Does anyone else feel like this is a HUGE problem?

[Sareeph]

This is what you get relative to endgame by doing endless Red Reaper and Hammer Station runs:

1) A rapid grind to item rating 306, which isn't fast at all especially once you get that first toon in your legacy to 306

2) A chance at flashpoint-specific tacticals, which may or may not be BiS for your particular discipline. This chance is pretty low from the final bosses of Veteran mode, higher from master mode, and somewhere in the middle from the Artifact Flashpoint Equipment crates. Crates you only earn either from completing the [WEEKLY] or by doing the random activity finder FP and having ALL the flashpoints selected.

3) Lots of tech fragments, which you can use to purchase the BiS gear, if it happens to be something available on the static vendors

4) Lots of conquest points, which earns you and your guild progress towards the personal and guild goal. Conquest crates are, for some disciplines, the source for BiS gear.

 

A RAPID grind, which ISN't FAST? Explain that!

 

I was looking more at the second part of that sentence. I just stuck an unmodable set of 306 gear in my legacy bank and then all my toons were 306.

 

As a side note, I still get loads of 304 riddled gear and useless tacticals from the bosses when I do NiM content so not sure how they are much better. Sure I get more frags from an Op boss but for Fp's there are no lock outs. Still have never once seen an EP set piece drop in an Op in any mode. Mine came courtesy of Kai.

[cloneofdax]

Have not read anything other than post one, but all I can say is that it's not a problem for me or even a problem at all. I never like any gear, crafting mats given out as rewards for doing certain in-game activities. By all means extra renown points, tech fragments, credits is all fine, and then buy the equipment you want with the tech fragments from venders. The extra, credits, renown points and fragments are the reward for doing the harder activities. So saying you get nothing for doing them is incorrect.

[OlBuzzard]

CM takes incentives for players out of the game play loop and removes incentive for Bioware to add cool gear skins to in game drops (Ops or any other). Right, wrong or indifferent adding super cool gear skins, mounts or anything that is sold on the CM seems unlikely.

 

Problem is SWTOR can really only reward players with stat cubes because of the CM... It hurt crafting development as well IMO for the same reasons.

 

I'm not saying the CM shouldn't exist...They just put so much on the CM that it seems to impact player incentives in the game play loop (loot/craft/rewards).

 

Please believe me when I tell you that I understand where you are coming from.

 

IMO: nothing wrong with having "cool stuff" on the CM. BUT IMO there should equally be :

 

** BiS auggies / armor / mods etc available in game. IMO this is usually found in difficult levels where players can excel and be rewarded for it.

** Crafting items that are rare and unusual should also be found in these same "end game" levels (OPs ... etc)

** Other incentives for those who really CAN and do prefer that style of playing level.

 

Unfortunately it seems to be the order of the day to hide the more "common" high end gear in these places in the place of what we are discussing. In other words so many game developers really don't want to spend the time (and resource) developing both.

 

I remember when crafting in WoW use to be worth something. I'm looking right now at a figure print of my Tauren with said gear from several years back :

** An Axe (one of two that I crafted ... one is a real "killer" when matched up with the "Gorehowl" in the other hand !!)

** 3 (of a 4 piece set) all crafted : second highest set available in game (period) at that time: Shoulders , chest and leggings.

 

Back in those days crafting really did mean something .. but not any more !

 

I said that to say this: SWTOR is not the only one to make those kind of changes. IMO .. they're not good changes. But then again .. what do I know.

 

IMO there is a lot to be said about how to provide the "good stuff" both in game and in the CM.

 

Unfortunately I sense the shroud of the dark side ...

 

... The dark side is quicker, easier ... more seductive !!

 

As for what the future of this game holds:

" The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is ... "

[TrixxieTriss]

Please believe me when I tell you that I understand where you are coming from.

 

IMO: nothing wrong with having "cool stuff" on the CM. BUT IMO there should equally be :

 

** BiS auggies / armor / mods etc available in game. IMO this is usually found in difficult levels where players can excel and be rewarded for it.

** Crafting items that are rare and unusual should also be found in these same "end game" levels (OPs ... etc)

** Other incentives for those who really CAN and do prefer that style of playing level.

 

Unfortunately it seems to be the order of the day to hide the more "common" high end gear in these places in the place of what we are discussing. In other words so many game developers really don't want to spend the time (and resource) developing both.

 

I remember when crafting in WoW use to be worth something. I'm looking right now at a figure print of my Tauren with said gear from several years back :

** An Axe (one of two that I crafted ... one is a real "killer" when matched up with the "Gorehowl" in the other hand !!)

** 3 (of a 4 piece set) all crafted : second highest set available in game (period) at that time: Shoulders , chest and leggings.

 

Back in those days crafting really did mean something .. but not any more !

 

I said that to say this: SWTOR is not the only one to make those kind of changes. IMO .. they're not good changes. But then again .. what do I know.

 

IMO there is a lot to be said about how to provide the "good stuff" both in game and in the CM.

 

Unfortunately I sense the shroud of the dark side ...

 

... The dark side is quicker, easier ... more seductive !!

 

As for what the future of this game holds:

" The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is ... "

 

I’d like to see actual good/rare decorations be craftable. It’s the one thing missing from crafting. I know you can craft the mats you trade at the vendor, but it’s not as satisfying as crafting an item. Plus it’s a PITA to have to go to the vendors to trade the mats.

[Tsillah]

CM takes incentives for players out of the game play loop and removes incentive for Bioware to add cool gear skins to in game drops (Ops or any other). Right, wrong or indifferent adding super cool gear skins, mounts or anything that is sold on the CM seems unlikely.

 

Problem is SWTOR can really only reward players with stat cubes because of the CM... It hurt crafting development as well IMO for the same reasons.

 

I'm not saying the CM shouldn't exist...They just put so much on the CM that it seems to impact player incentives in the game play loop (loot/craft/rewards).

All agreed but I also want to add something to the highlighted bit. They can only reward people with stat gear, but they've devaluated HM/NiM content and PvP content by handing out BiS gear to everyone and because there will always be new tiers of gear that devaluates the gear itself.

 

So for the reasons you mention and with the addition I made that's why I feel this game is not rewarding to play at all. And after having done the same old content many times, the intrinsic value of said content has suffered from diminishing returns as well.

 

That's the reason for the increasingly longer big breaks I take from the game.

[Soljin]

All agreed but I also want to add something to the highlighted bit. They can only reward people with stat gear, but they've devaluated HM/NiM content and PvP content by handing out BiS gear to everyone and because there will always be new tiers of gear that devaluates the gear itself.

 

So for the reasons you mention and with the addition I made that's why I feel this game is not rewarding to play at all. And after having done the same old content many times, the intrinsic value of said content has suffered from diminishing returns as well.

 

That's the reason for the increasingly longer big breaks I take from the game.

 

I have never been a fan of locking "high end" gear behind group content specifically that said I do support the idea of "hardmode" content Group and Solo containing the top tier gear and higher rarity items in general.

 

It makes sense that you progress your gear and skill and then step up to the next difficulty though IMO it should be open to solo players as well. Most MMO(s) associate group content with difficulty when it's not more difficult content its a matter of coordination and drama management...

 

It's clearly possible to design difficult/challenging solo content just take a look at single player games for inspiration.

 

I don't mind the current system honestly I feel like there is something missing with the loot itself not the acquisition... I really think by removing the majority of the "cool" cosmetics from the game they ripped out part of the draw of their in game loot and with it some of peoples interest in playing the game.

 

If you ask many MMO players why they play MMO(s) they are pretty likely to say community and LOOT! SWToR has Stat drops not traditional loot.

 

I don't get the normal loot feeling when I loot something in SWToR. If I get a purple drop while playing I don't even bother to open my inventory and look at it until I clean out my inventory later... That tells me the loot system is not interesting at least for me.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Soljin

[RikuvonDrake]

i like what they have done with high tier endgame content like nightmare ops and ranked pvp in terms of incentives, in gods you are able to get a lot of high value cartel market items, in dxun you get some decently looking armor sets with unique animations as well as exclusive decorations. for ranked there are always new cosmetic items which at least recently have been pretty popular as they reintroduced a few old ones that people really liked

 

cartel market being only cosmetic items is good, rather that than it being p2w with actually good endgame gear

[Soljin]

i like what they have done with high tier endgame content like nightmare ops and ranked pvp in terms of incentives, in gods you are able to get a lot of high value cartel market items, in dxun you get some decently looking armor sets with unique animations as well as exclusive decorations. for ranked there are always new cosmetic items which at least recently have been pretty popular as they reintroduced a few old ones that people really liked

 

cartel market being only cosmetic items is good, rather that than it being p2w with actually good endgame gear

 

Actually SWToR has the mechanics to be P2W it's just that gear doesn't really mean anything in SWToR so why bother. If you buy CC and then purchase some decorations or a cool armor set you can then sell it in some instances for 5 or 600 million credits which you can then use to buy high end crafted gear...

 

Luckily the incentive to do that is missing from SWToR which is another problem all together.

[RikuvonDrake]

Actually SWToR has the mechanics to be P2W it's just that gear doesn't really mean anything in SWToR so why bother. If you buy CC and then purchase some decorations or a cool armor set you can then sell it in some instances for 5 or 600 million credits which you can then use to buy high end crafted gear...

 

Luckily the incentive to do that is missing from SWToR which is another problem all together.

 

feel like it's a bit of a stretch to call it p2w but I get your point although that would recategorize almost all online games/mmos to p2w in particular since its more about being able to sell cm cosmetic items on gtn and then buying boosts for pve/pvp

Edited August 22, 2021 by RikuvonDrake

[Soljin]

feel like it's a bit of a stretch to call it p2w but I get your point although that would recategorize almost all online games/mmos to p2w in particular since its more about being able to sell cm cosmetic items on gtn and then buying boosts for pve/pvp

 

I agree that many perceive P2W as buying gear advantage directly from a store though I also believe that companies have evolved the system to be less direct to avoid that common perception while achieving the same goals indirectly. Some argue that the WoW token is not P2W and others say that it is because Blizzard condones content carries...which is very indirect.

 

I'm not against in game stores but I am against those items being tradeable in game or currency transferable items like the WoW token.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Soljin

[mike_carton]

Who wants to place odds that the “new” gearing sets / system in 7.0 will be locked or gated behind specific content and horizontal gearing will disappear?

 

I like the gearing system in 6.0; not having to do VM and MM Ops to get the best gear democratizes the process. But I've noticed several threads over the last year started with posts that sound suspiciously like trial balloons intended to get us used to the idea of going back to the bad, old days and ways. Then they introduced RPMs, OEMs, and 300 augments.

 

Like you, I have a bad feeling about this.

[mike_carton]

This is my point of view as a longtime player: the systems in place that allow for gearing, including gaining most useful set bonuses, outside of Ops is extremely beneficial...

 

The 6.x gearing system is the best we've had to date, and I hope at least something like it stays in place for 7.x. You don't have to roll against others for set bonus pieces, save for a few Dxun-specific sets, and instead put time into whichever parts of the game that are personally more enjoyable for your playstyle, as it's evolved over the time...

 

In short, I ended up playing/gearing more classes because it wasn't necessary to run the same older Ops over again, and was still able to join guild runs for Dxun and queue for PVP properly geared as well. I don't think the concerns in the OP are a problem, generally.

 

Agree very much with everything in the post. Abstracted some parts out for special mention. I hope we get a very similar gearing system in 7.X

[Tsillah]

IMO this is the one area that does seem to be somewhat controlled by the CM.

Well for the most part controlled I'd say and the other area (which is technically also cosmetic) are the decorations.

While it is technically not a REQUIREMENT that a player use the armor sets provided in the CM in order to play the game .. IMO most (95% or better) of the "sets" of armor that are provided (shell sets included) are some of the oddest (*** NOTE) designs I've ever seen. ALL of my characters (especially Lana) use sets that are off of the CM. Before someone jumps to the wrong conclusion let me tell you that I have not dropped that kind of cash on the CM.

Space Barbie is important. People who focus on just the stats are living in the past when they have an attitude about it. Nowadays, people want to kick *** and look good doing it. That's why it's monetized. If people wouldn't be so negative about p2w, then they'd monetize that too, but I'm happy it's not.

I have purchased most of the sets initially off of the GTN. I don't run out and just blindly spend tons of credits on ANY complete outfit. Sometimes it takes me MONTHS to find what I want. In the case of the JK .. I got the robes (primarily) .. and if we wanted other complimentary parts we then added them.

Ok, going on the attack here a little bit, so hold onto something ...The thing I always say about the "excuse" that people give about buying CM stuff from the GTN is that somebody had to buy it off the CM. Maybe it's not you directly but by purchasing it from the GTN you do enable CM purchases. As for complete outfits that's the only way to unlock them in collections. BW is smart in those types of things.

AS for "set bonus" outfits let's just say I'm seriously glad we have the cosmetic outfit tabs for well .. the cosmetic side of things !!

Yeah, in 1.0 that was not a good thing. You had to wear the armor sets that it came with. Initially the solution was that the mods (armorings) carried the set bonus on them so you could stick them in any armor. Now they've reverted that and made the outfit designer instead...which they could then monetize and use as a credit sink even more.

BUT .. what would happen if end game ( OPs or Master mode stuff) provided drops that had some really nice stuff to properly reward those who played that aspect of the game. IMO this is what should be available.

The casual crowd would complain loudly and want that stuff too. That's how BiS gear also was taken from harder endgame content.

Hiding gear that many of us want (need) to play the rest of the game is just wrong. But there should clearly be some of the good stuff (including BiS mods) available for end game OPs and other more competitive PvE areas .

Not sure about need but bottom line WAS that if you wanted to progress in Ops through the harder modes you first needed a minimum of stats. That's what progression raiding was all about. They took that away and here we are.

PvP ... they need their rewards where it will do them the most good !! It's one thing to complete the PvE side of the the game an be a part of the story ( that's the essence of the game) .. BUT driving the PvP players into a viscous circle of PvE in order to compete in PvP just doesn't make sense either.

I don't think you mean viscous but rather vicious lol. PvP vs PvE gear never made sense in this game and it doesn't now.

(***NOTE) using the term "oddest" was being very polite. Frankly IMO some of the cosmetic appearances of the normal "drop" gear is just plain ugly to me !!

Just say fugly. Edited August 22, 2021 by Tsillah

[OlBuzzard]

Well for the most part controlled I'd say and the other area (which is technically also cosmetic) are the decorations.

 

At one time there were drops : robes for JK / jackets for smugglers ... and especially deco drops for running all sorts of different aspects of the game (rewards drops too). Not a plentiful as most of us would have liked ... but there were several. In know because I have some of each: the decorations in particular. However .. those days are slipping away quickly. And yes some people will pay just about any price to get them . I'm NOT one of those people. (I'll bring this up again later on).

 

Space Barbie is important. People who focus on just the stats are living in the past when they have an attitude about it. Nowadays, people want to kick *** and look good doing it. That's why it's monetized. If people wouldn't be so negative about p2w, then they'd monetize that too, but I'm happy it's not.

 

 

While "Space Barbie" definitely is a part of what of the game .. I'm personally looking more at "outfits" that help to better define the character in many cases. Lana's "second" outfit leaves a lot to be desired. Soo .. I initially found a cape, and other more complimentary items to complete the "look" that was much better. And yes some of those were initially off of the CM. BUT I picked them up off of the GTN ( Please review my next note on "cost")

 

Ok, going on the attack here a little bit, so hold onto something ...The thing I always say about the "excuse" that people give about buying CM stuff from the GTN is that somebody had to buy it off the CM. Maybe it's not you directly but by purchasing it from the GTN you do enable CM purchases. As for complete outfits that's the only way to unlock them in collections. BW is smart in those types of things.

 

** When I see parts of an outfit that I like I will wait as long as necessary to buy them cheap. By that I do not mean any of the ridiculously high priced items that we have seen in the last few months. Good grief even when certain "dresses" , "tops" , " head pieces" were over priced back in the day .. I would still watch for weeks (sometimes months ) to get them at the "right price". (Adept scout head set was a prime example).

 

Yeah .. I really am that cheap. And I have YET to add that one to my "collections". If you want to .. It's amazing just how cheap you can outfit a good character cosmetically speaking by "piecing" it together. Most of the complete outfits have something that I don't like anyways.

 

Smuggler for example:

** find the " idea" chest piece ... watch for the right price and snag it off of the GTN. (I'm not blowing 1 - 2 K in CC to buy an outfit.

** I use the "legs" off of one outfit ...

** Finding the right boots can be a challenge sometimes. But there again ... you might be surprised what a person can put together for the right cosmetic appearance.

 

Making the move to allow a player a separate "look" from the gear with the stats actually helped everyone (when it gets right down to it).

 

I have always been "tight" with how I spend credits .. for cosmetic appearance of my characters or on decos for my strongholds !

 

IF BW was depending upon folks like me to keep the lights on ... BAD idea ! They'd already gone broke by now!

 

Yeah, in 1.0 that was not a good thing. You had to wear the armor sets that it came with. Initially the solution was that the mods (armorings) carried the set bonus on them so you could stick them in any armor. Now they've reverted that and made the outfit designer instead...which they could then monetize and use as a credit sink even more.

 

Cosmetic stuff is always an option. Even the decorations (when it gets right down to this as well). "Back in the day" there were good drops. Not so much any more. There may be a few ... but with less and less new things to do ... there has also been less and less "rewards" in the form of decorations or other items (such as special gear) that has been made available.

 

 

The casual crowd would complain loudly and want that stuff too. That's how BiS gear also was taken from harder endgame content.

IMO this is only partially true. 306 gear is available ... but IMO there is still the necessity to run FP's / Heroics ...etc regularly if you want to outfit your characters with good gear. HOWEVER this is a far cry from BiS Mods / and accessories (ear pieces etc) .

 

Additionally when I mention "unique gear" that should not be a problem. I AM a casual player. I understand the need for tougher places and higher levels of game experience. IMO this is just as important as PvP players getting a fair shake. Unfortunately it seems as though too many developers love to see the "pendulum" of presentation to either one extreme or the other. IMO the absence of common sense and providing "balance" to reach a WIDER audience manages to get thrown out the proverbial window almost without fail all too often.

 

Not sure about need but bottom line WAS that if you wanted to progress in Ops through the harder modes you first needed a minimum of stats. That's what progression raiding was all about. They took that away and here we are.

I don't think you mean viscous but rather vicious lol. PvP vs PvE gear never made sense in this game and it doesn't now.

Just say fugly.

I meant vicious ... sorry about that chief !!

 

Any how ... hope this works a little better

[Tsillah]

At one time there were drops : robes for JK / jackets for smugglers ... and especially deco drops for running all sorts of different aspects of the game (rewards drops too). Not a plentiful as most of us would have liked ... but there were several. In know because I have some of each: the decorations in particular. However .. those days are slipping away quickly. And yes some people will pay just about any price to get them . I'm NOT one of those people. (I'll bring this up again later on).

yep, but they took the planetary rewards away and replaced them with generic skins (Heroics).

While "Space Barbie" definitely is a part of what of the game .. I'm personally looking more at "outfits" that help to better define the character in many cases. Lana's "second" outfit leaves a lot to be desired. Soo .. I initially found a cape, and other more complimentary items to complete the "look" that was much better. And yes some of those were initially off of the CM. BUT I picked them up off of the GTN ( Please review my next note on "cost")

Well what you do I also consider "Space Barbie". I don't use that term in a negative way. It's just when you care about the way the character looks and that's it.

** When I see parts of an outfit that I like I will wait as long as necessary to buy them cheap. By that I do not mean any of the ridiculously high priced items that we have seen in the last few months. Good grief even when certain "dresses" , "tops" , " head pieces" were over priced back in the day .. I would still watch for weeks (sometimes months ) to get them at the "right price". (Adept scout head set was a prime example).

yeah waiting on sales on the GTN vs gaining it by playing the game...

Yeah .. I really am that cheap. And I have YET to add that one to my "collections". If you want to .. It's amazing just how cheap you can outfit a good character cosmetically speaking by "piecing" it together. Most of the complete outfits have something that I don't like anyways.

 

Smuggler for example:

** find the " idea" chest piece ... watch for the right price and snag it off of the GTN. (I'm not blowing 1 - 2 K in CC to buy an outfit.

** I use the "legs" off of one outfit ...

** Finding the right boots can be a challenge sometimes. But there again ... you might be surprised what a person can put together for the right cosmetic appearance.

 

Making the move to allow a player a separate "look" from the gear with the stats actually helped everyone (when it gets right down to it).

That was already achieved by orange gear and putting set bonuses on armorings. With regards to collections I do use pieces on several characters. To have to wait for all of those pieces until they are the right price on the GTN would drive me insane. That's why I get some armor sets in collections unlocked for account. That way I can use them more freely. It costs me though but that's how this game rolls.

I have always been "tight" with how I spend credits .. for cosmetic appearance of my characters or on decos for my strongholds !

 

IF BW was depending upon folks like me to keep the lights on ... BAD idea ! They'd already gone broke by now!

Or the might've found other ways to make money...like with more content and charging for that. I find that a much better deal.

Cosmetic stuff is always an option. Even the decorations (when it gets right down to this as well). "Back in the day" there were good drops. Not so much any more. There may be a few ... but with less and less new things to do ... there has also been less and less "rewards" in the form of decorations or other items (such as special gear) that has been made available.

Playing video games is also an option. SWTOR doesn't have a whole lot of variety in what you can do. I have all SHs unlocked but am bored with it now because I don't have enough variation in usable deco's. I keep coming to the same themes and that's why, even though I have enough decorations, I don't have enough useful ones to make different themes work.

IMO this is only partially true. 306 gear is available ... but IMO there is still the necessity to run FP's / Heroics ...etc regularly if you want to outfit your characters with good gear. HOWEVER this is a far cry from BiS Mods / and accessories (ear pieces etc) .

I don't count Hammer Station in VM harder content. People were spamming that FP to get the 306 gear. I didn't do that nor did I do it 24/7 but I got 10 or 11 characters (not sure of the exact number of alts I had at the time) in full 306 gear with the mods I wanted in just over two weeks. And that's all down to the mini-game of getting your first character to 306 gear by moving the best I had around (cause trinkets are also legacy bound now).

 

So I just did 5 VM FPs to get the weekly, equipping the highest rating gear after each boss fight and then when I got the weekly (which had another crate of gear) I sent the best I had to the next alt and did the weekly on that one, etc. I did play intensively the first two weeks, but as I said, nowhere near 24/7. Solo players are different, but I don't actually like FPs but I just put up with it because I realised it would be very fast and so I just bit the bullet.

 

The point is though that none of that was harder content. It was easy and fast and before boredom would set in, I was already done. And this way I was able to get BiS gear in easy FPs very quickly and the point of gaining gear doing progression raiding was undone. If I'd gone the road of doing Ops instead it would've taken me longer but it also would mean that I would already have BiS gear from SM. That makes the harder modes pointless again.

Additionally when I mention "unique gear" that should not be a problem. I AM a casual player. I understand the need for tougher places and higher levels of game experience. IMO this is just as important as PvP players getting a fair shake. Unfortunately it seems as though too many developers love to see the "pendulum" of presentation to either one extreme or the other. IMO the absence of common sense and providing "balance" to reach a WIDER audience manages to get thrown out the proverbial window almost without fail all too often.

This will always be a question mark for me. I get what you're saying but after having chased so many people out of the game, I wonder if BW really understands their "wider audience".

 

If you first take 80% of your player base out (launch), then recover somewhat and then you cause another exodus of players (4.0) and another because of Galactic Command (5.0) both of which were noticeable in server population and 5.0 leading to server merges down to 5 servers...like I said I really have to wonder what their wider audience is.

 

Only the staunchest of players and casual players have survived all of this. So yeah, by now their audience probably is casuals. I've turned into a casual or else I wouldn't be able to play this game anymore.