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Broken Tacticals and Roots/Slows in PvP


BallisticKaine

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So let's discuss the current broken tacticals current in game that are abused in PvP. So many cried about Grit Teeth and Defel Spliced Genes and they got nerfed into the ground.

Ionic Discharge for Engineering Sniper/Saboteur Gunslinger - The reset on it with the tree skill along with the damage it does is too much for it. Let alone you get 2 or more running it and it ruins the match and gameplay. 

Volatile Strike - Once again broken with skill tree setup.

Two Cloaks - same reason Spliced Genes got nerfed was too quick of vanishing for Assassins.

 

Now onto whole other issues. Roots and Slows.

They either need to start adding to the white bar, or roots and slows need to be removed completely from the game.  

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3 hours ago, BallisticKaine said:

Two Cloaks - same reason Spliced Genes got nerfed was too quick of vanishing for Assassins.

nothing wrong here. defel splice was completely different. the cd on it was insanely short. maras were stealthing out and escaping combat better and more frequently than actual stealth classes.

 

3 hours ago, BallisticKaine said:

Now onto whole other issues. Roots and Slows.

They either need to start adding to the white bar, or roots and slows need to be removed completely from the game.  

nah. I wouldn't object to reducing either the duration or the % of slows. I do think those should probably be reassessed given the reduction of options to deal with such things due to pruning.

i think a lot of the changes kinda force players to play in a trinity comp, because (at least in my experience) arenas feel a lot more even keel with a guard and healer. like...nobody's gonna get blown up unless the skill disparity is really significant. as long as it's not a matched premade, anyway, the trinity matches are pretty fun. not intense like rated matches, but a lot more interesting than having one player be the rabbit on each team.

Edited by krackcommando
slows
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17 hours ago, Beyrahl said:

How about a real problem tactical? Neural trigger.

You have a problem with a two second stun tactical? its not as OP as people think it is. By time it is off of CD the player is usually white bared. Ionic Discharge is a bigger problem than Neural Trigger.

Most what I have found with crafted tacticals that other find OP are 3 things. 1, they can't craft it. 2, they can't afford to buy it. 3, they don't understand how to counter it. It was the same case with Grit Teeth. The biggest problem with Grit Teeth was the in pairing with Force Unbound Set Bonus. That is why most people cried about it. 
 

There is no counter to Ionic Discharge. Even more so when you get premades class stacking abusing the crud out of a broken tactical

 

How many PT/VG do you see class stacking running Neural Trigger in premades? Slim to none. While the Sniper/Slinger do it almost 90% of the time

Edited by BallisticKaine
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So a dormant effect, because it's a taunt that goes through immunities (because it always has 6s duration can be broke at 1s left) and then breaks on damage, is good? 
You may not run into a lot of it but I have. A 13s off GCD stun even lower for the tank if they take reduction talent. Something that ignores immunities and pops when immunities fall off, no thought process required is super unbalanced. It's like a shorter cooldown uncounterable low slash that doesn't break on damage. 
While the burst and damage are no joke of engi's tactical so is AP's its damage tactical is now passive and can afford to run taunt stun making it nearly impossible to outplay. 
Here's just an example of two pugs running into each other in regs and nuking anyone within their two-second stuns. One's because of a tactical and the others only add extra control. 

Don't disregard something else that is fundamentally busted because you want to drive home a point about another one, I am not disagreeing with you. 

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On 3/17/2023 at 9:40 PM, BallisticKaine said:

Now onto whole other issues. Roots and Slows.

They either need to start adding to the white bar, or roots and slows need to be removed completely from the game.  

Yes please.

Let them add to white bar.

And they need to lower the amount available fixed and optional. PvP is currently a root and slow fest.

 

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On 3/19/2023 at 5:13 AM, Beyrahl said:

So a dormant effect, because it's a taunt that goes through immunities (because it always has 6s duration can be broke at 1s left) and then breaks on damage, is good? 
You may not run into a lot of it but I have. A 13s off GCD stun even lower for the tank if they take reduction talent. Something that ignores immunities and pops when immunities fall off, no thought process required is super unbalanced. It's like a shorter cooldown uncounterable low slash that doesn't break on damage. 
While the burst and damage are no joke of engi's tactical so is AP's its damage tactical is now passive and can afford to run taunt stun making it nearly impossible to outplay. 
Here's just an example of two pugs running into each other in regs and nuking anyone within their two-second stuns. One's because of a tactical and the others only add extra control. 

Don't disregard something else that is fundamentally busted because you want to drive home a point about another one, I am not disagreeing with you. 

I don't really know how that feels on the receiving end of it but Neural Trigger should stay at least for tanks in some way, I find it the only option for a tactical if I want to use the channeled flamethrower in PvP. The tradeoff is obvious: you have less tanking utility because the taunt effect ends on damage for more CC. Taunt CD is 15s but can be (and should be) reduced to 12s by speccing into Payday ability to have an uptime for your hardest-hitting ability which would be a joke otherwise because of how telegraphed and ez to dodge it is. The other tradeoffs would be that you can't use the best dps legendary for a PT that gives +10% damage on Heat Blast, because you won't have that ability and that also means that you'll be overheated faster. So for tanks it isn't really a huge buff but more like an alternative build that is fun and can be viable too with a different playstyle where you may want to use Explosive Fuel defensively sometimes. Taking that tactical away would just make the spec a lot more boring with only one meta way to play it based around 2min CD burst windows. 7.0 has finally made it more interesting to play a tank spec so let's not ruin it ok?

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1 hour ago, Voroschuk said:

7.0 has finally made it more interesting to play a tank spec so let's not ruin it ok?

Matter of opinion and also isn't my choice. 
The tactical isn't really taken for damage or survival gain but rather to shut down specific players. Which indirectly helps survival too. I'd be okay with it not being used as DPS or seeing some sort of nerf with the interaction. Off gcd ranged taunt that can be pre-popped on people that are still immune is absurd. I won't go further into it, but the control factor is unmatched in a class with already good aoe/melee control. 

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-garbage deserter buff system (especially on DCs)

-horrible matchmaking (arenas 2 healers vs, none for example)

-premades up to 8 (!) people

-broken classes (how many DCDS does one class (merc for example) need?

-roots, stuns etc

- pointless ability pruning

safe to say this game is in it's worse state (even 5.0 was godlike compared to this)

i'm done with this game until some changes are made.

(yeah yeah i know this ain't an airport but i'm still going to announce my departure lol)

Edited by meddani
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1 hour ago, meddani said:

-garbage deserter buff system (especially on DCs)

-horrible matchmaking (arenas 2 healers vs, none for example)

-premades up to 8 (!) people

-broken classes (how many DCDS does one class (merc for example) need?

-roots, stuns etc

- pointless ability pruning

safe to say this game is in it's worse state (even 5.0 was godlike compared to this)

i'm done with this game until some changes are made.

(yeah yeah i know this ain't an airport but i'm still going to announce my departure lol)

You just find out. It's been like this same 2-0-1-2

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On 3/21/2023 at 6:54 AM, Beyrahl said:

The tactical isn't really taken for damage or survival gain but rather to shut down specific players.

It does everything. I'd say it's a kiting tool, but PTs don't need to kite anymore. It prevents opponents from escaping. It interrupts them from casting. It's legit another stun on an absurd cd with broken mechanics (like carb going through cloak except this isn't a bug?). tactics in particular is just overtuned atm. this tactical kind of reminds me of the early days when assault didn't have a (practical) timer on the hib proc and it was slowly elongated over a few patches. but those were kind of the wild west days and there were a handful of specs that had pretty absurd mechanics that I assume the devs didn't take into account at launch. iunno. it's a pretty brutal "extra" ability for a dps spec that would sit at the top of the pyramid even without it.

21 minutes ago, remylion said:

shouldn't dots and slows end when you die? I often have both still on me when I respawn in PvP

they persist through death. they have always persisted through death. afaik, that is a bug that BW cannot fix. given the uptick in sorc slows, complaints about this have been trending in 7.x. but it was always an issue with (in particular) lethality ops/snipers going back to shared trees. you can see it with the PT dot spec as well (it's hard to miss a probe showering down flames on you). in WZs like AHG, this can cause you to miss the gate b/c the spawn point is in the middle of a very large start box. otherwise, it's more of a frustration about things not working correctly.

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On 3/18/2023 at 5:54 PM, BallisticKaine said:

You have a problem with a two second stun tactical? its not as OP as people think it is. By time it is off of CD the player is usually white bared. Ionic Discharge is a bigger problem than Neural Trigger.

Most what I have found with crafted tacticals that other find OP are 3 things. 1, they can't craft it. 2, they can't afford to buy it. 3, they don't understand how to counter it. It was the same case with Grit Teeth. The biggest problem with Grit Teeth was the in pairing with Force Unbound Set Bonus. That is why most people cried about it. 
 

There is no counter to Ionic Discharge. Even more so when you get premades class stacking abusing the crud out of a broken tactical

 

How many PT/VG do you see class stacking running Neural Trigger in premades? Slim to none. While the Sniper/Slinger do it almost 90% of the time

So you only have a probelm with overpowered tacticals when they start effecting you lmao

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22 hours ago, Prapcaster said:

So you only have a problem with overpowered tacticals when they start effecting you lmao

No, because I have been on the receiving end of Neural Trigger. I doesn't bother me as bad as the broken Ionic Discharge tactical. That is completely broken more so when class stacking is involved. 

 

Also I fixed you spelling errors, fyi

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Just now, BallisticKaine said:

No, because I have been on the receiving end of Neural Trigger. I doesn't bother me as bad as the broken Ionic Discharge tactical. That is completely broken more so when class stacking is involved. 

 

Also I fixed you spelling errors, fyi

First of all don't care that there's typos because I'm not a nerd /s

Second of all when a class is capable of globalling in 2 gcd's it 100% is a broken tactical it's able to give a second stun in those gcd's. I view it as less of a deal as engi one for sure but it needs to be removed all the same. No other class in the game has the capability of pt taunt stun unless they lose a core defensive in their utilities. Pt doesn't lose any defensive and let's be real they don't take much of a dps loss by not using overwelming offense.

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I'm not often commenting on forum but statement that Ionic Discharge should be changed or removed is utterly incorrect. 

1. Damage

Correctly executed rotation with this tactica is: Poison Dart --> Probe --> Explosive Probe --> AutoCrit --> Plasma Probe --> Ion Discharge; my highiest crit on this rotation + buffs from other player gave 171k so hardly a global and having in mind 334 gear HP its close to 50% health and please keep in mind that was a target that didn't had any defensive CD. Usualy crit is about 130-140k and that is it. Outside of burst window with AutoCrit available, this damage is closer to 80k. 

Due to the fact that its easy predictable even with shorter rotation (Probe - Explosive - Plasma - Discharge) you still have 3cds to prepare for it. You can: 

a) Mara --> Predation and run out of range, but a deflect shield, undying or vanish

b) Jugg --> Shield or just take a hit with enrage 

c) Sorc --> Buble and use clouded mind or just force barrier

d) Oper --> If you are not stunned you reall you not be even targeted due to roll and evasion 

e) Merc --> reflect shield or any other shield

g) Sniper --> Roll and evade pretty much entire burst :)

h) PT --> Did sniper really manage to do full rotation before you burned him? If so -shield and finish him!

The only problem you might have is that when sniper catches you between defensive, but really any class catched between defensive CD will just die if focused correctly

2. Perspective issue

In 7.0 lots of people moved from Sniper to other class as sniper is not viable so the only one that sticked to the class are quite good players who exactly know what they are doing on snipers, so the change to meet previous gold or plat player playing sniper is highier hence they have highier chance to deal with any other player but that is not a class, its a player behind it. You really dont complain about avg. snipers,right?

There is no chance that sniper will global you, what you are seeing is coordinated burst becouse sniper often follow PT or other class to finish player - what you see is often that explosive probe is finishing you from 30-40% as the other class or player burned you down. Best example is PT - Engi due --> PT will provide stuns and initial burst within 3-4 cds and sniper will just finish. But please remember, you are burned by more than one player

3. Trade-offs

Selecting this tactical requires you to: 

a) Spec to all crit bonus talents

b) Run full crit build

Which in effect makes energy managment a big issue - I had to learn how to manage energy for longer fights and if I'm not focused and have to kite after 3 sets of rotations I'm very low on energy but that is a trade off which results in high crits

4. One trick pony and glass cannon

With lose of dcds and health regen Sniper essentially relies on damage and thats it...its the only thing that it brings to table and once focused we will go down quite easily. I guess BW wanted this class to be a glass cannon but unfortunetly made it one trick pony (Glass Pony?:D); removing or reworking this tactical without any further class changes will utterly make this spec a trash, but then good players will still find a way to play sniper. 

5. How to deal with snipers?

Just take one for a spin and see what are the problems, I've spent entire weekend playing as madness sorc to understand better what is their main problem (there is non really), so i recomend everyone whi complain about engi to do the same. 

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Damage amplification on top of auto critical. It's why snipers tacticals make them hit so hard, it's as if they forgot laze target exists.
The moment snipers defensive kit isn't gutted even more people will complain about this, not because they can or can't outplay it but rather the fact it hits so much harder than everything else, including through defensives.

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I just want to say 1 thing. It is just impossible to play a merc atm with so many roots and slows that NEVER ever go away, after they nerfed even more its mobility.

@JackieKo For the love of Thor,the mighty, make roots and slows activate a resolve bar (diff from the stun one) maybe after the second root. Its beyond UNBAREABLE to play and have fun when u get like 6 roots in a row playing a class that already has no mobility at all.  You literally cant move and need to use all ur dcds,eat some dmg and die. I mean,theres no strategy or anything. You guys making the game super dumb.

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I have seen and heard so many comments about roots and slows and how they're so much more common in PvP nowadays and I don't really understand these comments. Let me be clear: I don't think it's at all surprising that people would want fewer roots and slows. That doesn't confuse me. What confuses me is thevery widespread idea that they're especially common in the game right now. 

I've played the game since basically launch and I can assure you this is the least amount of roots and slows there have ever been. So, so many of them have been removed from the game at this point. Every single spec of every single class used to have several, whereas now many classes either have none or they've been reduced in number or they've been made a choice that you have to give something else to spec into. 

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6 hours ago, Skolops said:

I have seen and heard so many comments about roots and slows and how they're so much more common in PvP nowadays and I don't really understand these comments. Let me be clear: I don't think it's at all surprising that people would want fewer roots and slows. That doesn't confuse me. What confuses me is thevery widespread idea that they're especially common in the game right now. 

I've played the game since basically launch and I can assure you this is the least amount of roots and slows there have ever been. So, so many of them have been removed from the game at this point. Every single spec of every single class used to have several, whereas now many classes either have none or they've been reduced in number or they've been made a choice that you have to give something else to spec into. 

I understand ur point and agree . But the reason why we complaing about roots and slows still valid. After the terrible "pruning" of skills they made that afected some classes more than others,this issue seem to be even more relevant . Like the example I gave ,if u play a merc u'll have to choose beteween rocket out and reflect and most ppl gonna choose reflect cos its the best way to avoid being globaled,which will leave merc imobile unable to chase anybody nor kite anybody cos merc's HO is trash with 45 cd and meh effect. Now imagine a imobile merc having to fight against sorcs or  opers slowing and rooting the merc non stop until it eventualy dies. Theres nothing this merc can do but eat some dmg using all its dcds and die in a short time. I used the merc example cos this issue is hitting harder on mercs than any other class right now,but u can see the same situation fights of sorcs against maras,juggs etc.  Nobody is asking to remove slows and roots completly from game cos its a very important part of how most classes play,but it needs to trigger a resolve bar after the second or third time its applied .

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I think stuff can defiantly be looked at but one thing i will say is i really have enjoyed less hard CC. At least with roots or slows i can still fight back more often now that not every class just gets a 4 sec stun. But because of that I think we are noticing the roots and slows more because players are utilizing them more and we are spending far less time white barred compared to pre 7.0. But with that said there is alot of stuff that break roots and slows. Alot of states that make immune to them and slows don't stop movement abls or gap closers. But natrually like any pvp game some stuff can be tuned. If roots and slows contributed to white bar there is alot of other considerations. This would make the melee super strong, not only do they have very solid gap closers some classes with 2 of them, but that is one of the primary ways ranged classes keep their distance from melee. Also keep your teammates in mind, roots and slows are baked into some rotations so it might get really annoying when your teammates is white barring people when you are trying to get a real stun off. I would rather some slows and such get nerfed rather then contributed to white bar personally. I think white bar should be reserved for things that actually make the enemy player stop fighting back. Techncially even if you are rooted or slowed you are not helpless, there are abls that break roots, you can shoot back or use a ranged abl, etc. Like if a i get rooted and i am still able to do dmg to you should i get a white bar? Probably not. And for those that are specing into CC it makes their choice less valuable because more people will just always be white barred. 

And as a merc I personally prefer rocket out over reflect but you have alot of tools that just need to be well timed. E-net is a death sentence for a op, jet boost is solid, rocket out also grants you leap immunity. One thing i really enjoy about merc and as someone who has mained it in pvp since 2011 is that I do like the return to avoiding getting hit by damage. We just had many years of face tank merc and when a merc who was really good at kiting not only had those tools but also strong defensive tools felt oppressive. Not to mention specing into explosive dart gives you a nasty slow option against your foes. Only time i ever spec into reflect is when i hop into an arena and i see alot of stealth on the other team or double pt otherwise rocket out is amazing at keeping you alive. Also something alot of peopel forget as a dps cleanse yourself. You can remove alot of damage taken increase debuffs. 

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