7.2 PvP Feedback: The Death of The PvP Community

[septru]

@JackieKo@EricMusco @KeithKanneg Many PvPers are dedicated to this game, but 7.2 will force them to quit the game. PvPers are already leaving en masse because of 7.2. In this post, I try to consolidate PvPers' concerns about 7.2. Please listen to our feedback. 

 

TLDR: Competition is a fundamental aspect of PvP. However, 7.2 completely removes competition from PvP and replaces it with participation rewards. Even if the goal is to incentivize casual players to play PvP, you don’t need to remove competition entirely to achieve this goal. Instead, create two opt-in leaderboard systems for 8v8 and 4v4 and rewarding a separate reskinned armor set to players that achieve a 50% win rate with 100 or more wins. 

 

BioWare’s 7.2 PvP Revamp Goals

There are 3 main goals in the 7.2 PvP Revamp: 1) increase PvP participation 2) encourage positive play 3) ensure pvp is rewarding. The first two goals are universally considered good goals. Everyone wants a bigger player base, a faster queue time, and less wintrading and toxicity. This is why most players are happy that the regular and ranked warzone queue is combined. 

 

The Problem

But the third goal (ensure pvp is rewarding), is where the PvP community has most of its concerns. It’s clear that 7.2 is meant to incentivize casual players to play and earn rewards through PvP. To do this, 7.2 creates a new PvP Season Track that allows casual players to earn participation rewards. The PvP Season Track can be progressed with minimal skill or competition through objectives such as “play X game,” “win 1 game,” “earn X medals.” All you have to do is show up with minimal effort,  and you get rewarded; literally the definition of a participation reward. (You actually don’t even need to show up since the “catch up” feature lets you unlock PvP Season rewards with credits. This is an awful feature and should be immediately removed.) 

 

These participation rewards would be completely fine, except these participation rewards are the only rewards. There are no additional rewards for the performance or skill of a player. In fact, BioWare actually removes one of these existing skill-based systems, Ranked PvP. Altogether, 7.2 removes competition based rewards from PvP and any incentive to improve. This is a really bad mistake. Competition is a fundamental aspect of PvP. Every PvPer will tell you the same thing: We want to earn our rewards with skill, not grind them through hours of playtime. Even if the goal is to incentivize casual players to play PvP, you don’t need to remove competition based rewards entirely to achieve this goal. 

 

Solution

To be clear, I am not advocating for the return of ranked PvP. Ranked PvP had a lot of problems: toxicity, wintrading, a steep learning curve, poor matchmaking… etc. But almost all of these problems can be attributed to the underlying problem of a low population. This is why 7.2 is a gigantic missed opportunity. Combining the regs/ranked population solves a lot of the problems with ranked PvP. Matchmaking would properly work, since the population would be large enough to support it. Wintrading wouldn’t be as easily possible since you can’t predict matchmaking. The learning curve wouldn’t be so steep for new players since they would be matched against other new players. And toxicity wouldn’t be so prevalent. For many, removing ranked is a mistake and a missed opportunity. 

 

But it’s clear that BioWare does not want to bring back ranked PvP fully back. Instead, however, we need a system that rewards both participation and competition. The best solution is a game-wide leaderboard system: one for 8v8, and another for 4v4. These leaderboards can be opt-in if casual players don’t want to be burdened with the competition. But players that want to compete need the option to compete. From there, you can reskin another Cartel Delegate's/Prospect's Armor Set to reward players that achieve a very low minimal threshold like 50% win percentage with 100 achieved wins. These rewards with a leaderboard would give players a reason to compete and improve their skill. 

 

Conclusion

I don’t want to repeat myself too much, but 7.2 has serious flaws. As it is right now, 7.2 will disenfranchise PvPers and many are quitting because of it. Dedicated and official BioWare Content Creator Mark Biggs already announced quitting SWTOR and the Content Creator program. Many other PvPers have voiced their concerns on youtube, discord, and the PvP section of these forums. I want to be very clear: 7.2 will lead to the death of the pvp community. Please listen to our feedback. 

Edited November 15, 2022 by septru

[Nee-Elder]

6 hours ago, septru said:

  1) the PvP community has most of its concerns.

 2) 7.2 will lead to the death of the pvp community.

 3) Please listen to our feedback. 

First,  @septru , not that you care but i really admire your point-of-view (and passion) .  However, and i say this without any "hate" but rather with great respect: You shouldn't presume to speak for the ENTIRE  PvP Community.   And obviously, while i actually agree with you on some points, you certainly don't speak for me nor my guildmates nor my friends (all of whom PVP just as often over past 10+ years and with as much vigor , so therefore have just as much valid opinions) .

Secondly,  i disagree with your "death" prediction and tbqh  making such hyperbolic type statements only end up undermining your other very legit concerns.

Third,  the rest of your post ^ was extremely well articulated and made a very strong case ( well deserving of all those click-likes from your pals  ) .  --  Just because i agree with BioWare's  overall decision to morph Ranked & Regs combined queue,  doesn't mean i don't also strongly agree with your specific  request for some semblance of a new 'Leaderboard' .  ( and your OPT-IN  detail is a particularly  wise nugget btw )

Lastly, you're going to ignore this post and probably  take offense to my 1st  paragraph (since you cannot hear my *tone* while typing)  but i truly am hoping for BioWare to discuss internally a way forward that pleases  the section of the playerbase that feels as you do , while also still satisfying whatever their ultimate "vision" is for post-7.2 era.  I'm betting they already are and will let us all know soon enough.

Once again, kudos to your efforts.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Nee-Elder
Reason: nuanced opinions are tricky to convey on forums

[ZUHFB]

2 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

You shouldn't presume to speak for the ENTIRE  PvP Community. 

If there is anybody I would want to speak for the ranked community its prum (aka septru). He knows what he is saying he is well known and resoected and he puts in time typing in these, factually, useless forums. I do it because I'm bored but he actually tries. He can very weĺl assume that he speaks for the entire ranked community and everything else cannot be considered PvP in my book, as players would rather walk past each other to click objectives.

You, or anybody, may dislike prum all they want but nobody can deny his request and suggestions are unreasonable. Regs don't have a community, they are just players maybe guilds but ranked has, or rather had, a community which is what I assume he meant.

Edited November 16, 2022 by ZUHFB

[Nee-Elder]

1 hour ago, ZUHFB said:

If there is anybody I would want to speak for the ranked community its prum (aka septru).

He didn't  say "ranked"  community though.  He said  PVP community (even in his thread  title) .   It's presumptuous  either way tbqh.  Not to mention unnecessary, since it added nothing to the validity of his argument.

1 hour ago, ZUHFB said:

You, , may dislike prum all they want

Read the rest of my post ^  and you'll  realize i'm def. not  one of  his  "dislikers" .

I'm also not a boot-licker either.  Therefore i can disagree with certain PARTS of someone's argument , or the manner with which they make it,  while still agreeing (and respecting) other core parts.

Nuance  isn't popular nowadays on the interwebs though, as i'm fully aware.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Nee-Elder
Reason: big diff between dislike & disagree

[ZUHFB]

1 hour ago, Nee-Elder said:

He didn't  say "ranked"  community though.  He said  PVP community (even in his thread  title) .   It's presumptuous  either way tbqh.  Not to mention unnecessary, since it added nothing to the validity of his argument.

If you'd have read the rest of mine you would've seen there is no pvp community without ranked community. There is no huttball guilds, there is no reg only guilds, but there are ranked guilds, there are ranked discords and even content creators...

[septru]

10 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

You shouldn't presume to speak for the ENTIRE  PvP Community.

I don't presume to speak for all PvPers, just most. 

 

And I don't say that to belittle anyone that disagrees. If you disagree with me, you should post a reply and voice your own opinions. But I also try to take a very moderate, balanced approach, that I hope all PvPers can understand even when their own views might be more extreme. 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by septru

[Nee-Elder]

6 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

If you'd have read the rest of mine you would've seen there is no pvp community without ranked community. There is no huttball guilds, there is no reg only guilds, but there are ranked guilds, there are ranked discords and even content creators...

Guess we'll find out  once 7.2 hits, won't we?

And i disagree with your 2nd sentence full of assumptions.

Regardless,  it has nothing to do with  septru's  very eloquent  OP , which i have already praised.  Twice now.

Let's hope BioWare  agrees with him,  cuz that's  the only *like* that matters.

See ya in the next thread.

Just now, septru said:

. If you disagree with me, you should post a reply.

i already did post a reply,  in whch i literally  AGREED with your main point & passion.  (but merely disagreed with certain assumptions & attitudes)

[septru]

1 hour ago, Nee-Elder said:

i already did post a reply

not specific to you. I think anyone that disagrees should voice their own opinions. 

 

12 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

Secondly,  i disagree with your "death" prediction and tbqh  making such hyperbolic type statements only end up undermining your other very legit concerns.

When BioWare announced that cross-server PvP was not a possibility in early 1.0, a lot of players left the game. However, even more players left the game when they realized that their friends were gone. I honestly am not exaggerating when I say that the few PvPers who remain after 7.2 will likely be extremely disappointed with the state of the PvP community. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by septru

[Nee-Elder]

11 minutes ago, septru said:

. I honestly am not exaggerating when I say that the few PvPers who remain after 7.2 will likely be extremely disappointed with the state of the PvP community. 

i respect your feelings, but i hope your prediction is a miscalculation.  And i really hope it's not becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Perhaps i'm naive, but i also still believe BioWare is currently  monitoring feedback and have serious discussions internally.

p.s.  At least you've  overtaken  'StevetheCynic'  on these forums  leaderboards!   ( sorry just trying to add some levity here )

Edited November 16, 2022 by Nee-Elder
Reason: BioWare please post an update BEFORE Thanksgiving break, for PVP community

[Samcuu]

This is a top post and I agree with all of it. Really need to reward the ppl who have a passion for pvp and want there to be records kept. You need to see the progress you make as you play for it to be ultimately rewarding. No system is going to be perfect but I do think the changes of getting more ppl into queue will help. The key is having a strong matchmaking system to ensure the right players are facing eachother, and then can see the fruits of their pvp labor in a leaderboard of some sort. Hope the devs listen to this. I'm not a ranked junkie but I'd hate to lose a portion of the pvp player base because of this. I think it's a pretty fair request to make and wouldn't be a good compromise to keep ppl engaged.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Samcuu

[Nee-Elder]

18 hours ago, cflems said:

For one, Prum is about the only well-spoken and intelligent mouthpiece the community has at the moment,

i disagree with your proclamation that he's the "only"  one of those , but otherwise  yes i'm fully aware of  who 'Prum' (septru)  is.   In fact, i've even tried participated in a couple of his prior PVP events.  (and by "participated"  i of course mean had fun getting  lol rekt  by more hardcore Rankers than i'll ever have time to be  )

18 hours ago, cflems said:

I don't know what kind of reckoning you anti-ranked crusading ______'s

No clue if you were also referring to me with that ^  (since you double-quoted replied)  , but i just want to make sure i convey this as best as i can type here:  While i support & suggested this 7.2  merge/removal  (whatever it ends up being) ,  i also would've been totally fine if  BioWare had just simply announced yet another  'Season 14/15'  of Ranked.   Honestly wouldn't have bothered me at all.

I just would've ended up spending more time posting about wanting  GSF & Crafting to finally get some attention after many years.

So no, i for one am not "anti-Ranked" .  But i am PRO  something better.

However, we are at the behest of the company that owns/runs SWTOR , so instead of  protesting  i've been trying to help find possible compromises & solutions, like this recent post within the actual official feedback sticky:  https://forums.swtor.com/topic/925871-72-pvp-feedback/?do=findComment&comment=9729109 ... piggy-backing off  of---you guessed it---the infamous  septru's  brilliant idea of  OPT-IN to new 'Leaderboard'.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Nee-Elder
Reason: please BioWare, add a new version of 'leaderboard' somehow

[ZUHFB]

Compromise? How bout not removing ranked since it doesn't effect 99% of people who are in favor of removing it.

[Nee-Elder]

6 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

Compromise? How bout not removing ranked since it doesn't effect 99% of people who are in favor of removing it.

Because most Developers believe MMO's have to evolve  when they become stale. (or when the owners just basically feel like it )

Ranked is probably no different.

Here's hoping the  final version of  7.2 will help more than hurt the game.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Nee-Elder
Reason: i get it , i mean i still miss 3.0 era myself

[Nee-Elder]

2 hours ago, cflems said:

 1000 posts telling them deleting ranked was a bad idea, you think that feedback gets passed along somewhere?

Also nah Nee I wasn't referring to you with that,

No worries.

And actually  yes i def.  think the BioWare Devs  (when they're not busy coding) are well aware of current feelings on 7.2  relating to Ranked, because remember they can still see all *deleted* posts & threads as admins. ( assuming these new forums work like most forums do )

However, and i admit  i'm slightly biased (since i've been on the other side  working on another SW mmo as QA/Coder before ) as well as  probably slightly naive , but i truly believe  the Devs are also discussing things internally while collecting all  PTS feedback & data.....trying to figure out a way to satisfy  the casuals, the hardcores, and the bossEAs.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Nee-Elder

[septru]

I want to address two points @EricMusco brought up in his recent PvP Dev Posts. Although he did not directly address the lack of competition based rewards, he hinted at 2 areas that he believes create less grindy, less participation-based, and more skill-based rewards: 1) earning the new PvP currency 2) progressing through the pvp track. 

17 hours ago, EricMusco said:

1) While [ranked rewards] will be available on the vendor, they will not be easy to obtain. The rate that players will be earning the new PvP currency will only allow them to purchase either new items or one to two replicas.

18 hours ago, EricMusco said:

2) One thing to keep in mind is that with the PvP Revamp that although progression is rewarded based on winning and losing, it is also based on medals earned. If you are performing very well, you should be earning medals for that performance which will translate into greater seasonal progression than someone not performing as well.

 

Let's be clear. If this is BioWare's way of incentivizing competition... this is a joke. 

 

1) Earning the new PvP currency

By the time players finish the PvP Season track, they will earn 12 pvp tokens. 4 additional special/challenging tokens can be earned through Feats of Strength achievements. These achievements include "Complete [Weekly] missions 25 times" and "Earn 2000 medals in Arenas and/or Warzones." THIS IS LITERALLY THE DEFINITION OF A GRIND. Let's be clear: the 4 additional pvp tokens are not harder to earn, just longer to grind. There's literally no skill in this.

 

2) Progressing through the pvp track

Musco claims that the season track will be long, and skill will allow players to move faster through the track. Firstly, even assuming the season is long (it's not), Musco just admits that the season track is a grind. Skill will just allow players to grind faster. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself. PvPers want to earn there rewards, not grind them. 

 

But the season track isn't even that long. The Season Track is 5200 points in total which players can progress through wins/losses, dailies/weeklies, and objective missions. Let's look at just wins/losses...

Wins give double the points as losses, and warzones give double the points of arenas. Assuming a 50% win rate (casuals may well be lower, but ranked players (if there are any left) will almost certainly be higher), it will take approximately 144 arena wins or 72 warzone wins to progress through all 5200 points of the Season Track. That's just win/losses, not even considering mission objectives or dailies/weeklies. Granted there is a cap on points per week because duh, it's BW. They want us to grind but not grind too fast. But if not for the points cap, the average PvPer would likely finish the PvP Season Track in maybe 1 month, probably less. Then what? What is there to work towards? What incentives are there to improve? 

 

I really don't want to beat a dead horse. But PvPers want real competition and skill based rewards. This means rewards that can't be grinded with playtime, or given out for just participating. No matter how much skill helps us grind faster. We want rewards that actually require skill. We want rewards that force us to improve. We want rewards that are based on merit and performance. 

Edited November 19, 2022 by septru

[Nee-Elder]

21 hours ago, septru said:

I want to address two points  EricMusco  brought up in his recent PvP Dev Posts.

i think you mean  this post specifically:  https://forums.swtor.com/topic/925847-old-pvp-rewards-in-72/#comment-9729365 ...  just so other people in this thread can have the actual reference (since most people never read 'Dev Tracker' )

21 hours ago, septru said:

I really don't want to beat a dead horse.

Sure ya do , but so what it deserves to be beaten, does it not?  At least until 7.2 goes  LIVE servers.

21 hours ago, septru said:

. But PvPers want real competition and skill based rewards. . We want rewards that force us to improve. We want rewards that are based on merit and performance. 

In my opinion,  most players (PVP or not) want that ^ , because human-nature  dictates that anything---even in a video game---is far more rewarding if  first presented as a relative challenge.  (i say relative because RL skill has an obvious sliding scale for gamers) .   Some might say  grinds are "challenging" , but i disagree.   Anyways, here's the problem....

BioWare hasn't  either had the resource$  or the willpower , in past couple years as you & others have said. to monitor & regulate  all the  *bad apples*  (win-traders, speed-hackers, bots, trolls, etc. )  and so i'm guessing that means they don't want to be bothered with any of that type of police'ing anymore going forward.  -- Doesn't anyone else see the IRONY with BioWare's choice of  'G.A.M.E.' name  and grind of  "catching cheaters" ?!?!?! --> https://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/10282022/game-update-7.1.1b

Plus, the 2022 'pruning' mandate/pattern is obviously affecting  EVERYTHING in the game now.

In theory, i wanted  Ranked & Regs to be combined....but now, in practice, i don't particularly like HOW  BioWare has gone about doing it.  ( i never asked for, nor anticipated, the total eradication of ANY 'leaderboard' and i'm still hoping they will reconsider that aspect in some form )

I'm glad  EricMusco finally posted some details & info  today.  However, so far he/they haven't answered the one question it seems like most hardcore PVP'ers really want to know:  Why do it this way?  --  Unless, as @Prapcaster astutely mentioned here:  https://forums.swtor.com/topic/925926-removing-ranked-was-not-asked-for/?do=findComment&comment=9728355  ...it's cuz they (Devs) are now tragically hamstrung by their own code.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Nee-Elder
Reason: the 'pruning' dominos continue to fall....

[ReveredDead]

The pvp community? What like only 10 people? 

[AldoraTheFirst]

I play this this game for over 7 years now, and I really love it. PVP is definitely one of the most fun part of it, and I play bunch of matches everyday. HOWEVER, ranked PVP is very closed community that just doesn't allow new players to join, and by new I mean the people who aren't skilled as those on the leaderboard, and who would actually want to develop their play, but just can't do it because of the toxicity that is widely spread. Competition is fine as long as you don't start telling people that they are incompetent, stupid, dumb, idiots, etc, because they just started with ranked or because they just aren't that skilled yet. How else someone suppose to progress and learn, if you are closing those opportunities to them? Of course, insults happen in unranked too, but not that often as in ranked. And before you say that someone can learn everything they need in unranked, that's not true and we all know it. 

Now, I agree about the reward part. I think that it should be more rewarding than they said it will be, but I guess they will introduce new rewarding system sooner or later.

Cheers!

[septru]

2 hours ago, AldoraTheFirst said:

HOWEVER, ranked PVP is very closed community that just doesn't allow new players to join

this post has nothing to do with ranked pvp

Edited November 20, 2022 by septru

[septru]

Had another idea to incentivize competition and skill based PvP, from a comment Musco made about rewards. 

On 11/18/2022 at 1:00 PM, EricMusco said:

The rate that players will be earning the new PvP currency will only allow them to purchase either new items or one to two replicas.

Unless prices are increased, this is actually not true. Players can get a total of 16 PvP tokens, and (the expensive) replica items cost 3-5 tokens.  At the current price, players can obtain 3-5 replica items. 

 

A simple solution is raising the price dramatically. Instead of 3-5 tokens, the most expensive replicas now cost 10-12 tokens. However, players can gain an additional 4 tokens through an automatic grant for any players that finish the season with over a 50% win rate. 

 

This way a) the price range of replica rewards are actually in line with the target price range b) BioWare incentivizes competition and skill based PvP, while still making all rewards obtainable through participation c) requires little actual resources of coding from BioWare. What do you think? @EricMusco @JackieKo

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by septru

[septru]

46 minutes ago, septru said:

Had another idea to incentivize competition and skill based PvP, from a comment Musco made about rewards. 

Unless prices are increased, this is actually not true. Players can get a total of 16 PvP tokens, and (the expensive) replica items cost 3-5 tokens.  At the current price, players can obtain 3-5 replica items. 

 

A simple solution is raising the price dramatically. Instead of 3-5 tokens, the most expensive replicas now cost 10-12 tokens. However, players can gain an additional 4 tokens through an automatic grant for any players that finish the season with over a 50% win rate. 

 

This way a) the price range of replica rewards are actually in line with the target price range b) BioWare incentivizes competition and skill based PvP, while still making all rewards obtainable through participation c) requires little actual resources of coding from BioWare. What do you think? @EricMusco @JackieKo

 

Update: 

 

With the updated prices (https://forums.swtor.com/topic/925875-72-pts-changelogknown-issues-list/) it seems like now players can only buy 1-2 tokens. However, there is still no incentive (reward) for competition or skill besides finishing the track faster. Although, I like these prices changes... without meaningful rewards for competition there is 0 incentives for hardcore pvpers to continue playing the game. 

[septru]

every single big pvp youtuber/streamer has announced they are quitting the game

 

biggs, nobleplays, ragequitting, kogass... the only exception is cease who hasn't said anything about 7.2

 

you think it was bad before? just wait until there's no one left to make PvP guides

[NicoleMay]

Ranked PVP has had such a low playerbase and is toxic AF to boot. Ranked isn't worth it if it's that few people competing, and a majority of ranked PVPers will tell you to uninstall or worse if you aren't absolutely perfect.

I am not huge on PVP, I only played ranked for mats during 5.8/5.9, and I barely play FPs but this change makes me want to play it more. So consider me throwing a party for the death of ranked

[JediMasterAlex]

10 minutes ago, NicoleMay said:

Ranked PVP has had such a low playerbase and is toxic AF to boot.

11 minutes ago, NicoleMay said:

a majority of ranked PVPers will tell you to uninstall or worse if you aren't absolutely perfect.

11 minutes ago, NicoleMay said:

I only played ranked for mats during 5.8/5.9

Is this meant to be satire? If so, well done.

[Weswhitebore]

On 11/29/2022 at 4:46 PM, NicoleMay said:

Ranked PVP has had such a low playerbase and is toxic AF to boot. Ranked isn't worth it if it's that few people competing, and a majority of ranked PVPers will tell you to uninstall or worse if you aren't absolutely perfect.

I am not huge on PVP, I only played ranked for mats during 5.8/5.9, and I barely play FPs but this change makes me want to play it more. So consider me throwing a party for the death of ranked

This is not the time for satire, not in the forums nor outside it for it is a bad time. 😅 There are literally crusades of people, famous and not famous, making an entire debacle, being cancelled, and completely dragged through the mud because of satire. If this is not satire, then well, you only playing for mats makes your points invalid.