Follow-ups on PvP in 7.2

[JediMasterAlex]

Just now, SaerethDL said:

LOL This snide remark here is a literal example of what I was talking about. As there are many, many, examples through-out this thread. You couldn't make it any easier for me. 

Now we're getting somewhere. Your definition of "toxic" is snide remarks, like some of my comments in this thread. That is very telling rofl

[SaerethDL]

Just now, JediMasterAlex said:

Now we're getting somewhere. Your definition of "toxic" is snide remarks, like some of my comments in this thread. That is very telling rofl

Very telling why you are upset you don't get to feel special anymore. Gotcha 

[Raazmir]

Just now, Nee-Elder said:

 

* i really don't see why BioWare couldn't  do some STAR WARS  version of  'Cyrodiil' , including it's points leaderboard, and with like player-manned turrets & vehicles & bases, etc.  ... even with the nearly 15-year old 'Hero' game-engine.

Because upper management made a bad decision during the development of the engine for this game.  I do not recall the details but the facts I remember were that the team who started setting up an engine for this game were downsized and another team assigned to rush a half finished game engine into playability

 

There are UNDOUBTEDLY a lot of details and nuance im missing in that summary but thats the gist.  SWTOR has a frankenengine,  it was the primary reason given for no cross server pvp (which would have solved most if not all the problems pvp has today had it been implemented soon after launch.)

[JediMasterAlex]

2 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

Very telling why you are upset you don't get to feel special anymore. Gotcha 

First, you know we get to keep our flairs and titles right? So even if that was a major concern of mine, or anyone's, you needn't worry.

Second, I've barely played swtor since season 14 ended. I'm going to try out 7.2, but my stay will probably be brief, and I'll continue playing other games.

As an aside, we still don't know if arenas will be role mirrored. If they are not, there will be no point in playing them whatsoever.

[SaerethDL]

8 minutes ago, JediMasterAlex said:

First, you know we get to keep our flairs and titles right? So even if that was a major concern of mine, or anyone's, you needn't worry.

Second, I've barely played swtor since season 14 ended. I'm going to try out 7.2, but my stay will probably be brief, and I'll continue playing other games.

As an aside, we still don't know if arenas will be role mirrored. If they are not, there will be no point in playing them whatsoever.

Wear the flair, it will make it easier to identify you in warzones so I can melt you down like I do the rest of those that wear flairs. Easy targets.

You sound like you only want to play for the rewards anyways and don't even like swtor pvp, so maybe try out another game, maybe the world of warcraft solos you were talking about. 

I hope you stick around for 7.2 to be honest. It's going to be fun a lot more people are going to be playing, if you are good then prove it on the battlefield where it counts. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by SaerethDL

[JediMasterAlex]

Just now, SaerethDL said:

Wear the flair, it will make it easier to identify you in warzones so I can melt you down like I do the rest of those that wear flairs. Easy targets.

Um, isn't this "toxic" according to you? Or does the winky face nullify it? I don't know the rules.

1 minute ago, SaerethDL said:

 

You sound like you only want to play for the rewards anyways and don't even like swtor pvp, so maybe try out another game, maybe the world of warcraft solos you were talking about. 

I enjoyed getting rewards insofar as I enjoy setting goals and achieving them. That is part of what made ranked fun. That being said, I played a lot of ranked, thousands of matches per season for the last several, and it was because it was fun to play. Unless you think i'm a literal masochist, you should believe me when I say it was fun for me lol.

7.2 will be significantly more boring. There is satisfaction in being able to do something difficult. What good is the goal of completing the season when literally anyone can do it? Plus, like I said, whether I play will almost entirely depend on arena matchmaking, so we'll see.

[SaerethDL]

Just now, JediMasterAlex said:

Um, isn't this "toxic" according to you? Or does the winky face nullify it? I don't know the rules.

I enjoyed getting rewards insofar as I enjoy setting goals and achieving them. That is part of what made ranked fun. That being said, I played a lot of ranked, thousands of matches per season for the last several, and it was because it was fun to play. Unless you think i'm a literal masochist, you should believe me when I say it was fun for me lol.

7.2 will be significantly more boring. There is satisfaction in being able to do something difficult. What good is the goal of completing the season when literally anyone can do it? Plus, like I said, whether I play will almost entirely depend on arena matchmaking, so we'll see.

1) oh now you think something is toxic, funny.

2) literally anybody can be good at ranked and earn those rewards with enough time invested and practice. The problem was nobody wanted to put up with the constant harassment and deal with the egos so you missed out on some really good players. It became a small clique. And at the end of the day bioware obviously wasn't looking for that in their game, they actually want more people playing believe it or not. So take that up with them not me. 

[Raazmir]

6 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

1) oh now you think something is toxic, funny.

2) literally anybody can be good at ranked and earn those rewards with enough time invested and practice. The problem was nobody wanted to put up with the constant harassment and deal with the egos so you missed out on some really good players. It became a small clique. And at the end of the day bioware obviously wasn't looking for that in their game, they actually want more people playing believe it or not. So take that up with them not me. 

Oh so you want to see toxic

[JediMasterAlex]

2 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

1) oh now you think something is toxic, funny.

I asked, "isn't this toxic according to you".........

3 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

2) literally anybody can be good at ranked and earn those rewards with enough time invested and practice. The problem was nobody wanted to put up with the constant harassment and deal with the egos so you missed out on some really good players. It became a small clique. And at the end of the day bioware obviously wasn't looking for that in their game, they actually want more people playing believe it or not. So take that up with them not me. 

That applies to the rewards on the vendors, though it would take an absurd amount of grinding for a bad ranked player to get them that way.

It does NOT apply to the flairs and titles. You could not get gold or top 3 simply by grinding. There are players that played ranked for years desperately trying to get gold that simply could not, because they weren't good enough.

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

1 hour ago, JediMasterAlex said:

WOW is adding a solo queue on Tuesday.

Not to mention your argument fundamentally makes no sense anyway. Solo ranked was fun, and it was competitive. People that were bad at it didn't have to play it if they didn't want to.

Also, starting with 7.2, there will be no more "end game" pvp at all. So even though solo ranked was flawed in some ways, mainly due to Bioware's indifference, there is nothing taking its place.

Final Fantasy 14 also has  multiple types of pvp. There is a 4v4 "feast" mode, 5v5 "crystalline conflict" mode, 24v24 "rival wings" mode, and 24v24v24 "frontline" mode

 

Guess which ones have ranked? The 4v4 and 5v5 mode, and you can ONLY queue solo for them. You can group or do whatever you want in the big warzones, but they do not have any rating attached to them.

 

But according to some people, all the big popular MMOs with 10x the playercount are doing it wrong, while swtor is the one getting it right by removing ranked arenas  😁

Edited December 11, 2022 by Mycroft-Tarkin

[Raazmir]

Which part of anything in FF14 pvp is team deathmatch arena?

[SaerethDL]

27 minutes ago, JediMasterAlex said:

That applies to the rewards on the vendors, though it would take an absurd amount of grinding for a bad ranked player to get them that way.

It does NOT apply to the flairs and titles. You could not get gold or top 3 simply by grinding. There are players that played ranked for years desperately trying to get gold that simply could not, because they weren't good enough.

1) now you understand why a person would want to get better, so it didn't take an absurd amount of grinding to get rewarded. This is why competitive games in the past decade have rewarded you for trying to improve your skills by speeding up progression.

2) It usually amounts to this, the amount of time and practice someone has invested in the game usually dictates their skill level. So at the end of the day, the people with more time, no jobs, no kids, just sat at home all day playing swtor endlessly would be the ones to benefit the most from ranked and earn the best rewards.

I'm not saying that isn't fair, but that is just the nature of the beast. My solution was just to have a tiered reward system for regular players that were more casual so they could also have something to look forward to at the end of the season for their participation besides diddly squat. They didn't even have to be as good as ranked rewards. Ranked players got all the good stuff for so long, the gravy train that I was talking about. 

Bioware now has a solution for this, you can still play 4v4 all day if you want, you can have premades, you can still enjoy playing how you used to play, you can still earn rewards, but now ranked players are upset about giving those rewards away to more casual players. most of your rewards aren't even disappearing like you said, you get to keep them. But now more people get to participate in a more friendly environment that welcomes new players. You shouldn't be mad, you should embrace that fact.

Edited December 11, 2022 by SaerethDL

[JediMasterAlex]

7 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

1) now you understand why a person would want to get better, so it didn't take an absurd amount of grinding to get rewarded. This is why competitive games in the past decade have rewarded you for trying to improve your skills by speeding up progression.

But ranked also offered flairs and titles, which could only be earned via elo and win requirements...That is the major difference.

10 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

2) It usually amounts to this, the amount of time and practice someone has invested in the game usually dictates their skill level. So at the end of the day, the people with more time, no jobs, no kids, just sat at home all day playing swtor endlessly would be the ones to benefit the most from ranked and earn the best rewards.

This is utterly baseless speculation on your part, and I've already said that it is wrong. Are you really saying if you just play a lot of tennis, you can be as good as Nadal or Djokovic? If you just put in the hours on a basketball court you'll be as good as LeBron? There's a reason that the best ranked players ended up at the top of the leaderboards season after season.

If it was so easy for anyone to get gold, then why did only 1-2% of the ranked population get gold? Again, stop spreading misinformation.

Also, ranked only popped during prime time hours the vast majority of the time, so your point about only jobless people succeeding is equally facile.

14 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

I'm not saying that isn't fair, but that is just the nature of the beast. My solution was just to have a tiered reward system for regular players that were more casual so they could also have something to look forward to at the end of the season for their participation besides diddly squat. They didn't even have to be as good as ranked rewards. Ranked players got all the good stuff for so long, the gravy train that I was talking about. 

Bioware now has a solution for this, you can still play 4v4 all day if you want, you can have premades, you can still enjoy playing how you used to play, you can still earn rewards, but now ranked players are upset about giving those rewards away to more casual players. most of your rewards aren't even disappearing like you said, you get to keep them. But now more people get to participate in a more friendly environment that welcomes new players. You shouldn't be mad, you should embrace that fact.

I can't speak for all ranked players, but I am not at all upset that regs players are getting more rewards. I couldn't care less either way about that. What I do care about is that there's nothing new and nothing worthwhile to play for now. There is nothing to foster competition. No elo, no leaderboards, no sorting of players in any meaningful way.

It also remains to be seen whether we can play arenas like we used to. Again, if the matchmaker does not mirror roles like ranked did, arena play will be worthless.

[SaerethDL]

3 minutes ago, JediMasterAlex said:

But ranked also offered flairs and titles, which could only be earned via elo and win requirements...That is the major difference.

This is utterly baseless speculation on your part, and I've already said that it is wrong. Are you really saying if you just play a lot of tennis, you can be as good as Nadal or Djokovic? If you just put in the hours on a basketball court you'll be as good as LeBron? There's a reason that the best ranked players ended up at the top of the leaderboards season after season.

If it was so easy for anyone to get gold, then why did only 1-2% of the ranked population get gold? Again, stop spreading misinformation.

Also, ranked only popped during prime time hours the vast majority of the time, so your point about only jobless people succeeding is equally facile.

I can't speak for all ranked players, but I am not at all upset that regs players are getting more rewards. I couldn't care less either way about that. What I do care about is that there's nothing new and nothing worthwhile to play for now. There is nothing to foster competition. No elo, no leaderboards, no sorting of players in any meaningful way.

It also remains to be seen whether we can play arenas like we used to. Again, if the matchmaker does not mirror roles like ranked did, arena play will be worthless.

 

1) IE let me feel special rewards

2) This isn't basketball where size, fitness, athletics are put into play. And if you ask any one of those guys they didn't get there without practice and determination. And they will mostly tell you, that yes anyone can do it if they put their mind to it.

3)1-2% of the population got gold because thats all that allowed for it, and the most determined, and experienced won it.

4) so obviously not many people played ranked right? So what is biowares incentive for putting a lot of time into developing a gametype that nobody wanted to play?

5) You want a "let me feel special reward". This is a 10 year old game, there is no competitive esports built around it, the population has dwindled down to a handful of servers and ranked isn't being played. You are likely beating up on people with 1% of the amount of time you've played and you want to have bragging rights over them lol.

6) I've never heard of anyone that doesn't like winning. 

[septru]

1 hour ago, SaerethDL said:

1: You ignore the fact I already told you progressing faster towards rewards for being competitive is a certainly a reason. 

2: This is our point, you cannot see your own toxic behaviour or just don't care, your elitism that you actually think you are better than us with zero evidence and think you deserve some kind of special reward that you can hold over everyone else that you think proves it. That is all going away in a couple days

1: You know you make no sense, when you repeat the same backwards logic that BioWare uses. The whole point of a grind is that you don't need skill. Sure, skill will progress you faster. But at the end of the day Moophy, the biggest thrower in the game, will get the same rewards as the most skilled player. 

 

2: Ranked players are elite toxic a-holes... and if they try to argue that they aren't, than they are blinded by elitism. Kinda a catch 22, don't you think? 

[septru]

44 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

1) now you understand why a person would want to get better, so it didn't take an absurd amount of grinding to get rewarded.

 

... and at the end of the day there is no difference between me finishing the PvP Track in 3 week, and you finishing it in 3 months. 

[SaerethDL]

2 minutes ago, septru said:

 

... and at the end of the day there is no difference between me finishing the PvP Track in 3 week, and you finishing it in 3 months. 

wrong there is a difference between finishing the race and not finishing at all. 

[septru]

3 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

wrong there is a difference between finishing the race and not finishing at all. 

dude, most sane human beings can tell the difference between participation rewards and skill-based rewards. A grind, is not a skill based reward. No matter how much faster you progress through wins.

 

but if you want to die on this hill go ahead. the sane human community disagrees. 

 

 

[SaerethDL]

11 minutes ago, septru said:

1: You know you make no sense, when you repeat the same backwards logic that BioWare uses. The whole point of a grind is that you don't need skill. Sure, skill will progress you faster. But at the end of the day Moophy, the biggest thrower in the game, will get the same rewards as the most skilled player. 

 

2: Ranked players are elite toxic a-holes... and if they try to argue that they aren't, than they are blinded by elitism. Kinda a catch 22, don't you think? 

1) Oxymoron

2) Not sure what you are getting at here, elitism and toxicity go hand in hand. 

[SaerethDL]

1 minute ago, septru said:

dude, most sane human beings can tell the difference between participation rewards and skill-based rewards. A grind, is not a skill based reward. No matter how much faster you progress through wins.

 

but if you want to die on this hill go ahead. the sane human community disagrees. 

 

 

it all comes down to you wanting bragging rights and let me feel special award in a 10 year old dying game. Bioware agrees with me, thats what they are putting their money on. If it fails we may see a return of ranked, but I imagine we never will. Good luck

[JediMasterAlex]

16 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

1) IE let me feel special rewards

I have already explained this...what is the point in responding if you're not going to bother to read my posts?

17 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

2) This isn't basketball where size, fitness, athletics are put into play. And if you ask any one of those guys they didn't get there without practice and determination. And they will mostly tell you, that yes anyone can do it if they put their mind to it.

Obviously you need practice and determination, but the point is that those things alone are not enough. You also need some degree of innate skill, which applies to gaming as well, and you need to actively develop skill.

If you honestly believe that "anyone can do it if they put their mind to it," I honestly don't even know what to say to that lol. But as I've already said, when it comes to ranked in this game, there are tons of examples of players that played a ton of ranked, they fulfilled the "practice and determination" piece, and they still came up short.

Proper competition rewards the winners the most. That is not toxic, that is how it's supposed to work!

22 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

3)1-2% of the population got gold because thats all that allowed for it, and the most determined, and experienced won it.

I don't know what this means. Bioware may have a target for how many people they want to have certain rewards, but there's technically no limit to how many people can get there.

And again, being "determined" is clearly not enough. Go sort the leaderboards by wins. You'll notice that very few of the people with a large amount of wins have high elo.

24 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

4) so obviously not many people played ranked right? So what is biowares incentive for putting a lot of time into developing a gametype that nobody wanted to play?

That is clearly the calculation that they made, yes. If they just outright said that, and didn't mix in gobbledygook, I'd have less of an issue.

26 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

5) You want a "let me feel special reward". This is a 10 year old game, there is no competitive esports built around it, the population has dwindled down to a handful of servers and ranked isn't being played. You are likely beating up on people with 1% of the amount of time you've played and you want to have bragging rights over them lol.

You're speaking from ignorance again. I genuinely can't imagine doing what you people do on the forums: talking about something with such confidence that you clearly know so little about. It's astounding.

Go look at the leaderboards. They're public. You can see for yourself how many characters participated in ranked.

[septru]

2 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

Bioware agrees with me, thats what they are putting their money on.

 

After all this arguing, you are still missing the point. 

 

Most players (ranked players included) like the idea of the PvP Season Track. Besides the catch-up feature, the PvP Season Track is a great way to offer rewards for participating in PvP, and incentivize new players to PvP.

 

But none of that has anything to do with ranked PvP. BioWare did not have to completely eliminate competitive PvP to create the PvP Season Track. You might want them to remove ranked PvP because somewhere down the road some person in ranked said a mean thing to you, but they didn't need to remove ranked PvP to achieve their goals. 

 

The PvP Season Track is a participation based grind, with 0 skill-based rewards. Ranked PvP, for all its flaws, was a competitive system, that rewarded players purely based on skill. 

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

9 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

it all comes down to you wanting bragging rights and let me feel special award in a 10 year old dying game. Bioware agrees with me, thats what they are putting their money on. If it fails we may see a return of ranked, but I imagine we never will. Good luck

I see they managed to fool you lol. They made pvp f2p, so that they no longer need to justify spending any resources on balancing or moderating pvp. They literally refer to pvp reports as "spam" now. They also moved everything to an automatically rotating vendor with a seasons system that they copy-pasted from Galactic Seasons. They don't even have to bother much with new rewards since they have a huge collection of previous ranked rewards that they can use as carrots now. They have pretty much set pvp up to be completely ignored after 7.2, and some people like you are cheering them on. 

[septru]

7 minutes ago, JediMasterAlex said:

Proper competition rewards the winners the most. That is not toxic, that is how it's supposed to work!

 

Can we get this stickied somewhere so BioWare can refer to it the next time they are changing PvP?

Edited December 11, 2022 by septru

[SaerethDL]

2 minutes ago, JediMasterAlex said:

I have already explained this...what is the point in responding if you're not going to bother to read my posts?

Obviously you need practice and determination, but the point is that those things alone are not enough. You also need some degree of innate skill, which applies to gaming as well, and you need to actively develop skill.

If you honestly believe that "anyone can do it if they put their mind to it," I honestly don't even know what to say to that lol. But as I've already said, when it comes to ranked in this game, there are tons of examples of players that played a ton of ranked, they fulfilled the "practice and determination" piece, and they still came up short.

Proper competition rewards the winners the most. That is not toxic, that is how it's supposed to work!

I don't know what this means. Bioware may have a target for how many people they want to have certain rewards, but there's technically no limit to how many people can get there.

And again, being "determined" is clearly not enough. Go sort the leaderboards by wins. You'll notice that very few of the people with a large amount of wins have high elo.

That is clearly the calculation that they made, yes. If they just outright said that, and didn't mix in gobbledygook, I'd have less of an issue.

You're speaking from ignorance again. I genuinely can't imagine doing what you people do on the forums: talking about something with such confidence that you clearly know so little about. It's astounding.

Go look at the leaderboards. They're public. You can see for yourself how many characters participated in ranked.

You sound like you need to hear this man. But you're not special, anybody can do it. They have done it before you, and they will do it after you. There will be somebody better than lebron james one day, and there are millions better than you (which its funny you compared yourself to him). Get over it.

Bioware is about making money, they obviously disagree with you and the rest of the vocal minority and now they are trying new things to get more people playing pvp.  If it fails they could return to ranked but I have doubts we will ever seen it again. Good luck on your next adventures.

There will be no more response from me. You are repeating the same things and I don't work for bioware and can do nothing to help you. I left feedback for something like this to happen, and I'm glad they listened, now I have resubbed and am excited for 7.2. My advice to you is to speak with your wallet if they don't listen. They have the metrics, they will see how many more or less subscribers/participation they get and act accordingly.