Urgent: For Jackie and/or Senior Producer....

[Ghost_Spectre]

I'm not sure to whom this should go to as I've not had to deal with this. My stream from 2/17/22 was partially muted because of music used (I believe) during the Nathema FP. 2 songs, according to Twitch: 'The trip to Naboo Temple' and "Queen Amidala and the Naboo Palace.' At no time have I ever had a VOD muted for streaming SWTOR.

 

It would appear that SWTOR used music they didn't acquire a 'mechanical license' to use. If they have received this, they need to inform Twitch that it is allowed to be used in a stream like all the other music from the movies or that which is owned by BioWare/EA and Disney. This can lead to serious issues for any streamer playing SWTOR live. It only takes 3 DMCA Copyright Strikes to have a channel shut down. So your attention and help in getting this resolved would be greatly appreciated.

 

This is a screenshot of the information from the muted VOD

Edited February 19, 2022 by Ghost_Spectre

[Raansu]

This isn't anything new.....Almost the entirety of swtor's music is prequel music. Youtube used to hit me all the time with clips I'd upload and on the rare occasion I streamed I would get that. Just stream with the music muted and play your own stream friendly music like most streamers do.

[Ghost_Spectre]

This isn't anything new.....Almost the entirety of swtor's music is prequel music. Youtube used to hit me all the time with clips I'd upload and on the rare occasion I streamed I would get that. Just stream with the music muted and play your own stream friendly music like most streamers do.

 

For certain games I do that. However, playing music that has nothing to do with Star Wars completely destroys the immersion effect of the game setting. Now, I wonder if SWTOR has what FFXIV has regarding their copyright and a license to use it IAW their rules. I stream FFXIV and I'm covered by this:

 

Final Fantasy XIV ("FFXIV") is comprised of materials such as art, text and logos that are copyrighted and/or trademarked. Square Enix Co., Ltd., and Square Enix, Inc. (collectively "Square Enix") grants you permission to utilize certain materials as specified below (the "Materials") on a non-commercial basis, for the purpose of supporting and developing the Final Fantasy XIV community, in accordance to the following terms and conditions.

 

Note: FINAL FANTASY is a registered trademark of Square Enix Holdings Co., Ltd.

 

Note: © SQUARE ENIX CO., LTD. All Rights Reserved.

 

It would wonderful if this game had the same thing.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Ghost_Spectre

[Raansu]

FFXIV music is made and owned by square enix. It's all original music. Everything from swtor is taken from the movies. Very little of the soundtrack is original, so what FFXIV allows just wont fly with swtor because of how music rights work.

[Ghost_Spectre]

FFXIV music is made and owned by square enix. It's all original music. Everything from swtor is taken from the movies. Very little of the soundtrack is original, so what FFXIV allows just wont fly with swtor because of how music rights work.

 

Disney owns all rights to the music, the IP and all rights therein. It stands to reason that Bioware/EA by extension have exclusive rights to use this. And like FFXIV they can issues something similar with permission from Disney, of course, to allow all images, game video, and music in a like manner that FFXIV allows there. I understand how this works, I've been involved with this before. It only takes BioWare/EA and Disney to take the necessary steps to ensure the Content Creators who feature SWTOR on their platforms have permission to use them in a non-commercial setting for involvement with the community of SWTOR. That means granting us a limited use license by the aforementioned entities.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Ghost_Spectre

[Tofu_Shark]

This isn't anything new.....Almost the entirety of swtor's music is prequel music. Youtube used to hit me all the time with clips I'd upload and on the rare occasion I streamed I would get that. Just stream with the music muted and play your own stream friendly music like most streamers do.

There is quite a bit of original music that was made for the game. Like all Star Wars games before it though, it does use a lot of music that was written for the movies though. I do not know the legalities behind this, but it must be complex for streaming, as a developer gets permission to use the music from the copyright holder. But I guess that does not extend to reproductions of gameplay which can be very annoying for people that want to show accurate reproductions of their gameplay. I'm not a lawyer, maybe a lawyer can clarify.

 

 

And OP, your title is awful. Tells me nothing about what this thread is about.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Tofu_Shark

[Ghost_Spectre]

And OP, your title is awful. Tells me nothing about what this thread is about.

 

Sorry, but didn't want to make it a long winded title. Just short to the point whom it is meant for.

[Ghost_Spectre]

There is quite a bit of original music that was made for the game. Like all Star Wars games before it though, it does use a lot of music that was written for the movies though. I do not know the legalities behind this, but it must be complex for streaming, as a developer gets permission to use the music from the copyright holder. But I guess that does not extend to reproductions of gameplay which can be very annoying for people that want to show accurate reproductions of their gameplay. I'm not a lawyer, maybe a lawyer can clarify.

 

Like I said above, streamers only require the protection of a 'Limited Use License' from the company. A number of game companies give them that. I use FFXIV as an example because I stream them; likewise, World of Warships does too for their content creators and community contributors.

[SteveTheCynic]

Tofu_Shark is on the money, about the rights thing and the thread title.

 

There's no guarantee that the rights that BioWare/EA obtains with their license to use the music *in*the*game* allows them to "forward" those rights to you, the streamer. As noted above, FF14's music is "in-house" compositions, recorded for Squenix, so they own all (1) the rights anyway, and can grant them as they see fit. BioWare/EA didn't create those pieces of "from the films" music, so it's entirely possible they don't have a sub-license right.

 

(1) It's more complicated than that, since there are two sets of rights concerning recordings. The first set is the rights to the music itself (i.e. the score), and the second is the rights to the *performance* (the recording itself). The realities of the situation mean that Squenix owns both sets anyway.

 

If I commission you to write music for me, and I hire Tofu to play the music and I record that, and I construct the contracts carefully, then I can do what I want in terms of sub-grants of license. In essence, you own the original rights to the written music, and Tofu owns the original rights to the recorded performance, but in both cases, y'all have agreed to let *me* exercise those rights as if I am the owner, in return for e.g. royalties or block payments. The general legal basis for that in US law is what's called "work for hire", where the rights that would normally accrue to the worker who creates or records the music (or other material) instead accrue to the employer in return for some form of payment.

[Ghost_Spectre]

Tofu_Shark is on the money, about the rights thing and the thread title.

 

There's no guarantee that the rights that BioWare/EA obtains with their license to use the music *in*the*game* allows them to "forward" those rights to you, the streamer. As noted above, FF14's music is "in-house" compositions, recorded for Squenix, so they own all (1) the rights anyway, and can grant them as they see fit. BioWare/EA didn't create those pieces of "from the films" music, so it's entirely possible they don't have a sub-license right.

 

(1) It's more complicated than that, since there are two sets of rights concerning recordings. The first set is the rights to the music itself (i.e. the score), and the second is the rights to the *performance* (the recording itself). The realities of the situation mean that Squenix owns both sets anyway.

 

If I commission you to write music for me, and I hire Tofu to play the music and I record that, and I construct the contracts carefully, then I can do what I want in terms of sub-grants of license. In essence, you own the original rights to the written music, and Tofu owns the original rights to the recorded performance, but in both cases, y'all have agreed to let *me* exercise those rights as if I am the owner, in return for e.g. royalties or block payments. The general legal basis for that in US law is what's called "work for hire", where the rights that would normally accrue to the worker who creates or records the music (or other material) instead accrue to the employer in return for some form of payment.

 

I'm going to tell you this once Steve, take it for whatever you deem it worth. I was intrinsically involved in recording to projects for a group I was part of. We were required to obtain mechanical licenses (they are called this because it refers back to the old jukeboxes that had 45s). These are 1 time charges for each song writer/artist who owned the rights to said music. We were not required to pay royalties. That was covered by the license to which we paid for. Each license required us to pay for the number of CDs/Tapes we had produced. In our case, it was 1,000 each. At the time that was 2,000 dollars. This is how the system works.

 

While SE gives a limited use license for their IP, SWTOR can do the same thing under the "not for commercial use." This means when we stream, said music playing from the game is not being used commercially and no profit is made for the playing of the specific song. It comes from the game. This only requires the IP owner to authorize such a limited use license as FFXIV does. The song writer, producer, recording studio were paid for their part. Royalties aren't involved because it is with a movie. They receive a contracted amount of money.

 

If, as you indicated royalties are paid, then the movie studio would not be able to pay that because of how many times the movie is shown in a theater, nor would the be able to afford to produce any DVDs, because "royalties are required." It does not work that way. You'd not see said movie on TV or Cable channels like HBO or the others. As they would be required to pay royalties too. And like recording music owned by someone else, the mechanical license covers the cost of recording the song and the total number of CDs/Tapes and now digital audio files released.

 

As I said, I am very familiar how this works. You can dispute me if you want, it does not change my experience in what I was involved with and the requirements we fulfilled to legally record and make money off of those songs. Streaming SWTOR on a channel does not constitute making money on a song originating from the video game. It would; however, be considered if the songs were requested and paid to the streamer to play them if they had the song tracks of all the movies and SWTOR music. That is commercial use for profit.

 

Now, I appreciate y'all's input; however, I need to hear from BioWare so we can come together to figure out how to protect those content creators who stream the game. If they do not want to help or refuse to acknowledge my concern, not just for me, for all SWTOR streaming CCs, that's on them. I for one, will not stream the game anymore to protect myself and my channel. I do hope that they will respond and soon. This is a very important issue and not one to be ignored by any content creator nor BioWare/EA.

[Raansu]

Protect content creators lol.

[Kellorion]

I'm going to tell you this once Steve, take it for whatever you deem it worth. I was intrinsically involved in recording to projects for a group I was part of. We were required to obtain mechanical licenses (they are called this because it refers back to the old jukeboxes that had 45s). These are 1 time charges for each song writer/artist who owned the rights to said music. We were not required to pay royalties. That was covered by the license to which we paid for. Each license required us to pay for the number of CDs/Tapes we had produced. In our case, it was 1,000 each. At the time that was 2,000 dollars. This is how the system works.

 

While SE gives a limited use license for their IP, SWTOR can do the same thing under the "not for commercial use." This means when we stream, said music playing from the game is not being used commercially and no profit is made for the playing of the specific song. It comes from the game. This only requires the IP owner to authorize such a limited use license as FFXIV does. The song writer, producer, recording studio were paid for their part. Royalties aren't involved because it is with a movie. They receive a contracted amount of money.

 

If, as you indicated royalties are paid, then the movie studio would not be able to pay that because of how many times the movie is shown in a theater, nor would the be able to afford to produce any DVDs, because "royalties are required." It does not work that way. You'd not see said movie on TV or Cable channels like HBO or the others. As they would be required to pay royalties too. And like recording music owned by someone else, the mechanical license covers the cost of recording the song and the total number of CDs/Tapes and now digital audio files released.

 

As I said, I am very familiar how this works. You can dispute me if you want, it does not change my experience in what I was involved with and the requirements we fulfilled to legally record and make money off of those songs. Streaming SWTOR on a channel does not constitute making money on a song originating from the video game. It would; however, be considered if the songs were requested and paid to the streamer to play them if they had the song tracks of all the movies and SWTOR music. That is commercial use for profit.

 

Now, I appreciate y'all's input; however, I need to hear from BioWare so we can come together to figure out how to protect those content creators who stream the game. If they do not want to help or refuse to acknowledge my concern, not just for me, for all SWTOR streaming CCs, that's on them. I for one, will not stream the game anymore to protect myself and my channel. I do hope that they will respond and soon. This is a very important issue and not one to be ignored by any content creator nor BioWare/EA.

 

Yea, i didnt read any of this, but i'll say this 1 time.

They have an army of 200/hr lawyers on retainer. they make the rules.

 

Its sucks.

Its blows.

It shouldnt be that way, at all.

Its wrong.

 

And thats the way it is.

[Ghost_Spectre]

Protect content creators lol.

 

Something wrong with that? Something wrong with wanting to be doing something legal and protected?

[Ghost_Spectre]

Yea, i didnt read any of this, but i'll say this 1 time.

They have an army of 200/hr lawyers on retainer. they make the rules.

 

Its sucks.

Its blows.

It shouldnt be that way, at all.

Its wrong.

 

And thats the way it is.

 

Rules that can be adhere to if you are given specific permissions and a limited use license. Had you taken the time to read it, then you'd know the content and context of my post and how it relates to obtaining a limited use license from BioWare/EA/Disney. Specifically, one from BioWare would suffice. Otherwise, why bother posting if you're not going to take the time to read?

Edited February 19, 2022 by Ghost_Spectre

[Raansu]

Something wrong with that? Something wrong with wanting to be doing something legal and protected?

 

Streaming is fun, but I'd hardly consider streaming a game as creating content lol.

[Ghost_Spectre]

Streaming is fun, but I'd hardly consider streaming a game as creating content lol.

 

Well, you are practically by yourself in that thought.

[SteveTheCynic]

While SE gives a limited use license for their IP, SWTOR can do the same thing under the "not for commercial use."

Does your streaming site forward a cut of advertising revenue to you? If so, you're earning money off the stream, and you'd need a very good lawyer to be able to justify a claim that it isn't "for commercial use".

[Ghost_Spectre]

Does your streaming site forward a cut of advertising revenue to you? If so, you're earning money off the stream, and you'd need a very good lawyer to be able to justify a claim that it isn't "for commercial use".

 

And you'd be wrong. Commercial use of 'music' is the topic here. Not advertisement. You're reaching for something and you're not grasping it.

 

For me or any streamer to qualify as commercial usage would require us to actively play music from another platform, such as YouTube, Spotify, or Amazon Prime Music, and charge for doing so. This is where all this really started. Players did not separate the music they were playing or weren't aware they needed to from their VOD (video of the day).

 

Yet, in their VOD you can still see the songs being played because of the pop up stating said view paid $$$ for "name of song." This is using their channel for profit commercially.

 

In doing that, they are violating copyright of said music denying the song writer who owns the rights to that song or the record label who purchased the rights from the originator any payment from, a mechanical license. The only time an entertainer is included is if they are the originator of the song lyrics and music for the song retaining the rights to the song/music.

 

As for me getting any payment from advertisement, subscription, or donations, does not fall under commercial or retail business. These are unsolicited and given in support to the channel/streamer. Advertisers have an association with Twitch who collects 50% of the revenue for themselves while streamers (affiliates) get 50% or they take 25% if one is a partner. One has to run advertisement or it is automatically done by Twitch. I'm set up to do it myself, if I remember to do so, and my subscribers aren't forced to see commercials.

 

These are arrangements provided to streamers for using Twitch platform as a reward, not work. We are not paid employees nor do we work for hire or piece work either. Revenue generated by a channel is taxable and reported by Twitch to each country's tax service.

 

I do not take payment or donations for playing music. I do not have it set up and will not. I can't say much to those who do, they know the risks. This is, IIRC, more prevalent in foreign countries. I hope this clears up your assumption that receiving any $$$ from Twitch for advertisement is completely unsolicited and not contracted. This does not make my channel or any other content creator's channel a commercial enterprise. Except when said channel is set up as such an entity such as company's like Wargaming, Razor, and the rest with a presence on Twitch.

[-Spc]

Same here, i normally stream SWTOR but this is insane, all of my streams are muted and i have copyright strikes all over for just only streaming and playing operations.