DPS Still Use Battle Rez Abilities in Vet and MM FPs/Uprisings, Solo PVE Content

[arunav]

In a recent developer post, it states dps specs that currently have a battle rez ability are losing it, with only healing specs keeping these abilities in 7.0.

 

There is a problem with this approach: FPs, Uprisings, and solo PVE content.

 

In Vet FPs/Uprisings, group composition is often 4 dps. Dps with a heal spec option currently do some off-heals in these groups, and partially function as the healer. If a group member dies during a boss fight, it's common enough that a battle rez ability is used that taking it away in 7.0 is problematic. This applies principally to the more difficult Vet FPs/Uprisings, but can also occur in simpler, older FPs when a group member is new to the game or hasn't done the FP before.

 

This also applies to MM FPs, since sometimes a healer can die to a mechanic and the rest of the group is still alive. In such circumstances, a dps can and does often revive the healer, allowing a fight to continue.

 

Especially with the game approaching its 10th anniversary, folks don't enjoy wiping in years' old FP or Uprising content. Newer players might prefer getting revived and having the opportunity to learn a fight better than simply watching the rest of a group finish or being blamed (fairly or not) for a wipe.

 

In solo PVE content, sometimes a companion will die, but can be revived while still in combat. This might occur in chapter content or during a solo FP.

 

It seems like taking the battle rez abilities away from dps specs is principally intended for Operations. I wanted to highlight that these abilities are used outside of this context, though, in hopes that the team might reconsider how the change will be implemented in 7.0.

 

With all the cuts to defensive abilities generally, it may be the case that folks will be dying more often in many content types. Limiting battle rez to healers, when dps specs have also had this ability for almost 10 years, will likely make gameplay less enjoyable.

Edited October 29, 2021 by arunav

[LD_Little_Dragon]

not just that, DPS still use battle rez in operations, not often, but it's useful to have.

 

Bioware keeps doing the 'announce a nice cosmetic change' and then hit you with major gameplay changes.

 

Weapons in outfitter? Fantastic, now what else is planned ... WT actual F?

 

No more weeklies rolling over. Forget taking your own time to finish things.

 

No more combat rez on dps. Which is useful and saves plenty of teams from a wipe. This will hurt pugs a lot since groups will be less tolerant of newer/less skilled players even in veteran fp since mistakes will hurt a lot more.

 

No more stealth rez, which was a pretty niche ability, but still fun to pull off once in a while.

 

No more stealth removing you from combat, so no more medpack reset which is a nerf to all stealth specs survivability.

 

I don't get the reasoning behind the latest gameplay changes at all. Almost 10 years of combat stealth taking you out of combat, and dps having combat rezzes, and it's just now a problem? I don't buy it.

 

The cosmetic changes coming with 7.0 look fun. The gameplay changes do not. It just won't be the same game.

[xKurisaki]

not just that, DPS still use battle rez in operations, not often, but it's useful to have.

 

Bioware keeps doing the 'announce a nice cosmetic change' and then hit you with major gameplay changes.

 

Weapons in outfitter? Fantastic, now what else is planned ... WT actual F?

 

No more weeklies rolling over. Forget taking your own time to finish things.

 

No more combat rez on dps. Which is useful and saves plenty of teams from a wipe. This will hurt pugs a lot since groups will be less tolerant of newer/less skilled players even in veteran fp since mistakes will hurt a lot more.

 

No more stealth rez, which was a pretty niche ability, but still fun to pull off once in a while.

 

No more stealth removing you from combat, so no more medpack reset which is a nerf to all stealth specs survivability.

 

I don't get the reasoning behind the latest gameplay changes at all. Almost 10 years of combat stealth taking you out of combat, and dps having combat rezzes, and it's just now a problem? I don't buy it.

 

The cosmetic changes coming with 7.0 look fun. The gameplay changes do not. It just won't be the same game.

 

 

Regarding Vanish, does no one really understand stealthing out to drop out of combat was unintended?

I still fail to see how it’s a survivability nerf when no one has yet seen the applications of these nerfs in actual content. Everyone is making it seem like it’s the end of the game because “Oh no! We have no stealth to cheese ONE mechanic” or “Oh no! Three people are dead and we can’t stealth rez anymore”.

 

The game as it is allows you to carry people performing very poorly in legacy NiM. More so because of Nightmare Crystals. If people play SWTOR for solo content, I’m sorry but it’s better to play an RPG game than an MMO.

 

If people are complaining about this vanish change because they rely on it heavily, and let me use the Stealth Rez example, if you need to pull off a stealth rez after a healer rez, wouldn’t that mean people didn’t fully understand the mechanics and that they needed to not mess up the next time? It’s a group progression for a reason.

[Opiklo]

Regarding Vanish, does no one really understand stealthing out to drop out of combat was unintended?

I still fail to see how it’s a survivability nerf when no one has yet seen the applications of these nerfs in actual content. Everyone is making it seem like it’s the end of the game because “Oh no! We have no stealth to cheese ONE mechanic” or “Oh no! Three people are dead and we can’t stealth rez anymore”.

 

The game as it is allows you to carry people performing very poorly in legacy NiM. More so because of Nightmare Crystals. If people play SWTOR for solo content, I’m sorry but it’s better to play an RPG game than an MMO.

 

If people are complaining about this vanish change because they rely on it heavily, and let me use the Stealth Rez example, if you need to pull off a stealth rez after a healer rez, wouldn’t that mean people didn’t fully understand the mechanics and that they needed to not mess up the next time? It’s a group progression for a reason.

 

i bet you have never seen a mm operation past the first boss.

[LD_Little_Dragon]

Regarding Vanish, does no one really understand stealthing out to drop out of combat was unintended?

 

Unintended for 10 years? That's just a wee bit unbelievable. Why does combat stealth still take you out of combat in PvP and open-world solo play if it was 'unintended'?

 

If it was JUST that one change, maybe, but they're coupling it with removing or limiting dcds, mobility, threat drops, crowd control, altering gearing (again), and now taking away dps combat revive.

 

Are you going to claim that dps having combat revive was unintended as well?

 

Off-tank specs are being left with taunt and guard, so why the major nerf to off-heal specs?

 

It will not be the same game with all the changes being made. Bioware is changing too much for it all to go LIVE without major hiccups. I don't know what Bioware's actual end result plans are and it feels like with 7.0 Swtor will change from a complete game with occasional new content, to a BETA stage game.

[xKurisaki]

i bet you have never seen a mm operation past the first boss.

 

Such a classic comeback. Do you really need to use Vanish to successfully clear the content LOL. Finding an alternative solution too hard for you? Such a competent NiM Raider /s.

Once again, if you need to heavily rely on stealth to cheese mechanics you have bigger issues.

 

Unintended for 10 years? That's just a wee bit unbelievable. Why does combat stealth still take you out of combat in PvP and open-world solo play if it was 'unintended'?

 

If it was JUST that one change, maybe, but they're coupling it with removing or limiting dcds, mobility, threat drops, crowd control, altering gearing (again), and now taking away dps combat revive.

 

Are you going to claim that dps having combat revive was unintended as well?

 

Off-tank specs are being left with taunt and guard, so why the major nerf to off-heal specs?

 

It will not be the same game with all the changes being made. Bioware is changing too much for it all to go LIVE without major hiccups. I don't know what Bioware's actual end result plans are and it feels like with 7.0 Swtor will change from a complete game with occasional new content, to a BETA stage game.

 

The devs have been aware of this for YEARS. Why they haven't addressed it early on is beyond me.

https://www.swtor.com/community/archive/index.php/t-122546.html From the old forums where DPS with Rez capabilities had 15min CD.

 

Just imagine this though, a game designer designs a boss fight mechanic only to be able to cheese it via Vanish.

Also, aren't they making it so that both healers are able to use Revive? You now have two revives available making Stealth Rez irrelevant. If it's for a stylish preference, that's a fair argument I guess.

 

In PvP you're never truly out of combat as you're fighting other players. There's a CHANCE you'll be hunted and never have the opportunity to fully heal. If you do manage to heal (and this is in a 1vX siituation) you also give them the opportunity to heal. Also in PvP there's no mechanics aside from the expectation of not dying.

 

Your comparing apples to oranges when you say

Off-tank specs are being left with taunt and guard, so why the major nerf to off-heal specs?

 

For one, Assassin can also Stealth Rez and it cannot spec into heals. Only Operatives are capable of that.

Two, Taunts and Guard do not break intended game mechanics.

Three, Off Tank Specs did get nerfed by nerfing the damage they dealt while they were guarding another person. This was in the 6.x era. People complained about it like how they are right now about stealth rez (primarily for pvp reasons) how did it turn out? It turned out FINE. People were still able to offguard like normal.

 

I guess I can understand that the amount of changes happening is too sudden given that the game itself rarely ever releases big changes like these so people just grow complacent and stick to what they currently know or have. Unlike WoW where the meta is constantly evolving.

 

altering gearing (again)

Literally most MMO does this. WoW is notorious for it. SWTOR have done this (5.0 to 6.0 to 7.0; Command -> Renown -> Legendaries). The only reason why people are complaining about it is because once again, SWTOR doesn't push out enough content consistently enough for players (especially newer players) to adapt accordingly.

[AdjeYo]

The biggest problem with battle rez is probably vet flashpoints, since they almost never have a healer. But tbh the problem there is more that group finder does not enforce the healer role on vet flashpoints. Just have vet flashpoints require at least one healer. A tank is not needed for them, but a healer should be a gf necessity. That way you also get a combat rez.

 

The reason dps specs are losing combat rez is because there won't be a group wide lockout anymore. If dps would keep battle rez an operations group of 8 people could have up to 6(!) vombat rezzes within 5 minutes. That's too many. I welcome the change though. With 2 battle rezzes it becomes more lenient, but you can no longer have 4 person chain stealth rezzes.

[xKurisaki]

The biggest problem with battle rez is probably vet flashpoints, since they almost never have a healer. But tbh the problem there is more that group finder does not enforce the healer role on vet flashpoints. Just have vet flashpoints require at least one healer. A tank is not needed for them, but a healer should be a gf necessity. That way you also get a combat rez.

 

The reason dps specs are losing combat rez is because there won't be a group wide lockout anymore. If dps would keep battle rez an operations group of 8 people could have up to 6(!) vombat rezzes within 5 minutes. That's too many. I welcome the change though. With 2 battle rezzes it becomes more lenient, but you can no longer have 4 person chain stealth rezzes.

 

I think the issue with Group Finder goes beyond than composition, it’s the population size unfortunately.

 

I wouldn’t mind DPS with rez capabilities (Operatives, Mercs, Sorcs) keeping their rez abilities if I guess they kept the in combat system as is (instead of 1 rez per 5 minutes, its 2 per 5 minutes for each one being used) that could be a better alternative.

I think in Operations, at least for an organized group, people expect the healers to do the rez’s so this won’t necessarily be that much of a big deal.

[AdjeYo]

I think the issue with Group Finder goes beyond than composition, it’s the population size unfortunately.

I don't know, if I queue for a mm flashpoint as a tank, I almost always get instapops. It seems there are plenty of DPS and Healers in queue, just very few tanks. It would probably be possible to enforce 1 healer per vet flashpoint group, and it would be better anyway. Some vet flashpoints just aren't designed to be done with 4 dps, especially levelling dps. The couple of kolto stations they slapped on each boss doesn't fix the trash pack pulling with 4 dps below level 30.

[Baletraeger]

The vanish nerf and battle rez nerf are the devs punishing player agency and emergent gameplay.

 

This is terrible game design decision based on dev hubris, period.

[Loc_n_lol]

I don't know, if I queue for a mm flashpoint as a tank, I almost always get instapops. It seems there are plenty of DPS and Healers in queue, just very few tanks. It would probably be possible to enforce 1 healer per vet flashpoint group, and it would be better anyway. Some vet flashpoints just aren't designed to be done with 4 dps, especially levelling dps. The couple of kolto stations they slapped on each boss doesn't fix the trash pack pulling with 4 dps below level 30.

 

So I've thought about this before, I think this might be the occasion to address multiple problems at once. Here's my idea :

 

Remove kolto stations from veteran flashpoints. Instead, give every player a temporary bar ability that heals all group members, with a minute-long cooldown or so. Likewise, you can also give every player a combat rez temp ability. For healers and tanks you could replace the heal with a group-wide dps buff instead, or you could give that to everyone as well.

 

Either way, the idea is to make sure the entire flashpoint is really group-comp-neutral, not just the bosses. And it's just using tech that's already in the game, but wasn't when "tactical flashpoints" were introduced.

 

But failing that I wouldn't mind enforcing 1 healer/3 whatever for group finder, it's also a good idea.

[LD_Little_Dragon]

 

But failing that I wouldn't mind enforcing 1 healer/3 whatever for group finder, it's also a good idea.

 

Except that healing in vet flashpoints is a horrible experience right now on LIVE even with a near maxed healer. No tank and just dps/heal means that the healer will most likely end up with most of the mob aggro. You have to heal yourself and also dps down the weak mobs youself since most pug dps are clueless about proper kill order and all jump on the elites and ignore the weak adds.

 

Dps/heal vet fp will be even worse in 7.0 since healers are losing a lot of their defenses and survivablitiy.

 

Then there is a huge difference between the capabilities of a max level heal, and a lower level. Are vet flashpoints going to continue to be available to lower levels?

 

All this adds up to: either make all 3 roles needed for vet flashpoints, or keep them role-neutral.

[Lakemine]

Except that healing in vet flashpoints is a horrible experience right now on LIVE even with a near maxed healer. No tank and just dps/heal means that the healer will most likely end up with most of the mob aggro. You have to heal yourself and also dps down the weak mobs youself since most pug dps are clueless about proper kill order and all jump on the elites and ignore the weak adds.

 

Dps/heal vet fp will be even worse in 7.0 since healers are losing a lot of their defenses and survivablitiy.

 

Then there is a huge difference between the capabilities of a max level heal, and a lower level. Are vet flashpoints going to continue to be available to lower levels?

 

All this adds up to: either make all 3 roles needed for vet flashpoints, or keep them role-neutral.

 

And remember they are all being leveled up to lv80

 

Its why i'm running them none stop atm to get 100% on FPs. Because once 7.0, they will be uncompletable but for a premade.

[demotivator]

No more stealth removing you from combat, so no more medpack reset which is a nerf to all stealth specs survivability.

 

You only need to run the new flashpoint to see how bad this change is. Believe me, you will remain in combat with mobs under the map, you will /stuck in combat, die and respawn under the map then struggle to get back to ground level.

 

Stealthers offer a workaround with this kind of issues, people /stuck, stealthers stealth and rez people. Problem solved. Now: nothing.