. 

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

Now you use the sports example well, I would make the argument that scoring in football gives the tackling and plays depth. But at its core its about showing off athleticism at various positions. And the UFC and War analogy at the end. Umm we are playing a game called star wars. You literally interact with 80% of the game with killing things.

it's a core skill. it's not the end game. when you sign up to play a game, and then ignore the goals of that game just to do one core skill for that game, you are kinda being a jerk. but hey, that's your thing. fine. impersonal you, btw.

however, to then turn around and say that core aspect of the game is the actual game and the only game, and the win conditions of the game that you're playing are irrelevant is total BS. winning isn't a side game in the sport. it's the purpose of exercising the skills that you've honed.

if all you're interested in doing is tackling players, so you don't bother doing things like filling gaps or dropping into coverage, then your butt is sent straight to the bench, because again...the goal of the game isn't to tackle (even though it's arguably the most fundamental thing for defensiveman), it's to win the game, which involves you playing with your team and doing other things besides trying to be the guy with the tackle or qb sack.

this is so patently obvious, i don't know why I need to explain it. you literally sign-up to a WZ that has winners and losers. and winning or losing is predicated on certain things. choosing to ignore those things and then saying "they aren't pvp" is absolute horse poop. just say YOU (personal? impersonal?) don't want to do them and you won't do them and move on. don't try to redefine gravity to support your desire to join a pvp format and then not play that format.

and yes, insisting that anything outside of actually killing an opponent isn't pvp is infantile logic. I didn't call you stupid, btw. but your use of pvp to the exclusion of anything other than draining an opponent's HP away is childish. be offended or not. I'm rather offended that you (impersonal) would hold to that childish reduction of "pvp" and then use it as a basis to ruin the game. (granted, as I said above, there are things BW did to drive it to this state, such as making winning or losing WZs meaningless).

 

[Samcuu]

1 hour ago, krackcommando said:

so wherever the server is, that information needs to find it's way to all points on the web. I think we've danced this circle before (regarding x-server), but I don't think that's a feasible solution (except for helping the clients that are already close to each other). I really really do not want (realistically given time of day issues) 20% of the players in a given instance that i play to be working on pings that put them a full GCD or more behind just as a starting point. and I sure as **** won't be playing if I end up in that boat (as the person with ping issues).

Don't u find it interesting that when they tested the AWS server they did it as a pacific ocean server? They wanted us in NA and the EU to test the ping from servers that were not local clearly. But it doesn't really matter all that much I know ranked players that got top 3 in solos with a ping of like 200, so regardless you can play on a server that's far away from ur location and be competitive.