Please listen to player feedback

[Baletraeger]

And ask us more questions.

 

I get it. You've been given a goal to reach and you are using the process you learned to make data driven decisions. But a cornerstone of the product management process includes confirmating AND refuting your decisions based on qualitative data. When you decide to condescend to players that our feedback is 'too emotional' or we dont understand the long term game it only hurts your development process.

 

I am going to use a recent example. Onslaught gearing. This was a really exciting system when it was announced. Horizontal gearing systems are great for player engagement. Collecting of course, but also for broader use, more theorycrafting, etc. But it has largely failed to change gameplay.

 

Why?

 

Well, you made getting the gear an unenjoyable experience. Grinding the more efficient content in the game for currency, and rng vendor, and locking certain sets behind some of the least played content in the game. You were given this feedback clearly from the players, but ignored it because it didn't agree with your engagement metrics.

 

Second, you ignored feedback that set bonuses at 4/6 pieces would restrict the ability for players to mix and match sets, a cornerstone of horizontal gearing systems. If you had set a 3/6 bonus system we would still be theorycrafting today on the best set mix for different content. Instead what you got was the BIS equation solved in the first week of release (barring a few changes due to set nerfs) and the rest of the sets and tacticals ignored outside of achievement collectors.

 

Your data will tell you that the gearing system isn't engaging players. But without qualitative data you don't really understand why.

 

I understand that you are getting a lot of charged feedback from players here, on r/swtor, and twitter. I challenge you to read it, respond and ask for more from us. Ask us WHY we feel the way we do about a certain change. Ask us what we would do differently. For example, on the is whole ability cull thing. Ask us to create our ideal hotbar. What are the skills that every character MUST have in our opinion. Are there skills that every melee, ranged, dot, burst, healer must have? Is there a skill or skils that define what it means to be an Agent? Are there skill(s) that define what it means to be an operative? A Sniper?

 

Your players want this game to succeed just as much as you do, we aren't your enemy, but we are a tremendous source of data if you'll take the time.

[Rion_Starkiller]

What are you going on about?

 

Most of the folks around here only want to give reactionary emotional feedback, and subscribe to the thought process of change = bad.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I pay to be entertained by BioWare, not do their work for them -- though I've certainly given them good ideas over the years (in my mind).

Edited August 26, 2021 by Rion_Starkiller

[Athrulas]

I understand that you are getting a lot of charged feedback from players here, on r/swtor, and twitter. I challenge you to read it, respond and ask for more from us.

 

Did you miss the plethora of changes they made to Guard/Sent based on our feedback? All of the changes were from things we posted. One of them was something I posted about.

[Zorii_Bliss]

What are you going on about?

 

Most of the folks around here only want to give reactionary emotional feedback, and subscribe to the thought process of change = bad.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I pay to be entertained by BioWare, not do their work for them -- though I've certainly given them good ideas over the years (in my mind).

 

Then what are you doing here?

If you don't want to be involved in the design of your entertainment then kindly do not berate people who are very much more interested in how their entertainment is designed.

[Omega]

Then what are you doing here?

If you don't want to be involved in the design of your entertainment then kindly do not berate people who are very much more interested in how their entertainment is designed.

 

If the only voices are complaints, then you perpetuate the false image that everyone hates all the changes. I for one think most of the proposals are fine, and the biggest complaints I had are largely being addressed with each update they've made.

 

You want to know what you sound like to the people who aren't constantly complaining?

 

"Why are you still here if you hate the changes they are making? Go play something else."

 

How does that feel to you? Does it feel good to be shouted down for your opinion?

[Zorii_Bliss]

Did you miss the plethora of changes they made to Guard/Sent based on our feedback? All of the changes were from things we posted. One of them was something I posted about.

 

OP's point is that if they bothered to value customer engagement and input more thoroughly from the design phase onwards then your (succesful) bug reporting may well have not been needed and your efforts spent and valued on less obvious but just as crucial things that might solve balance issues rather than spotting missing features (like the absent wheel on a car).

[Galbsadi]

What are you going on about?

 

Most of the folks around here only want to give reactionary emotional feedback, and subscribe to the thought process of change = bad.

 

I mean, the feedback the devs are asking for here is "does this class feel like...." ...it's literally asking for emotional feedback. Some of us are going a step further to elaborate on the WHY it does or doesn't, and I hope it benefits the devs, but I don't think the consensus is that change is bad in and of itself, just certain changes.

 

For example, I'm pretty sure most people are fine with removing abilities from Guardian...just not iconic things like Saber Throw (which got added back in). Same applies to Operative with Sleep Dart.

 

Yes, there are exceptions (such as the guy who asked for Orbital Strike back on operatives like 90 times in one post), and yes, some of the changes they've made in the past hamper the feel for some players (I still miss using cover on an operative, for example. I've adjusted, but it just felt so right.)

 

Maybe it's just me, but I pay to be entertained by BioWare, not do their work for them -- though I've certainly given them good ideas over the years (in my mind).

 

In all fairness, this isn't really doing their work for them. It's providing feedback on what you do or don't like with the work they've done. That feedback isn't going to magically materialize if nobody contributes it, and I think I can speak for the majority of us when I say we'd certainly it rather came from people invested in the game continuing to be fun than some boardroom executive, lest we end up with Star Wars: Warlords of the Old Republic of Draenor.

 

So, if you don't feel like you want to contribute feedback, that's fine, but please don't presume it's "doing their work for them." It's just doing your part in contributing to the community to hopefully make this game stay decent (or, better yet, become great) for the future.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Galbsadi

[Zorii_Bliss]

If the only voices are complaints, then you perpetuate the false image that everyone hates all the changes. I for one think most of the proposals are fine, and the biggest complaints I had are largely being addressed with each update they've made.

 

You want to know what you sound like to the people who aren't constantly complaining?

 

"Why are you still here if you hate the changes they are making? Go play something else."

 

How does that feel to you? Does it feel good to be shouted down for your opinion?

 

What false image?

 

You are projecting your OWN impressions (fallacious to be sure) in order to justify telling someone else to not complain about things affecting them. Not complaints that are baseless or already refuted by official statements but complaints about issues that have not been acknowledged or addressed.

The only reason we're getting updates that might be making you feel better is because others (that you're telling to stop) are voicing their legitimate concerns.

 

So again, if you don't want to hear or see the complaining and the consequent revelations about the future of your entertainment which you're not fussed about how it's constructed, why are you here?

[Omega]

What false image?

 

You are projecting your OWN impressions (fallacious to be sure) in order to justify telling someone else to not complain about things affecting them. Not complaints that are baseless or already refuted by official statements but complaints about issues that have not been acknowledged or addressed.

The only reason we're getting updates that might be making you feel better is because others (that you're telling to stop) are voicing their legitimate concerns.

 

So again, if you don't want to hear or see the complaining and the consequent revelations about the future of your entertainment which you're not fussed about how it's constructed, why are you here?

 

To give feedback of my own?

 

And how is my statement false? That not everyone hates the changes? Are you trying to say that's false? I don't hate the changes, therefore EVERYONE doesn't hate the changes. I didn't say majority. I didn't say most. I just said that not everyone hates it.

 

You seem to have a real unhealthy obsession with this game based on how much you seem to post here, so I get it. It means a lot to you. Fine. But that doesn't mean that you're the only one who gets to comment.

 

EDIT: And they took my feedback as well. I commented here and on Reddit about a number of things that they ended up adjusting. Mainly the Predation update which I thought was poorly thought out initially. Its not just "others" are giving feedback. But no, anyone who disgrees with you should just shut up right?

Edited August 26, 2021 by Omega

[Iymurra]

Yes, there are exceptions (such as the guy who asked for Orbital Strike back on operatives like 90 times in one post), and yes, some of the changes they've made in the past hamper the feel for some players (I still miss using cover on an operative, for example. I've adjusted, but it just felt so right.)

 

Hey now, if Saber Throw is iconic for Guardians, then Orbital Strike is iconic for Agents.

'Sides, I said other helpful feedbacky things too.

 

I miss Orbital Strike, ya know?

 

(also, cover on operatives was great. Saved my life once or twice while leveling. Hunker down behind some crates, get some hp back with kolto probe and evade all the white damage. I absolutely miss it.)

Edited August 27, 2021 by Iymurra

[Stradlin]

Have you ever seen a feature on Test Center that'd get shot down due to player feedback? Talk about a bug you've found in this, and they will listen. Talk about how bad idea this is..and they won't care.

 

People always complain about new, different things. In our guilds discord, there is a steady amount of concern towards most all new features. Never experienced such volume of loathing and pessimism these proposed changes have brought there tho. People hate the notion of losing hallmark abilities that to large degree define the class. No wonder.

[Galbsadi]

Have you ever seen a feature on Test Center that'd get shot down due to player feedback? Talk about a bug you've found in this, and they will listen. Talk about how bad idea this is..and they won't care.

 

I mean, maybe? I'm not so sure, given Saber Throw and Sleep Dart. Yes, they *said* it was a bug and they never meant to remove them, but it was only after massive complaints. I'm slightly more inclined to believe it wasn't a bug and they just realized that removing those abilities will alienate way too many people.

[Iymurra]

Yes, classes have changed before due to player feedback.

 

Specifically, changes to Sith Assassin tanking (lightning regens hp to provides dr). When shifting from 1.0 there was a change with dark ward which was widely panned by the community and was changed to allow for sin tanks to be effective in combat and raids.

[AdjeYo]

I mean, maybe? I'm not so sure, given Saber Throw and Sleep Dart. Yes, they *said* it was a bug and they never meant to remove them, but it was only after massive complaints. I'm slightly more inclined to believe it wasn't a bug and they just realized that removing those abilities will alienate way too many people.

 

Sleep Dart they called a bug, but Saber Throw was planned to be an optional choice (you can go back in the Dev tracker and see the options for Focus Guardians to verify). So this is actually something they changed about the system directly based on player feedback already.

 

It seems set in stone we will see some abilities removed and others turned into choices. However, Bioware is clearly willing to listen to which abilities should and should not be pruned according to players.

[bryanskrantz]

So far from what I've seen the devs DO listen to constructive feedback. They might not do what YOU want but if the majority feel something needs changing they'll do it. at least during this phase of testing. and I'm a founder xD

[Athrulas]

OP's point is that if they bothered to value customer engagement and input more thoroughly from the design phase onwards then your (succesful) bug reporting may well have not been needed and your efforts spent and valued on less obvious but just as crucial things that might solve balance issues rather than spotting missing features (like the absent wheel on a car).

 

So... again, exactly what they've been doing and have implemented in the PTS based on our feedback.

[Wolvel]

So... again, exactly what they've been doing and have implemented in the PTS based on our feedback.

 

o joy they gave dps jugg saber throw back, let me get the confetti. its like they broke our knees and sent us a get well soon card.