Premades Are Destroying The Queue Again As Per Usual

[Skolops]

12 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

it was a thing. playing on the larger PVE servers,

I'm genuinely not trying to be snyde, but this is the problem right here. Of course back when you could choose a sever that was PvE vs PvP the rated warzones were not as populated. The people who would have been interested in them - whether they were great, top of the line players or those with less skill but who still enjoyed PvP - joined PvP servers. I can fully imagine that on a PvE  server there weren't enough people Qing for things to work out ideally - all of the people who wanted to Q were on the PvP servers. 

For instance, you say:

Quote

the only time RWZs ever actually thrived was when the top guilds from each server PAID to transfer to an agreed upon server (east coast NA, it was Pot5). and there's no way of telling how that would have gone, because in less than a month, BW announced the death of RWZs.

I was on Pot5 Qing rateds every night, both before and after the wave of transfers you're talking about, and it's just not true that rated warzones didn't thrive before those transfers. They were popular on that server back before 2.0 and they were popular after 2.0 up until the transfers and the removal of RWZs, too. 

In fact, as I recall one of the reasons people transferred to Pot5 was because the PvP there WAS so good. Pot5 on the east and the Bastion on the west had a strong rated warzone scene. You could not only play rated PvP every night but you could watch streams every night of rated matches and there were even people who "broadcast" rateds with commentary. I particularly remember a guy who did it who went by the name Flavor, or something like that. This is part of what prompted guilds on other servers who wanted to do rated warzones to transfer: the rated community on these two servers were strong.

I'll fully grant that on PvE servers rateds may not have been populated enough to survive. Yet that just goes back to my point: you need the population, and if you have it, it works. It worked on Pot5 and the Bastion long before the transfers, and the matchups only got more diverse afterwards. Actually, if anything I'd say that those transfers may have hurt the rated community a little bit because you didn't have lower tiered teams transferring, just higher skilled ones, meaning that the nice balance that existed on Pot5 (and I presume the Bastion, though I wasn't as familiar with it) beforehand that I described in my previous post of different tiers of teams being able to have fun was thrown off a bit since now lower skilled teams had an awful lot more good teams to run into.

 

[krackcommando]

17 minutes ago, Skolops said:

I'm genuinely not trying to be snyde, but this is the problem right here. Of course back when you could choose a sever that was PvE vs PvP the rated warzones were not as populated. The people who would have been interested in them - whether they were great, top of the line players or those with less skill but who still enjoyed PvP - joined PvP servers. I can fully imagine that on a PvE  server there weren't enough people Qing for things to work out ideally - all of the people who wanted to Q were on the PvP servers. 

interestingly enough, some pot5 guys came over (something unicorns) to the pve server (still CO at the tim iirc) and the only success they managed was to teach players on imp side how to cheat the reg MM by q-syncing. 😄

I'll never forget the name of the dude. something like Warlord Troy Warlord. please tell me he was a laughing stock meme on pot5. 🤨

anyway, it's not that all of the ppl who wanted to q were on the pvp servers. it's that all of the ppl who wanted to queue weren't die hards willing to get curb stomped for months on end. I'm telling you, it's not just that ppl didn't want to queue. it's that they got in there. got rekt. and said, "yeah. not for me. not worth the bother."

the theoretical "good thing" about eliminated rated matches of any kind is that everyone is in the same pool, so there should be better matchmaking with the largest possible population pool. doesn't work out that way, ofc. but there are a ton of MM factors (prum pointed out one I never think about in another thread) and they don't combine well or easily.

Edited April 8, 2023 by krackcommando

[Skolops]

42 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

interestingly enough, some pot5 guys came over (something unicorns) to the pve server (still CO at the tim iirc) and the only success they managed was to teach players on imp side how to cheat the reg MM by q-syncing. 😄

I'll never forget the name of the dude. something like Warlord Troy Warlord. please tell me he was a laughing stock meme on pot5. 🤨

anyway, it's not that all of the ppl who wanted to q were on the pvp servers. it's that all of the ppl who wanted to queue weren't die hards willing to get curb stomped for months on end. I'm telling you, it's not just that ppl didn't want to queue. it's that they got in there. got rekt. and said, "yeah. not for me. not worth the bother."

the theoretical "good thing" about eliminated rated matches of any kind is that everyone is in the same pool, so there should be better matchmaking with the largest possible population pool. doesn't work out that way, ofc. but there are a ton of MM factors (prum pointed out one I never think about in another thread) and they don't combine well or easily.

I think they were called Rainbow Unicorn Stampede. Their best player was their PT, I think. They were strong in regs, but I don't really recall seeing them in rated warzones vey much at all. I think we may have seen them once, in a Huttball if I recall. Either way, it was not really a game. 

It's kindof weird because usually if a team was strong in regs they'd at least be decent in rateds. I remember them seeming really strong in regs but just a lot more like the casual guilds in rateds. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Skolops

[TrixxieTriss]

2 hours ago, Wulfurkin said:

Im trying to set aside frustration and keep an open mind but what could i as a new player possibly do to have any sort of relevance in the pvp game mode. If i jump into a match im going to be face down most of the time, im not learning anything and im clearly a drag on the rest of the team.  Ive noticed my progression in operations so i know i can learn this game but pvp seems to be either crushing defeat or stomping on everyone else, there is no middle ground for me to progress through so i can at least be competitve and maybe actually start having fun with it.

I’m assuming you’re playing lvl 80 character(s). With Bioware having now removed ranked PvP as a seperate category & mixing seasoned ranked players into the general PvP population, you’re kind of playing the PvP equivalent of a mastermode operation instead of progressing from story mode to learn in.

Sadly there aren’t any short cuts to getting better at PvP than just playing & practicing, it’s how most of us learned. It’s very similar to how PvP was before ranked Arena was introduced. Dropped in the deep end. The difference is we use to practice pvping as we lvl’d up & didn’t wait to max lvl to start PvP. 

If you want to be more prepared. My unsolicited advice would be to start some new characters & speed lvl them up in Pve to about lvl 18-20. Then mostly lvl them the rest of the way in PvP. By the time you get them to lvl 80, you will have learnt the PvP basics of each map & hopefully your class. I personally did this for many years & I’m sure many others have too. 

At the same time, search the forums for some how to pvp guides. Snave did a few & they’ll have links to his video footage. He talks about tactics & strategy for WZ’s the most of any streamer I’ve watched. So the videos are still relevant, even if our class abilities have changed over time. 

The other thing to do for lvl 80 PvP is find out what the best min / max stats are for you class/spec. Some classes don’t perform very well if you have the wrong secondary stats. 

Lastly, practice. If you have anyone you can dual with, that’s a non serious way to learn your class. You can also practice on training dummies. Only they don’t hit back & don’t allow you to practice your DCD’s or proc certain buffs.

Im sure if you continue to reach out to the community, you’ll have other offers of help too. 
 

Here’s a link to one of Snave’s guides. It’s still actually 100% relevant today.

 https://forums.swtor.com/topic/813572-pvp-guide-player-distribution-aka-how-to-count-to-8/#comment-8737167

This is also a link to his YouTube page & his guides.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5KGqIb-a7FQ

Edited April 10, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Shwarzchild]

On 4/8/2023 at 1:00 PM, Skolops said:

1 hour ago, Wulfurkin said:

I sadly dont get much of a chance to practice as im usually ganked within seconds i step out of the spawn area. I have already looked at guides on dps rotations and gearing but there is no way to actually apply any of the things i might learn this way, I dont get the chance and most of the pvp community seems content to keep it that way which baffles me. I have mentioned this in another post, its almost as if they want their own favorite gamemode to bleed to death as nobody new is ever going to stick around if every match is mostly about them being defeated nonstop. Its not like operations where if one isnt popular the developers can simply jump in and do something. You need an influx of people and new players need room to grow, Ive spent many years in real life competitive spots and have seen plenty a club die because all the focus went to the experienced top tier performers. They never stick around forever and then there isnt anyone to replace them. I see something very similar happening to pvp in this game. All these ex ranked kill squads are going to move on eventually after they have driven away every new player in the game and then where will pvp be?

This is your frustration coming through.  Try to take a breath.  Trixie gave you a really good way to increase your abilities in pvp and that was create a new character and level them through pvp.  It's a fantastic suggestion.  It's the best one you can get.

If you don't want to go that route, and want to learn at the max level it will be difficult. And, you will experience a lot of frustration. So be prepared for it. Don't get too down if you get blown up quickly.  Your first learning experience is right at that start.  The question to ask is "how do I survive that initial burst?"  Maybe the answer is delay your attack until the other team has engaged with other players.  Maybe the answer is "what defensive should I pop the moment I see them closing in on me?" If they're on top of you then you've waited too long.  Surviving is the very first lesson even the average pvp player learns.  Focus on surviving.  Damage will come.

Secondly, play in arenas.  4v4 will absolutely force you to learn how to survive.  It will teach you how you should be moving whether it's positioning or kiting. If you're just zerging into the enemy team then stop that first and foremost. 

Learning at the max is going to be a challenge.  I think you're up for it.  But, it will require effort and creativity. If it proves to be too stressful then absolutely take Trixie up on her suggestion and level a new character through pvp.  It really is the best suggestion out there if you're brand new. 
 

 

[septru]

5 hours ago, Wulfurkin said:

Ive noticed my progression in operations so i know i can learn this game

Just like you group up in operations, find a group for PvP. Reach out to people you recognize in the warzone. PM enemies who you notice are particularly good. Try to find some PvP guilds; most are small, but some do exist. Just ask "hey I noticed.... want to group up for pvp?"

 

3 hours ago, Wulfurkin said:

All these ex ranked kill squads are going to move on eventually after they have driven away every new player in the game and then where will pvp be?

 

Premading is probably the most effective way at becoming a better player. All these "ex-ranked kill squads" also started where you are now. But instead of blaming the gamemode, they grouped up and asked for advice. At the end of the day, there is no alternative to asking a friend who has seen you play for specific feedback on your gameplay. There are many players on these forums that endlessly QQ about premades for 17k forum posts. They want you to believe that premading is a crime against humanity, and everyone that premades will be sent to hell. It's incredibly disingenuous. I recommend ignoring them. Many of them are not very good themselves and blame premades to cope. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by septru

[Prapcaster]

3 hours ago, septru said:

Just like you group up in operations, find a group for PvP. Reach out to people you recognize in the warzone. PM enemies who you notice are particularly good. Try to find some PvP guilds; most are small, but some do exist. Just ask "hey I noticed.... want to group up for pvp?"

 

 

Premading is probably the most effective way at becoming a better player. All these "ex-ranked kill squads" also started where you are now. But instead of blaming the gamemode, they grouped up and asked for advice. At the end of the day, there is no alternative to asking a friend who has seen you play for specific feedback on your gameplay. There are many players on these forums that endlessly QQ about premades for 17k forum posts. They want you to believe that premading is a crime against humanity, and everyone that premades will be sent to hell. It's incredibly disingenuous. I recommend ignoring them. Many of them are not very good themselves and blame premades to cope. 

Taylala is a pretty good example of all this. I'll be real when she first started queueing ranked a season or two ago she was a pretty easy kill. But she's been askiNG around and hanging out with better players and has gradually become tons better from doing this. Most people just like to blame other people for where they're at.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Prapcaster

[TrixxieTriss]

8 hours ago, Wulfurkin said:

I sadly dont get much of a chance to practice as im usually ganked within seconds i step out of the spawn area. I have already looked at guides on dps rotations and gearing but there is no way to actually apply any of the things i might learn this way, I dont get the chance and most of the pvp community seems content to keep it that way which baffles me. I have mentioned this in another post, its almost as if they want their own favorite gamemode to bleed to death as nobody new is ever going to stick around if every match is mostly about them being defeated nonstop. Its not like operations where if one isnt popular the developers can simply jump in and do something. You need an influx of people and new players need room to grow, Ive spent many years in real life competitive spots and have seen plenty a club die because all the focus went to the experienced top tier performers. They never stick around forever and then there isnt anyone to replace them. I see something very similar happening to pvp in this game. All these ex ranked kill squads are going to move on eventually after they have driven away every new player in the game and then where will pvp be?

A few years ago my wife was in a similar position to you. She’d never PvP & I talked her into trying. But at max lvl she was getting annihilated & not having a good time.

I started grouping with her to explain the maps & tactics. She was very frustrated because she would always get targeted first in arena & if I wasn’t next to her in a WZ, she would panic. She said she couldn’t get better if she was always dead.

That’s when I said she should create another character & lvl them up in PvP. She didn’t want to at first, but when she did, her PvP skills improved dramatically & she started having fun.

She was able to do this by herself & I would occasionally join her in the queue. But lowbie PvP weren’t popping as fast as they are now. So we didn’t group up very much, which meant I was often on the opposite team.

She actually learnt more when I was on the opposite team in arena because I would tell her who to attack first & when we’d actually fight, I would critique her attacks. 

We would also duel a lot outside of pvp, basically anywhere it lets you. I also setup a duelling ring with obstacles in the Rishi SH to teach her 1v1 tactics & how to LOS & when to use DCD’s. 

These are all things I did in the PvP guilds I belonged to over the years. So if you can find a good PvP guild to join or some people you can hang with between matches in a SH or Guild ship to duel, that will help too. 

[TrixxieTriss]

2 hours ago, Wulfurkin said:

These are solid suggestions but im having trouble believing it makes much of a difference. There seem to be mechanics present in pvp that arent found anywhere else or at least arent relevant outside pvp. Youve mentioned some, like the burst damage, immunities, slows and resolve. This is exploited by longtime pvp players having them do millions of dps every warzone and insta kill others during arenas. As there is no learning curve for such mechanics im not seeing a way i could be competitive with these people. Its not like operations where the mechanics start to make sense over time and with enough tries. Im already at the level of frequently diving into hm ops and when my gear improves ill be found in master ops as well. There is a clear progression and im enjoying it. I cant say the same for my attempts in pvp, which have so far been a frustrating, tedious and unrewarding affair.

There are of course mechanics that mostly happen in PvP. There is a learning curve, it can be learnt. But it takes time & the way you do that is playing lowbie & max lvl PvP to practice.

You can get a head start on identifying certain mechanics by watching Snaves PTSD YouTube vids.

Lastly you need to understand that pvp will always be harder than PVE to master because operations & flash points are predictable & most good players aren’t. 

I don’t know what else to say. The issue you’re having is lack of experience & you’ll only get that from playing more. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[AwesomeTacoCat]

This may sound crazy but my view is that the easiest way to learn how to pvp is to pve. Hear me out. 
 

In my view the first step is to learn your priorities or rotation. At a minimum you need to know how to do damage or to heal effectively. Once you can do those things competently I’d say you’re ready for pvp. In other words, once you can put out somewhat respectable numbers on a dummy parse or in operations, then you’re ready to dip into pvp. Prior to that, you’re literally worthless to your team. Not being able to dps/heal effectively puts you below the bar to really be useful at anything other than guarding a node and calling for help. 
 

I’d say 90%+ of new pvpers are basically doing less damage than basic attack. If so, YOU ARE NOT READY FOR PVP. Once you have mastered the basics of static rotations without substantial pressure, then I say it’s time to learn how to move while doing damage/healing and how to use your dcds effectively. Once you’re somewhat competent using dcds and moving while attacking and also doing good damage, you’re now better than 90% of pvpers in this game currently. Then learn the warzone maps and arena strats and what not. All of that stuff is icing on the cake at this point. 
 

This is how I learned at least. I came into pvp as a pve player who could pump damage/heals with mostly anyone. And I wasn’t good because I was a turret that didn’t know how to use dcds, but I was at least competent enough given the relatively low skill level of many pvpers. Then I learned to move and use dcds, that just came with playing more and watching better players. 
 

Tldr: Become competent at actually doing damage/healing while standing still. The majority of pvpers cannot even do this. Then start pvping - if your damage isn’t terrible then you’re probably better than most now. Once you step into pvp, you need to learn how to move and effectively use dcds. Once you’ve learned that you’re in the top 10% of pvpers I’d say. Then learn all the fancy things like hard swapping, kill orders, warzone tricks,  disrupting healers, effectively using mezzes, etc. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by AwesomeTacoCat

[septru]

3 minutes ago, AwesomeTacoCat said:

This may sound crazy but my view is that the easiest way to learn how to pvp is to pve.

Also, ever since they removed ranked there has been no endgame PvPers creating guides, streaming on twitch, or just able to offer tips. They all left the game. At this point, the only guides left in the game are probably for endgame PvE. 

[Sappharan]

23 hours ago, septru said:

Just like you group up in operations, find a group for PvP. Reach out to people you recognize in the warzone. PM enemies who you notice are particularly good. Try to find some PvP guilds; most are small, but some do exist. Just ask "hey I noticed.... want to group up for pvp?"

 

 

Premading is probably the most effective way at becoming a better player. All these "ex-ranked kill squads" also started where you are now. But instead of blaming the gamemode, they grouped up and asked for advice. At the end of the day, there is no alternative to asking a friend who has seen you play for specific feedback on your gameplay. There are many players on these forums that endlessly QQ about premades for 17k forum posts. They want you to believe that premading is a crime against humanity, and everyone that premades will be sent to hell. It's incredibly disingenuous. I recommend ignoring them. Many of them are not very good themselves and blame premades to cope. 

Fair enough...

But would *you* invite some significantly lesser skilled player to group or accept a request for a group?  No, I am not asking for myself.  And no, it's not your job to help people, but your complaints about OUR complaints won't be as valid if you're not willing to help.  You once said or posted that everyone should get into ranked; that expanding the pool of players would only help the game-mode. 

Given the toxicity (I hate that word, honestly...but it is accurate) in ranked that I encountered, even when I performed well (or well enough), it's hard to believe that a skilled player would accept ANYONE who is viewed as less than.  You may take my meaning.  There are a couple who have and do, though I will not name them, but those players may be the exception and not the rule.  People can be pretty impatient.  It is my experience that competitive people are often less so.  I am competitive...just not at games.

 

All I have ever argued is that 8mans are too much, particularly if they're full of skilled players.  However, Premades CAN be a lot of fun, but 4mans should be the limit.

On 4/7/2023 at 7:30 PM, septru said:

1) Eliminate winrate based MMR. Winrate doesn't represent skill or competition anyways. You can get a 90% winrate queing with a premade, and have a 10% winrate queing by yourself. All it does it is add just another variable in an already overly complicated matchmaking algorithm. 

2) Reduce the maximum premade size to 4 in warzones and 2 in arenas. The premade vs pug problem wasn't as bad before 8 man premades. Cutting the maximum premade size in half would also effectively double the amount of premades in que to put premades against eachother. 

.... but then again BioWare. 😕 So they probably will never admit that their game could be better. 

Point 1 seems...I don't know how you came by your information.  If true, I agree with you.

Point 2 is all I am asking.  Well, that and that the deserter debuff be removed.  I don't care how anyone argues it...it's pure bs, and no one will convince me otherwise.

[septru]

23 minutes ago, Sappharan said:

But would *you* invite some significantly lesser skilled player to group or accept a request for a group?

Yes. In fact, my guild is doing this atm. 

24 minutes ago, Sappharan said:

Given the toxicity (I hate that word, honestly...but it is accurate) in ranked that I encountered, even when I performed well (or well enough), it's hard to believe that a skilled player would accept ANYONE who is viewed as less than.

Since they removed ranked, I've experienced more "toxicity" in regs from regstars, than I ever saw in a any ranked game. I'm amazed people can still say ranked was toxic, after I've seen people **** talk in gen chat for a whole voidstar round.

 

34 minutes ago, Sappharan said:

All I have ever argued is that 8mans are too much, particularly if they're full of skilled players. 

You'll find a lot of agreement about 8 mans. Even players that usually group in 8 man premades agree with the fact that they shouldn't be allowed.

 

The difference is when you start advocating for a seperate premade que... which most people reasonable human beings can understand is a terrible idea. 

[krackcommando]

9 minutes ago, septru said:

You'll find a lot of agreement about 8 mans. Even players that usually group in 8 man premades agree with the fact that they shouldn't be allowed.

 

The difference is when you start advocating for a seperate premade que... which most people reasonable human beings can understand is a terrible idea. 

^this 100%

[Sappharan]

3 minutes ago, septru said:

The difference is when you start advocating for a seperate premade que... which most people reasonable human beings can understand is a terrible idea. 

Agreed.  I will cede that point.  Even though I have expressed that it would be interesting to see, for a variety of reasons, I know it would never work.  First and foremost, I know that this is a mmo, and that it is meant to have a social aspect to it.  So maybe I leaned a little hard on that point in the past, but I agree that a solo only queue would not be possible without killing the social aspect of PvP.

[septru]

3 minutes ago, Sappharan said:

Agreed

I'm glad that we can come together as a player base. It's important. Because if there's one thing we can agree on, it's that BioWare has no clue what they're doing. 

[TrixxieTriss]

11 hours ago, septru said:

Also, ever since they removed ranked there has been no endgame PvPers creating guides, streaming on twitch, or just able to offer tips. They all left the game. At this point, the only guides left in the game are probably for endgame PvE. 

This is true. But it’s also why I suggested Snave’s PTSD guides because they focus more on map mechanics, tactic’s & strategy in PvP.

[TrixxieTriss]

13 hours ago, AwesomeTacoCat said:

This may sound crazy but my view is that the easiest way to learn how to pvp is to pve. Hear me out. 
 

In my view the first step is to learn your priorities or rotation. At a minimum you need to know how to do damage or to heal effectively. Once you can do those things competently I’d say you’re ready for pvp. In other words, once you can put out somewhat respectable numbers on a dummy parse or in operations, then you’re ready to dip into pvp. Prior to that, you’re literally worthless to your team. Not being able to dps/heal effectively puts you below the bar to really be useful at anything other than guarding a node and calling for help. 
 

I’d say 90%+ of new pvpers are basically doing less damage than basic attack. If so, YOU ARE NOT READY FOR PVP. Once you have mastered the basics of static rotations without substantial pressure, then I say it’s time to learn how to move while doing damage/healing and how to use your dcds effectively. Once you’re somewhat competent using dcds and moving while attacking and also doing good damage, you’re now better than 90% of pvpers in this game currently. Then learn the warzone maps and arena strats and what not. All of that stuff is icing on the cake at this point. 
 

This is how I learned at least. I came into pvp as a pve player who could pump damage/heals with mostly anyone. And I wasn’t good because I was a turret that didn’t know how to use dcds, but I was at least competent enough given the relatively low skill level of many pvpers. Then I learned to move and use dcds, that just came with playing more and watching better players. 
 

Tldr: Become competent at actually doing damage/healing while standing still. The majority of pvpers cannot even do this. Then start pvping - if your damage isn’t terrible then you’re probably better than most now. Once you step into pvp, you need to learn how to move and effectively use dcds. Once you’ve learned that you’re in the top 10% of pvpers I’d say. Then learn all the fancy things like hard swapping, kill orders, warzone tricks,  disrupting healers, effectively using mezzes, etc. 

Having a good understanding of your class & combat abilities in PvE certainly helps. And you’re right, if you don’t already have that before you enter PvP, it will be fundamentally more difficult.

[TrixxieTriss]

5 hours ago, Wulfurkin said:

I like this take and it was actually my approach so far. What i struggle with is how useless my lessons from pve appear to be in pvp. As i said in a previous post, im not totally clueless about this game. Im confident i know the proper dps rotations for the classes i play since ive been able to tackle hard bosses during operations that can only be conquered if every group member pulls their weight. Why is it that with this knowledge and with the proper gear i can still at best put out 3-4 million dps in a warzone even though every match has players who are able to deal out 12-15 million. I have the gear, the augments, the stims, so what i am i missing?

Lots of it comes down to more advanced concepts. Like knowing all the other class specs, their DCD’s, being able to identify them visually & knowing when to hardswap to another target. So that you don’t waste your biggest hits on someone whose just popped a DCD that will counter you.

You have pvp centric mechanics like resolve, knowing how it works & when best to use a mezz or hard stun. This can only be practiced in PvP & no amount of PvE practice will help.

It’s why I’m suggesting you make some new characters & only lvl them in PvP to practice. Start with your main fav classes.

But if you really want to be good, you’ll try making one of each main PvP centric class to learn the strengths & weaknesses of each of them.

Sometimes you learn more about your favourite classes by playing their actual counter classes. The ones that you have the most trouble playing against in PvP. 

Pve, can only prepare you for the basics of PvP. Once you have those basics done, which it sounds like you do, then it’s practice & looking for more advanced knowledge from players or watching streams.

There is no real short cut. And unless you’re a gaming savant, you’ll just need to gain experience through practice. The same as the rest of us have learnt to PvP. I’ve suggested the path to take that’s has the easiest learning curve. The rest is up to you.

Edit: FYI, being good at PvP will make you a fundamentally much better pve player. But being a good pver, will only prepare you for PvP, it won’t make you good at PvP. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Samcuu]

On 4/10/2023 at 9:45 PM, Wulfurkin said:

These are solid suggestions but im having trouble believing it makes much of a difference. There seem to be mechanics present in pvp that arent found anywhere else or at least arent relevant outside pvp. Youve mentioned some, like the burst damage, immunities, slows and resolve. This is exploited by longtime pvp players having them do millions of dps every warzone and insta kill others during arenas. As there is no learning curve for such mechanics im not seeing a way i could be competitive with these people. Its not like operations where the mechanics start to make sense over time and with enough tries. Im already at the level of frequently diving into hm ops and when my gear improves ill be found in master ops as well. There is a clear progression and im enjoying it. I cant say the same for my attempts in pvp, which have so far been a frustrating, tedious and unrewarding affair.

You can't compare pvp and pve it's not remotely the same. Pve is scripted. In pvp you react to your environment and the players you are against. You have to understand how they are playing their class and how to counter what they are trying to do. 

It's already been suggested but the best way to do this is to join veteran players. I've told this story before but when the game launched I was a pvp noob and my wow veteran friends taught me how to pvp in an mmo like swtor/wow. 

Not only that but they can give you tips on gearing (which is extremely important in swtor), they can help you with your stat priorities, which tactical/set bonuses you should be using, which abilities to take in ur skill tree ect. Again pvp and pve are different and there are skills you can take in your class tree that will be more viable in pvp than pve. This is the way the pvp community grows. 

So yeah join a pvp guild or at the minimum a larger scale conquest guild who runs pvp nights. Not everyone is extremely social but being in voice comms helps as well, and it's a lot more fun/more memorable to enjoy pvp nights with friends. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Samcuu

[AwesomeTacoCat]

11 hours ago, Wulfurkin said:

I like this take and it was actually my approach so far. What i struggle with is how useless my lessons from pve appear to be in pvp. As i said in a previous post, im not totally clueless about this game. Im confident i know the proper dps rotations for the classes i play since ive been able to tackle hard bosses during operations that can only be conquered if every group member pulls their weight. Why is it that with this knowledge and with the proper gear i can still at best put out 3-4 million dps in a warzone even though every match has players who are able to deal out 12-15 million. I have the gear, the augments, the stims, so what i am i missing?

Good questions! A few things: (1) do you have Star parse? If so, check out your actions per minute. For many people this is a big issue: on most classes you should be at least at 40 APMs, and on some classes like lightning or melee specs it’s even higher than that. Pushing more buttons = more damage. (2) Your rotation/priorities still might need honing. (3) You do need to tweak the pve rotations a little bit for optimal pve damage. For instance, if you’re playing a dot class with a fixed rotation you may need to adjust on the fly to the situation And that takes time to learn. (4) Cleave can be a big part of pvp damage that isn’t nearly as important in many pve encounters. Learning to dot spread, effectively use aoe is a bit of a learning curve relative to pve and can make a massive difference In dps output in warzones. (5) Finally, you said you’ve done operations that require everyone pull their weight, but have you actually seen your Star parse numbers and confirmed you were in fact pulling your weight? Outside of NiM gods, you can carry people through every operation, so it is possible that you were carried harder than you thought if you weren’t actually seeing your dps output In operations. If you’re pulling 25-30k dps in HM/NiM operations then I’d say you’re good enough for pvp. Hope that’s helpful…

[AwesomeTacoCat]

7 hours ago, Samcuu said:

You can't compare pvp and pve it's not remotely the same. Pve is scripted. In pvp you react to your environment and the players you are against. You have to understand how they are playing their class and how to counter what they are trying to do. 

It's already been suggested but the best way to do this is to join veteran players. I've told this story before but when the game launched I was a pvp noob and my wow veteran friends taught me how to pvp in an mmo like swtor/wow. 

Not only that but they can give you tips on gearing (which is extremely important in swtor), they can help you with your stat priorities, which tactical/set bonuses you should be using, which abilities to take in ur skill tree ect. Again pvp and pve are different and there are skills you can take in your class tree that will be more viable in pvp than pve. This is the way the pvp community grows. 

So yeah join a pvp guild or at the minimum a larger scale conquest guild who runs pvp nights. Not everyone is extremely social but being in voice comms helps as well, and it's a lot more fun/more memorable to enjoy pvp nights with friends. 

I just disagree. The FUNDAMENTALS are exactly the same - have decent healing/dps output (tanking is totally different but I never recommend new players start out pvp tanking). Most pvpers these days don’t even come close to doing an acceptable amount of damage/healing because they don’t understand the most basic concepts of how to effectively play their class. All I'm saying is learn how to do that first in a static/scripted environment THEN learn to do the more complicated things in pvp like use dcds, kite, figure out effective use of stuns/mezzes/resolve, knockbacks, interrupts, etc. Even if you can’t do those things and can solely pump decent hps/dps numbers, you’re way ahead of the curve at this point given current average skill level. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by AwesomeTacoCat

[LD_Little_Dragon]

4 hours ago, Wulfurkin said:

Ive never used star parse before, my main way to review my dps numbers has always been simply to watch the big hits that i do and the numbers that appear on my targets. If i manage to do a 40.000 hit and i mess around with buffs and rotations a little until it turns into a 60.000 hit then i know im improving and playing my class better.

For pvp that might work, since it's all about the burst attacks, although it mostly trains you to stack crits for bigger hits.

For pve?  No.  Do yourself a favour and try starparse unless you only pvp now.

[TrixxieTriss]

1 hour ago, Wulfurkin said:

I dont really understand the burst mechanic, it seems to be present only in pvp and probably is why im getting downed in 3 or 4 constantly.  Regardless all i can do is try to get bigger hits from better rotations and better gear and possibly avoid the players who are exploiting this secret mechanic.

PvP is more about priorities & loading up dps as fast as possible. Getting a full rotation off is rarely a thing unless your opponent is bad.

What you want to do is work out the best combo attacks within your rotations. With practice, you’ll work out how to time those attacks & keep your energy up.

But remember one thing, don’t pause you’re attacks to wait for a big hit. If you aren’t hitting you target constantly, your DPS drops.

One way to keep it up is to use your filler spam ability(s). I usually have this keybound to one of my mouse side buttons & I spam it if nothing is ready or I need a filler. 
 

Edited April 13, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

58 minutes ago, Wulfurkin said:

Ill try to keep your advice in mind, though i still have trouble grasping how some players are able to do 15 million or more dps in a single warzone. I know people complain about meta specs on these forums a lot but i know this isnt true, ive seen many different classes appear on the scoreboard at the end of matches holding such numbers.

The way to do that is to not let up doing damage all match. That means hard swapping to your next target when someone pops immunities or DCD’s or knowing which DPS abilities ignore them. You also don’t want to die because respawning constantly eats into your DPS.

But you’ll also find that most of those players doing extremely high numbers aren’t concentrating on doing objectives. They will never guard, ball carry & probably never click to capture a node.

And while it’s good to have some of them on your team, you don’t want a whole team or you’ll never have anyone willing to guard, ball carry or click a node. That’s how matches turn into TDM’s and you can easily lose against less capable combat players who play the objectives.

The top DPS players will ALL be keybinders & mouse turners & most likely ex-ranked arena players. If you aren’t keybinding & mouse turning, you will never hit their numbers. If you can learn to KB properly, it will increase your DPS. But not everyone can or is willing to learn.

You can still do reasonable numbers as a hybrid-clicker-keybinder. Which is what many of us do on our gaming mice. Even a FPS mouse with limited buttons usually allows you to keybind 4-12 abilities if you use the Alt or/& Shift keys. But a MOBA or MMO mouse will give you more keybind options. 

Lastly, ping can also make a big difference to your DPS in PvP. But only if it’s over 150+ms. Because once you start going over that, players with lower ping will always have an advantage with things like leaping to you first or getting their DCD’s up faster or blowing you up before yours activate.

High ping also means you’ll miss a lot more because you may be out of position or your abilities mightn’t activate. 

While it’s great to strive to be the Top DPSer in matches, being competent & a team player in objective can be just as beneficial to winning as being the top DPSer. As long as you’re doing reasonably ok with your DPS & not getting blown up every 30 secs in solo combat. I know this first hand because my ping has gone from 19ms to 230ms over the years as the servers closed & moved.

PvP is all about practice & experience. That’s how you get better. You can even learn to play well with high ping (using unorthodox tactics😉).

Edited April 14, 2023 by TrixxieTriss