Juggernaut Feedback Thread

[velvet_illusionZ]

if the devs remove dcds-thats fine by me, but do it fair and balanced, not hitting some specs harder than others. if we loose 2 dcds, mercs need to loose 2 as well, no matter what, ops need to loose damage to acompensate for everything else they got, no matter what, etc ppp. how am I supposed to go up against a sniper who can't be force jumped to without blade blitz, when they can constantly slow me while dropping damage on me at the same time + having all their dcds ready when/if I finally made my way to them? btw sniper does more damage than jugg/guardian too- you think thats fair and balanced? they should at least have buffed our remainig dcds to compensate for loosing 2. why do we have a escape with a 35 cd while ops have one everx 6 or 8 seconds thats also making them invincible for 2 gcds? if we spec out of blade blitz cause they force us to, we got nothing while ops still has his godrolls *********** baseline, not 1 but two! merc got 2 escapes baseline as a ranged class with slows and net and more dcds...fair game, I think not!!!! if the devs want to rebalance the game-fine, but do it fair for all classes not just for the classes our "beloved" devs like to play....this patch will be the killing blow to this game if they keep up with the way they intend to do...like I said-if I need to play space james bond to be competitive, I can play others games who do this way better than swtor

[Dyne-]

Alrighty.... So I'm somewhat reluctant to get involved in this discussion but as someone who has been playing the Guardian/Juggernaut since December of 2011 and seeing the current set of changes I have to say that I'm actually a big fan of the changes and I don't really understand the negativity.

 

*snip*

 

 

This reads like a cut and paste of the nonsense that Bioware has been saying since day 1.

 

While they've added a few cool features across most specs (up to level 35) the rotation is unaffected, so it won't be any easier to grasp than it already is.

 

They also aren't creating any new diversity in builds. What they're actually doing is separating PvP choices from PvE. The only real choices anyone is going to make on DPS Jugg in PvP is "Do I want multiple roots, or one root and one slow" followed by "Do I want to be able to chase my enemy, or be stationary and die but at least I have a reflect that only works against certain damage types."

 

They aren't diversifying anything. They're literally limiting answers to certain situations across all classes. The only problem being that limitations are not being applied evenly (Marauder, Juggernaut). If you haven't noticed, every PvP utility that Juggernauts use has been placed in competition either with each other, or with active skills so that we as players cannot have access to all of them.

 

Not being able to understand the negativity tells me that you haven't played the PTS, or you're a solo player that doesn't do any high level content or PvP.

 

There's nothing wrong with that if that's the case, but to have your main class cut to pieces ( I couldn't resist) and not even be able to notice what's missing simply makes you sound inexperienced.

 

Velvet's post comes off as a bit emotional, but he's actually correct about everything he's said.

[velvet_illusionZ]

Yes my post was a bit emotional, and it wasn't ment to offend someone on a personal level. But positive feedback for a none positiv action makes matters worse not better. That goes for all classes and content. I don't want my spec to be op or anything I just want a fair chance/fair fight with equal tools at ones disposal and the devs refuse to achieve this by balancing/triming, the right way, for ages now... I don't veto for classes to get nerfed, but some classes/specs need buffs to get to the same level as the top dogs. can it be so hard, dear devs ,to finally update jugg dcds to be on par with everyone else. And I, like many others, had hopes 7.0 would finally deliver just that, but, guess what- some clueless balancing as usual.

[VainEldritch]

The change in Grit Teeth from lowering CD of Enraged Defence (2 min CD) to lowering CD of Saber Ward (2.5 min CD) feels terrible. It's just yet another change to Juggernaut Immortal playstyle that is a clear step backwards in power, utility AND IS NOT FUN.

 

For the love of The Force, stop this madness!

[velvet_illusionZ]

The change in Grit Teeth from lowering CD of Enraged Defence (2 min CD) to lowering CD of Saber Ward (2.5 min CD) feels terrible. It's just yet another change to Juggernaut Immortal playstyle that is a clear step backwards in power, utility AND IS NOT FUN.

 

For the love of The Force, stop this madness!

 

True-every time we think they can't make it any worse they come up with another dumb decision like this!

if this goes live they can delete the class entirely- no one in their right mind will play that mess and jugg mains like myself will simply quit the game cause I don't have any interest to play "merc-wars-operatives of the old republic"

[Llacertus]

The change in Grit Teeth from lowering CD of Enraged Defence (2 min CD) to lowering CD of Saber Ward (2.5 min CD) feels terrible. It's just yet another change to Juggernaut Immortal playstyle that is a clear step backwards in power, utility AND IS NOT FUN.

 

For the love of The Force, stop this madness!

 

Just because this needs restating. This is by far the most braindead, smooth-brained, backward logic change I've ever seen on the PTS. The fact that this even made it into the PTS proves that the devs have no idea where the class balance is right now. The reduction on enraged defensive through grit teeth is NECESSARY for juggernauts. It should have never been a tactical, it should have built into the kit, just like powertechs and mercs have cooldown reduction on their energy shield and kolto built into their kits. For a class that has arguably the lowest damage potential compared to every other class in the game, its defenses are also probably the weakest compared to every other class.

[velvet_illusionZ]

The devs just keep on giving one brain dead nerf after another to juggs, while the classes which need some trimming down remain unscathered-as usual....nerf freaking ops and mercs and buff juggs- change the meta finally its about time!

but you are 100% right-grit teath should've been baked into the kit-like so many other utilities we are loosing as well.

Its just stupid beyond repair to nerf the most iconic class this game has to offer into the ground every freaking time...

[velvet_illusionZ]

dear bioware-we don#t want to play space james bond-we want to play as vader or luke or palpatine, get that allready-this game is called star wars-KNIGHTS of the old republic, not merc wars-operatives of the old republic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dyne-]

Did a bit more testing. Just going to come through and leave a bit of feedback for the devs.

TL DR = Tier 1 - 60 are pretty good. Needs a little work. Tier 68-78 needs work.

Rage needs CC immunity on leap. Obliterate shield needs a buff. Saber Reflect should be baseline.

 

Let's start on a positive note. The character creator looks dope. Way better than what it used to be. I wasn't able to rotate my character to see the hairstyles and facial changes though. I imagine this will be fixed. The UI is looking much better. Not better than what we currently have in 6.0, but its getting there. The glow that we currently have on abilities in the Proficiencies window would be better suited to the ABC tree than the current outline you're using on selectable abilities in the tree. I have 20/15 vision and its difficult for me to make out. People with bad eyes most likely can't tell what they have selected.

 

Skewering Strike:

I like what you guys are trying to do with this one.

 

If possible I would suggest using the skill Obliterate as an example / template. It has a 10m range, a built in root, and a butter smooth animation. Skewering strike is far too rigid. I'm not sure how else to describe it, but it doesn't move with the same fluidity as the original Impale animation, or any of the current animations like Obliterate.

 

When I use the ability while holding down the right mouse button to spin my camera freely, the ability tries to rip / forcefully redirect my camera and character in a way that no other ability in the game does. It also doesn't flow into the next ability in like our current abilities do. The animation clips. Force Leap, Impale, Shatter, Force Scream is butter smooth. Skewering strike should be as well.

 

Also, I highly recommend making Sundering Assault reduce the cooldown on Skewering Strike to maintain the fluidity of the rotation, or dropping that additional cooldown altogether. Vengeance Jugg has the smoothest rotation in the game. That massive CD increase you guys added to our main DPS ability is atrocious. It turns Vengeance rotation into something like Immortal Jugg, where you have downtime and you have to search for fillers.

 

Remember, you all removed almost all of the things we would normally do during any form of downtime. This hole in rotation will take new players awhile to figure out. More importantly it isn't fun.

 

I can't speak for everyone, but that disruption to the rotation is so bad I might skip choosing the ability all together just to keep the fluidity of my rotation in tact. Not to mention it negatively impacts dot spread since you cant spread 3 dots as frequently.

 

Side note: Overall I like the idea of what you guys are trying to do, but the OG impale animation is one of the best in the game. If you can't outdo it, don't. Just add the root and leap to the original animation and call it a day. Also, the animation has a Jedi feel to it. Notice the way the Juggernaut stands, leaps into battle with Force Leap, the Impale animation, Vengeful Slam animation. They all look a bit more "Sith". At the moment Skewering Strike looks too much like the Jedi Guardian Overhead Slash. A bit angrier and unhinged please Think Darth Malgus Force Leap from the Deceived trailer. Huge leap after he Force Pushes Ven Zallow with a two handed downward stab like Impale. Very brutal, very Sith.

 

Bloodrage:

The portion of this ability that purges movement impairing effects and increases movement speed should be baseline for DPS spec unless you plan on getting rid of all of the baked in slows / roots that ranged classes have at their disposal. Also, in PvE Right now when you're leveling a new character or pvping we're almost perma slowed. This feels terrible.

 

Rage Juggernaut:

Obliterate shield is too weak.

 

Desperately needs CC immunity on leap. It's always been odd to me that Rage doesn't have any form of CC immunity but Fury Marauder has immunity on Force Crush and Saber Ward. Not sure how or why this is a thing, but again this should be changed. I'm not exaggerating when I say i've spent > 50% of PvP matches CC'd because Rage is so incredibly susceptible to CC.

 

This stopped being funny years ago. Please give this class immunity on leap already. Also, I highly recommend it be tied to leap and not an active ability. Our rotation is a bit different than Fury Marauder, so don't tie it to Force Crush.

 

I understand that i'm an absolute mad lad to even bother playing melee dps in SWTOR, but us Rage Jugg players aren't actually masochists. We don't like *not* having CC immunity on leap. I could understand Rage not having immunity on leap if it was doing PT damage, but it isn't doing PT damage.

 

Armor Proficiency

I noticed that my Juggernaut did not have the ability to equip Heavy Armor in the Rage Spec. I'm not sure if it's a bug or you're reworking armor ratings. Either way, Juggs should stay a Heavy Armored class. We already don't have an anti-focus and are permanently movement impaired. We need more innate mitigation not less.

 

Furious Power:

Elated to see this make a return. It's an ability that I love. Might need to be baseline though. Being in the tree depends on how much CC other classes will bring to the table in 7.0. If it's anywhere near what 6.0 is, then we won't really have a choice at this level. We'll be forced to choose the purge attached to Enrage and never select Furious Power. Make this baseline or the purge on Enrage baseline; Or lower the overall amount of CC in the game and rework resolve.

 

Utilities

One of the things you all have been advertising is that we're supposed to be getting greater customization in this expansion. Not being able to choose utilities and being forced to lose some doesn't really add anything positive to the game. If I play DPS Jugg and decide I want to choose Strangulate, Reckoning, or Thrown Gauntlet to better suit my needs that should be my prerogative. I care more about *actually customizing my Juggernaut* than making my Juggernaut an Assassin or a Sorc like FF14. Combat Styles are cool, but they aren't cool enough for me to want my choices taken away.

 

Conclusion:

Overall, Juggernaut is in a better place then when you guys started this. I wouldn't pay money for it, not yet anyway. Understand that I, and i'm sure plently of other players, want to shower you all with positive feedback, but it's hard to do that when you're asking us to pay for a product that is less enjoyable than it was prior to your update.

 

A lot of the changes that you've added to the game are great. Some of them suck, but the class changes are still bad enough that the game may no longer be worth the subscription fee.

 

The removal of Guard, Intimidating Roar, Chilling Scream, and most PvP utilities creates a lot of holes in combat that aren't filled by anything. Times where I would be doing something i'm doing...nothing. This makes the PTS experience less enjoyable than live. It feels terrible. More downtime == Less Fun. Less interaction with the world around me == Less Fun (Guard, Intercede, Intimidating Roar, Chilling Scream).

 

Also, understand that as a Juggernaut nothing in this game is more fun than *being a Juggernaut*. Mad dashing and leaping into battle while reflecting incoming projectile attacks might be the single most fun thing in this entire game. Being able to deflect blaster bolts / rockets is a bare minimum expectation when playing a force user in a Star Wars game. It's a statement that we see every force user of note make in a movie, trailer, cutscene, etc. Even in this game. Not being able to do it is terrible thematically. The equivalent would be removing rocket out and blazing bolts from mercenaries, which would make no sense. (Please don't do that either lol).

 

My recommendation: Saber Reflect back to baseline. Skewering Strike, Mad Dash, Awe for the level 70/73 choice. Or Enure, Mad Dash, Awe for DPS Jugg. I could understand Mad Dash and Saber Reflect being in competition in the same tier if Saber Reflect was the Juggernaut equivalent of Responsive Safeguards, but it isn't. It only works against certain damage types, lasts for 3 to 5 seconds, and doesn't heal us. It does however reward perfect timing, and is the only thing that keeps us in the fight vs PTs, Mercenaries, Snipers.

 

We can't afford to not have it.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Dyne-

[-_Richtus_-]

I thought we need to get to the devs with every way possible, so i will post my statement from the Guardian thread here too:

 

So let's talk about the current state of the DPS Juggernaut in pvp with this expansion. for this I would like to look at the DPS, Survival, CC Imunitys once and as a comparison to the Maro:

 

DPS-Rage: Absolutely weak burst. With the same Gear the Jugg does 35-40k, the Marauder over 111k!!! The Maro has the better multipliers on focused burst and has with Zen an autocrit and generally a higher crit chance. That's 25% more than the Jugg + the buff from the focused burst (concentrated slice buff +15%). The Jugg has one autocrit in the specc, the Maro can have 3-4!!. Additionally, the root break from Mara is on an extra ability that has nothing to do with the core rota (predation), unlike the Jugg where the root break is on a core rotation skill like combat focus (but you have to spec it -.-, should be base). A pretty naive decision. Also Jugg has zero cc (stuns) imunity, maro has 3 to 4!!!! Combat Focus should offer the same modis as Zen (25%crit and multi). Also, combat focus should not consume all the rage at full rage and then it doesn't even do big dmg....

This spec is a single joke compared to maro. This patch was the chance to finally make something meaningful and comparable. Who always wants to play rage should switch to fury - its at least twice as good.

 

Vengeance: Well the only spec we can get some cc (stun) imunity...We have to spec a root break on combat focus again??? why? so many classes get their roots baseline or can spec into it, its a new root meta! all our root breaks should be base! And the speed on combat focus should be obtainable in vengeance too. Why is the new leaping strike so clunky? why has it almost the double cooldown from the overhead slash which it replaces? that kills the rotation and our dps. makes no sense at all. blade burst is no real replacement for upgraded freezing force (360 aoe slow + movement speed) but i get it, you will just ignore our feedback regarding lost abilities...

Overall the spec needs a bit of a dmg increase.

 

Survivability and utilitys:

Well lets be honest here. our survivability in dps specs just sucks. We have no real anti focus def....the closest thing we get is saber reflect and even then its only against force/tech range....our base defs are enure, ed and saber ward. Well the maro has cloak, camo and saber ward. cloack is the best anti focus ability you can get (talking about warrior)...with a cleanse 50% movement speed 50% dmg reduction cc imunity and invis for 6sec on 45sec cd. you even have two uses with the right tactical. And you can get protected by the force another anti focus def (6sec!)! Maro even has the better saber ward. it heals him and makes him cc imune....unbelievable. and he has 30sec of rebuke...20% dmg reduce....jugg has a worse saber ward, enraged defense which heals almost nothing even when it crits... like its scaled not properly since lvl 70. and with the new outrageous bursts its just so so weak on a 2min cd (or 1:30 if specced)... and then we have enure...the worst def in the game and the only double edged def now existing. 30% heal which is lost after 10sec and a cleanse on 1min cd....enure and ed will get reduced from all the pvp heal debuffs, trauma and the staking heal debuff at the end of the match (4vs4) and so on so its even less powerfull then the tooltipp says. You said our few defs should be meaningfull and strong....i hope you are laughing like i am when i look at enure after you said this . it gives you nothing if you are focus, it only puts more pressure on the healer if it is near the end of its uptime - its weak and almost useless. In rage you only get the 30% heal...completely useless. in vengeance you get 15%def...but even that is far to weak. the heal shouldn´t go away and the dmg reduce should be bigger and baseline combined with a slightly lower cd. DPS Juggs need a real anti focus skill for pvp, or we get tunneled first in 7.0 as well and our taunts are useless because we are first to die anyway. if you arent willing to give us the dps/cc imunity of other specs/classes like the maro, at least make us strong in the defensive department.

 

I don´t undersstand some of the new ability tree choices... i mean why do i have to spec aoe at lvl 35, should be baseline? why is some weak utility like unyielding justice not base? why has war master the slow imunity instead of battlefield command? in some specs you don´t need the extra throw but you need the slowimunity. why is aoe def not passiv like all other classes? why is on lvl 78 purifying sweep and gather strength in comparison to through peace??! thats no comparison at all. some of it should be baseline! why is our only anti focus: saber reflect not baseline, maybe even lower its cd!? Why is the root on saber throw gone?

 

I don´t understand why Jugg is such a *****how. the other classes didn´t get such a bad treatment at all. i mean look at the maro in comparison, he is so much better in nearly everything.... You promised to look into the defs of the jugg with this update, but you did absolutely nothing. And to make grit teeth to work on a 3min saber ward instead of our heal isn´t making you look better at all.

Edited November 14, 2021 by -_Richtus_-

[velvet_illusionZ]

To be fair- they did change some things up since the first iteration of the PTS,BUT the stuff they changed is nice but niche! they didn't change the core problems dps juggs have.

-poor suvivability (our defs are outdated and not scaled properly since ages)

-poor damage (Buff Rage, Buff Veng's dots)

-poor mobility (1 semi antifocus reflect, 1 escape on a freaking 45-35 sec cd-operatives get the same escape- minus the damage, which neglectable tbh- on a 8 sec cd with 2 freaking charges-*** Bioware)

 

taking the current pts as a baseline you should do the following to achieve better and fairer balance across the board

-you make us choice between 3 vital abilities, make this choice meaningful, not punishing:

-buff mad dash to have 2 charges on a 20 sec cd, take out the damage and convert it to a 50%slow for 6 seconds for evreyone hit by it-reasoning: no one uses mad dash for its damage but as our only (medicore) escape, make it an ability worth taking

-buff reflect to work on melee too (to bring it on par with mercs reflect), add 5 sec 20% DR after the reflect ends-reasoning: we are melee we need more DR than range especially considering all the slows and roots you gave ranged class which forces us to be sitting ducks most of the time

-buff endure pain-get rid of the health boost lost part, making it a flat 30% heal on a 1 min cd, buff its DR to 25% and give the same DR to rage too-Reasoning: you change grit teath to work on sabre ward, further weakening our allready atrocious defenses, this way you give us a reliable self heal on 1 min cd to compensate for that loss.* this make the level 78 choice less punishing as it becomes viable to choose pooled hatred for morre damage over cd reduction on enraged defense

-buff sabre ward to give us the same cc immunity maradeur's got.reasoning: too many slows and roots on ranged classes in the game, give us a chance to reach them without being nearly dead by the time we get to them cause they rooted/slowed us AND unloaded their burst on us will we walk up to them like an old man....

-scale enraged defense stacks properly to compensate for the dps increase we have seen since 5.0.

 

with these changes we finally won't be the laughing stocks of ranked pvp anymore without making the class too strong.

 

side node- its pretty obvious you guys wanted to nerf the skank tank playstyle which is valid and needed, but you didn't need to nerf the whole class into oblivion doing so. cut down immortals burst while upping its threat generating to still make viable tanks for pve-problem solved

[velvet_illusionZ]

Side note- the defs ARE listening- now it is our jobs to give them reasonable ideas how to fix this mess. The last thing we can afford is to let these threads die out! so we gotta continue to make noice and show them we are not gonna accept the current state of Juggernauts/guardians.

Please keep on commenting to make sure we won't get overlooked again!

[velvet_illusionZ]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dyne- View Post

First they need to come to terms with the fact that ranged DPS and melee DPS can't be perfectly equal in terms of survivability and damage. Mercs and Juggs parse within 4-500 damage of each other, but Mercs have stronger defensives, better control, and more movement speed.

 

This is fine in PvE, but it doesn't work in PvP due to the difference in time on target. You can't have two classes with the same damage and similar defensives, but one gets to shoot you from 30 meters away and the other doesn't. Bioware has a few available options to try and correct this, but first and foremost they need to accept the fact that they created a class that has to stand in the middle of a ranged onslaught with few ways out. Juggernauts have to be equipped to weather the storm so they can actually participate in PvP, and ranged needs to be able to create distance.

 

DPS Juggs haven't been able to contribute in 4v4s for years now irrespective of player skill. The easiest way to balance this without breaking every other class in the game is to simply make Juggernauts tanky enough to survive the focus that they're inevitably going to receive.

 

My suggestions would be:

1) Add DR to Enraged Defense (For DPS spec only) and properly scale the heals received. Basically adding a buff similar to Power Yield but for Juggernauts.

 

2) Make Saber Reflect baseline with a passive "amp" that reduces the cooldown of Saber Reflect upon receiving incoming damage. Similar to Warmonger / what Mercs have for Energy Shield.

 

3)Increase the defensive capability of Saber Ward. This skill needs to be modernized.

 

Next step:

Pay very close attention to DPS Jugg ranked performance and adjust up or down accordingly.

[Starknaga]

But are skank tanks really that big of a problem? They are unkillable, but they can't kill anyone either Enemy team just ignores you once they see that you are a skank tank, you take much time to kill and you do low damage, so they ignore you and attack you only when all the others are dead and you are the last one to kill. This is what I experience all the time.

 

I play PvP from time to time, but 95% of the time I raid with my jugg, almost daily since 2019, and among raiders who play daily and raid - jugg is an unwanted class.

People use these parsing programs and they clearly see that juggs perform worse at DPS, they are at the bottom of the list (they need to approach the target in melee, while all the others are already firing etc)

Jugg tanks are also unwanted, people don't want you to bring a jugg tank to a veteran mode or master mode operations, simply because they perform noticeably worse than assassin tanks + have less of these "cheesy" skills like stealth. Everyone plays Assassin tanks, and when you bring a jugg people don't know what you are supposed to do, because everyone plays assassin tanks and all the online tank guides are written for assassin tanks - this is reality.

 

So what happens now is developer is nerfing juggs who in reality are considered by players to be the weakest choice - and they actually need to get buffed (come on these lightsabers are supposed to be lethal).

 

Why change Grit Teeth? It helps Jugg tanks in harder PvE content a lot! Assassin tank does not need this as due to it's shield it gets far less damage than Jugg - you can feel the difference immediately when you switch from jugg tank to a sin tank (in the very same gear set) that sin is taking less damage while inflicting more damage and aggro - it's visible without any parsers.

 

I second what someone in above post said - Juggernaut class gets nerfed and ruined so that 1% of players who actually play PvP has less to talk about.

It's not worth to make all these changes that might appeal to 1% but will ruin it for 99%.

We speak a lot about this on general chat in game - and entire community agrees that juggs are getting nerfed very hard as a class - and we all hope that these changes will not be implemented.

 

How is 7.0 called an expansion while you are actually taking things away from us hah?

[velvet_illusionZ]

But are skank tanks really that big of a problem? They are unkillable, but they can't kill anyone either Enemy team just ignores you once they see that you are a skank tank, you take much time to kill and you do low damage, so they ignore you and attack you only when all the others are dead and you are the last one to kill. This is what I experience all the time.

 

I play PvP from time to time, but 95% of the time I raid with my jugg, almost daily since 2019, and among raiders who play daily and raid - jugg is an unwanted class.

People use these parsing programs and they clearly see that juggs perform worse at DPS, they are at the bottom of the list (they need to approach the target in melee, while all the others are already firing etc)

Jugg tanks are also unwanted, people don't want you to bring a jugg tank to a veteran mode or master mode operations, simply because they perform noticeably worse than assassin tanks + have less of these "cheesy" skills like stealth. Everyone plays Assassin tanks, and when you bring a jugg people don't know what you are supposed to do, because everyone plays assassin tanks and all the online tank guides are written for assassin tanks - this is reality.

 

So what happens now is developer is nerfing juggs who in reality are considered by players to be the weakest choice - and they actually need to get buffed (come on these lightsabers are supposed to be lethal).

 

Why change Grit Teeth? It helps Jugg tanks in harder PvE content a lot! Assassin tank does not need this as due to it's shield it gets far less damage than Jugg - you can feel the difference immediately when you switch from jugg tank to a sin tank (in the very same gear set) that sin is taking less damage while inflicting more damage and aggro - it's visible without any parsers.

 

I second what someone in above post said - Juggernaut class gets nerfed and ruined so that 1% of players who actually play PvP has less to talk about.

It's not worth to make all these changes that might appeal to 1% but will ruin it for 99%.

We speak a lot about this on general chat in game - and entire community agrees that juggs are getting nerfed very hard as a class - and we all hope that these changes will not be implemented.

 

How is 7.0 called an expansion while you are actually taking things away from us hah?

 

the question is-how can we get the devs to finally give juggs some love and end our misery as bottom feeders-what nedds to happen to make them listening AND actually buffing juggs to be on par with the top classes...we don't need to be overpowered...but being in the top third of classes in damage and survivabilty would be a welcome change after all those years being at the bottom of the food chain...its about time bioware-BUFF Juggs!

[DougTheNoob]

But are skank tanks really that big of a problem? They are unkillable, but they can't kill anyone either Enemy team just ignores you once they see that you are a skank tank, you take much time to kill and you do low damage, so they ignore you and attack you only when all the others are dead and you are the last one to kill. This is what I experience all the time.

 

I play PvP from time to time, but 95% of the time I raid with my jugg, almost daily since 2019, and among raiders who play daily and raid - jugg is an unwanted class.

People use these parsing programs and they clearly see that juggs perform worse at DPS, they are at the bottom of the list (they need to approach the target in melee, while all the others are already firing etc)

Jugg tanks are also unwanted, people don't want you to bring a jugg tank to a veteran mode or master mode operations, simply because they perform noticeably worse than assassin tanks + have less of these "cheesy" skills like stealth. Everyone plays Assassin tanks, and when you bring a jugg people don't know what you are supposed to do, because everyone plays assassin tanks and all the online tank guides are written for assassin tanks - this is reality.

 

So what happens now is developer is nerfing juggs who in reality are considered by players to be the weakest choice - and they actually need to get buffed (come on these lightsabers are supposed to be lethal).

 

Why change Grit Teeth? It helps Jugg tanks in harder PvE content a lot! Assassin tank does not need this as due to it's shield it gets far less damage than Jugg - you can feel the difference immediately when you switch from jugg tank to a sin tank (in the very same gear set) that sin is taking less damage while inflicting more damage and aggro - it's visible without any parsers.

 

I second what someone in above post said - Juggernaut class gets nerfed and ruined so that 1% of players who actually play PvP has less to talk about.

It's not worth to make all these changes that might appeal to 1% but will ruin it for 99%.

We speak a lot about this on general chat in game - and entire community agrees that juggs are getting nerfed very hard as a class - and we all hope that these changes will not be implemented.

 

How is 7.0 called an expansion while you are actually taking things away from us hah?

 

U clearly not pvping much if u say skank juggs arent a problem and cant kill anything,while being nearly immortal when they have a healer with em.They can,and they kill a lot,since they have too much dps for a tank spec,while having the survivability of a tank.Imo,that was the only problematic spec that needed a nerf. But a nerf on its dmg,and not its survivability. BW is just dumb lol. And Rage jugg deserved a huge buff,instead of being even more screwed. Veng jugg was fine,tho a small buff wouldnt hurt either. But BW nerfing all the 3 specs shows they have no clue what they doing.

Edited November 16, 2021 by DougTheNoob

[-_Richtus_-]

U clearly not pvping much if u say skank juggs arent a problem and cant kill anything,while being nearly immortal when they have a healer with em.They can,and they kill a lot,since they have too much dps for a tank spec,while having the survivability of a tank.Imo,that was the only problematic spec that needed a nerf. But a nerf on its dmg,and not its survivability. BW is just dumb lol. And Rage jugg deserved a huge buff,instead of being even more screwed. Veng jugg was fine,tho a small buff wouldnt hurt either. But BW nerfing all the 3 specs shows they have no clue what they doing.

 

Even in immortal you have higher crits and better aoe (burst) than rage . just funny.

 

@JackieKo can we get some respone to all the feedback please? are you finally doing what you promised even before 6.0 and buffing the dcds and dmg? Are you finally scaling ed properly? Are you finally making rage playable again? Are you finally making enure a real def? Are you updating the choices in the tree? or are you just ignoring all the feedback again and let this *****how for Jugg dps go live? i mean 7.0 is only 4-5 weeks from now!? you can´t be serious to let this disastrous half backed stuff go live!?....and until now you did almost nothing for the core problem...

So it´s time for some clarity.

Edited November 18, 2021 by -_Richtus_-

[velvet_illusionZ]

well spoken!

they can't in their right mind let this go live as it currently is, if they do they will embarras themselves big time as totally incompetent to balance anything properly

@jackie- the message you are sending to your players by not responding is allready as poor as it gets....you need to understand, and this fast, that we don't need to play your game,give you our money, you need us to play your game and you need our money to pay your depts...

[karimthejedi]

well spoken!

they can't in their right mind let this go live as it currently is, if they do they will embarras themselves big time as totally incompetent to balance anything properly

@jackie- the message you are sending to your players by not responding is allready as poor as it gets....you need to understand, and this fast, that we don't need to play your game,give you our money, you need us to play your game and you need our money to pay your depts...

 

Agreed; I think some of us are considering a new MMO. I hope the devs listen before doing anything.

[velvet_illusionZ]

@jackieKo-another day-and still no reaction whatsoever! either do something or at least admit that you got classes clearly favored....either way this state of class balancing is unacceptable!

[-_Richtus_-]

@jackieKo-another day-and still no reaction whatsoever! either do something or at least admit that you got classes clearly favored....either way this state of class balancing is unacceptable!

 

If they are really generous they will give us reflect back and call it a day, like always….

I don‘t know a single dps jugg who is hyped for this update. Not a single one.

With this update you force us to skank again and i thought you don‘t like that? But you do everything you can to drive us in this way if we want to play jugg in pvp at all.

 

I mean if i see the changes since 5.0/6.0 i doubt the one responsible for jugg is even playing other things except the story in this game.

[afwhoefuwov]

So many good feedback, I hope Bioware listens. I mean, the "mascot", at least for the Empire side, is Malgus who is a Juggernaut. I play the game because he looks awesome and intimidating during battle, it would be a shame to find out Jugg cant even stand their own ground in this next expansion.

[Tintfax]

Hey, a returning Player here. After Bioware managed do drive me away from the Game with Kotet and Kotfe, i thought, i give Swtor a Chance again. But the Changes of the DPS-Jugg-Class is a little bit disturbing. I mean, if you had ask me, what is the most iconic Skill of Juggs. I would have said "Saber Reflect", without hesitation. Having to to skill into it, is............ depressing. Even more, having to chose between Saber Reflect and Mad Dash is an insane Nerf. We are loosing plenty of uptime and QoL. It would be, some sort of okay, if we get Compensated in some way, but i see no Compensation.

 

I mean... if changes do not make the Game better, then don't do it!!!! I can not see, how this nerfs, of an already as weak and squishy considered class, make the game more fun to play. You can create the best story, the most interesting Group and Single-Player Content ever made, but if your Class is not fun to play, all Content is sh***.

 

Well, i just wanted to say, i am shocked.... and i really would like to hear(read), why this changes are made. I simply don't understand it. Maybe, the devs are right, and all this changes make the game better, but they really should give some sort of explanation, or this will end in a **** show, which will hurt the game... again. I did not read all the changes to the other classes, but i guess there is the same **** going on.

 

Sorry for bad English..not my native language.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Tintfax

[velvet_illusionZ]

Hey, a returning Player here. After Bioware managed do drive me away from the Game with Kotet and Kotfe, i thought, i give Swtor a Chance again. But the Changes of the DPS-Jugg-Class is a little bit disturbing. I mean, if you had ask me, what is the most iconic Skill of Juggs. I would have said "Saber Reflect", without hesitation. Having to to skill into it, is............ depressing. Even more, having to chose between Saber Reflect and Mad Dash is an insane Nerf. We are loosing plenty of uptime and QoL. It would be, some sort of okay, if we get Compensated in some way, but i see no Compensation.

 

I mean... if changes do not make the Game better, then don't do it!!!! I can not see, how this nerfs, of an already as weak and squishy considered class, make the game more fun to play. You can create the best story, the most interesting Group and Single-Player Content ever made, but if your Class is not fun to play, all Content is sh***.

 

Well, i just wanted to say, i am shocked.... and i really would like to hear(read), why this changes are made. I simply don't understand it. Maybe, the devs are right, and all this changes make the game better, but they really should give some sort of explanation, or this will end in a **** show, which will hurt the game... again. I did not read all the changes to the other classes, but i guess there is the same **** going on.

 

Sorry for bad English..not my native language.

 

sadly juggs/maras are hit the hardest-as usual-their are countless comments on this, giving the devs numerous ideas how to fix the mess they created, but they have done literally nothing of consequence to fix it or communicated why they did the changes they did. so I guess the sad reality will be that this hot mess goes live and juggs will again be one of the if not the weakest class there is...what makes this even more problematic is the fact that the devs promissed to look into our dcds to bring them on par even before 6.0 launched and now they "delivered" by gutting the dps specs even more to make them complety unplayable...but hey as long as mercs and ops are fine there is no problem....merc wars-operatives of the old republic will flourish, cause who wants to play iconic jedi/sith classes and have them competitive anyway...

 

@jackieKO-when will we finally get a response to all the feedback?!

[velvet_illusionZ]

@Jackie