uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 (edited) I just discovered how they originally planned to make tech classes force sensitive and even have them build lightsabers in Chapter 12 of KOTFE, saw the deleted conversations on TorCommunity, I think it woulda been a pretty decent idea to have stuck with, honestly the fight cutscenes with tech classes vs Arcann/Vaylin etc always feel so wonky, woulda been cool to be able to convert to a Force user once you have reached that stage of the story so it could make slightly more sense how you are standing against such a powerful force user while blind to it, cos as we know in pretty much all other SW canon and the EU the lowliest of force users can easily destroy the most skilled blaster user without much fuss. Cad Bane is the only blaster user I can remember doing well in a fight vs Jedi in the Canon, but he never really comes close to killing any Jedi in a straight fight unassisted. That we get shown at least I'm sure they probably didn't do it in the end cos they didn't wanna force a class change on people, I get that, the whining on the forums would have been monumental, but it woulda been cool to at least have the option to train with Satele and become force sensitive through your Valk connection and stuff. Cool plot development. Like when you convert from your original class to a Jedi in KOTOR 1. Game mechanics probably prevented them from adding it as an option at the time too. Like look at the trouble they're having getting combat styles to work now and that's the same idea I guess. Edited January 11, 2022 by uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 I think the only way it would have been better is if they stuck to the original plan for KOTET & whatever the third expansion would have been called. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu Posted January 11, 2022 Author Share Posted January 11, 2022 (edited) I think the only way it would have been better is if they stuck to the original plan for KOTET & whatever the third expansion would have been called. Longer doesn't always equal better, but alright. To me Zakuul has always just been a less interesting Sith Empire. I don't see how a third expansion was gonna change that. They harp on in KOTFE about how different Zakuulan force users are, but I don't see it. Arcann and Vaylin are pretty typical darkside Emperor/Empress characters, and the Knights make the Zakuul Empire less interesting than the Sith Empire because as we are told they get their power through blind obedience... That's hardly interesting. It just makes them Sith without the egotism and betrayals and power plays. And they sure talk a lot about how Zakuul isn't "dark" or "light" like the Sith Empire or Jedi Order, but they don't show us much of that difference. Vague recollections about a "kind" Valkorion from Senya is the height of the nicety we see in Zakuul, other than that they are standard darkside characters in their choices. Would fit like a glove in the Sith Empire. I think they shoulda spent more time in KOTFE's original 16 chapters making Zakuul a little more distinct than they did. I doubt that was ever on the agenda for the cancelled expansion or the original vision of KOTET. Zakuul was already introduced and explored by then This turned into quite a rant Can't help it lol, I'm doing Chapter 12 atm and all this dark of how different Zakuulans are is getting to me hadda vent somewhere Edited January 11, 2022 by uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snordoc Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 (edited) Making all tech characters arbitrarily force sensitive for the sake of making KOTFE/ET more relevant to them would have been the worst decision ever taken by the devs, imo. Firstly, because force sensitivity is not supposed to be that common in the universe, hence it wouldn't make sense that all tech toons be or become force sensitive. Secondly, for obvious RP reasons. It is already very difficult to admit that your scoundrel could defeat Valkorion and his whole family and become the emperor of Zakuul. It would be even more RP-killing getting suddenly acquainted with the Force when you've lived 30+ years without feeling the slightest sign of force sensitivity. I definitely wouldn't want any of my tech toons being forced into force-sentivity. The original sin was creating a single story arc for both force and tech toons. An alternative arc should have been developed for tech users. For instance, one in which Darth Marr doesn't die and plays the leading role in the force-related aspects of the story and in the fights against Arcann/Vaylin/Valkorion. He could even die at the end of the last fight, eventually allowing our tech toon to sit on the eternal throne. Edited January 11, 2022 by snordoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pietrastor Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 (edited) No, they should've just had Visions in the Dark chapter have alternate lines for tech-classes and Satele/Marr teaching Agents/Troopers how to shield themselves from and resist the Force(-users) like many other non-Force sensitive characters in Star Wars history achieved. Problem solved This game required some supension of disbelief of Smugglers fighting and WINNING against Sith Lords right from Day 1, KOTFEET aint really different in that regard. If it went even more overboard with it, than a simple "resist the force" alternate subplot would've been enough and interesting in itself Edited January 11, 2022 by Pietrastor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendaric Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 Hell no, if they had made my smuggler/bounty hunter/trooper or agents suddenly force-sensitive, I'd hate KotFE/ET even more than I do anyway. When I want a force-user as a character, I'll create a Jedi/Sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu Posted January 11, 2022 Author Share Posted January 11, 2022 (edited) Making all tech characters arbitrarily force sensitive for the sake of making KOTFE/ET more relevant to them would have been the worst decision ever taken by the devs, imo. Firstly, because force sensitivity is not supposed to be that common in the universe, hence it wouldn't make sense that all tech toons be or become force sensitive. Secondly, for obvious RP reasons. It is already very difficult to admit that your scoundrel could defeat Valkorion and his whole family and become the emperor of Zakuul. It would be even more RP-killing getting suddenly acquainted with the Force when you've lived 30+ years without feeling the slightest sign of force sensitivity. I definitely wouldn't want any of my tech toons being forced into force-sentivity. The original sin was creating a single story arc for both force and tech toons. An alternative arc should have been developed for tech users. For instance, one in which Darth Marr doesn't die and plays the leading role in the force-related aspects of the story and in the fights against Arcann/Vaylin/Valkorion. He could even die at the end of the last fight, eventually allowing our tech toon to sit on the eternal throne. In the dialogues the sudden appearance of sensitivity is explained away via Valkorions influence. Not the best explanation, but I'd take it over my blaster user beating force users. And we do see force sensitivity appearing in later life in Canon and EU stories. I'd point to Rey in the sequels for one (Yes, terrible movies, but still canon, and she doesn't learn a thing until adulthood). So really it'd be like we were always force sensitive, we just weren't trained. We never went to Korriban or Tython. So our sensitivity has laid dormant and presented more as luck than affinity Edited January 11, 2022 by uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu Posted January 11, 2022 Author Share Posted January 11, 2022 (edited) Hell no, if they had made my smuggler/bounty hunter/trooper or agents suddenly force-sensitive, I'd hate KotFE/ET even more than I do anyway. When I want a force-user as a character, I'll create a Jedi/Sith. Why you acting like I said it'd force you to accept training? I said it would've been a fun option to have for some characters. Late life force sensitives, rather than fully Tython/Korriban trained since they were a greenhorn like the original force classes are. I wonder now that they're adding combat styles maybe they might add an option to train tech characters in the force in the future story sometime, and allow the adoption of a Force combat style if you choose to do the training. Again, if you CHOOSE to. Edited January 11, 2022 by uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedia Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 They already did. It's called head canon. Doing anything else wouldn't be good, in my opinion. Not everything has to be spelled out for our characters. "Show, don't tell" is the basis of good story design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floplag Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 No Not everyone wants to be a jedi or sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu Posted January 11, 2022 Author Share Posted January 11, 2022 No Not everyone wants to be a jedi or sith. *SIGH*.... Again... CHOICE. Not obligation. CHOICE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu Posted January 11, 2022 Author Share Posted January 11, 2022 (edited) They already did. It's called head canon. Doing anything else wouldn't be good, in my opinion. Not everything has to be spelled out for our characters. "Show, don't tell" is the basis of good story design. I meant in the sense of being able to choose a force combat style if you chose to explore training with Satele or Marr or whoever in the future, not just the vague notion that you are so tough and lucky due to latent force sensitivity. With combat styles on the way, the infrastructure to allow combat changes inside classes will be there, so all we would need is the story opportunity to become trained (Gnost-Dural could offer for Pubs and Lana or perhaps Rivix or whoever is Empress/Emperor for Imps) and then let trained techies use a force combat style as their secondary one. And I'l say it once more since pretty much everyone is missing it. It'd be an OPTION. Not a forced obligation. You could refuse and crap on the idea of training and make fun of the silly force users in your typical tech class style if you didn't wanna do it. Obviously. I'd never argue against more choice and flexibility, personally. Edited January 11, 2022 by uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 Making all tech characters arbitrarily force sensitive for the sake of making KOTFE/ET more relevant to them would have been the worst decision ever taken by the devs, imo. Firstly, because force sensitivity is not supposed to be that common in the universe, hence it wouldn't make sense that all tech toons be or become force sensitive. Secondly, for obvious RP reasons. It is already very difficult to admit that your scoundrel could defeat Valkorion and his whole family and become the emperor of Zakuul. It would be even more RP-killing getting suddenly acquainted with the Force when you've lived 30+ years without feeling the slightest sign of force sensitivity. I definitely wouldn't want any of my tech toons being forced into force-sentivity. The original sin was creating a single story arc for both force and tech toons. An alternative arc should have been developed for tech users. For instance, one in which Darth Marr doesn't die and plays the leading role in the force-related aspects of the story and in the fights against Arcann/Vaylin/Valkorion. He could even die at the end of the last fight, eventually allowing our tech toon to sit on the eternal throne. Actually. It would make sense for the tech classes to be force sensitive. Being force sensitive may not be common, but that's just making FOUR people force sensitive. It's not making every tech user force sensitive. You're answering as if it counts for all players. Which, story wise, it wouldn't. In fact, story wise, if it all converged into one story, as the story did, then even then it's just a possibility of one of the tech users being found out to be force sensitive. By how the story goes the way it's going, we can only assume that 8 classes started, then seven of them disappeared. What history doesn't know, is which of those 8 heroes became the Alliance Commander. Unless we go a whole multiverse angle But still, story wise, it's not 1 million smuggler suddenly became force sensitive. It's one smuggler discovered they were force sensitive. It would just so happen, the PC is that smuggler. What I want to know is, why couldn't they drop down to four or two stories. Either one tech and one force class per side (so four stories) or one Republic story and one Empire story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 No Not everyone wants to be a jedi or sith. Force sensitive and using a lightsaber does not make on Jedi or Sith. All Jedi and Sith are force sensitives. Not all force sensitives are Jedi or Sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendaric Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 Why you acting like I said it'd force you to accept training? I said it would've been a fun option to have for some characters. Late life force sensitives, rather than fully Tython/Korriban trained since they were a greenhorn like the original force classes are. I wonder now that they're adding combat styles maybe they might add an option to train tech characters in the force in the future story sometime, and allow the adoption of a Force combat style if you choose to do the training. Again, if you CHOOSE to. By having Force-sensitivity being given through the story, you'd not be giving a player options because it wouldn't be a choice. If they choose to go down that route, it would have to be a choice made at character creation or part of an optional quest but not as a fixed part of a story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveTheCynic Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 *SIGH*.... Again... CHOICE. Not obligation. CHOICE. Thread title: "Do you think KOTFE/ET woulda been better if they'd made all toons force sensitive?" Doesn't sound like an option to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicalSwordsman Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 No, because it would destroy the immersion and any originality that Star Wars had. Oh wait, SWTOR already did that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snordoc Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 Actually. It would make sense for the tech classes to be force sensitive. Being force sensitive may not be common, but that's just making FOUR people force sensitive. It's not making every tech user force sensitive. You're answering as if it counts for all players. Which, story wise, it wouldn't. In fact, story wise, if it all converged into one story, as the story did, then even then it's just a possibility of one of the tech users being found out to be force sensitive. By how the story goes the way it's going, we can only assume that 8 classes started, then seven of them disappeared. What history doesn't know, is which of those 8 heroes became the Alliance Commander. Unless we go a whole multiverse angle But still, story wise, it's not 1 million smuggler suddenly became force sensitive. It's one smuggler discovered they were force sensitive. It would just so happen, the PC is that smuggler. What I want to know is, why couldn't they drop down to four or two stories. Either one tech and one force class per side (so four stories) or one Republic story and one Empire story. I agree that story wise only one hero becomes the Alliance Commander and would be concerned by this Force-sensitivity issue. Yet, from a player perspective, it would mean all my tech toons would become Force sensitive, which still feels kinda wrong to me. I do consider what happens post class-story as a kind of uchronia (call it multiverse if you want ), and it's just weird that all my toons would share this particularity of being unknowingly Force sensitive. That Bioware didn't realize (or overlooked) the fact that KOTFE/ET would only fit Force users, and didn't develop an alternate story or at least some dedicated story elements for non Force users, baffles me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pricia Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 I personally always found that it worked fine if you're not force sensitive. The final boss is in your head, so anything goes, the Vaylin fight you have a lot of help for (from at least one force user), the Arcann one, it doesn't matter anyway because you use a shield. Also you have a force-attuned weapon to help anyway. Besides, you can always assume that you get some force sensitivity with a Sith in your head. It's not crazier than a bounty hunter killing a Jedi like in the class stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCDenton Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 It would have fit the overall story of those expansions better, as they were way too Force mysticism focused, but it would have been a disaster for those characters. When your game offers four different flavors of Force using individual, and I deliberately choose something else, coming back 100 hours later to yell "Sike!" and hand me a lightsaber anyways is a pretty ridiculous idea and a huge waste of everyone's time. This is the first I've heard that they were planning this. If it's true, it's to their credit that they had the sense to shoot it down, but it's to their shame that someone even vocalized the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 It would have fit the overall story of those expansions better, as they were way too Force mysticism focused, but it would have been a disaster for those characters. When your game offers four different flavors of Force using individual, and I deliberately choose something else, coming back 100 hours later to yell "Sike!" and hand me a lightsaber anyways is a pretty ridiculous idea and a huge waste of everyone's time. This is the first I've heard that they were planning this. If it's true, it's to their credit that they had the sense to shoot it down, but it's to their shame that someone even vocalized the idea. Shame. No. You go about planning something, you start brainstorming, coming up with ideas that might stick. Maybe run with it awhile then realize...nuuuupe, bnad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 I agree that story wise only one hero becomes the Alliance Commander and would be concerned by this Force-sensitivity issue. Yet, from a player perspective, it would mean all my tech toons would become Force sensitive, which still feels kinda wrong to me. I do consider what happens post class-story as a kind of uchronia (call it multiverse if you want ), and it's just weird that all my toons would share this particularity of being unknowingly Force sensitive. That Bioware didn't realize (or overlooked) the fact that KOTFE/ET would only fit Force users, and didn't develop an alternate story or at least some dedicated story elements for non Force users, baffles me. Well, yeah, I did say it would all be in the players head. From a masses RPing together perspective however, it's not like they're fully following the story, so it's not like we have to worry about that group. For the storyline role players, yes, they have to try and get it out of their head. And I do agree, it would've been a bad idea to do it. I was just mentioning it didn't make every person in the galaxy force sensitive, so the story could've worked, even if it would've been a bad idea. Though, I would've liked my Smuggler being Force Sensitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu Posted January 11, 2022 Author Share Posted January 11, 2022 (edited) Thread title: "Do you think KOTFE/ET woulda been better if they'd made all toons force sensitive?" Doesn't sound like an option to me. Living up to your name I see.. You realise there's a post below that title right? You can only say so much in one sentence. I mentioned it as an OPTION in my OP. But yeah, you just wanna be contrary with me. Edited January 11, 2022 by uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu Posted January 11, 2022 Author Share Posted January 11, 2022 Well, yeah, I did say it would all be in the players head. From a masses RPing together perspective however, it's not like they're fully following the story, so it's not like we have to worry about that group. For the storyline role players, yes, they have to try and get it out of their head. And I do agree, it would've been a bad idea to do it. I was just mentioning it didn't make every person in the galaxy force sensitive, so the story could've worked, even if it would've been a bad idea. Though, I would've liked my Smuggler being Force Sensitive. I MADE this post and even I'm not 100% sure I'd love the idea if it happened honestly, with how this game can't really handle choice in the story and whatnot. If it was 100% an optional flavour you could add to your story, I'd like it, because I don't have to do it on every toon, so it'd be a fun extra mission for those who wanted it. But I suspect other posters are quite right when they say it could end up not being a true choice at all if they went this route. The story would likely begin to assume everyone took the option because it can't handle branching like that. And yeah, that's not worth it in the end. I really just wanted to see what the community thought about it since I'd only discovered the lines of dialogue about that last night and was curious But it probably woulda been dumb, literally one of the last lines of Chapter 12 was gonna be "Oh, and I'm force sensitive now." So it doesn't seem like they woulda handled the story with much finesse anyways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hadsil Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 If they couldn't do 8 class stories they could have/should have done two, one for Force Users and one for Tech Users. Since the idea of the story was the Republic and Empire individuals forming an alliance, it would be plausible for Jedi Warrior and Sith Sorcerer to have the same story while Trooper and Agent share their version. If they must Valkorian can possess either, but the Force Users fight Arcann and Vaylin directly and the Tech User fight indirectly. For example, only the Tech users get to do the Heist. Tech Users fight with the Mandalorians. The Tech Users do the mission Kaliyo and Aric fail, and just when you're about to succeed and gain control of the Eternal Fleet that's when Scorpio does her betrayal. Divide up the Force and Tech Chapters and add more to fill in. To defeat the Eternal Throne and thus Arcann and Vaylin, the penultimate for the Tech User is convincing the People of Zakuul to revolt and lead the Revolution. Everyone can do the mindscape finale to deal with Valkorian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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