The Esseles should not be a starter Flashpoint.

[RevBurt]

Esseles should not be a starter Flashpoint.

It is a very harsh introduction to Flashpoints for new members and here is why:

Veteran members know this one and it is extremely long so it is the favorite for speed runs.

1. Mounts are required for speed runs in Esseles. Not all new players have mounts at this point.

2. No one reads the dialog, so you Space-Bar your way through regardless of the choices.

The results:

Frustration for both new and Veteran players so people tend to abandon groups when doing this FP.

It was trial by fire for me when I first started.  Quit many times because I could not keep up with the group.

Later on when I progressed, I helped new players especially without mounts to walk through the FP.......but it was like pulling teeth.

Now I just plain hate the FP and bail out when queued to it.

 

The ideal starter FP imo is Hammer Station.

 

 

 

[MortenJessen]

Just no. It is the perfect starter flashpoints as it introduces new players to group mechanisms in a slow and understandable manner. If they made Spammer Station into the starter flashpoint, how many new players do you thing would be kicked because they can not speedrun it, dont know enough about skills and pull-tactics (I am looking at the very first to fights in Spammer Station here, not even all so-called "veterans" knows how to take cover and how to figure out the right kill order. A surprisingly large amount of those "veterans" screw that one up and ends up dead, even a lot of those "legendary" tards) and dont have enough defensive cooldowns yet to survive the turrets and the following fight at the last bridge? For ideas, this one has to be the worst ever. They, BW, would have to redesign Spammer Station from end to other to fit new players. And I just dont see that happen.

So NO. Go away. Just stop having Esseles selected in GF.

Edited April 15, 2023 by MortenJessen

[RevBurt]

51 minutes ago, MortenJessen said:

So NO. Go away. Just stop having Esseles selected in GF.

I would but it's required to qualify for the random rewards requirement.  So I have to select all and hope.

[MortenJessen]

11 minutes ago, RevBurt said:

I would but it's required to qualify for the random rewards requirement.  So I have to select all and hope.

You do know that the meager reward from GF can be compensated for in very short order doing other content? Why do others have to suffer because you are lazy?

[MortenJessen]

As an aside, what do you think you would say in like 1 months from now, if they rearranged them tomorrow?? You would be on this very forum, suggesting they made "name third FP" into beginner flashpoint, because new players dont know how to speed run Spammer Station, and because you HAVE to have it selected to get the rewards, you just want the new players out, alt+f4 and c-format. See the bad circle, people like you create? Instead of just accepting that Esseles and Black Talon are what they are.

Edited April 15, 2023 by MortenJessen

[casirabit]

Maybe do something like FFX does on dungeons (their flashpoints), if there is a new player in the dungeon, then everyone is awarded extra tomestones of poetics (those you use to ugrade your gear), and maybe then people will be more patient.

[RevBurt]

2 hours ago, MortenJessen said:

You do know that the meager reward from GF can be compensated for in very short order doing other content? Why do others have to suffer because you are lazy?

Why do I have to suffer because of someone's inexperience?

[MortenJessen]

37 minutes ago, RevBurt said:

Why do I have to suffer because of someone's inexperience?

You dont. Just stop doing the beginner flash point. Or, be a good, helpful player, who helps the new players to a good experience, if you absolutely HAVE to have that reward instead of working around it. A route that actually is faster and gives better, but hey, that is not on me.

[SteveTheCynic]

5 hours ago, RevBurt said:

Esseles should not be a starter Flashpoint.

You have absolutely failed to justify this remarkable assertion.

5 hours ago, RevBurt said:

It is a very harsh introduction to Flashpoints for new members and here is why:

Veteran members know this one and it is extremely long so it is the favorite for speed runs.

That means exactly nothing in the context of a "starter" Flashpoint.  If you've been following the forums recently (like, you know, in the past three or four years!), you'll have seen the repeated posts about removing SLS and BT from the Group Finder menus.

5 hours ago, RevBurt said:

1. Mounts are required for speed runs in Esseles. Not all new players have mounts at this point.

So what?  In Story mode, there's only one player in there anyway.

5 hours ago, RevBurt said:

2. No one reads the dialog, so you Space-Bar your way through regardless of the choices.

Excessive generalisation is excessive.  Don't assume that new players, who would be the logical target of a starter FP, think the same way you do.

[RevBurt]

You know, something I've noticed about this forum(s) is that if you post a suggestion, you don't get counter suggestions but rather outright vitriol for even "thinking such a thing" and how much I have "failed" for even posting.

If you are incapable of detaching your emotions from what you read, then perhaps  you have failed as a forum contributor.  Seems a lot of you conflate someone's ideas with their moral character as a player and a person.

Fine, I had my say and I will continue to play as always, new players be damned.  You all have taught me to be as big an ****** as you.

If they cant keep up then they can bail like I did when I started out. Trial by fire it is.

 

Have a nice day and don't forget to bathe.

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by RevBurt

[MortenJessen]

Difference between "suggestions" and "my opinion" is this:

Suggestion: Remove cost from quick travel, it will only hurt players whom has not yet become rich anyway.

Opinion: Remove Esseles as starter flashpoint because ME ME ME...

Notice the difference?

Care to hazard a guess as to what my point is?

Edited April 15, 2023 by MortenJessen

[RevBurt]

Just now, MortenJessen said:

Difference between "suggestions" and "my opinion" is this:

Suggestion: Remove cost from quick travel, it will only hurt players whom has not yet become rich anyway.

Opinion: Remove Esseles as starter flashpoint because ME ME ME...

Notice the difference?

So new players who have not yet become rich are suffering from "ME ME ME" syndrome with the QT costs, are they not?

 

See how that works?

[elimatorxv]

esseles a harsh Flashpoint? you can 2 man this on veteran while being lvl 15 and 2 comps on heal below lvl 5 influence.

you dont know what you are talking about.

[MortenJessen]

11 minutes ago, RevBurt said:

So new players who have not yet become rich are suffering from "ME ME ME" syndrome with the QT costs, are they not?

 

See how that works?

If I recall, YOU wrote this:

 

19 minutes ago, RevBurt said:

If you are incapable of detaching your emotions from what you read, then perhaps  you have failed as a forum contributor.  Seems a lot of you conflate someone's ideas with their moral character as a player and a person.

And you failing utterly, for what it is worth, means what?

19 minutes ago, RevBurt said:

You know, something I've noticed about this forum(s) is that if you post a suggestion, you don't get counter suggestions but rather outright vitriol for even "thinking such a thing" and how much I have "failed" for even posting.

Again, because what you posted do not qualify as a suggestion, as it lacks argumentation, and it is BATHED in "OPINION" because it does not benefit the target audience; The Beginners. Only veterans who should not be there anyway (see your own argument about greed).

See my counter argument in my first post about Spammer Station being probably THE MOST beginner friendly FP of them all, hence its nickname. 

  

19 minutes ago, RevBurt said:

don't forget to bathe

If you clear up your thought process, and see things the right way, whom do you think has the right here; the newbie who is 1) learning and hence 2) que for Esseles because it is a beginner flashpoint

or

The greedy "veterans" who cant stay away because they are too lazy to accumulate rewards in other ways?

Point is, dont expect ALL players to like newbie bashing.

Edited April 15, 2023 by MortenJessen

[RevBurt]

Just now, elimatorxv said:

esseles a harsh Flashpoint? you can 2 man this on veteran while being lvl 15 and 2 comps on heal below lvl 5 influence.

you dont know what you are talking about.

If you have no mounts and maybe 30 mins on your hands, yeah sure.

[RevBurt]

3 minutes ago, MortenJessen said:

If I recall, YOU wrote this:

 

And you failing utterly, for what it is worth, means what?

Again, because what you posted do not qualify as a suggestion, as it lacks argumentation, and it is BATHED in "OPINION" because it does not benefit the target audience; The Beginners. Only veterans who should not be there anyway (see your own argument about greed).

See my counter argument in my first post about Spammer Station being probably THE MOST beginner friendly FP of them all, hence its nickname. 

This is a gaming forum not a beginner's business contract law course.  Opinions give birth to suggestions or haven't you noticed?  The "target" audience was all players, not just beginners though they suffer the most IMO.  Both beginners and Vets bail out of that FP for the aforementioned reasons. It's hard to keep a steady crew in there.  If you are not bored to death with the repetitive dialog and waiting to progress (Space Bar Pls) then you are catching your breath trying to keep up with the speed freaks surrounded by NPCs.

But at this point since you have added absolutely NOTHING to this conversation but argumentation and OPINION, I will just assume you are a troll and ignore any further comments from you.

[MortenJessen]

Fun fact: I just inspected you. You joined less than 2 years ago. Mind you, some players ran the Esseles for the first time on December 20, 2011. I know what hard content is, and what "Fire By Trial" means, as I did the Esseles back in late July 2011. You have/had the bennefit of 1) It becoming a "Solo" flashpoint you could do and 2) the experience from more than 1 million Esseles runs to draw on.... And you have, what, in your own over inflated ego-trip decided that you forgot what it means to be new, just because YOU had a bad experience??

I played the game when the Emperor fight really did kill you if you did not put an effort into it. You never EVER had to learn your class, you NEVER had to learn a role, you NEVER had to actually do hard content, because you only started playing after the game became "easy-mode follow-the-companion". 

How dare you mock new players and call them waste?? Noob.

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by MortenJessen

[MortenJessen]

1 hour ago, RevBurt said:

Opinions give birth to suggestions or haven't you noticed?

No I have not, because opinions give birth to politics and policy (and religion). Need gives birth to suggestions. Failure to improvements.

1 hour ago, RevBurt said:

But at this point since you have added absolutely NOTHING to this conversation but argumentation and OPINION, I will just assume you are a troll and ignore any further comments from you.

Your frustration with my argumentation I can actually understand, because they are based on logic, and you cant really argue how your suggestion holds out against them. That is just proof that while I may not be right, but I did a good job.

My opinion was NOT voiced until you started screwing over new players. And that you got an overhaul for, yes. Because I also have an opinion on new players. If exchanging opinions on new players end up with you feeling trolled, I hope my point hit home. If not, you can always find me here for more...

Edited April 16, 2023 by MortenJessen

[Devolvio]

8 hours ago, RevBurt said:

Frustration for both new and Veteran players so people tend to abandon groups when doing this FP.

It was trial by fire for me when I first started.  Quit many times because I could not keep up with the group.

Later on when I progressed, I helped new players especially without mounts to walk through the FP.......but it was like pulling teeth.

Now I just plain hate the FP and bail out when queued to it.

You know, my experiences of The Esseles run via Group Finder were breathlessly quick too. And I've seen what you mean when three of the group have mounts in the Esseles and know the joint backwards and there's one poor sod who's level 15 and no mount and clearly no idea what to do.

I'm on Tulak Hord, so usually I needed only to say, "Please wait, So-and-so has no mount" or "Please wait, I think So-and-so is new" which would immediately be responded to with considerate behaviour, even if no actual reply. Very occasionally, a veteran player would abandon us in impatience, or I'd be completely ignored and the others would repeatedly initiate combat while the new player (and me) were stuck in the elevator. 😑 ^^

Also, despite playing for a while, almost all my group content was Republic side, so it was me who was always the clueless player for the Imperial equivalent (actually all the unique Imp FPs), and it was a miserable experience. People were not explicitly mean to me, but it was clearly conveyed to me that I was wasting their valuable time and that expediency and the FP reward was of vastly higher priority than low value rewards such as group co-operation, playfulness or enjoyment. ^^

For the longest time, like you, I was really intent on getting those Group Finder Conquest Objective/ Random GF rewards each week. Then I thought about it and weighed it up and realised that the reward is, on balance, just NOT worth it. Precisely because I don't want to end up resenting any particular Flashpoint or content. Nor do I want to end up resenting the players in general as, while I've met many delightful and hilariously playful folks through GF, the bad experiences and people always stick like sh*t to a blanket in my memory because that's just how our brains default rank these experiences. I noticed that tended to make me view the whole GF experience with a negative bias, even though the vast majority of my GF runs I'd rank as between very satisfying to joyous. So, I now stick to Guild groups or groups assembled on the Fleet - usually with a bunch of people or another Guild I'm familiar with. When I'm feeling energetic I rustle up my own and we always wait for the stragglers, dammit! 😤 ^^

So now my approach is largely GF can go f itself and I stay well away. I'm a lot less stressed when playing group content as a result, I no longer waste my time and energy on futile runs or am made to feel like a dead weight and in hindsight it seems like a very small compromise for a very great gain. 😏

I'd suggest being more selfish and placing *your* enjoyment of the game experience as your priority and f those GF rewards. 😉 ^^

Edit: And another thing...

Spoiler

I keep notes of players who behave like pricks, especially to inexperienced players in group activities. And also those who are patient and kind. Extensive notes. I prefer this method to using a blanket Legacy Ignore, because I prefer to err on the side of tolerance. (At least until an unmistakable, predictable pattern of ars*holery reveals itself, in which circumstance Legacy Ignore is gold. ^^) Certain Guilds are full of them, others carefully curate to keep intolerant pricks out. These notes really helped me know what to expect from certain players from the outset in GF group runs, and still now when organising non GF groups, or joining (or not) group runs.

Just mentioning it as a way to try to keep your group experiences as enjoyable as possible. 👍 ^^

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Devolvio
And another thing...

[TonyTricicolo]

In my experience if someone from the get go announces "Hey it's my first time here or it's been a while since I've run this one" the rest of the group acknowledges and is understanding and accommodating. However, if nothing is said then I assume it's a speed run.  One thing I don't tolerate is people not saying anything then going off on their own not waiting for anyone like Rambo attacking the Viet Cong. I don't play that! You draw agro while I'm trying to heal "nah, nah" not with me! Just a side note, you can't tell the caliber of player by their level. Just because you see a lowbie in the queue it doesn't mean they don't know the instance. It is more often than you think a veteran player leveling up a new character.  

Bottom line:

Communicate, if you don't then people will assume.

Edited April 16, 2023 by TonyTricicolo

[MortenJessen]

2 hours ago, TonyTricicolo said:

Communicate, if you don't then people will assume.

Words of Truth.

[DawnAskham]

Esseles and BT ARE starter flashpoints, the problem is Bioware sticking newbies trying to run their first FP at level 11 into groups with higher-level players.

And no, everyone who isn't level 11 running it for the first time isn't going to wait around to watch 10 minutes of cutscenes and RP walk through the instance. That isn't to say we shouldn't expect players to be polite and understanding of new players, just the fact that everyone will not be accommodating.

They need to restrict the queue for these two FPs to sub 20, maybe even sub 16 - and do a better job of explaining how players can complete these with the support droid on solo story mode.

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by DawnAskham

[Dayshadow]

23 hours ago, RevBurt said:

Esseles should not be a starter Flashpoint.

It is a very harsh introduction to Flashpoints for new members and here is why:

Veteran members know this one and it is extremely long so it is the favorite for speed runs.

1. Mounts are required for speed runs in Esseles. Not all new players have mounts at this point.

2. No one reads the dialog, so you Space-Bar your way through regardless of the choices.

The results:

Frustration for both new and Veteran players so people tend to abandon groups when doing this FP.

It was trial by fire for me when I first started.  Quit many times because I could not keep up with the group.

Later on when I progressed, I helped new players especially without mounts to walk through the FP.......but it was like pulling teeth.

Now I just plain hate the FP and bail out when queued to it.

 

The ideal starter FP imo is Hammer Station.

What are you even talking about? New players can solo Esseles in story mode. Easily. They do not need a group.

If doing Veteran or Master FP dailies the chronological storyline placement of a flashpoint is irrelevant.

[Devolvio]

8 hours ago, TonyTricicolo said:

In my experience if someone from the get go announces "Hey it's my first time here or it's been a while since I've run this one" the rest of the group acknowledges and is understanding and accommodating. However, if nothing is said then I assume it's a speed run.  One thing I don't tolerate is people not saying anything then going off on their own not waiting for anyone like Rambo attacking the Viet Cong. I don't play that! You draw agro while I'm trying to heal "nah, nah" not with me! Just a side note, you can't tell the caliber of player by their level. Just because you see a lowbie in the queue it doesn't mean they don't know the instance. It is more often than you think a veteran player leveling up a new character.  

Bottom line:

Communicate, if you don't then people will assume.

So true. Although, I usually confirm with a player I suspect is new or at least new to that content whether they are or not before I say anything. Sometimes it's a kid, and they're almost never going to speak up for themselves because they're trying to look like smoove gamers. And sometimes folks are just overwhelmed by the unexpected rush and action and are so desperate to keep up they've no time to chat. If you're *so* new that you don't even realise that the window for such chat is limited before you're left behind it can be tricky. I remember I didn't even know you could even do something like skip cinematics in FPs for the longest time. (I was so confused because I was trying to work out what slang the word 'skip' translated to in German. Man I was clueless.😅)  xD

[Devolvio]

3 hours ago, DawnAskham said:

Esseles and BT ARE starter flashpoints, the problem is Bioware sticking newbies trying to run their first FP at level 11 into groups with higher-level players.

And no, everyone who isn't level 11 running it for the first time isn't going to wait around to watch 10 minutes of cutscenes and RP walk through the instance. That isn't to say we shouldn't expect players to be polite and understanding of new players, just the fact that everyone will not be accommodating.

They need to restrict the queue for these two FPs to sub 20, maybe even sub 16 - and do a better job of explaining how players can complete these with the support droid on solo story mode.

 

Actually, on that theme. You know what would be useful, is if players have an option in Group Finder to flag themselves in any particular FP/ Uprising queue as a Guide. (Not sure if it would be practical for Ops or PvP though.) A Guide being designated as a player both willing and experienced enough - and with sufficient time on their hands for that given run - to assume the role of the group leader and guide *if* need be. If you spawn in the instance and everyone is flagged, well then, "Hey-ho let's go!" and you can really spank that pony. However, if one or more of the group is not, it allows for people to take a moment to suss out what a reasonable expectation of everyone's skill will be. 🤔 ^^