Broken Tacticals and Roots/Slows in PvP

[DougTheNoob]

2 hours ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

I think stuff can defiantly be looked at but one thing i will say is i really have enjoyed less hard CC. At least with roots or slows i can still fight back more often now that not every class just gets a 4 sec stun. But because of that I think we are noticing the roots and slows more because players are utilizing them more and we are spending far less time white barred compared to pre 7.0. But with that said there is alot of stuff that break roots and slows. Alot of states that make immune to them and slows don't stop movement abls or gap closers. But natrually like any pvp game some stuff can be tuned. If roots and slows contributed to white bar there is alot of other considerations. This would make the melee super strong, not only do they have very solid gap closers some classes with 2 of them, but that is one of the primary ways ranged classes keep their distance from melee. Also keep your teammates in mind, roots and slows are baked into some rotations so it might get really annoying when your teammates is white barring people when you are trying to get a real stun off. I would rather some slows and such get nerfed rather then contributed to white bar personally. I think white bar should be reserved for things that actually make the enemy player stop fighting back. Techncially even if you are rooted or slowed you are not helpless, there are abls that break roots, you can shoot back or use a ranged abl, etc. Like if a i get rooted and i am still able to do dmg to you should i get a white bar? Probably not. And for those that are specing into CC it makes their choice less valuable because more people will just always be white barred. 

And as a merc I personally prefer rocket out over reflect but you have alot of tools that just need to be well timed. E-net is a death sentence for a op, jet boost is solid, rocket out also grants you leap immunity. One thing i really enjoy about merc and as someone who has mained it in pvp since 2011 is that I do like the return to avoiding getting hit by damage. We just had many years of face tank merc and when a merc who was really good at kiting not only had those tools but also strong defensive tools felt oppressive. Not to mention specing into explosive dart gives you a nasty slow option against your foes. Only time i ever spec into reflect is when i hop into an arena and i see alot of stealth on the other team or double pt otherwise rocket out is amazing at keeping you alive. Also something alot of peopel forget as a dps cleanse yourself. You can remove alot of damage taken increase debuffs. 

Rocket out for wz,yes. But u wont live longer in arena if u dont choose reflect , unless the other team is super bad. I play mostly arena,so thats why I'm very concerned about this really bad pruning.

You mentioned melee getting super strong if slows and roots triggered resolve bar. Although I partially agree, I feel like something needs to be done asap. Using your example ... why melee classes get to keep their gap closers and best dcds while mercs need to choose being immobile and a little more tanky, or being a little bit more mobile ( dont fool urself if u feel like good players cant catch up the merc using rocket out) but way less tanky? I mean,its clear to me the class balance in this game is really bad atm,so either they fix the class balance,giving the chance to kite for every class,and being able to avoid being rooted to death at least from time to time to evry class,or they need to fix the issue at its core which is the roots and slows.

[Skolops]

3 hours ago, DougTheNoob said:

Rocket out for wz,yes. But u wont live longer in arena if u dont choose reflect , unless the other team is super bad. I play mostly arena,so thats why I'm very concerned about this really bad pruning.

You mentioned melee getting super strong if slows and roots triggered resolve bar. Although I partially agree, I feel like something needs to be done asap. Using your example ... why melee classes get to keep their gap closers and best dcds while mercs need to choose being immobile and a little more tanky, or being a little bit more mobile ( dont fool urself if u feel like good players cant catch up the merc using rocket out) but way less tanky? I mean,its clear to me the class balance in this game is really bad atm,so either they fix the class balance,giving the chance to kite for every class,and being able to avoid being rooted to death at least from time to time to evry class,or they need to fix the issue at its core which is the roots and slows.

I don't think it's true that melee classes get to keep their gap closers without a tradeoff. I play every class in the game about the same amount and I'd say the most frustrating thing about playing any of the melee classes right now is the tradeoffs they need to make in the skill trees. For example, Juggernauts need to choose between Mad Dash and Saber Reflect. Being without Mad Dash leaves you sitting there motionless for huge chunks of time in every match, but Saber Reflect is basically essential for arenas. Assassins don't have as tough a choice, but still, Shroud is one of the opt-in items in the skill "tree" and it's so much of a no-brainer essential item that nobody would ever consider the other options. Marauder has more or less just lost some of its mobility. Powertech has to choose between Hydraulic Overrides or Electro Dart, their 4 second stun. Hydraulic Overrides is the clear choice but the loss of Electro Dart is really painful. 

[DougTheNoob]

1 hour ago, Skolops said:

I don't think it's true that melee classes get to keep their gap closers without a tradeoff. I play every class in the game about the same amount and I'd say the most frustrating thing about playing any of the melee classes right now is the tradeoffs they need to make in the skill trees. For example, Juggernauts need to choose between Mad Dash and Saber Reflect. Being without Mad Dash leaves you sitting there motionless for huge chunks of time in every match, but Saber Reflect is basically essential for arenas. Assassins don't have as tough a choice, but still, Shroud is one of the opt-in items in the skill "tree" and it's so much of a no-brainer essential item that nobody would ever consider the other options. Marauder has more or less just lost some of its mobility. Powertech has to choose between Hydraulic Overrides or Electro Dart, their 4 second stun. Hydraulic Overrides is the clear choice but the loss of Electro Dart is really painful. 

Yes,I didnt say no classes had to choose between important skills. I agree every class has some tough choices. Although mercs now need to choose between their only 4 sec stun ,their arguably best dcd against heavy focus and their only good mobility skill,cos lets be honest merc's HO is garbage and is only useful for a really short time against heavy root and slow focus,and also has big cd (45 secs) . My point is, if they are going this way with the pruning that completly destroys the mobility of some classes, they need to do something about the roots and slows. 

You said u play merc. So I suggest u to play arena matches for like 2 days in a row, and u'll see what I'm talking about. But we can talk almost the same thing about juggs mobility ,even tho juggs actually can chase ppl around if they know what they're doing and have way better dps than mercs . Mercs just cant chase anymore if they choose reflect over rocket out, cos they are too slow . They cant chase,they cant kite... Its just "take some dmg and die right after ur dcds run out" situation. As a decent merc myself,I know how to survive a little longer, but even so its a mess and just impossible against decent adversaries that knows how to deal with our dcds and can slow an root us to death.

So,again,roots and slows are one of the biggest problems atm if they decide to keep going with this pruning stupidity that hits some classes mobility more than others.

Edited April 6, 2023 by DougTheNoob

[steveerkcanjerk]

21 hours ago, DougTheNoob said:

Rocket out for wz,yes. But u wont live longer in arena if u dont choose reflect , unless the other team is super bad. I play mostly arena,so thats why I'm very concerned about this really bad pruning.

You mentioned melee getting super strong if slows and roots triggered resolve bar. Although I partially agree, I feel like something needs to be done asap. Using your example ... why melee classes get to keep their gap closers and best dcds while mercs need to choose being immobile and a little more tanky, or being a little bit more mobile ( dont fool urself if u feel like good players cant catch up the merc using rocket out) but way less tanky? I mean,its clear to me the class balance in this game is really bad atm,so either they fix the class balance,giving the chance to kite for every class,and being able to avoid being rooted to death at least from time to time to evry class,or they need to fix the issue at its core which is the roots and slows.

Well in arenas you don't really need reflect against every comp. And it its also very map dependent. If there is any elevation just boost people off taking no dmg is the best dcd. If the other team has alot of stealth reflect becomes more valuable because they can reset fight alot. Reflect doesn't work against good players because everyone stops attacking you and begins to drop AoE. Atm dots and pressure is the meta, so getting out of cleave is alot more valuable then popping reflect. Naturally this changes depending who and where you are fighting. But atm Leth, Vengence, pyro, hatred, madness can give 2 cares about the reflect but if they can't spread to me or have to waste time catching me thats more valuable. 

Second why does melee get to keep that stuff well because their classes literally become unplayable without it. And if will become a defacto choice every time. That is their primary engage, you take that away and they have to walk up to enemies. It is not on the same level as our dcds. Sure a really good player can keep up with you on rocket out, but i get to keep doing dmg, I have some self healing, I do heal from direct dmg off energy shield, I also have 3 other teammates who should be doing something. If you run around for 30-45 seconds, netting, rooting, kiting, jet boosting dps off and your dps on your team fail to kill anyone thats not your fault or the fault of your class. Can the balance be better i am sure, it always can be but tbh we have really short memory. It wasn't too long ago jugg tanks had 5 health bars, or AP PT and Pyro had meteor brawler and free heat, or mara could stealth in and out in and out. I personally dont have any issue with using rocket out, i have played hundreds of arenas in the past 2 seasons and extensivly played ranked when it was around, its not that big of an issue. Also as a merc i do have alot of good dmg, I have a net, i can sap, and a pretty juicy burst window on both specs. 

This isn't me saying roots and slows are not an issue that can be looked at in some shape or form. But the merc is not this helpless class that is a free kill in arena. I do pretty damn well on it and often in the top dmg in a match. 

Edit: Oh and they don't keep all their gap closers. PT's have to spec into rocket out, Jugg's into mad dash, Ops into their holotraverse thing, Mara's in predation, etc. Everyone is making choices here and tbh I have personally enjoyed pvp more. I am hard cc'd alot less, everyone doesn't have a ton of dcds and ttk is alot faster. It got really old when every class it felt like had a ton of dcds to go through. Is it perfect nah but it was nice not fighting through a bunch of health bars. 

Edited April 6, 2023 by steveerkcanjerk

[DougTheNoob]

On 4/6/2023 at 3:42 PM, steveerkcanjerk said:

Well in arenas you don't really need reflect against every comp. And it its also very map dependent. If there is any elevation just boost people off taking no dmg is the best dcd. If the other team has alot of stealth reflect becomes more valuable because they can reset fight alot. Reflect doesn't work against good players because everyone stops attacking you and begins to drop AoE. Atm dots and pressure is the meta, so getting out of cleave is alot more valuable then popping reflect. Naturally this changes depending who and where you are fighting. But atm Leth, Vengence, pyro, hatred, madness can give 2 cares about the reflect but if they can't spread to me or have to waste time catching me thats more valuable. 

Second why does melee get to keep that stuff well because their classes literally become unplayable without it. And if will become a defacto choice every time. That is their primary engage, you take that away and they have to walk up to enemies. It is not on the same level as our dcds. Sure a really good player can keep up with you on rocket out, but i get to keep doing dmg, I have some self healing, I do heal from direct dmg off energy shield, I also have 3 other teammates who should be doing something. If you run around for 30-45 seconds, netting, rooting, kiting, jet boosting dps off and your dps on your team fail to kill anyone thats not your fault or the fault of your class. Can the balance be better i am sure, it always can be but tbh we have really short memory. It wasn't too long ago jugg tanks had 5 health bars, or AP PT and Pyro had meteor brawler and free heat, or mara could stealth in and out in and out. I personally dont have any issue with using rocket out, i have played hundreds of arenas in the past 2 seasons and extensivly played ranked when it was around, its not that big of an issue. Also as a merc i do have alot of good dmg, I have a net, i can sap, and a pretty juicy burst window on both specs. 

This isn't me saying roots and slows are not an issue that can be looked at in some shape or form. But the merc is not this helpless class that is a free kill in arena. I do pretty damn well on it and often in the top dmg in a match. 

Edit: Oh and they don't keep all their gap closers. PT's have to spec into rocket out, Jugg's into mad dash, Ops into their holotraverse thing, Mara's in predation, etc. Everyone is making choices here and tbh I have personally enjoyed pvp more. I am hard cc'd alot less, everyone doesn't have a ton of dcds and ttk is alot faster. It got really old when every class it felt like had a ton of dcds to go through. Is it perfect nah but it was nice not fighting through a bunch of health bars. 

Yes,everyone is making choices. But,again not between 3 essential skills like mercs right now. Juggs need to choose between mad dash and saber reflect,for example,the other being not so relevant. So mercs basicly losing 2 very essential skills . I was fine with having choose between reflect,HO and the stun. But the change hurted a lot merc's gameplay. I'm a vet merc,so I know how to survive a little longer than the avarage mercs, and I know how to use rocket boost as well,thnx for the insight. That doesnt change the fact mercs got nerfed really too hard,while some other classes have every tool ( madness and lethality), and the current state of roots and slows in this game hits harder on classes with already low mobility such as merc right now.
Reflect isnt necessarilly useless against good players. You just need to know how to use it.Good way to use it is to break PT combo while getting some heals from the beginning of it.

Try kitting succesfully against comps of decent oper,sins ,juggs and sorcs where u get rooted and slowed every second while having no mobility skill other than HO with 45 secs,and I'm not even mentioning the doble pt matches lol. Unless they make a mistake or u have a good healer with u,its just impossible to kite when u can barely move or keep a little distance.

Edited April 8, 2023 by DougTheNoob

[Fynnlagh]

Melee is just beyond broken with a bit support or in groups. That's why roots should be available by default on ranged/healers.

[steveerkcanjerk]

On 4/7/2023 at 7:38 PM, DougTheNoob said:

Yes,everyone is making choices. But,again not between 3 essential skills like mercs right now. Juggs need to choose between mad dash and saber reflect,for example,the other being not so relevant. So mercs basicly losing 2 very essential skills . I was fine with having choose between reflect,HO and the stun. But the change hurted a lot merc's gameplay. I'm a vet merc,so I know how to survive a little longer than the avarage mercs, and I know how to use rocket boost as well,thnx for the insight. That doesnt change the fact mercs got nerfed really too hard,while some other classes have every tool ( madness and lethality), and the current state of roots and slows in this game hits harder on classes with already low mobility such as merc right now.
Reflect isnt necessarilly useless against good players. You just need to know how to use it.Good way to use it is to break PT combo while getting some heals from the beginning of it.

Try kitting succesfully against comps of decent oper,sins ,juggs and sorcs where u get rooted and slowed every second while having no mobility skill other than HO with 45 secs,and I'm not even mentioning the doble pt matches lol. Unless they make a mistake or u have a good healer with u,its just impossible to kite when u can barely move or keep a little distance.

i guess its more of an issue for you then me, and I am not saying reflect is useless, it has its uses and you and me can sit here go back and forth about use cases but that is highlighting why its a choice. They both have distinct use cases, and you and me going back and forth about what we prefer seems to be why its a choice. I prefer to kite my enemies down especially when i am first focus you prefer to have a reflect. And there are some fights where i also prefer to have a reflect and i just change the mod out. But I have sit nearly every match at the top of the dmg board, have 70% win rate between both seasons in arena and a 65% in warzones so i would say its working out just fine for me. I am sure as a veteran merc player as well it is working out just fine for you to. 

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

i guess its more of an issue for you then me, and I am not saying reflect is useless, it has its uses and you and me can sit here go back and forth about use cases but that is highlighting why its a choice. They both have distinct use cases, and you and me going back and forth about what we prefer seems to be why its a choice. I prefer to kite my enemies down especially when i am first focus you prefer to have a reflect. And there are some fights where i also prefer to have a reflect and i just change the mod out. But I have sit nearly every match at the top of the dmg board, have 70% win rate between both seasons in arena and a 65% in warzones so i would say its working out just fine for me. I am sure as a veteran merc player as well it is working out just fine for you to. 

bold move. I'll use it in WZs, but...

if I see a merc/mando in arena that chose RO over reflect, I tunnel him regardless of my own choices (it ain't easy to chase w/o forced march and RO), but he has nothing to stop me from hitting him. I'd encourage everyone in my team to jump him. RO isn't that good, even with the 3rd proc thing (which procs a lot in WZs). RO is a little mobility side piece on an otherwise very immobile class. it's just got nothing for me in arenas though when the other team opens on you. you can't use it while incapacitated. so it depends on burning your breaker or having HO up.

I've been playing with my jugg tank, and juggs have similar choices between mobility and dcd and dps, but for example, the warrior version of RO (i forget the name but it's between a sprint and a teleport in which you're immune to dmg just like op roll) also breaks roots. that would be something at least. still not worth forcing a focus swap, imo, but something.

[steveerkcanjerk]

1 hour ago, krackcommando said:

bold move. I'll use it in WZs, but...

if I see a merc/mando in arena that chose RO over reflect, I tunnel him regardless of my own choices (it ain't easy to chase w/o forced march and RO), but he has nothing to stop me from hitting him. I'd encourage everyone in my team to jump him. RO isn't that good, even with the 3rd proc thing (which procs a lot in WZs). RO is a little mobility side piece on an otherwise very immobile class. it's just got nothing for me in arenas though when the other team opens on you. you can't use it while incapacitated. so it depends on burning your breaker or having HO up.

I've been playing with my jugg tank, and juggs have similar choices between mobility and dcd and dps, but for example, the warrior version of RO (i forget the name but it's between a sprint and a teleport in which you're immune to dmg just like op roll) also breaks roots. that would be something at least. still not worth forcing a focus swap, imo, but something.

that is fair and like i said it really depends on who and what i am fighting. If i feel i am being tunneled more frequently in my matches i change my mods and such to accommodate. So if there is someone in queue who starts tunneling me or something i grab RS. Similar to how i change my mods and such with depending on who i am playing with. So if i am in a cleave comp i grab more AoE mods. Which also brings me to another point solo vs group play. If i am in a group there are more instances where i can take RO over the Reflect. In a solo environment i would say Reflect has more uses. If I need more mobility also just switch to IO over arsenal. And so far it has served me well, but I was very used to kiting merc since forever and even back when it was considered garbage tier in arenas i was able to pull off a gold or silver in many seasons. This also isn't a "balance is perfect" statement i think RO should break roots for example. I dont think you should be immune to dmg because that is the operative and warrior thing but I think a root break would be super fair. I can't tell you tholl how many times people give me free charges with RO and i can zip around an arena all day. Its actually pretty fun as well, will someone eventually catch you? For sure, but did they just spend an eternity to do so and most of the time someone on their team is dead. But I just play into my playstyle and build that i am running, stand where its hard to hard swap or dot spread. Play and edge for knock back, net at the right time etc. And if the other team wants to open on me i just stay back or take a reflect which is great case to take but i am not always first focus. And when fighting an AoE heavy team which is a big part of the meta atm, being out of that has been more useful then trying to time a reflect against leth, madness, or veng. At least on Star Forge the vengence and rage jugg i normally queue alongside gets tunneled first where I think the solo vs group choices come into play. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by steveerkcanjerk