Dash Exploit (Devs, please read)

[curulz]

Except the one that I can remember where THAT happened, tbey DID ban people who took advantage of those exploits. Sorry.

 

Well for the Ravagers exploit they primarily went after people who did more than just took advantage of it. I can tell you that for sure because I know people who got gear from it and no action was taken. I also know someone who did get a mini vacation but they actively helped keep instances open, spread the lockout, made money off it, etc. You say you know people who got banned for just using it, I'm not aware of any...so agree to disagree. The Dash exploit isn't quite on the same level as that one though because you only had to walk in, there wasn't anything extra one needed to do to get it to work. Its more akin to the old Nefra exploit where you didn't have to do anything special other than stand in a certain spot to bug the boss. Credits weren't exchanged, nothing special to get it to work, no secret handshake required to get gear, just stand in a spot for about 30 minutes and shoot nefra. That was handled with a "fix it and forget it" approach, which is likely what they're going to do with Dash. They don't really seem to care too much about people getting gear, more about people that actively profit off exploits. Combine that with the fact that the Dash exploit has been around for years, and doubtful any action will be taken on those who used in 7.0 no matter how much you feel people need to be punished.

[Real_Dark_Lord]

Simple answer. It's an exploit because it allows you to bypass boss mechanics. In this case almost all of them.

 

To determine if it is an exploit you should judge the action taken, not the result of the action.

 

e.g. if a find a bugged piece of terrain that allows me to clip though, were I'm still able to attack but can't be attacked, then yes, I'd be exploiting a bug.

If I take shelter from a sandstorm in a cave, I'm doing a reasonable thing, no matter how many bossmechanics I circumvent.

 

Creativity and Out-of-the-box-thinking will get you far in real life. There were times when PC-games actually encouraged this.

 

I don't know if you're old enough to remember the fight against your own shadow from the original 'Prince of Persia'.

He mirrored all you moves, killing him would kill you simultaniously. To get past him you had to

 

stealth your weapon and not fight him

 

essentially negating all Boss-mechanics.

 

I's sad to see todays games punishing players for creativity and shaming them.

Sorry, but shame is on you.

[Danery]

The only people who were ever mad and upset on the cave matter are the people who didn't take advantage of the method while it lasted. The people who were farming Dashroode are content and are not the ones complaining or ranting on discords about it.

 

The people who were complaining about the cave method this whole time are very much the same people who believe that Nefra should not drop Rakata gear. Some of these petty people have been so bothered by the availability of Rakata gear over the past month that they have even spent their game time joining Dashroode cave groups to taunt the boss and try to reset the encounter purposely. These are some very spiteful people who we should all feel a little sorry for.

 

 

 

You aren't applying consistent principles, and you don't get to pick and choose -- not if you are taking a principled stance. People bypass content and skip nearly the entirety of some flashpoints (Nathema, Traitor Amongst the Chiss) through various methods of stealthing, reset-evading mobs, doing weird jumps over terrain. You will be hard pressed to find people who haven't done this. No one is punished, nor should they be.

 

I had plenty of opportunities to do the exploit and I refused because it is a violation of the ToS to engage in exploits. Full Stop. Doesnt matter how big or small. And it is not inconsistent to say that stealthing around mobs is different that pulling a boss to an area where he should reset but because of a bug he wasnt resetting and people were negating one of the big mechanics of the fight. Those are not on the same level at all.

 

And for the record, I have no problems at all with Nefra dropping Rakata gear so your claim that people complaining about this dont want people getting Rakata gear off these bosses is a lie. I do Nefra every week in fact. The difference is that players arent getting the gear off Nefra through an exploit.

 

But at the end of the day, using a characters ability to stealth past mobs is not an exploit because the game allows you to do so therefore it is intended. Now we can argue about the whether or not doing things like reset evasions to get past trash counts or not. At the end of the day since you arent getting gear by doing it, and the only benefit is saving a little time, meh not up to the same standard as exploits that let you completely ignore mechanics and kill bosses you cant kill.

 

Yes some of these groups killed SnV NiM prior to 7.0. But that wasnt the statement and the person who said that knows it btw. The issue is post-7.0 they were using exploiting a bug to kill a boss that they lacked the ability to kill to get gear faster. It doesnt matter that some of them had previously done it legitimately prior to 7.0. It also doesnt matter how long the exploit has been around either btw. The ToS doesnt say dont do exploits unless theyve been around for X amount of time and then its all good. They have specifically addressed that point before that it doesnt matter how long its been around, dont do it.

 

No one may have benefited economically, as I did not see sells going around. But no it wasnt just people selling the Cora lockout and holding it open that got hit. It was also people that did it excessively. I would also note that people who did the Nefra exploit back in the day excessively received punishment too. And the fact that everyone here is acting as if exploits are no big deal is EXACTLY why they should do something, even if its just a slap on the wrist warning that the next time you are caught there will be stronger punishments. Because people somehow feel entitled now that they can do whatever they want, rules and ToS and everyone else be damned.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Danery

[xPhixius]

banning 90% of the player base seems like a bad business model

[Danery]

If you are correct that 90% of the player base engaged in this, which I highly doubt is accurate, then that would be all the more reason why they should at least do something even if its just a slap on the wrist to the worst offenders because if 90% of the player base thinks the ToS is nothing more than toilet paper to wipe their asses with then that says something about the people playing this game. And the next exploit might be one that does actual damage to the game and the game economy and 90% of the player base apparently thinks that is A-OK

[BlueRuggo]

I had plenty of opportunities to do the exploit and I refused because it is a violation of the ToS to engage in exploits. Full Stop. Doesnt matter how big or small.

 

And it is not inconsistent to say that stealthing around mobs is different that pulling a boss to an area where he should reset but because of a bug he wasnt resetting and people were negating one of the big mechanics of the fight. Those are not on the same level at all.

They are not merely stealthing around mobs though. In Traitor Amongst the Chiss, non-stealthers routinely climb up an invisible wall in order to run to the first boss checkpoint where all enemies reset. In Cademimu, almost every group uses the final boss room to reset and skip the trash before doubling back. In Ruins of Nul, people are avoiding almost the entirety of the second boss mechanics/adds by careful wall-hugging. There are so many other practices just like these. All of these things are of the same nature as Dashroode cave method in that they are manipulating encounters by capitalizing on the way enemies interact with specific terrain.

 

If your objection to the Dashroode cave method is based on "it is a violation of the ToS" (although I do not believe that is the true reason) then you should be advocating for punishment for all of the above as well. "Full stop. Doesnt matter how big or small." Those are your words. You don't get to pick and choose what is an exploit or which behavior should be punished based on your own personal dislike. Meanwhile, to enact such a mass punishment for these years-old behaviors would destroy a years-old equilibrium in which Bioware probably tacitly accepts the game has some cheesing going on that is mostly unimpactful and is not worth decimating the game's population over. For the ones that ruffle feathers, they overlook its usage while patching it so it is no longer possible. It is a compromise. So really, your take on this is wholly unsophisticated and puerile. Be grateful they even patched the cave method at all. Stop allowing the comings and goings of others to rent space in your head and just move on with your life.

Edited April 30, 2022 by BlueRuggo

[Chryptyk]

"What you must learn is that these rules are no different than the rules of a computer system. Some of them can be bent. Others can be broken. Understand?"

 

If 90% of people are using it, then it says it's what people want. So give the people what they want. And let's lose the other 10% instead of the 90%. The math is pretty solid to me. We are bleeding people quite badly at the moment, many of them at the nim level, which is already small enough as it is. Might as well get rid of the rest of them. I'm tired of hearing their toxicity anyways.

 

Also that you are so impassioned about the first boss of an op is very amusing to me. I'm still not convinced it's game breaking in any way. A credit exploit is a totally different beast and I would agree with you there. Letting people get gear from the first boss is fine with me because it doesn't hurt anyone other than in their own heads.

[curulz]

If you are correct that 90% of the player base engaged in this, which I highly doubt is accurate, then that would be all the more reason why they should at least do something even if its just a slap on the wrist to the worst offenders because if 90% of the player base thinks the ToS is nothing more than toilet paper to wipe their asses with then that says something about the people playing this game. And the next exploit might be one that does actual damage to the game and the game economy and 90% of the player base apparently thinks that is A-OK

 

You hold the TOS up like its some holy text that must be revered and protected at all costs because if they get away with Dash, they'll do worse in the future. But that is a fallacy. There is nothing to say that people doing Dashrood today will become emboldened to push the limits farther on something else. Second there is nothing that say if BW doesn't take action on people that did Dashrood today they will be powerless to take actions on a more egregious exploit down the road. Warnings and bans don't work to stop players from using future exploits (at least not for different players). Did the actions taken with Ravagers stop players from doing Dash? So then why would actions against players doing Dash now prevent players from doing something worse in the future? I just reject the notion that they have to do something to these players because of what might happen in the future because I see it as a flawed argument. Maybe, just maybe BW doesn't see this the same way you do. As some big slippery slope that failure to act will lead to anarchy. Maybe, just maybe BW sees it as something they didn't want to continue and fixed it...the end.

[BlueRuggo]

"What you must learn is that these rules are no different than the rules of a computer system. Some of them can be bent. Others can be broken. Understand?"

 

If 90% of people are using it, then it says it's what people want. So give the people what they want. And let's lose the other 10% instead of the 90%. The math is pretty solid to me. We are bleeding people quite badly at the moment, many of them at the nim level, which is already small enough as it is. Might as well get rid of the rest of them. I'm tired of hearing their toxicity anyways.

 

Also that you are so impassioned about the first boss of an op is very amusing to me. I'm still not convinced it's game breaking in any way. A credit exploit is a totally different beast and I would agree with you there. Letting people get gear from the first boss is fine with me because it doesn't hurt anyone other than in their own heads.

 

I would even go one further and say that despite its cheesy nature, the existence of the Dashroode cave method was a net positive for the game and helped sustain player engagement. It was something that kept people logging in every week, which is more than can be said for most activities.

 

Together, Dash and Nefra made up a significant percentage of groups forming in the general chat. It was easily pugged, accompanied by a real incentive, and players looked forward to it every week. Just as importantly, it was one of the few things that was just within reach of guilds whose members had a wide skill range to accomplish together as a group that felt rewarding to everyone. Some even planned a weekly event for it, which will now be replaced by something awful like SM EV for the millionth time or nothing at all. That is a pretty sad thing, but it is absolutely true.

 

Like it or hate it, unintended or not, Dashroode cave method was actually valuable group content and honestly what SWTOR should have more of. With this update, 7.0 lost one of the few things it had going for it and people just have one less thing to do when they hit 80, lol.

Edited April 30, 2022 by BlueRuggo

[Brandnewchafe]

Paboe out here trying to make their hot take in Allies become reality. You want to punish all the players that did this, then rip remaining player base of the game. GL finding tanks and healers for your teams after that. The game cannot afford to punish that many people and expect to survive. I'm not going to actively encourage people to do stuff like this, but if they do, then w/e. It is what it is.

 

This was not an exploit. Ravagers was an exploit. Some of those people only got a 3 day ban and kept all their gear regardless of how many times they did it. I'm not really sure why you're advocating so hard for something that doesn't affect you in the slightest. It feels like a really desperate attempt at superiority.

 

The company as a whole needs to focus on game fixes and patches instead of worrying about this type of trash.

[fushnchips]

They are doing it again in a new spot with a different style.

[Danery]

They are not merely stealthing around mobs though. In Traitor Amongst the Chiss, non-stealthers routinely climb up an invisible wall in order to run to the first boss checkpoint where all enemies reset. In Cademimu, almost every group uses the final boss room to reset and skip the trash before doubling back. In Ruins of Nul, people are avoiding almost the entirety of the second boss mechanics/adds by careful wall-hugging. There are so many other practices just like these. All of these things are of the same nature as Dashroode cave method in that they are manipulating encounters by capitalizing on the way enemies interact with specific terrain.

 

If your objection to the Dashroode cave method is based on "it is a violation of the ToS" (although I do not believe that is the true reason) then you should be advocating for punishment for all of the above as well. "Full stop. Doesnt matter how big or small." Those are your words. You don't get to pick and choose what is an exploit or which behavior should be punished based on your own personal dislike. Meanwhile, to enact such a mass punishment for these years-old behaviors would destroy a years-old equilibrium in which Bioware probably tacitly accepts the game has some cheesing going on and it is not worth decimating the game's population over. For the ones that ruffle feathers, they overlook its usage while patching it so it is no longer possible. It is a compromise. So really, your take on this is wholly unsophisticated and puerile. Be grateful they even patched the cave method at all. Stop allowing the comings and goings of others to rent space in your head and just move on with your life.

 

You really need to learn the difference between what exploit means and what you are describing. Yes some of the things you mention such as climbing invisible walls would qualify as getting out of the map and funny enough I dont do those things. Resetting trash isnt really the a bug so you arent exploiting a bug, but I also dont do those things. But stealthing past mobs? Not an exploit at all.

[Falensawino]

I found this gem of a quote in another thread, please follow the picture linked to read what players like this think like

I also promise that yes, people are definitely throwing for rewards and changing rewards didn't fix the problem: https://i.imgur.com/AFHH5p1.png

 

Name censored to protect the guilty because for some reason I have to.

the very last line in the linked picture is the real thing to look at

that's the general sentiment in the game now

And thats exactly WHY they should take some sort of action to show players that yes in fact the rules still matter and yes you still are expected to follow the ToS otherwise people will continue to act as if they can do whatever they want rules be damned

one of those 3 devs are so over tasked, they didn't even have time to proofread the copy and paste job for the May Events blog that went up today

 

Date: May 3rd - May 10th, 2022

Starting May 3rd and lasting until May 10th, there will be a Double XP event! Enjoy multiple weeks of Double XP, Valor, Renown, and more.

The events page says that 7 days is multiple weeks and it still mentions renown which was removed from game.

Ok, this is getting a bit embarassing now. They simply copied and pasted the old text regarding the double xp event from last time without even bothering to proofread it. Which is very strange, as they had to have changed the dates in that text.

Whatever the level is below negligence we are there.

 

 

https://www.swtor.com/info/news/article/20220429

 

when the blog post finally gets edited to correct the errors, here's a picture copy: https://i.imgur.com/dqI18pJ.png

 

I don't think there will be enforcement of the terms anytime soon, when things are like this.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Falensawino

[Chryptyk]

I would even go one further and say that despite its cheesy nature, the existence of the Dashroode cave method was a net positive for the game and helped sustain player engagement. It was something that kept people logging in every week, which is more than can be said for most activities.

 

Together, Dash and Nefra made up a significant percentage of groups forming in the general chat. It was easily pugged, accompanied by a real incentive, and players looked forward to it every week. Just as importantly, it was one of the few things that was just within reach of guilds whose members had a wide skill range to accomplish together as a group that felt rewarding to everyone. Some even planned a weekly event for it, which will now be replaced by something awful like SM EV for the millionth time or nothing at all. That is a pretty sad thing, but it is absolutely true.

 

Like it or hate it, unintended or not, Dashroode cave method was actually valuable group content and honestly what SWTOR should have more of. With this update, 7.0 lost one of the few things it had going for it and people just have one less thing to do when they hit 80, lol.

 

Oh absolutely it kept people engaged. The reason it kept people engaged though is flaws in gearing, class balance, and boss scaling with 7.0. We've had multiple threads about people complaining about not being able to get max level gear.

 

While the fully upgraded gear may not mean a lot to the people that are planning to move beyond this particular boss, it does mean a lot to the people who would not be able to get it otherwise. It will help give them enough of an edge to get past HM and then try to work their way up into NIM somewhere down the line, if they so choose.

 

With only one viable boss left now to gear up, progress will be slowed even further than it already was. So I say revert the change and let people farm it again however they want. Leave the choice to the player whether or not they wanna use that strategy.

[Chryptyk]

You really need to learn the difference between what exploit means and what you are describing. Yes some of the things you mention such as climbing invisible walls would qualify as getting out of the map and funny enough I dont do those things. Resetting trash isnt really the a bug so you arent exploiting a bug, but I also dont do those things. But stealthing past mobs? Not an exploit at all.

 

His point was that you would describe these other methods as exploits, but while you may not use them, you appear to be ok with them. What makes Dash such a huge deal to you is the real question?

 

As for not doing skips, etc in a random FP group. If you don't do it, more than likely you'll get kicked from it. Just saying its better to go along to get along and get things done faster.

[ZUHFB]

Oh absolutely it kept people engaged. The reason it kept people engaged though is flaws in gearing, class balance, and boss scaling with 7.0. We've had multiple threads about people complaining about not being able to get max level gear.

 

Ok so: Class balance ok, problems in gearing sure but boss balance??? Boss balance is perfectly fine right now, if it would be easy at the start of the expansion and your powerlevel increases during it it would be EVEN easier to complete. The bosses are (95% of them, excluding sisters and maybe trandos) fine, if you can't beat them you have 2 options: #1 Wait for gear, #2 improve. It's just that simple. Truth is that 6.X was just a walk in the park for MM raiders, now it's what they wanted: hard you actually have to do the 8 y.o. mechanics they were complaining about in 6.X and now they are complaining they wipe to 8 y.o. contetn while not doing the mechanics - what the duck?

 

In everything but OPs the gear difference is so minor from 326 to 330 that you don't meed the gear and you shouldn't be able to get it from PvP or god forbid conquest. And it's only a factor in .5% of the raids run... because looking at the parse often times gear seems to be 100% useless because in eveey single HM raid there were at least 2 persons who did HALF of the damage they should've done, but it doesn't matter. They did have 330 gear.

 

Conqest doesn't give 330 gear because conquest is too easy, "eh but isn't nefra easy too?" Yes she is but it's still harder then conquest? "But not everyone wants ro do hard content! They already work irl!" Ok? So do I? Don't want to farm gear that neither helps you nor is an improvement in ANY way? How bout you just don't do it then?! Thinking 330 gear makes everything easier is a delusion.

PvP doesn't drop it because it's capped to 326! Why would it drop 330??? Every other game rewards gear for completing challenging content, but in this game it's a problem? It's only a problem because you feel inferior to someone with the gear, group logging is only a problem because you feel inferior. It's not actually a problem, if nobody would've told you that group logging is a thing you wouldn't even have noticed.

Edited May 1, 2022 by ZUHFB

[Chryptyk]

SMs are basically still very easy. But then the scale up to HM was ridiculous. I know a lot of people who used to do HM that just can't anymore. While yes, they do need to get better, the disparity between 6 & 7 has been enormous. The current scaling has basically turned people off to it. The only people i know clearing HM used to do NIM, or at the very minimum Hardmare. No one asked them to tune HM like that.

 

As for NIM, i haven't done a lot of it in 7.0, but from what i've seen, its more of heal checks than dps checks, and even then the dps checks can only be gotten by class stacking the higher parsing specs, which we shouldn't have to do, but we have to in order to get anywhere.

 

We cannot assume that we will become more powerful as the expansion goes on. As you mentioned, the difference between 326 and 330 is minor and i agree with you actually. We cannot assume with higher level gear that things will get much better. In addition, getting said gear may not be feasible for most people. Worst case, only a very small group of people will be able to upgrade it fully. So in effect, only NIM people will become more powerful, leaving everyone else stuck where they are at now anyways, which will turn even more people off.

 

We need more people raiding, not less. By setting very high obstacles, we won't be able to grow the community. The upper echelon is shrinking more and more each day already. People need to be able to move up, but with such obstacles, the chances of that decrease.

[Valin_Marr]

Not everybody who has exploited a bug or credit exploit has gotten banned. I remember seeing a video on you tube around 5.0 a guy who 1 million rank 6 gifts in his legacy bank, and cargo hold. Guess bioware missed him. Why isn't the withering horror exploit getting more then this? Edited May 2, 2022 by Valin_Marr

[RikuvonDrake]

Not everybody who has exploited a bug or credit exploit has gotten banned. I remember seeing a video on you tube around 5.0 a guy who 1 million rank 6 gifts in his legacy bank, and cargo hold. Guess bioware missed him. Why isn't the withering horror exploit getting more then this?

 

cause neither are actually a big deal in the grand scheme of things, even for devs it seems they don't consider the usage of the dash/horror stuff to be an actual exploit requiring punishment and honestly who really cares, it gave some ppl a couple of extra rakata pieces that they don't need anyway