Basic tips for new DPS players

[NayaruLovegood]

tl;dr:

If your role is damage dealer your target priority is always weaker targets before strong targets, clear out the weaker ones before you join the tank on the strong target. If the only targets are strong targets then the damage dealer needs to stick with the tanks main target so you're not becoming an off-tank in situations you may not be built to do so. This is always true unless otherwise specified for specific encounters.

Note:

Titled it for MM Flashpoints because things change in operations depending on encounters and veteran FP's are built around anything goes so it's not as relevant, but if everyone in the group is paying attention these tips will still help understand most encounters anyway, unless otherwise specified at the time by the group.

Long version:

I play tank or healer almost exclusively. I'm not the best in the world at these but I know my role. Increasingly I find that damage dealers know their role the least and whether I'm tanking or healing I'm often having to work harder than I need to because the DPS are tunnel visioning the target they can spend the most time doing damage on. A good tank will try to get enough aggro on all targets so that very few (or no) enemies will attack the healer, this means hitting every target at least once and then holding aggro on the most threatening target, usually a boss or other strong target - the tank will also AoE or CC mobs when possible to aid in protecting their team. A good damage dealer will mitigate the amount of work the tank has to do to achieve this by taking out the weakest targets first. Weaker targets can do a lot of damage even though they have low health pools, in many encounters a good number of weak targets will do more damage combined than a strong target. Taking out the weaker targets makes the tanks job easier and makes the healers job easier. If the only targets are of similar strength then the DPS need to focus on the same target as the tank unless there is a need for off-tanking of some sort. If you can aoe then aoe! But it will help you to give the tank a chance to get some aoe's out first so that you don't immediately enemies attention to you.

Some info about tanks and healers to help you:
A tank can taunt enemies, this has some downsides: The first downside is that taunts don't have short enough cooldowns to hold aggro on multiple targets on their own. The second downside is that the taunt on its own will only hold aggro for the duration of the taunt. If no one does damage to that target by the time the taunt expires, that target will then attack the healer. It typically takes a single hit on a target to have a higher threat value than the healer generates by healing. As a good damage dealer you will support a tank by clearing up the trash before taking on the tanks main target. If the situation doesn't require destroying the weaker targets you can mitigate bad tanking by hitting targets once to protect your healer from gaining aggro. It is always better for your group that anyone besides the healer has aggro on anything. There are bad tanks out there who will charge in, won't taunt, won't aoe excess mobs and the healer will usually be unable to do anything except for panic heal.

Healers gain a very small amount of threat by healing players who are the target of enemies which is why they often get aggro at the start of an encounter. A healer may have a threat lowering ability or a skill that can entirely drop threat. Threat lowering abilities do not remove aggro, if no one has attacked a target then the healer lowering their threat will not cause the enemy targeting them to choose a new target. If a healer uses a skill that entirely drops threat they then lose the ability to heal the party. So they may be able to protect themselves for a moment but they will not be able to heal you during that time and as soon as their threat drop ends or is cancelled they will once again have the highest threat on any target that hasn't taken damage from tank/dps or isn't suffering from a taunt effect.

I hope this can help someone who plays DPS in MM FP's. Damage dealers doing their job right is one of the most consistent problems I see in MM FP's that puts unnecessary pressure on the tank, and the healer more specifically.

Edited April 27, 2023 by NayaruLovegood

[LD_Little_Dragon]

I'll add that dps should almost always stay behind the boss.  Most boss's have cleaves, and if you are standing with the tank you are taking way more damage then you should be.  A dps needs to both do damage and avoid taking unecessary damage themselves.

Another thing dps can do to get better before jumping into MM fp is to walk into veteran flashpoints and try to solo it.  You learn proper kill order (weak->strong->gold) pretty fast that way.  Unfortunately the veteran flashpoints are so easy now that doing them in a group won't help you improve much.

Also, going solo into vet fp helps you learn when and where to use your interrupts, stuns (if you have them), cleanses and dcds.

... and how to get outta the aoe.  Fire bad.

 

[NayaruLovegood]

Ohh that's actually really good advice! I could further add it might be worth attempting one of the easier MM FP's with two people and companions. My first ever MM FP was as a tank in Esseles with one friend as healer (who also was able to explain mechanics) and companions as DPS. It took a while but I learned a lot more than I otherwise would just randomly joining through groupfinder.

[DeannaVoyager]

This one, and the basic tanking guide should be pinned.

 

I'm not sure if people don't understand the jobs of each role, or if they just don't care what they do, but it's one of the reasons I never heal or tank MM FPs anymore. If I go as a dps, I'll know there is at least one person in the group who is doing their job and 50% less people who aren't. 

[Exocor]

Am 28.3.2023 um 20:47 schrieb NayaruLovegood:

tl;dr:

If your role is damage dealer your target priority is always weaker targets before strong targets, clear out the weaker ones before you join the tank on the strong target. If the only targets are strong targets then the damage dealer needs to stick with the tanks main target so you're not becoming an off-tank in situations you may not be built to do so. This is always true unless otherwise specified for specific encounters.

Note:

Titled it for MM Flashpoints because things change in raids depending on encounters and veteran FP's are built around anything goes so it's not as relevant, but if everyone in the group is paying attention these tips will still help understand most encounters anyway, unless otherwise specified at the time by the group.

Long version:

I play tank or healer almost exclusively. I'm not the best in the world at these but I know my role. Increasingly I find that damage dealers know their role the least and whether I'm tanking or healing I'm often having to work harder than I need to because the DPS are tunnel visioning the target they can spend the most time doing damage on. A good tank will try to get enough aggro on all targets so that very few (or no) enemies will attack the healer, this means hitting every target at least once and then holding aggro on the most threatening target, usually a boss or other strong target. A good damage dealer will mitigate the amount of work the tank has to do to achieve this by taking out the weaker targets first. Weaker targets can do a lot of damage even though they have low health pools, in many encounters a good number of weak targets will do more damage combined than a strong target. Taking out the weaker targets makes the tanks job easier and makes the healers job easier. If the only targets are of similar strength then the DPS need to focus on the same target as the tank unless there is a need for off-tanking of some sort.

To understand a bit better why this is:
A tank can taunt enemies, this has some downsides: The first downside is that taunts don't have short enough cooldowns to hold aggro on multiple targets on their own. The second downside is that the taunt on its own will only hold aggro for the duration of the taunt. If no one does damage to that target by the time the taunt expires, that target will then attack the healer. It typically takes a single hit on a target to have a higher threat value than the healer generates by healing. As a good damage dealer you will support a tank by clearing up the trash before taking on the tanks main target. If the situation doesn't require destroying the weaker targets you can mitigate bad tanking by hitting targets once to protect your healer from gaining aggro. It is always better for your group that anyone besides the healer has aggro on anything. There are bad tanks out there who will charge in, won't taunt, won't aoe excess mobs and the healer will usually be unable to do anything except for panic heal.

Healers gain a very small amount of threat by healing players who are the target of enemies which is why they often get aggro at the start of an encounter. A healer may have a threat lowering ability or a skill that can entirely drop threat. Threat lowering abilities do not remove aggro, if no one has attacked a target then the healer lowering their threat will not cause the enemy targeting them to choose a new target. If a healer uses a skill that entirely drops threat they then lose the ability to heal the party. So they may be able to protect themselves for a moment but they will not be able to heal you during that time and as soon as their threat drop ends or is cancelled they will once again have the highest threat on any target that hasn't taken damage from tank/dps or isn't suffering from a taunt effect.

I hope this can help someone who plays DPS in MM FP's. Damage dealers doing their job right is one of the most consistent problems I see in MM FP's that puts unnecessary pressure on the tank, and the healer more specifically.

 

 

Please don't take this personally, but there is a lot of incorrect information and solutions that are searching for problems in your text.

 

Zitat

If your role is damage dealer your target priority is always weaker targets before strong targets, clear out the weaker ones before you join the tank on the strong target.

 

So, this sounds good on the surface, but it completely ignores a key factor of what you, as a tank, and the player you're directing your advice to, the DPS can do. And that's AoE Damage. From your advice I would imagine that I should go single target DPS from one target to the next. If I'm going to do that, I will not only pull aggro from the target I'm currently DPSing, but also it'll take a long ass time to go through - many classes rely on a certian build up of abilities to do their damage. Killing some standard mobs might only take a few seconds, so you gotta start from scratch every time, further decreasing the damage the DPS I'm doing and it'll lengthen the fight unnecessarily.

However, many DPS classes have AoE abilities that are more than sufficient. Those are often more efficient to use at multiple targets than their single target abilities. Additionally, and here comes some advice for you, it makes it easier for the Tank to maintain aggro on all targets, because I don't generate high threat (DPS -> Threat) on one random target that you can't possibly know beforehand.

 

Zitat

A tank can taunt enemies, this has some downsides: The first downside is that taunts don't have short enough cooldowns to hold aggro on multiple targets on their own. The second downside is that the taunt on its own will only hold aggro for the duration of the taunt. If no one does damage to that target by the time the taunt expires, that target will then attack the healer. It typically takes a single hit on a target to have a higher threat value than the healer generates by healing.

 

You're going by it the wrong way. The DPS are not in the group to support the tanks - it's the other way around. You're not the one killing the targets, the DPS are. It is your job to make it as easy as possible for the DPS to defeat the current encounter. And that means holding aggro of all NPC's involved.

Taunts are also the wrong devices to primary hold aggro. Taunts don't generate aggro on their own. But let's start from the beginning.

If you enter a boss fight, you will start the fight with 1 threat generated on all targets, while everyone else in your group will have 0. If you use Taunt, or even Mass Taunt at that point, you're multiplying that 1 with 1.2 if I remember correctly. So you're holding 1.2 aggro afterwards. That's not an awful lot.

Instead of taunting, you are immediately starting to use your AoE abilities (if there is more than one target in range of, let's say a Flame Sweep or Slow Time). Depending on the situation you can continue with one or two more attacks. There is something in this game that's called an aggro threshold. Someone pulling aggro of a target does not only need to have generated more threat than the one currently holding that NPC, they need to have slightly more (there is also a difference in the threshold if you're below 10 meters or above 10 meters from the target). What this means is, that at the start of the fight, if you're spamming some AoE's, you will always maintain aggro of the targets even if you're not the very first in the list. After three or four GCD's, you can finally use your mass taunt or - in case of good DPS - the weekest enemies are dead already and you can use your single taunt to maintain one stronger enemy, while continue to DPS other strong enemies. Hitting every enemy with one abilities at a time, as you suggest, sounds like you would want to use a Flame Burst on each target in a row. Aside from very very few circumstances, you don't want to do that ever.

I also mentioned that it's your job to support your DPS earlier. As a Tank, you have certain abilities that CC, root, push and/or pull enemies. So what you want do, instead of letting enemies march toward your DPS after your two rapid shots were - who would've guessed - not sufficient in holding aggro against a full single target rotation by a Virulence Sniper, use your grappel to pull the enemey towards you. A Carbonize afterwards, and if the DPS are bombing properly, everything will be dead by the time those NPC's would continue doing DPS again. Yes, you want to get all enemy NPC's as close together as possible and maintain threat for your DPS to use their AoE and Dotspread abilities to do DPS efficiently.

 

Zitat

I hope this can help someone who plays DPS in MM FP's. Damage dealers doing their job right is one of the most consistent problems I see in MM FP's that puts unnecessary pressure on the tank, and the healer more specifically.

 

I disagree. Damage Dealers are usually doing fine. Even the most inexperienced Lightning Sorc will find the button for the Lightning Storm. It's the tanks who let enemies run rampant and have them kill the healers and DPS. No CC's, Mass Taunts at the very beginning and very little AoE is what I'm usually seeing. Contrary to what you said here, it's not the DPS job to manage a group of enemies. That's your job as a tank. You have sufficient abilities for that. When a Healer gets aggro from trashmobs, it's your fault, not the DPS. They're not here to do your job. Otherwie they would be queuing as tanks, no?

 

Btw: This ineptness of tanks has made me adapt a certain mantra when doing trashmobs: If you want to bomb (--> do lots of AoE), move into melee range. All DPS class, with no exception, have DCD's to "tank" enemies for a small period  of time - and I'd rather take a little bit of damage if it means that those mobs don't run towards me, out of my AoE-circles. That's the only advice I would give DPS in Flashpoints these days.

[LD_Little_Dragon]

2 hours ago, Exocor said:

I disagree. Damage Dealers are usually doing fine.

 

 

Do you do MM flashpoints with pugs at all? 

It is incredibly common for dps to jump on the gold droids and whack away, ignoring the adds.  Also increasingly common for the dps to use their knockbacks to scatter adds.   All that ability pruning and the dev's left in that horrible overload that so many bad players use as part of their basic attack rotations now.

When I heal I end up dps'ing the weak mobs way too often, especially the ranged mobs, because the dps ignore them.  It takes me about 3 hits to kill those mobs, it would take the dps one.

And no, just spamming your one aoe ability over and over isn't good enough unless you're only playing the nerfed faceroll content.

*edit: I main dot specs, I know how to kill mobs fast, I also know how to priotize targets while still doing aoe.  Vet fp and the really nerfed MM?  Sure toss one frag grenade and stuff dies.  Actual harder content?  Do a proper rotatation and follow the weak (or healers)-strong-elites kill order.

Edited April 23, 2023 by LD_Little_Dragon

[casirabit]

OP, you have a good view, but I am guessing you come from a different MMO than SWTOR, like FFX, as most of the operations here would be seen as a cakewalk from the raids in FFX. I got in one on FFX last night (it was required for the main story) and it required twenty-four individuals and they were broken up into three teams.  Being new can be confusing but if you follow your group, you do fine.   

The one thing I noticed is that even if they wiped (and we did twice) on a boss, no one yells or gets mad, they just pick themselves up and went back to that particular boss until it is gone and then move to the next boss.  I was pleasantly surprised that they didn't get all upset about it, considering the few I have done here when they get mad. 

Edited April 23, 2023 by casirabit

[RikuvonDrake]

this is a great guide if your tank is terrible at the game and you want to make sure you are balancing their gameplay quality with yours and lower yourself to their level

[Exocor]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb LD_Little_Dragon:

Do you do MM flashpoints with pugs at all? 

It is incredibly common for dps to jump on the gold droids and whack away, ignoring the adds. 

 

Occasionally, when I'm asking by friends.

 

Generally, that's a Tank issue. Get the weaker mobs close to the stronger mobs and they will die from AoE and splash damage. Especially if it's those kinds of weak mobs that you, as a healer, would kill with three spells.

 

[DeannaVoyager]

16 hours ago, Exocor said:

So, this sounds good on the surface, but it completely ignores a key factor of what you, as a tank, and the player you're directing your advice to, the DPS can do. And that's AoE Damage. From your advice I would imagine that I should go single target DPS from one target to the next. If I'm going to do that, I will not only pull aggro from the target I'm currently DPSing, but also it'll take a long ass time to go through - many classes rely on a certian build up of abilities to do their damage. Killing some standard mobs might only take a few seconds, so you gotta start from scratch every time, further decreasing the damage the DPS I'm doing and it'll lengthen the fight unnecessarily.

However, many DPS classes have AoE abilities that are more than sufficient. Those are often more efficient to use at multiple targets than their single target abilities. Additionally, and here comes some advice for you, it makes it easier for the Tank to maintain aggro on all targets, because I don't generate high threat (DPS -> Threat) on one random target that you can't possibly know beforehand.

 

Not all classes are good with AOE, and those who are it should be obvious that's what they need to do.  But if we are talking about aoe, then we also need to talk about corner pulls, letting tank group them up and so on. 

 

Melee mobs come to tank, ranged do not. A competent tank can easily get aggro on melee mobs, and with that it doesn't matter that much which one the dps attacks. For dot specs it's usually a good idea to hit the boss and spread dots on the smaller mobs. For burst specs, I'd pick a possible healer mob, then finish the small ones one by one before boss. If there is a mechanic where you have to burst down the boss fast or more adds will spawn, then hit the boss, obviously. 

 

However if you have group of ranged mobs and you want to group them up behind a corner, most dps don't understand that they also need to go around the corner instead of shooting them from range, possibly slowing them down. The mobs don't go to the tank if ranged dps doesn't hide too. It's also not just the ranged. The times I've seen tank trying to corner pull, but a melee leaping in on the biggest mob in the group, completely nullifying the tank's job... Everything dies slower if the mobs are scattered around, and it's pretty unfair to blame the tank when dps are the ones sabotaging the run by not understanding their role and not letting the tank pull.

 

So if I would add an advice for a dps to the original list, here's a few:

 

- Follow the tank: if the tank goes around the corner, follow them, don't slow down the mobs and prolong the fight. 

- If the tank is clueless, still follow them, let the tank pull. There is no need to make it even harder for them - not to mention the fp takes longer to finish if you deliberately make it harder.

- If you are playing dot spec, put dots on the boss/biggest enemy and spread the dots on the adds, if you are playing burst spec, kill the healers and/or small adds first.

 

17 hours ago, Exocor said:

You're going by it the wrong way. The DPS are not in the group to support the tanks - it's the other way around. You're not the one killing the targets, the DPS are. It is your job to make it as easy as possible for the DPS to defeat the current encounter. And that means holding aggro of all NPC's involved.

 

The DPS are not there to support the tanks, but they are not there to make it harder for the tank or healer either. People should play as a group and support each other in their roles.

 

I think you, me, the OP all speak from different points of view. I guess you have seen a lot of bad tanks, and you are writing from that angle. I've seen those too and sometimes it's frustrating how clueless they can be, so yeah, I hear you. On the other hand I have seen a lot of dps sabotaging otherwise a smooth run with their lack of understanding their own role and the mechanics of the game. I can't speak on behalf of the OP's PoV, but there is nothing wrong in anything they said in the first post. Some things (such as aoe damage) was left out, but that depends on the classes and the situation, who should do that and who shouldn't, when and where they should do it.

 

[Exocor]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb DeannaVoyager:

 

Not all classes are good with AOE, and those who are it should be obvious that's what they need to do.  But if we are talking about aoe, then we also need to talk about corner pulls, letting tank group them up and so on. 

 

Classes that have really lacking AoE are the exception, not the rule. All Snipers can do decent AoE. All Mercs can do decent AoE. All Powertechs can do decent AoE. All Sorcs can do decent AoE. Lethality Operative can do deccent AoE. Carnage and Annihilation Marauders can do decent AoE. Vengance Juggs can do decent AoE. All Shadows can do decent AoE.

That leaves you with three specs that are a bit lacking: Concealment Operative, Rage Jugg and Fury Marauder. And even they have some form of AoE that goes further than "just a frag grenade", even though I would personally not render a final judgement, as I very rarely play Concealment and have never successfully played Rage or Fury. In every case, doing at least some form of AoE damage until you're down to few, if not one target, is more efficient. Don't underestimate the potential many classes have. Lightning Storm, Suppressive Fire and a Dostspread are the beginning of wisdom, not the end.

 

Zitat

Melee mobs come to tank, ranged do not. A competent tank can easily get aggro on melee mobs, and with that it doesn't matter that much which one the dps attacks. For dot specs it's usually a good idea to hit the boss and spread dots on the smaller mobs. For burst specs, I'd pick a possible healer mob, then finish the small ones one by one before boss. If there is a mechanic where you have to burst down the boss fast or more adds will spawn, then hit the boss, obviously. 

 

As I mentioned above, every Tank class has at least one ability to move a stationary target. Powertech has two Grapples, Sin has Force Pull and a Knockback hitting multiple target. Jugg has one single target knock - I give you that it's a bit harder to control multiple ranged enemies with Jugg. But you have a different way of doing that: AoE Taunt and Reflect. The latter one builds a ton of aggro. In no way should any healer get aggro from one of those enemies.

 

What you're writing here sounds like you tried very little, but you're already out of ideas.

 

[DeannaVoyager]

1 hour ago, Exocor said:

 

Classes that have really lacking AoE are the exception, not the rule. All Snipers can do decent AoE. All Mercs can do decent AoE. All Powertechs can do decent AoE. All Sorcs can do decent AoE. Lethality Operative can do deccent AoE. Carnage and Annihilation Marauders can do decent AoE. Vengance Juggs can do decent AoE. All Shadows can do decent AoE.

That leaves you with three specs that are a bit lacking: Concealment Operative, Rage Jugg and Fury Marauder. And even they have some form of AoE that goes further than "just a frag grenade", even though I would personally not render a final judgement, as I very rarely play Concealment and have never successfully played Rage or Fury. In every case, doing at least some form of AoE damage until you're down to few, if not one target, is more efficient. Don't underestimate the potential many classes have. Lightning Storm, Suppressive Fire and a Dostspread are the beginning of wisdom, not the end.

 

 

You forgot deception and arsenal, but doesn't matter, we are not talking about classes. You clearly missed the point I was trying to make. The point was aoe classes should know how and when to aoe without someone having to mention it to them. The bits of information you are giving is problematic because it doesn't cover different situations and different classes. You can't just tell people to "aoe everything down", it's not that simple and it's not efficient Obviously everything needs to die, but how it's done and how long it's going to take depends on how well people understand their class and role. Hence what OP wrote in the guide about dps's job (and kill order) is important. 

 

2 hours ago, Exocor said:

As I mentioned above, every Tank class has at least one ability to move a stationary target. Powertech has two Grapples, Sin has Force Pull and a Knockback hitting multiple target. Jugg has one single target knock - I give you that it's a bit harder to control multiple ranged enemies with Jugg. But you have a different way of doing that: AoE Taunt and Reflect. The latter one builds a ton of aggro. In no way should any healer get aggro from one of those enemies.

 

This thread is about dps, not tanking. But since you insist, let's continue on that. Sin and PT can pull mobs, yes, juggs can't so you can't say every tank class can do this or that. Juggs being able to push a target somewhere is completely useless if the idea is to get aggro (tank's job). Same goes for sin knockback. It's counterproductive to knock the mobs all over the place if the idea is to kill them. According to you, dps should only aoe everything, so good luck, the natural dot spreading classes are not going to spread anything if a sin tank pushes the mobs away and killing them is now going to take longer.  All tanks have gap closers, but they have long cooldowns. Saber reflect has a long cooldown. Aoe taunt has a long cooldown.  Aoe taunt is not even needed if people would just let the tank pull. But no. Flashpoints are full of them leroys who don't know the mechanics, their classes or understand the roles in the group. Hence why a guide for dps is needed (not that they'd even bother reading one). 

 

2 hours ago, Exocor said:

What you're writing here sounds like you tried very little, but you're already out of ideas.

 

Then maybe you should re-read what I wrote. Or maybe you are talking about yourself? I don't know because you are not making any sense with that. What does it have to do with the topic?

 

[ZUHFB]

On 4/24/2023 at 9:24 AM, DeannaVoyager said:

However if you have group of ranged mobs and you want to group them up behind a corner, most dps don't understand that they also need to go around the corner instead of shooting them from range

16 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

This thread is about dps, not tanking.

the adds don't move because a dps has threat of them because the tank didn't bother, thus the dps is tanking the add and that is why @Exocor was talking about tanking

honestly quite obvious, dps do not have to move around the corner if they don't get any threat. 

[DeannaVoyager]

2 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

the adds don't move because a dps has threat of them because the tank didn't bother, thus the dps is tanking the add and that is why @Exocor was talking about tanking

honestly quite obvious, dps do not have to move around the corner if they don't get any threat. 

The adds don't move because a clueless dps is not paying attention to what the tank is doing, and is aggroing them while the tank is trying to group them up for aoe.

 

You really should have quoted the whole thing where I explained it how it works.  Don't blame tanks for dps's mistakes. This is the exact reason why dps need a basic guide in the first place. 

 

If you want to argue about tanking, there is a different area for it: https://forums.swtor.com/forum/50-tanking/

It doesn't belong here.

Edited April 25, 2023 by DeannaVoyager
added link to the forum about tanking

[Exocor]

 

Zitat

This thread is about dps, not tanking. But since you insist,

 

"Let me tell you that you are not supposed to write what you have been writing here, because this topic has nothing to do with it. But after I do that, I'd like to have the last word in."

What kind of conversation style is that? If we're off-topic, a mod can show up and tell us. Tanking and DPSing cannot and should not be insular topics. They are intertwined.

Earlier it was brought up that I was seeing this from the perspective of having a bad tank and trying to compensate. Quite the opposite: I'm saying what optimal tanking should look like and how DPS should act in that case. Don't get me wrong. I'm a huge fan of being able to compensate the mistakes of others, but do we really want to adapt sub-optimal play because of others? Because that's what single target DPSing one enemy at a time is. On high level content, no one would ever have the idea of doing something like that. Every target has to fall - so doing "boss"-damage, while spreading/fluffing/AoEing the rest is the go-to-alternative.

 

 

vor 20 Stunden schrieb DeannaVoyager:

You forgot deception and arsenal, but doesn't matter, we are not talking about classes.

 

Deception and Arsenal both have AoE-abilitites that work in a circle - Lacerate for the Deception Sin and Death from Above and that other thingy for Arsenal. The AoE-Tactical for Arsenal is quite interesting too - the same goes for Deception. Saying those classes don't have decent AoE reveals your lacking knowledge about those classes.

Zitat

You clearly missed the point I was trying to make. The point was aoe classes should know how and when to aoe without someone having to mention it to them.

On that we can agree. But that wasn't my point of critizism.

 

vor 20 Stunden schrieb DeannaVoyager:

The bits of information you are giving is problematic because it doesn't cover different situations and different classes. You can't just tell people to "aoe everything down", it's not that simple and it's not efficient Obviously everything needs to die, but how it's done and how long it's going to take depends on how well people understand their class and role. Hence what OP wrote in the guide about dps's job (and kill order) is important. 

 

I guess here we have to agree to disagree. In 90% of situations spamming blindly AoE into a group, so that it hits the most targets, works. Healers in flashpoints do not have the capacity to heal up their group against two DPS doing AoE and a Tank. But they do sometimes have the capacity to heal themselves up against a half-assed single target attack by one DPS, and a tank failing around by hitting each target once, as OP suggested. OP said that DPS can take aggro of some mobs for a short period of time. That's right. So move in so enemies you pull aggro from don't run after you, then place your AoE so it hits everything. Many classes can "prepare" their AoE while moving in (dots and precasts). If you want, you can place a well-timed interrupt on a healing enemy - off GCD by the way, so you don't lose damage - but most of the time it shouldn't matter.

 

vor 20 Stunden schrieb DeannaVoyager:

This thread is about dps, not tanking. But since you insist, let's continue on that. Sin and PT can pull mobs, yes, juggs can't so you can't say every tank class can do this or that. Juggs being able to push a target somewhere is completely useless if the idea is to get aggro (tank's job). Same goes for sin knockback. It's counterproductive to knock the mobs all over the place if the idea is to kill them. According to you, dps should only aoe everything, so good luck, the natural dot spreading classes are not going to spread anything if a sin tank pushes the mobs away and killing them is now going to take longer.

 

I said move - not pull. You can force push mobs with a Jugg. Pushing adds is a form of moving and, no, you don't push a target somewhere where it doesn't help. It's about pushing targets that are "outsid" of the AoE area into it. You have legs as a Tank. You can move to the target, position yourself in a way that the target is between you and the center of the AoE and then push it in.

This is, by the way, also a good advice for DPS. Push enemy targets into a position where they can die faster. It's not always helpful, and it's not always necessary, but it helps sometimes. That's why were here, no? To give advice that is generally helpful. Obviously not every solution applies in every situation. I imagine people reading this are smart enough to understand that.

 

Zitat

All tanks have gap closers, but they have long cooldowns. Saber reflect has a long cooldown. Aoe taunt has a long cooldown.  Aoe taunt is not even needed if people would just let the tank pull. But no. Flashpoints are full of them leroys who don't know the mechanics, their classes or understand the roles in the group. Hence why a guide for dps is needed (not that they'd even bother reading one). 

 

I think you're underestimating the players in this game. Most of them have the desire, if not to learn what they're doing and why they're paying more then ten bucks a month for a subscription, at least to finish the content they're doing fast and successfull. That's why corner pulls have been established for example - even though more than 90% of them don't really bring you any gain. Nevertheless, people will do something, find out it's problematic and then don't do it. That's why Tanks should lead by example and play optimally, so the DPS can learn good gameplay naturally, instead of trying to teach them some arbitrary kill order using single target abilitites, while there are five mobs waiting to be bombed around the tank.

 

So, you criticized me for only handing out bits of information. Here is my, very short, guide for DPS:

 

1. Follow your tank. Like it or not, you can't play against the tank. If he wants to pull mobs around the corner, better let him do that.

2. The best way to kill mobs is to kill mobs: Use your AoE abilitites to hit as many mobs at the same time as possible. That often leads to the most DPS and the fastest time to kill the mobs.

3. If you play a ranged class, still move into melee range. Otherwise mobs will come running towards you if you lay down your AoE abilities.

4. If there is a healer in the enemy group, use a well-timed interrupt to interrupt his casts or - if tanks and healers didn't do it already - use a stun. Interrupts are preferred, as they can be used off-GCD and don't impair your ability do Damage.

5. In boss fights, things work a bit different. If you switch target while the main boss is still taking damage, make sure you do a soft switch - keep for example Dots running on the boss and, if your new target is close enough, prioritize splash damage. At the end of the day, the boss needs to die.

6. And lastly, it goes without saying, don't pre-pull a group of enemies or let alone a boss unless you have sufficient DCD's to survive it until the tank can use his AoE taunt or most enemies are dead.

 

 

And please, next time someone wants to write a guide, don't start it with "I actually never play DPS". The intention might be good, but if you have no clue what to do, it won't help other people either.

 

 

[LD_Little_Dragon]

2 hours ago, Exocor said:

 

Deception and Arsenal both have AoE-abilitites that work in a circle - Lacerate for the Deception Sin

 

Lacerate?  You really think lacerate is better than single target for decept sin?  In what content?  In both solo and MM fp you get better results from 1v1 adds then using lacerate unless there's like 5 adds stacked up.  I mean really stacked up, when you pug it's rare to get a group that lets adds stack up enough for my 8m bushwack to to hit them all, let alone lacerates 4m range.

This guide is for basic dps'ing in flashpoints and the easier operations.  I don't know where you're coming from, but it's pretty obvious that you don't really pug.  Grabbing 2 or 3 friends and using group-finder is NOT pugging.

Edited April 25, 2023 by LD_Little_Dragon

[DeannaVoyager]

16 hours ago, LD_Little_Dragon said:

Lacerate?  You really think lacerate is better than single target for decept sin?  In what content?  In both solo and MM fp you get better results from 1v1 adds then using lacerate unless there's like 5 adds stacked up.  I mean really stacked up, when you pug it's rare to get a group that lets adds stack up enough for my 8m bushwack to to hit them all, let alone lacerates 4m range.

This guide is for basic dps'ing in flashpoints and the easier operations.  I don't know where you're coming from, but it's pretty obvious that you don't really pug.  Grabbing 2 or 3 friends and using group-finder is NOT pugging.

Agreed.

 

I also just realised I was talking with someone who doesn't quite know what they are talking about. That is why the guide is important. The only people who've been arguing what is the dps's role are the ones who should be reading it. No wonder MM FPs are a mess and getting a tank to queue is like finding a unicorn. 

[Exocor]

vor 22 Stunden schrieb LD_Little_Dragon:

Lacerate?  You really think lacerate is better than single target for decept sin?

 

Like many classes, you obviously don't just spam your one AoE skill - in case of Deception, you would replace Voltaic Slash with Lacerate, if there is more than one enemy. However, I can see an argument for deception to teleport to one enemy after another and discharging them out of their misery - the reset on that ability is putting the class in quite a unique position to do that.

However, even in this situation you might even consider using the AoE tactical, making Discharge arc to multiple targets. I'm pretty sure doing a Discharge arcing to 4 or 5 targets every 4 seconds for 30 seconds is a pretty powerful AoE.

 

Generally, the introduction of Tacticals have brought many classes new AoE-options. Some are worth taking it, some are not. I don't accept "This class is not doing any AoE-damage" as an excuse for doing stupid things.

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Exocor

[LD_Little_Dragon]

1 hour ago, Exocor said:

 

However, even in this situation you might even consider using the AoE tactical, making Discharge arc to multiple targets. I'm pretty sure doing a Discharge arcing to 4 or 5 targets every 4 seconds for 30 seconds is a pretty powerful AoE.

 

No, because to use that tactical you need that idiotic conal ability and that means giving up shroud.   You want a sin/shadow for aoe?  Use hatred.

Shroud shoud always be taken over that conal.

[Crystal_Mind]

30 minutes ago, LD_Little_Dragon said:

No, because to use that tactical you need that idiotic conal ability and that means giving up shroud. 

Nah, they changed the tactical back in October. Now it arcs when you gain a stack of Voltage; no need to use severing slash at all. Still pretty niche, but hardly the worst thing to take for trash packs.

[LD_Little_Dragon]

4 hours ago, Crystal_Mind said:

Nah, they changed the tactical back in October. Now it arcs when you gain a stack of Voltage; no need to use severing slash at all. Still pretty niche, but hardly the worst thing to take for trash packs.

Did they?  I missed that one.  Still probably won't use it, but good to know.

[NayaruLovegood]

Huh, replies. Wasn't expecting that.

1) This guide was aimed as a basic set of tips to help new/inexperienced players doing MM FP's based on the consistent experience I've had with new/inexperienced players in MM FP's since for as long as I can remember. For experienced people it won't be of much help. You already know what you're doing. If you would like to create a detailed guide on what to do in different situations based on different capabilities of different specs then please go ahead and do that. This guide isn't that and I'm not interested in doing that myself. Basic help for newbies is all I sought to bring. With that said I'll edit the original post with some of the additions suggested in this thread.

2) Anyone saying that this advice wouldn't work in ops didn't read my first post where I say this is for MM FP's and not for raids/ops. Your comments are entirely null and void.

3) For anyone who is here to gain a better basic understanding of tanking you may find my similar basic guide for tanking in MM FP's in the tanking forum more helpful. Although it is good to get some understanding on what will help you in terms of guiding your DPS players to support you by improving on their role.

Now that's out of the way. Hi!

On 4/23/2023 at 2:41 PM, Exocor said:

 

 

Please don't take this personally, but there is a lot of incorrect information and solutions that are searching for problems in your text.

 

 

So, this sounds good on the surface, but it completely ignores a key factor of what you, as a tank, and the player you're directing your advice to, the DPS can do. And that's AoE Damage. From your advice I would imagine that I should go single target DPS from one target to the next. If I'm going to do that, I will not only pull aggro from the target I'm currently DPSing, but also it'll take a long ass time to go through - many classes rely on a certian build up of abilities to do their damage. Killing some standard mobs might only take a few seconds, so you gotta start from scratch every time, further decreasing the damage the DPS I'm doing and it'll lengthen the fight unnecessarily.

However, many DPS classes have AoE abilities that are more than sufficient. Those are often more efficient to use at multiple targets than their single target abilities. Additionally, and here comes some advice for you, it makes it easier for the Tank to maintain aggro on all targets, because I don't generate high threat (DPS -> Threat) on one random target that you can't possibly know beforehand.

 

 

You're going by it the wrong way. The DPS are not in the group to support the tanks - it's the other way around. You're not the one killing the targets, the DPS are. It is your job to make it as easy as possible for the DPS to defeat the current encounter. And that means holding aggro of all NPC's involved.

Taunts are also the wrong devices to primary hold aggro. Taunts don't generate aggro on their own. But let's start from the beginning.

If you enter a boss fight, you will start the fight with 1 threat generated on all targets, while everyone else in your group will have 0. If you use Taunt, or even Mass Taunt at that point, you're multiplying that 1 with 1.2 if I remember correctly. So you're holding 1.2 aggro afterwards. That's not an awful lot.

Instead of taunting, you are immediately starting to use your AoE abilities (if there is more than one target in range of, let's say a Flame Sweep or Slow Time). Depending on the situation you can continue with one or two more attacks. There is something in this game that's called an aggro threshold. Someone pulling aggro of a target does not only need to have generated more threat than the one currently holding that NPC, they need to have slightly more (there is also a difference in the threshold if you're below 10 meters or above 10 meters from the target). What this means is, that at the start of the fight, if you're spamming some AoE's, you will always maintain aggro of the targets even if you're not the very first in the list. After three or four GCD's, you can finally use your mass taunt or - in case of good DPS - the weekest enemies are dead already and you can use your single taunt to maintain one stronger enemy, while continue to DPS other strong enemies. Hitting every enemy with one abilities at a time, as you suggest, sounds like you would want to use a Flame Burst on each target in a row. Aside from very very few circumstances, you don't want to do that ever.

I also mentioned that it's your job to support your DPS earlier. As a Tank, you have certain abilities that CC, root, push and/or pull enemies. So what you want do, instead of letting enemies march toward your DPS after your two rapid shots were - who would've guessed - not sufficient in holding aggro against a full single target rotation by a Virulence Sniper, use your grappel to pull the enemey towards you. A Carbonize afterwards, and if the DPS are bombing properly, everything will be dead by the time those NPC's would continue doing DPS again. Yes, you want to get all enemy NPC's as close together as possible and maintain threat for your DPS to use their AoE and Dotspread abilities to do DPS efficiently.

 

 

I disagree. Damage Dealers are usually doing fine. Even the most inexperienced Lightning Sorc will find the button for the Lightning Storm. It's the tanks who let enemies run rampant and have them kill the healers and DPS. No CC's, Mass Taunts at the very beginning and very little AoE is what I'm usually seeing. Contrary to what you said here, it's not the DPS job to manage a group of enemies. That's your job as a tank. You have sufficient abilities for that. When a Healer gets aggro from trashmobs, it's your fault, not the DPS. They're not here to do your job. Otherwie they would be queuing as tanks, no?

 

Btw: This ineptness of tanks has made me adapt a certain mantra when doing trashmobs: If you want to bomb (--> do lots of AoE), move into melee range. All DPS class, with no exception, have DCD's to "tank" enemies for a small period  of time - and I'd rather take a little bit of damage if it means that those mobs don't run towards me, out of my AoE-circles. That's the only advice I would give DPS in Flashpoints these days.

Thanks for the reply. I don't take it personally however I think you're just disagreeing with some points for the sake of disagreeing because you've accurately described several things that I was getting at, then you've told me I'm wrong about them and also unfortunately you've entirely missed several points that I was getting at. All done under the banner of tanking which this thread and forum isn't about tanking - I've actually done a similar basic guide post in the tanking forum, it would make better sense to address tanking discussion there rather than here. But it's a free world and the mods didn't invalidate your discussion of this here so under that parameter we'll consider your discussion here validated I guess.

This basic guide was aimed at new players that want to improve their DPS play in groups with good OR bad tanks. That's why I only gave some minimal information that would be helpful for new DPS players to know about taunting and how healers can get aggro.

My notes on taunt are aimed at DPS players who yell at tanks that they should taunt to keep aggro. It's for the DPS players who don't know that you don't just taunt on cooldown but you use it much more tactically than a rotational skill. If you haven't encountered these then you have been in luck.

You've assumed I mean do not aoe when I've not said anything of the sort. Further to that, being aware of how well the tank is keeping aggro on multiple targets you wouldn't necessarily want to aoe if it means you're going to get multiple targets switching to you. Depends on the situation.

You've talked about taking aggro on single targets as a bad thing. I said in my original post if this is going to be a bad thing you will want to stick with your tanks target. You said targeting one at a time will take a long ass time - If this is true you are targeting something you shouldn't be targeting or your DPS is low. If there's one gold mob, five weak mobs, they're spread out, you're on a melee spec then your aoe probably isn't going to reach them all. In this situation your single target DPS will be better than your aoe. 

There are a number of situations where your explanation is incorrect. Your explanation is correct if the tank has successfully grouped all the mobs together. The problem is that this isn't always possible unless you're going to corner pull every encounter that can be corner pulled. A further problem is that not every tank is skilled enough (yet) to hold aggro on spread out mobs. Another problem is tanks who mass taunt a group and don't understand that if they haven't generated enough threat on targets then those targets will attack the healer or whichever dps has generated more threat when taunt falls off. You have unfortunately tunnel visioned on to "this isn't ideal in an ideal situation based on these assumptions" and then created discussion with regards to that.

If you disagree that DPS are usually fine then your experience vastly differs to mine and the vast majority of experienced puggers I speak with. Besides seeing sub 10k DPS in a lot of runs I do, I also see plenty of situations where tanks, myself included, are running around during spread out encounters making sure they've got enough aggro on everything that nothing will fall off on to the healer. Meanwhile the healer is sweating at the amount of damage the tank is taking or damage the healer is taking because the tank can't pick it up fast enough which the DPS could be reducing within seconds, with little to no risk - but they're busy tunnel visioning the boss. Not everyone is a 336-339 experienced player that saunters through MM FP's with ease.

This "ineptness of tanks" is in some situations a learning curve and in some situations is because their team is not playing as a team. I would recommend to you that instead of criticising tanks and writing a whole post about tanks in a DPS thread that you take up tanking and see for yourself. I'm not talking about premade groups of, as you said, your friends who know what they're doing already. I mean random groupfinder runs where you're not always going to be listened to but you can hope that at least one of the DPS players knows what they're doing and that's you and your healers saving grace for the run not being a constant unneccesary mess and stress for the team. 

Tanks and healers are there to pull their weight as part of the team. There is no I in team. There is no DPS in team. The DPS are there to support the tanks and healers as much as the healers and tanks are there to support the DPS. Or the DPS and healers are there to support the tanks. Or the tanks and DPS are there to support the healers. There is no priority system on who is there to support who, all roles are there to be an equal part of the team. Everyone has their job in that team. It's what a team is. Any other mindset is with a fundamental misunderstanding of what a team is.

I urge you to take a look at my post in the tank forum before coming back here. If/when you do return here, do you have any positive criticism? 

Edited April 27, 2023 by NayaruLovegood

[NayaruLovegood]

On 4/23/2023 at 5:43 PM, RikuvonDrake said:

this is a great guide if your tank is terrible at the game and you want to make sure you are balancing their gameplay quality with yours and lower yourself to their level

Great quip. Care to explain what's bad about it and why?

[DawnAskham]

DPS basics - learn basic AOE and single target damage rotation for discipline, understand basic support abilities (e.g. interrupts, stuns, CC, shields, damage reduction, immunity, movement boosts, cleanse, heals) and when to use, master basic gameplay mechanics (e.g. line of sight, situational awareness, stand behind the boss, don't stand in bad).

AOE is generally better than single target for most trash in most cases, though this assumes a tank / group can control and position for effective AOE (not using LOS, not pulling in ranged, or morons hitting overload makes AOE ineffective).

Kill order from a priority perspective usually is ranged / caster / healer vs melee and weak vs strong - though there are exceptions, and as stated above, with proper positioning AOE will kill the weak mobs leaving just a high HP mob or two to single target. 

All dps have DCDs and many have self-heals such that unless the group's dps is terrible, pulling threat on a mob or two and survivng should not be an issue.

DPS / heals that pull aggro should move closer to tank / AOE point, do not run away.

Of course at this point in the game and expansion - unless you and the entire group are all new and have no gear, most content is brain-dead easy and doesn't require much of anything other than 'hit random buttons = win'.

This is why when the content does require a bit more, we get level-capped and geared players that are absolutely terrible.

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by DawnAskham

[MotherCrusher]

for those who find this, please understand there are specs where you have to target the big mobs first.

i main a virulence sniper

to get my proper damage going, i have 4 abilities to do before i use cull

i could just not use 2 of them for trash, but thats... literally wasting craploads of DPS just so it is not wasted on a trash mob

even if i do manage to dot spread, that still leaves lethal shot DoT to be reapplied, and i still have to use weakening blast, which cannot be spread without changing my tactical, and then i'd lose the lethal shot DoT

and then when i finally use cull on the trash mob? it dies half a second into the cast, and it is now on cooldown.

i'd have to change my tactical and several of my talents and do half damage in boss fights just to actually kill trash a little bit faster

Or, being a purely single target built spec, i can actually get my build up on the gold mob and get *more* dps on it than the others are getting with their AoEs. And thus eliminate the biggest threat much faster and get an overall faster kill time.

while the tank and hopefully another DPS who doesnt require a build up can take care of the rest with proper AoE

You're painting it too much as "always target weak enemies first" without considering the different strengths of each class/spec.