Do you ppl saying the nerf was good understand eco?

[LeperJack]

What you say is hilariously wrong sorry. You seem to be the one whi doesnt understand economy.

Hello mr. pot. Have you met mr. kettle? Ah. I see you don't get along.

 

Ye you right Slicers have less money to buy the stuff other players sell and other players therefore also have less money.

Well you're partially correct so far.

 

BUT those other players also need less money cause less money in the economy means they can buy items cheaper also.

Really. Is this how it's working on your server right now? I don't think it is. I think on your server prices have remained stable or risen, and overall market volume of sales has decreased drastically not just in money exchanging hands, but also in the amount of actual items being sold.

 

But let's say for a second that everything works like you think it does. (LAWLZ)

 

Material prices drop so they're cheaper to make, but there's actually a floor to that: because materials have an associated cost with gathering them. The price will not fall below this point and maintain itself. People will realize they're losing money getting them, and stop getting them for you to buy.

 

So there's actually a deflation cap.

 

In the meantime, (and you'll figure this out when you get a toon to about 30 or so) the games other fixed costs are going to be that much higher for you. At level 28 when you drop 28,000 credits JUST to train your new class skills, and your repair bills run about 10-15k each, and your deflated economy nets you 2k an hour on your other crafting skills because slicing was not there to provide the necessary initial inflation, let me know how fun that is.

 

 

The thing is though that the large amount of money pushed into the game by slicers would just cause inflation ingame.

Please explain why this is bad other than you heard someone say "inflation" like it was a bad thing once and you now assume it is.

 

All items would just cost more. An item that cost 100 credits would then cost 1000 credits to buy.

Possible, but slicing returns are capped as noted--that actually creates an inflation cap as well.

 

That also means you only need to sell 28 things you made to your friends to get the money to train at level 28 instead of 280.

 

The only difference after the nerf is that slicers dont exlusively have the by far best (and maybe even only realistic) way of generating money.

If you think they made the best money, or even had a GOOD way to make money, you're mistaken. I'm trying very hard not to write you off as someone who has no idea how this game actually works, but you're making that difficult.

 

Despite selling half of what I was pre-nerf, I'm still pulling in about 200k a day in profits from gathering and CRAFTING skills. I do this with about 5 hours worth of play, and it's really not even that strenuous. i'm doing part of it right now, actually.

 

It involves zero slicing.

 

Its all about balance, if one preofession trumps the others conderning revenue production then all other professions seem lame.

Okay, well then right now we need to nerf every single crafting and gathering profession there is... aside from perhaps armormech and armstech. orange items for those do sell really well.

 

I am sorry you cannot see that and in a selflish manner only think about your personal advantage over others ingame rather then wanting balance and a healthy game.

Hi mr. pot, have you met mr. kettle? I see... owait. We did this already.

[Bluejayoo]

I have a degree in economics and have worked building financial applications and modelling tools for 20 years.

 

And yes, the slicing nerf was a good thing.

 

Here is some suggested reading for you...

 

http://www.questia.com/library/economics-and-business/economics/economic-conditions/inflation.jsp

[orenoramu]

The nerf was terrible... you people who are saying "nerf slicing, I have 2 gathering skills and wasn't making as much as slicers with one" cut your own throat.

 

The money the slicers were putting into the economy BUYING STUFF FROM NON SLICERS is now gone. Did your servers AH just die, or the prices you were getting plummet?

 

Guess why. If they haven't yet, they will.

 

Z

 

Actually I think you might not fully understand economics. Do you know the term inflation? Do you understand the dynamics of having more money pumped into a market?

 

Let me break it down for you:

 

Item A trades on the market for X dollars currently and is beocming a high demand product. Eventually sellers of Item A will realize there is short supply in market due to the fact that people keep buying. Well anyone would be able to then deduce that if they raise the price, people will still buy. Now Item A then trades for 2X and eventually 3X and so on. Sellers are now making a ton of money on an item thanks to buyers who had 10x the disposable income of the average person thanks to something like Slicing. Now the market has been flooded with cash and items now cost 2-3 times they did a month ago. new traders in the market now must find a way to be able to afford items that they thought they could last month, so what do they do? Turn to something known to "make money". Eventually everyone will turn to slicing if that's the number one money maker and everyone will have so much money they will pay any price.

 

yes after the nerf the money coming into the economy will "drop" but it will be balanced because the majority of the people will not have bloated income. The AH won't die, prices will adjust to what the norm is based on people's purchasing power and everyone will be able to afford things as they should and markets will be stable.

[OdonKnight]

The nerf was terrible... you people who are saying "nerf slicing, I have 2 gathering skills and wasn't making as much as slicers with one" cut your own throat.

 

The money the slicers were putting into the economy BUYING STUFF FROM NON SLICERS is now gone. Did your servers AH just die, or the prices you were getting plummet?

 

Guess why. If they haven't yet, they will.

 

Z

 

 

 

I know you mean well and I know what you want is for your effort and time (sending follower x on a mission) to be productive in credits above and beyond any specials you get as well as the increase in skills. I get that. Nothing wrong with having that opinion except it is a time-bomb for the economy as a whole.

 

1. It enables low level chars to race through slicing and have exceedingly high amounts of money as compared to non-slicers of the same level. Cost of players sold goods climbs as well as diluting the difficulty of getting mounts/etc.

 

2. As the slicer is also a crafter the slicer can buy all the goods they want and make their crafted items and destroy non-slicers from penetrating the market. (as rare items for better than green designs are expensive)

 

3. The biggie - Having the ability to click a few buttons for a relatively low level character to send off companions that results in a profit is an open invitation to massive gold farmers/bot farming for credits which will then make economic problems of increased cash availability worse. The more money there is of a currency the less it is worth.

 

BW absolutely has to remove the ability to click a few buttons and print money. They just had to. Are further tweaks necessary - absolutely. The virtual economy is still just getting started.

 

Printing/creating money devalues that money - making prices go up. The more printing - the more the inflation. Inflation will happen - but is compounded by printing money plus will be made worse the more people figure out how to bot farm credits and pre-nerf slicing was fertile ground - click one button and wait.

[ryancwn]

the majority of the people will not have bloated income. .

 

this assumption alone is wrong.

[LeperJack]

I have a degree in economics and have worked building financial applications and modelling tools for 20 years.

 

And yes, the slicing nerf was a good thing.

 

Here is some suggested reading for you...

 

http://www.questia.com/library/economics-and-business/economics/economic-conditions/inflation.jsp

 

ORLY?

 

That's cool, because here's something you'll like:

 

http://www.questia.com/library/psychology/abnormal-psychology/lying-and-truthfulness.jsp

[Wildfae]

People still dont understand basic economics.

Old system:

Slicers were like the US mint. they could Print off money in the game and afford WHATEVER they wanted. If you were a scavenger though, you didnt have this ability. Sure you could maybe try to sell your mats for a small profit, but thats if someone wanted them. vendor trashing them got you nowhere. And if you could use your mats to make something, you MAY be able to sell it for a profit, but lets be honest, drops from quests and heroics earn you just as good if not better equipment. So now you have to sink money into a craft to desynth and get a purple recipe. Then you have to try and see if their is a market for that product. meanwhile Slicers are just vendor trashing their way to more and more money. How anyone can look at that and say, "Well yea that makes sense" Is dumb. its not necessarily the slicers fault, its that the goods that crafters are given to make generally dont add any value for a lot of time and money invested. Slicing requires no time, no money invested and just allowed people to make money with NO RISK. That is a problem. If you dont want to risk anything dont craft. A game should not give players an opportunity to print money. Its not like any crafting skill is a huge money maker.

[Msbungle]

Item A trades on the market for X dollars currently and is beocming a high demand product. Eventually sellers of Item A will realize there is short supply in market due to the fact that people keep buying. Well anyone would be able to then deduce that if they raise the price, people will still buy. Now Item A then trades for 2X and eventually 3X and so on. Sellers are now making a ton of money on an item thanks to buyers who had 10x the disposable income of the average person thanks to something like Slicing. Now the market has been flooded with cash and items now cost 2-3 times they did a month ago. new traders in the market now must find a way to be able to afford items that they thought they could last month, so what do they do? Turn to something known to "make money". Eventually everyone will turn to slicing if that's the number one money maker and everyone will have so much money they will pay any price.

 

The problem is that this is not the same type of economy. Not exactly. You will always have people like myself willing to undercut. I know the big sellers may buy my items and repost them though.

 

And even in our world economy there are those willing to undercut (ever hear of Wal-mart). All it takes are a few people to either undercut or massive production of the same item (and that tends to happen as well) and the price drops. If you aren't in it in the first wave, those 3x prices can drop quickly once everyone has said item. The only thing that may retain their price are consumables.

 

The other difference between this game and inflation in the real world? The corporation making the item doesn't care if you buy at that price. If you don't someone else will. They can write off their losses on their taxes. People in this game want to make a sale. They will cut prices if it means doing so.

[LeperJack]

Actually I think you might not fully understand economics. Do you know the term inflation? Do you understand the dynamics of having more money pumped into a market?

Except that credits aren't money.

 

 

Yes, they serve as currency, but they do not function solely as currency.

 

Credits can be given directly in exchange for goods or services. (Yes, they are money in this sense! that's why i put this here.)

 

Credits also Directly create raw materials, modify raw materials into unfinished and finished products. In this way they function like man-hours. I'd assume someone with 20 years experience in marketing applications would have picked up on this incredibly basal and easy to note difference between "money" and "credits" from the start.

 

I can't throw $50 out the window and have it fetch a stack of lumber, or build a dining room table, or fix my car. But I can do exactly that with credits, at any time.

 

Slicing provides "money" but it also provides "labor" needed to create the goods to get an economy going. If I cannot afford to train skills and repair equipment, can I afford to run the missions that return the materials that cannot be harvested any other way? No, I cannot.

 

In short, sir, I call shenanigans on your claim of any sort of economic learning beyond perhaps looking up the word "inflation" in a dictionary.

[Darth_Gao_Gao]

slicing is still profitable if you aren't a nerf herder about it. furthermore, it seems that the OP doesn't understand the economy either.

[OdonKnight]

Except that credits aren't money.

 

 

Yes, they serve as currency, but they do not function solely as currency.

 

Credits can be given directly in exchange for goods or services. (Yes, they are money in this sense! that's why i put this here.)

 

Credits also Directly create raw materials, modify raw materials into unfinished and finished products. In this way they function like man-hours. I'd assume someone with 20 years experience in marketing applications would have picked up on this incredibly basal and easy to note difference between "money" and "credits" from the start.

 

I can't throw $50 out the window and have it fetch a stack of lumber, or build a dining room table, or fix my car. But I can do exactly that with credits, at any time.

 

Slicing provides "money" but it also provides "labor" needed to create the goods to get an economy going. If I cannot afford to train skills and repair equipment, can I afford to run the missions that return the materials that cannot be harvested any other way? No, I cannot.

 

In short, sir, I call shenanigans on your claim of any sort of economic learning beyond perhaps looking up the word "inflation" in a dictionary.

 

Read: http://wow.joystiq.com/category/gold-capped/

 

You'll learn many things including how virtual economies like in a game behave like real economies do - you know why - the people in the economies. The difference is the rule-set on them.

 

Slicing is like printing money = little time invested and $$$ created. Anything else is far more time consuming - less ROI in regards to time spent. The more of something there is the less it is worth.

[MagusDei]

Here's the numbers from some of yesterday's slicing missions (skill started the day at 377, now 400):

 

Aric - 560cr rich mission, returned 658cr

Aric - 535cr rich mission, returned 474cr

Aric - 1250 bountiful mission, returned 1394

Aric - 460cr abundant mission, returned 1194

Aric - 1485cr abundant mission, returned 1242cr

Elara - 95cr moderate mission, returned 125cr

Elara - 870 rich mission, returned 689cr

Elara - 1485 abundant mission, returned 1208cr

 

So, about 2 hours 36 minutes total mission time, net gain 244 credits.

 

I think that's a bit more than 'nerfed'. I can make much more just selling scavenged materials at half the time.

[Swids]

I want to say this one thing about slicing i dont care wether you think the nerf was good or bad i tell you one thing though you will see more credit farmers / sellers now i didnt technically agree witht the amount slicing give players it was easy money but i hoped it would seriouslly reduce the obove mentioned scum. Now it will end up like many other MMO's constant credit spam in chat whispers from level 1 chars all the time. I say make it easier to earn credits the more easier the better get rid of the scum that sell and spam all the time.

[The_Archon]

The nerf was terrible... you people who are saying "nerf slicing, I have 2 gathering skills and wasn't making as much as slicers with one" cut your own throat.

 

The money the slicers were putting into the economy BUYING STUFF FROM NON SLICERS is now gone. Did your servers AH just die, or the prices you were getting plummet?

 

Guess why. If they haven't yet, they will.

 

Z

 

I went through my GTN last night and everything appeared normal. I had about the same number of mats for sale at the same prices, there are still a ton of augments selling for dirt cheap (and this will improve for you guys eventually).

 

Guess why. Because slicing is still highly profitable, you just cannot make alts and click crew missions all day anymore like you used to.

[XoChineXo]

What you say is hilariously wrong sorry. You seem to be the one whi doesnt understand economy.

 

Ye you right Slicers have less money to buy the stuff other players sell and other players therefore also have less money.

BUT those other players also need less money cause less money in the economy means they can buy items cheaper also.

 

The thing is though that the large amount of money pushed into the game by slicers would just cause inflation ingame. All items would just cost more. An item that cost 100 credits would then cost 1000 credits to buy.

 

The only difference after the nerf is that slicers dont exlusively have the by far best (and maybe even only realistic) way of generating money.

 

Its all about balance, if one preofession trumps the others conderning revenue production then all other professions seem lame.

 

I am sorry you cannot see that and in a selflish manner only think about your personal advantage over others ingame rather then wanting balance and a healthy game.

 

You've left out the fact that the economy in question has established static credit sinks. In this case, very hefty sinks. Inflation will come regardless, the economy will mature b/c players will hit lvl 50 and earn more per/cycle of established static income (mobs, quests, etc.). 500 credits today will not be worth 500 credits 3 months from now. It will be worth way less 1 year from now. This is regardless of early game inflation.

[The_Archon]

Here's the numbers from some of yesterday's slicing missions (skill started the day at 377, now 400):

 

Aric - 560cr rich mission, returned 658cr

Aric - 535cr rich mission, returned 474cr

Aric - 1250 bountiful mission, returned 1394

Aric - 460cr abundant mission, returned 1194

Aric - 1485cr abundant mission, returned 1242cr

Elara - 95cr moderate mission, returned 125cr

Elara - 870 rich mission, returned 689cr

Elara - 1485 abundant mission, returned 1208cr

 

So, about 2 hours 36 minutes total mission time, net gain 244 credits.

 

I think that's a bit more than 'nerfed'. I can make much more just selling scavenged materials at half the time.

 

That's great. How many nodes did you gather out in the world?

 

Want to know how much money the other gathering professions get from mere missions?

[LeperJack]

The problem is that this is not the same type of economy. Not exactly. You will always have people like myself willing to undercut. I know the big sellers may buy my items and repost them though.

 

And even in our world economy there are those willing to undercut (ever hear of Wal-mart). All it takes are a few people to either undercut or massive production of the same item (and that tends to happen as well) and the price drops. If you aren't in it in the first wave, those 3x prices can drop quickly once everyone has said item. The only thing that may retain their price are consumables.

 

The other difference between this game and inflation in the real world? The corporation making the item doesn't care if you buy at that price. If you don't someone else will. They can write off their losses on their taxes. People in this game want to make a sale. They will cut prices if it means doing so.

 

Do you actually read anything or just post?

 

They wen't the mint. They were a 16 year old kid making minimum wage and sense to use a bank. Seems pretty impressive to all his buddies with no job and a $50 a week "spice" habit, (and all the crafters reverse engineering their items is pretty much like that) but ti's far from impressive when you have to pay Big Boy bills.

 

Lemme know what you think of making 20k a day when you hit level 30, much less 50.

Edited December 30, 2011 by LeperJack

[OdonKnight]

I want to say this one thing about slicing i dont care wether you think the nerf was good or bad i tell you one thing though you will see more credit farmers / sellers now i didnt technically agree witht the amount slicing give players it was easy money but i hoped it would seriouslly reduce the obove mentioned scum. Now it will end up like many other MMO's constant credit spam in chat whispers from level 1 chars all the time. I say make it easier to earn credits the more easier the better get rid of the scum that sell and spam all the time.

 

Lets play a little game called application of logic. How would gold sellers make the money to sell?

 

A)Having the ability to click a few buttons for a relatively low level character to send off companions that results in a profit is an open invitation to massive gold farmers/bot farming for credits which will then make economic problems of increased cash availability worse. The more money there is of a currency the less it is worth.

 

BW absolutely has to remove the ability to click a few buttons and print money. They just had to. Are further tweaks necessary - absolutely. The virtual economy is still just getting started.

 

B) Time consuming gathering of mats, then crafting from mats, then crossing fingers on AH?

 

C) Money earned by leveling (ummm no - as they'll need that money to continue to level in harder places..until 50 - even then what is the amount/hour made?

 

Especially as A is far easier to automate/bot/do remotely than b or c.

[The_Archon]

You've left out the fact that the economy in question has established static credit sinks. In this case, very hefty sinks. Inflation will come regardless, the economy will mature b/c players will hit lvl 50 and earn more per/cycle of established static income (mobs, quests, etc.). 500 credits today will not be worth 500 credits 3 months from now. It will be worth way less 1 year from now. This is regardless of early game inflation.

 

Then you don't mind having all the crew skills in the same league and balanced out. Right?

[nexalacer]

The nerf was terrible... you people who are saying "nerf slicing, I have 2 gathering skills and wasn't making as much as slicers with one" cut your own throat.

 

The money the slicers were putting into the economy BUYING STUFF FROM NON SLICERS is now gone. Did your servers AH just die, or the prices you were getting plummet?

 

Guess why. If they haven't yet, they will.

 

Z

 

ZNICK of the Federal Reserve Bank School of Economics: those who get the money first support massive influxes of currency into an economy!

[Msbungle]

They were a 16 year old kid making minimum wage and sense to use a bank. Seems pretty impressive to all his buddies with no job and a $50 a week "spice" habit, (and all the crafters reverse engineering their items is pretty much like that) but ti's far from impressive when you have to pay Big Boy bills.

 

 

So this is your life story?

 

I think you replied to the wrong person because I didn't even reply to one of your posts. Not once.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Msbungle

[orenoramu]

Except that credits aren't money.

 

 

Yes, they serve as currency, but they do not function solely as currency.

 

Credits can be given directly in exchange for goods or services. (Yes, they are money in this sense! that's why i put this here.)

 

Credits also Directly create raw materials, modify raw materials into unfinished and finished products. In this way they function like man-hours. I'd assume someone with 20 years experience in marketing applications would have picked up on this incredibly basal and easy to note difference between "money" and "credits" from the start.

 

I can't throw $50 out the window and have it fetch a stack of lumber, or build a dining room table, or fix my car. But I can do exactly that with credits, at any time.

 

Slicing provides "money" but it also provides "labor" needed to create the goods to get an economy going. If I cannot afford to train skills and repair equipment, can I afford to run the missions that return the materials that cannot be harvested any other way? No, I cannot.

 

In short, sir, I call shenanigans on your claim of any sort of economic learning beyond perhaps looking up the word "inflation" in a dictionary.

 

 

While you do seem to have a wealth of knowledge, all that credibility goes out the window when you decide to dispute someone else's education.

 

You make it seem like Slicing is the only way to "pay" for skills/repair equipment. There are other ways to earn that, and the nerf, imo, only slowed down what was a rapid pace of economic growth that appeared to be attributed to how quickly people were attaining credits through a source like slicing.

 

I do understand your point about credits being more than just currency, and I agree. But the fact is if one individual is making more credits faster than the next guy, doesn't that create a disparity that would be negative for a young economy such as this?

 

Regardless, you can refute my point as much as you'd like and question my education as much as you'd like, but I came to state my opinion and that's all.

[Drakezor]

That's great. How many nodes did you gather out in the world?

 

Want to know how much money the other gathering professions get from mere missions?

 

If I wanted to run around the world and gather, I would play WoW. BioWare promised this game would be different.

[orenoramu]

The problem is that this is not the same type of economy. Not exactly. You will always have people like myself willing to undercut. I know the big sellers may buy my items and repost them though.

 

And even in our world economy there are those willing to undercut (ever hear of Wal-mart). All it takes are a few people to either undercut or massive production of the same item (and that tends to happen as well) and the price drops. If you aren't in it in the first wave, those 3x prices can drop quickly once everyone has said item. The only thing that may retain their price are consumables.

 

The other difference between this game and inflation in the real world? The corporation making the item doesn't care if you buy at that price. If you don't someone else will. They can write off their losses on their taxes. People in this game want to make a sale. They will cut prices if it means doing so.

 

 

Good point about undercutting, I didn't state that in my previous post.

 

Definitely there will be undercutters, but they would only undercut to a certain amount, basically a floor for the pricing. Even after the nerf though, the floor probably wouldn't change much. The ceiling however for said item would drop dramatically to reflect the adjustment.

 

Once prices adjust, those that couldn't buy said item before based on previously inflated prices may now be able to afford, and as such there's still growth in the economy as money is still being exchanged, and now via more hands.

[G_Vega]

Did Slicers have the ability to pick up nodes in the world taken away? Those things still hold cash don't they? I see people talking about how much they are losing doing slicing missions. I laugh. I lose money on all crew missions as an Armormech, and with Artifice. The stuff you pick up using those skill also fill your bag with junk that you have to unload or break down. There is no limit on how many credits you can carry that I can tell.

 

I'm just upset that I didn't take it before the nerf so that I could be complaining too, instead of being stuck on Alderaan without enough credits to take a cab because my crew blew all my credits on items that the market has in abundance.