Veteran chapters and companions

[Screaming_Ziva]

Theron Shan is dead to me but I started veteran Disavowed for seasons and, of course, I needed him.  Died in the first battle because his influence was level 12.  Went to fleet, bought a compendium, but I had to wait until I was back in the chapter to give it to him because he is dead to me.

Then, after the first battle, I had to use Aric Jorgan.  Same thing except his influence was level 3.  Had to exit the chapter, go buy a compendium, but then had to re-enter the chapter to give it to him because he is unavailable to me outside of the chapter.

However, even after leveling Jorgan to 50, he seems to be having a hard time healing me in a veteran chapter.  Are these unbalanced after many level updates?

[Nee-Elder]

28 minutes ago, Screaming_Ziva said:

  Are these unbalanced after many level updates?

Yes.

And just wait 'til you try the MASTER mode versions.

A couple of the final boss fights....

Spoiler

( like the one with Arcann tag-teaming and the one  vs. Vaylin at end ) 

...are literally impossible  on MM  without help from player friends grouped into 'story phase' .

[Crystal_Mind]

1 hour ago, Screaming_Ziva said:

Theron Shan is dead to me but I started veteran Disavowed for seasons and, of course, I needed him.  Died in the first battle because his influence was level 12.  Went to fleet, bought a compendium, but I had to wait until I was back in the chapter to give it to him because he is dead to me.

Then, after the first battle, I had to use Aric Jorgan.  Same thing except his influence was level 3.  Had to exit the chapter, go buy a compendium, but then had to re-enter the chapter to give it to him because he is unavailable to me outside of the chapter.

However, even after leveling Jorgan to 50, he seems to be having a hard time healing me in a veteran chapter.  Are these unbalanced after many level updates?

Some of the KotFE chapters are rough on harder difficulties, but I found Disavowed to be among the easier ones on both Veteran and Master Mode. What spec are you playing for this chapter? If you have an option with extra stuns for the knights, that may help (you have complete loadout freedom in chapters).

[ThanderSnB]

Not all companions heal equally:

• 1st: Z0-0M - the best overall
• 2nd: Single or Dual Blasters companions - Theron Shan is in this group
• 3rd: Blaster Rifle, Sniper Rifle, or Cannon companions - Aric Jorgan is in this group
• 4th: Melee companions - All force users are in this group

Yeah, this means some chapters are easier or harder depending on the companion available to you.

Z0-0M heals best just because her abilities are strong. The other companions pretty much just have the same generic heals, so it would seem they would heal equally. I think the difference is in the animations. Blasters have shorter animations than the other weapons. If the player's health is not maxed, but the companion's heals are on cooldown, the companion will use their basic attack against an enemy. If a heal is off cooldown, but the AI is in the middle of the attack animation with their weapon, the animation has to finish before they can use the heal. There is a slight delay for blasters, but a longer delay for the other weapons. Over a long fight this longer delay between heals makes a difference in healing output, especially in the fights that are close (harder difficulties).

Melee companions have both slow attack animations as well as a delay as they move into melee range. Their AI tells them to get into melee range first, and only heal after. As enemies are defeated, they keep moving to new targets, adding more delay to their healing. Also, if you are playing a ranged character, they will often not be in range to heal you. They try to jump back in range to heal you (more delay), then jump back to melee range (more delay). Often, you'll just see them jumping back and forth, not really doing anything. So I generally avoid melee companions with ranged combat styles. You can get around this problem by always moving close to enemies before fighting, but this gives away your ranged advantage.

Edited November 21, 2022 by ThanderSnB

[Hadsil]

Lesson learned. Theron Shan is a hero. Always was. Always is. Theron Shan lives!

 

[streunekatze]

If it gets too hard, try to bring a friend along. They can help and bring another companion. But only the one who started the chapter will get credit for it. 

Also it can help to play a different class in vet fp, I usually like the sin/shadow to stealth past most enemies. Also I feel like most random ads groups are worse than the bosses. 

 

But yeah, the low level companions don't make it any easier. 

[Opiklo]

"Often, you'll just see them jumping back and forth, not really doing anything. So I generally avoid melee companions with ranged combat styles. You can get around this problem by always moving close to enemies before fighting, but this gives away your ranged advantage."

this provides little help, if you are forced to use acina in chapter 2.  
in fact all you wrote is pretty irrelevant to the chapters, as you will get fixed companions. 

[DWho]

I see these as less of a concern as they are optional content. It is the overtuned story chapters that are more an issue (though that overtuning does lead to the issues some may be having in the Veteran ones). New players are hitting these story chapters with low level companions and not up to Operations quality gear and are struggling. It's not a problem for vets with multiple characters at level 80 but gearing that first level 80 in your stable, takes a long time.

[OlBuzzard]

3 hours ago, DWho said:

I see these as less of a concern as they are optional content. It is the overtuned story chapters that are more an issue (though that overtuning does lead to the issues some may be having in the Veteran ones). New players are hitting these story chapters with low level companions and not up to Operations quality gear and are struggling. It's not a problem for vets with multiple characters at level 80 but gearing that first level 80 in your stable, takes a long time.

There's a LOT I'd like to try to do but with things where they are now there's really no reason to mess with it.  Less and less to do ..  less and less being released.
[/shrugs]
Where this is headed can't be that good right now!  It's getting to be difficult to see the brighter side of things!

[ThanderSnB]

14 hours ago, Opiklo said:

"Often, you'll just see them jumping back and forth, not really doing anything. So I generally avoid melee companions with ranged combat styles. You can get around this problem by always moving close to enemies before fighting, but this gives away your ranged advantage."

this provides little help, if you are forced to use acina in chapter 2.  
in fact all you wrote is pretty irrelevant to the chapters, as you will get fixed companions. 

I try to avoid making guesses about where someone is going with their questions and focus specifically on answering the questions asked. If they need further explanation, they can ask more questions until they receive all the help they need. In this case, they wondered why Aric was healing less than Theron (with both at level 50) and asked if it had become unbalanced over the years due to updates. I gave my theory for why they heal less (the attack animations have different speeds depending on weapon type). I will admit I could have been clearer by saying I didn't think it was unbalanced from updates but due to this theory. (Companions have been like this since 5.0 era at least.)

Edited December 3, 2022 by ThanderSnB

[DWho]

7 minutes ago, ThanderSnB said:

I try to avoid making guesses about where someone is going with their questions and focus specifically on answering the questions asked. If they need further explanation, they can ask more questions until they receive all the help they need. In this case, they wondered why Aric was healing less than Theron (with both at level 50) and asked if it had become unbalanced over the years due to updates. I gave my theory for why they heal less (the attack animations have different speeds depending on weapon type). I will admit I could have been clearer by saying I didn't think it was unbalanced from updates but due to this theory. (Companions have been like this since 5.0 era at least.)

I tend to agree that the animations may be the cause. With the significant reduction in companion healing performance introduced in 7.0, the "down-time" when they are not healing has taken on a lot more significance. It is similar to the issue you see with Force companions leaping back to your ranged PC. The jump takes 1-2 GCD each time it occurs. While jumping, they are not healing. From my own evaluation of companions from just after 7.0 dropped, matching styles seems to provide the best healing, though it is still significantly less than it was in 6.0. With 7.0, there is much less room for "error".

[Opiklo]

the companion act the same way animations and movement wise since 5.10(?) 
they fixed the issue that companions got stuck and after that the strange ports and leaps (which cant be disabled... why though?) started. 
also the commands you give them are ignored at times. 
as you can see many times in my playthrough. 

and the positioning of the companion is more important than their raw output. 
if they always port into stupid or run in front of an enemy it can really get frustrating. 

but still... it doesnt matter that zoom heals most. it doesnt matter that melees are basically an annoyance. 

in the chapters you got what you got. why should i bother that theron heals more than acina? theron is not there. 

 

[ThanderSnB]

9 hours ago, Opiklo said:

in the chapters you got what you got. why should i bother that theron heals more than acina? theron is not there. 

Because that's what the original poster asked, and the purpose of this thread is to answer that question. They didn't ask about strategies for completing this chapter.

[OlBuzzard]

19 hours ago, DWho said:

I tend to agree that the animations may be the cause. With the significant reduction in companion healing performance introduced in 7.0, the "down-time" when they are not healing has taken on a lot more significance. It is similar to the issue you see with Force companions leaping back to your ranged PC. The jump takes 1-2 GCD each time it occurs. While jumping, they are not healing. From my own evaluation of companions from just after 7.0 dropped, matching styles seems to provide the best healing, though it is still significantly less than it was in 6.0. With 7.0, there is much less room for "error".

Accurate summation.  Attacking groups on Manaan where there are "Medics" is a good example.  Unless I pelt the daylights with a disrupt of some sort, they are extremely difficult to kill.  In fact, if I screw up just a little ...  yeah... NOT GOOD!  There are other places this shows up... but this is fresh on my mind (senior moment again) ...  sorry!!

 

[JediQuaker]

I just did Chapter VII (I think - whatever one was for GS). It was a hoot. I had a hell of a time killing some of the harder enemies. I eventually had to give the companion (Senya) enough gifts to get her to level 10. Then I had to be relatively careful about using defensive skills and Heroic Moment. 

But in the end it was much fun to have to actually attempt to play well, rather than just steam-roller through. 🙂

Disclaimer: Level 80, 331 iRating.

Edited December 7, 2022 by JediQuaker

[GuigeekRhadamant]

On 11/21/2022 at 8:52 PM, Screaming_Ziva said:

Theron Shan is dead to me but I started veteran Disavowed for seasons and, of course, I needed him.  Died in the first battle because his influence was level 12.  Went to fleet, bought a compendium, but I had to wait until I was back in the chapter to give it to him because he is dead to me.

Then, after the first battle, I had to use Aric Jorgan.  Same thing except his influence was level 3.  Had to exit the chapter, go buy a compendium, but then had to re-enter the chapter to give it to him because he is unavailable to me outside of the chapter.

However, even after leveling Jorgan to 50, he seems to be having a hard time healing me in a veteran chapter.  Are these unbalanced after many level updates?

All comps were first bugged (7.0), then fixed but incredibly nerfed (7.1), don't expect to do MM chapters with pets now, they're useless in most content

[MortenJessen]

Wait... does dead companions from story mode lose their influence when used again in vet mode?? Ouch, I never knew that... Nice thing I only ever killed Skadge, and always will kill him, but only him.

[ThanderSnB]

20 hours ago, MortenJessen said:

Wait... does dead companions from story mode lose their influence when used again in vet mode?? Ouch, I never knew that... Nice thing I only ever killed Skadge, and always will kill him, but only him.

No, they keep their Influence. You can buy gifts ahead of time, start a chapter with them, level them with the gifts, and they will keep their level each time you do the chapter again. They are technically still part of the character. They just can't be summoned outside of the chapter.

[morfius]

On 12/7/2022 at 10:51 PM, ThanderSnB said:

No, they keep their Influence. You can buy gifts ahead of time, start a chapter with them, level them with the gifts, and they will keep their level each time you do the chapter again. They are technically still part of the character. They just can't be summoned outside of the chapter.

Actually (except Acina & Marr) they can be summoned. There is a terminal in Odessen phase that give you back any killed or made leave companion (Acina & Marr not but they are not standard ones), even those you loose due choice (Vette vs Caderra or Quin vs Dorne).

[SteveTheCynic]

On 12/9/2022 at 3:25 PM, morfius said:

Actually (except Acina & Marr) they can be summoned. There is a terminal in Odessen phase that give you back any killed or made leave companion (Acina & Marr not but they are not standard ones), even those you loose due choice (Vette vs Caderra or Quin vs Dorne).

Bear in mind that:

Spoiler

Unless they changed it, a killed Arcann cannot be recovered because you kill him *instead of* adding him as a companion rather than *after* adding him as a companion.