Combat Styles Discussion

[Darth-Obvious]

lol it's true. This forum repeats this assumption like it's a fact despite that no one from BW has ever confirmed it. Given what Jeff Nyman had previously said, I think there's a high chance BW screwed it up by themselves rather than it being evil EA holding back the purse strings.

 

They've talked about the cost and resources or economics involved with certain features before at the Cantina Tours or during interviews.

 

Do you really need a forum post to explain that they can't continue Class Stories in the way(s) people expect due to logistics/economics/resources?

[Soljin]

They've talked about the cost and resources or economics involved with certain features before at the Cantina Tours or during interviews.

 

Do you really need a forum post to explain that they can't continue Class Stories in the way(s) people expect due to logistics/economics/resources?

 

You are the one I was thinking of actually...Funny that you responded.

 

If you are such a defender why don't you go ahead and provide the cost analysis Bioware used to come to these conclusions that we only afford them cut rate versions of game design and then modify the model to meet current revenue of the game and potential in the current Star Wars rich content environment already forecasted by Disney for the next few years...

 

Otherwise let Bioware respond next time.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Soljin

[Darth-Obvious]

You are the one I was thinking of actually...Funny that you responded.

 

Funny that you can't understand basic logistics, math, common perception, understand what's common knowledge, already been stated, etc.

 

If you are such a defender

 

Me understanding how and why something is the way it is doesn't mean I agree with it or am defending it just means I understand it.

 

People like you will whine and complain endlessly about things and people who know better than you especially when the explanation results in you not selfishly getting the exact thing you want.

 

Also if the game isn't providing what you want and they're constantly disappointing you perhaps it's not the best idea to keep subbing to it and enabling it.

 

why don't you go ahead and provide the cost analysis Bioware used to come to these conclusions

 

So Bioware stating at a Cantina Tour that they can't continue Class Stories means you need to an economic break down of why that is? Good lord.

 

You'd think after 10 years of the game being the way it is that you might have figured out something by now about how they operate but I guess not.

 

that we only afford them cut rate versions of game design and then modify the model to meet current revenue of the game and potential in the current Star Wars rich content environment already forecasted by Disney for the next few years...

 

Yeah I can see how EA would want to double down on SWTOR the way Square did with FF14 and Bethesda did with ESO what with Star Wars not being an IP they own. Makes total sense right and doesn't at all explain a big part of the reason why EA is so hesitant to do more with SWTOR.

 

Why is it that when EA does sizzle reels of their SW products or talk up their upcoming SW ventures that SWTOR tends to get left out of those things do you think?

 

Otherwise let Bioware respond next time.

 

That wouldn't be enough for you. Bioware could say "we're not able to do that." then you'd be like "Provide me with the exact metircs and cost analysis" of why you can't do that. The answer will never be good enough for you because it ultimately always end up resulting in you not getting what you want.

 

I'm not discussing Darth-Obvious I'm discussing Bioware and SWToR.

 

Except you specifically responded to me, said I'm the one you were thinking of, and are going on about me, but yeah you're totally not talking about me

Edited August 14, 2021 by Darth-Obvious

[Soljin]

Funny that you can't understand basic logistics, math, common perception, understand what's common knowledge, already been stated, etc.

 

 

 

Me understanding how and why something is the way it is doesn't mean I agree with it or am defending it just means I understand it.

 

People like you will whine and complain endlessly about things and people who know better than you especially when the explanation results in you not selfishly getting the exact thing you want.

 

Also if the game isn't providing what you want and they're constantly disappointing you perhaps it's not the best idea to keep subbing to it and enabling it.

 

 

 

So Bioware stating at a Cantina Tour that they can't continue Class Stories means you need to an economic break down of why that is? Good lord.

 

You'd think after 10 years of the game being the way it is that you might have figured out something by now about how they operate but I guess not.

 

 

 

Yeah I can see how EA would want to double down on SWTOR the way Square did with FF14 and Bethesda did with ESO what with Star Wars not being an IP they own. Makes total sense right and doesn't at all explain a big part of the reason why EA is so hesitant to do more with SWTOR.

 

Why is it that when EA does sizzle reels of their SW products or talk up their upcoming SW ventures that SWTOR tends to get left out of those things do you think?

 

 

 

That wouldn't be enough for you. Bioware could say "we're not able to do that." then you'd be like "Provide me with the exact metircs and cost analysis" of why you can't do that. The answer will never be good enough for you because it ultimately always end up resulting in you not getting what you want.

 

 

 

Except you specifically responded to me, said I'm the one you were thinking of, and are going on about me, but yeah you're totally not talking about me

 

I said discussing as in topic but take it how you will... I did remove the statement realizing it would inevitably detract form the main discussion...as it did because you responded rather quickly and of course wanted to keep it personal.

 

What I want is for Bioware to invest time and resources into SWToR to improve it to a competitive level to the average MMO...If you disagree with that concept then yes I am greedy and selfish clearly.

 

I want this game to be better and improve to become a rival of other MMO(s) hence I want it to thrive and have longevity and I'm not sure what world we are in where that's a bad thing but here we are.

 

I really don't understand your goal in this other than liking to argue arbitrarily...but once again you go right ahead its an open forum.

[Darth-Obvious]

I said discussing as in topic but take it how you will... I did remove the statement realizing it would inevitably detract form the main discussion...as it did because you responded rather quickly and of course wanted to keep it personal.

 

Says the guy who made it personal in the first place.

 

What I want is for Bioware to invest time and resources into SWToR to improve it to a competitive level to the average MMO...

 

I want them to do that too but after thinking about it for a second it becomes obvious why EA doesn't do what Square did with FF14 or Bethesda did with ESO. EA doesn't own the SW IP. It's not part of their brand the way FF and ES are to Square and Bethesda.

 

Also the "Average MMO"? You don't seem to realize/understand that games like WoW, FF14, and ESO aren't average in the MMO landscape.

 

Take a look at the entirety of the MMO landscape with MMOs that are still active/playable like Everquest, Champions Online, Age of Conan, etc, and it becomes quite obvious that MMOs like WoW, FF14, and ESO are few and far between. Hardly the average.

 

I want this game to be better and improve to become a rival of other MMO(s)

 

Okay then all you gotta do is explain to EA why they should dump another 100 million dollars into a game that already spent 100-300 million on developing, that uses an IP they don't own, on a game that is a decade old, and at the end of the day would be a huge unnecessary risk that they don't need to take when the game is still currently making them money.

 

THAT^ is why SWTOR isn't what you want it to be. At the end of the day it's basically going to be impossible to convince EA to double down on it. I really wish that wasn't the case but I can't see how anyone could convince EA to do so at this point.

 

hence I want it to thrive and have longevity and I'm not sure what world we are in where that's a bad thing but here we are.

 

It's not a bad thing, you're just trying to sound sympathetic now.

 

I really don't understand your goal

 

And how is it that you think or believe you're accomplishing your goal? Is it by making things personal with me? Not listening to people who might know what they're talking about? Needing Bioware to answer everything you ask of them? How exactly are you getting SWTOR to be game you want it to be?

Edited August 14, 2021 by Darth-Obvious

[Soljin]

Says the guy who made it personal in the first place.

 

 

 

I want them to do that too but after thinking about it for a second it becomes obvious why EA doesn't do what Square did with FF14 or Bethesda did with ESO. EA doesn't own the SW IP. It's not part of their brand the way FF and ES are to Square and Bethesda.

 

Also the "Average MMO"? You don't seem to realize/understand that games like WoW, FF14, and ESO aren't average in the MMO landscape.

 

Take a look at the entirety of the MMO landscape with MMOs that are still active/playable like Everquest, Champions Online, Age of Conan, etc, and it becomes quite obvious that MMOs like WoW, FF14, and ESO are few and far between. Hardly the average.

 

 

 

Okay then all you gotta do is explain to EA why they should dump another 100 million dollars into a game that already spent 100-300 million on developing, that uses an IP they don't own, on a game that is a decade old, and at the end of the day would be a huge unnecessary risk that they don't need to take when the game is still currently making them money.

 

THAT^ is why SWTOR isn't what you want it to be. At the end of the day it's basically going to be impossible to convince EA to double down on it. I really wish that wasn't the case but I can't see how anyone could convince EA to do so at this point.

 

 

 

It's not a bad thing, you're just trying to sound sympathetic now.

 

 

 

And how is it that you think or believe you're accomplishing your goal? Is it by making things personal with me? Not listening to people who might know what they're talking about? Needing Bioware to answer everything you ask of them? How exactly are you getting SWTOR to be game you want it to be?

 

I think at this point our conversation has reached a point of stale and it keeps swerving off the road towards a conversation that I take no pleasure or insight from...so you win, enjoy.

[RJWidowMaker]

A major part of Onslaught is that they call you by your old title afterwards, if you so choose. So um, pretty recently.

 

Strange that you did not know that given how authoritatively you are talking about the expansions.

 

Just came back to the game when hearing about the expansion, hadn't played onslaught. Just beat the final mission a couple weeks ago but got swept up into raiding with the guild. Completely forgot about that part you mentioned.

 

Next time you could easily let someone know something without being a giant ***** about it.

[Tsillah]

You are the one I was thinking of actually...Funny that you responded.

I'd say next time you have someone specific in mind, don't hide behind generalizations. It's more honest that way.

 

If you are such a defender why don't you go ahead and provide the cost analysis Bioware used to come to these conclusions that we only afford them cut rate versions of game design and then modify the model to meet current revenue of the game and potential in the current Star Wars rich content environment already forecasted by Disney for the next few years...

 

Otherwise let Bioware respond next time.

He's not a defender, but he does feel he understands why they don't or won't do it. That's something entirely different. I also run into this where I say I understand something and then someone else will accuse me of defending BW. Understanding =/= agreeing. It really isn't the same. His view is just that it's not realistic to expect BW to do class stories because of the resources that are assigned to SWTOR.

 

I will say that they could choose to make more resources available, but they won't. Why not? Because the cost vs revenue picture is fine for them and that's because we've swallowed getting small expansions and still spend money on it. So that's what will continue to be the case.

 

And some might say vote with your wallet but I think that that would mean the end of SWTOR. They're not going to save this game. So it'll just continue on for a few more years and how many years really depends on our spending. That's how I see it.

[SavantDreadtech]

Personally I think it's still a mistake that will get old fast. However BW have said that the changes are optional, so guess for me it will have zero impact, as I will just keep my characters as they are now.

 

Best wishes to the players that are looking forward to this, and hope it turns out to be what you wanted.

[RJWidowMaker]

Personally I think it's still a mistake that will get old fast. However BW have said that the changes are optional, so guess for me it will have zero impact, as I will just keep my characters as they are now.

 

Best wishes to the players that are looking forward to this, and hope it turns out to be what you wanted.

 

When did they say you could dodge the changes for 7.0?

[Darth-Obvious]

He's not a defender, but he does feel he understands why they don't or won't do it. That's something entirely different. I also run into this where I say I understand something and then someone else will accuse me of defending BW. Understanding =/= agreeing. It really isn't the same. His view is just that it's not realistic to expect BW to do class stories because of the resources that are assigned to SWTOR.

 

I also want to point out that yes, they probably could do Combat Styles the way people want but at the cost of not getting anything else. As in 7.0 wouldn't be able to have all the features it currently has if Combat Styles were the way people wanted. They'd need to pool a large amount of resources on one single feature as opposed to several.

 

Eric talked about something similar to this in regards to a Weapon Designer feature (like that of Outfit Designer) saying that they (Bioware) know what it takes to add such a feature (UI, art, scripting, etc) and that it would require a number of team members to focus on adding that feature and that feature only and that once they started down that path they couldn't deviate from it.

 

In other words those team members would need to be working on Weapon Designer full time and couldn't be pulled off it to work on other elements of the game and their attention would need to be focused solely on it as opposed to several other features which is the way they typically do things and that's why we've yet to see a Weapon Designer still after all this time.

 

And some might say vote with your wallet but I think that that would mean the end of SWTOR. They're not going to save this game. So it'll just continue on for a few more years and how many years really depends on our spending. That's how I see it.

 

Yeah post-launch or since Free To Play rather the game has basically continued down the same path smaller updates, longer times between updates, etc, which is fairly analogous to many other MMOs out there just not the ones that are doing well which tend to the ones anyone looks at or references but if you look at the frequency of updates or quality of updates of mid-tier or low tier MMOs you can see that they follow a similar pattern to that of SWTOR.

 

Where SWTOR differs is that it was designed as a high-end MMO and meant to continue like one and there was the expectation for it especially given the game's production values but as it is the game is continuing down the same path as many other MMOs out there that aren't super popular and people don't get/understand that given that the game is SW and looks expensive. When someone looks at Everquest or Star Trek Online or whatever they don't have the same expectations from those games as they do something like SWTOR because by comparison they look and/or feel cheap. Unfortunately SWTOR went with a more over the top level of production value(s) compared to most MMOs and is now sadly paying a price for that or has been ever since the game wasn't the WoW like success that EA wanted it to be.

[Darth-Obvious]

Personally I think it's still a mistake that will get old fast. However BW have said that the changes are optional, so guess for me it will have zero impact, as I will just keep my characters as they are now.

 

Best wishes to the players that are looking forward to this, and hope it turns out to be what you wanted.

 

If you're a Lightning Sorcerer you'll still be able to continue on being a Lightning Sorcerer however you'll still have to deal with the changes 7.0 is making to combat like the removal or combination of certain abilities.

 

When 7.0 launches it's unlikely any class will seem or feel like they once did. The overall framework will no doubt be the same but you're gonna have to learn new rotations with every class, which I know is common for updates but this will be the biggest change combat has seen in a while.

[Soljin]

I'd say next time you have someone specific in mind, don't hide behind generalizations. It's more honest that way.

 

He's not a defender, but he does feel he understands why they don't or won't do it. That's something entirely different. I also run into this where I say I understand something and then someone else will accuse me of defending BW. Understanding =/= agreeing. It really isn't the same. His view is just that it's not realistic to expect BW to do class stories because of the resources that are assigned to SWTOR.

 

I will say that they could choose to make more resources available, but they won't. Why not? Because the cost vs revenue picture is fine for them and that's because we've swallowed getting small expansions and still spend money on it. So that's what will continue to be the case.

 

And some might say vote with your wallet but I think that that would mean the end of SWTOR. They're not going to save this game. So it'll just continue on for a few more years and how many years really depends on our spending. That's how I see it.

 

Wasn't attempting to hide anything I just didn't feel the need to be specific at the time of writing the initial post...

 

I also understand why they don't choose to execute what I perceive as good moves for the game... I just don't agree with Bioware's lack of care for this game and the Star Wars IP.

 

I think the true misunderstanding is that the position of accepting Bioware's lack of care and inaction needs to be accepted by me or anyone else as a reality with no alternate future...Because its not until hindsight confirms it is.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Soljin

[SithKoriandr]

The story you pick hasn't had anything to do with character identity for several expansions now. When was the last time an NPC called your Consular, Agent or Trooper anything other than Commander past level 50 content?

 

There isn't enough story content that defines your character's class or origin to justify the "My class but with a different weapon" line being pushed. I would agree if you didn't become the Commander for eternity after the first 50 levels. I do get that there are people that see RP value but this feature does almost nothing different that you don't already achieve with an out of class style outfit.

 

I think it is awesome as a feature that allows us to not have to repeat stories we aren't into just because we want to make another alt. The feature does have value. But the way BW puts such heavy emphasis on the weapon aspect doesn't sit right with me.

 

Yes, a lot of the choices are basically the same said with a different VA. But that's still the VA in that situation.

 

They really should've done the varied combat styles from the beginning, and I get the feeling the only reason people are against the idea, is they're not just opening up Gunslinger/Scoundrel (for example) to the Agent (both basically the same combat Agent already has, but with different weapon/animations) but they're altering how the spec is handled/played and some may not like the changes there.

 

I didn't like when they got rid of my Shadow's Project :/

[Darth-Obvious]

I also understand why they don't choose to execute what I perceive as good moves for the game... I just don't agree with Bioware's lack of care for this game and the Star Wars IP.

 

Really, it's their lack of care?

 

If they can't accomplish something the way people want them to because they lets say spread themselves too thin over several aspects an expansion instead of pooling all their resources into a single feature that's beacuse they don't care about the game or the IP? Seriously?

 

Just because you're not getting exactly the thing you want out of SWTOR or feel that the updates are lackluster or whatever doesn't mean the devs don't care. You just tell yourself that because that's what's easiest to do in order to validate yourself and your views.

 

I think the true misunderstanding is that the position of accepting Bioware's lack of care and inaction needs to be accepted by me or anyone else as a reality with no alternate future...Because its not until hindsight confirms it is.

 

Yeah because it's not like there's any hindsight of nearly a decades worth of updates to help paint a picture of exactly what this game is right? It's not like in the past 10 years we've gotten any kind of hindsight that major updates are few and far between or that nothing has really continued on the same scope and scale of the original game or anything like that huh? There's absolutely nothing anyone can see or learn from these past 10 years is there? We'll only know for certain once the game ends or Bioware confirms it right?

[Soljin]

Really, it's their lack of care?

 

If they can't accomplish something the way people want them to because they lets say spread themselves too thin over several aspects an expansion instead of pooling all their resources into a single feature that's beacuse they don't care about the game or the IP? Seriously?

 

Just because you're not getting exactly the thing you want out of SWTOR or feel that the updates are lackluster or whatever doesn't mean the devs don't care. You just tell yourself that because that's what's easiest to do in order to validate yourself and your views.

 

 

 

Yeah because it's not like there's any hindsight of nearly a decades worth of updates to help paint a picture of exactly what this game is right? It's not like in the past 10 years we've gotten any kind of hindsight that major updates are few and far between or that nothing has really continued on the same scope and scale of the original game or anything like that huh? There's absolutely nothing anyone can see or learn from these past 10 years is there? We'll only know for certain once the game ends or Bioware confirms it right?

 

Man you are needy...My comment about hindsight was akin to "it's not over until it's over". Get a grip man and move on...

[Ardrossan]

Just came back to the game when hearing about the expansion, hadn't played onslaught. Just beat the final mission a couple weeks ago but got swept up into raiding with the guild. Completely forgot about that part you mentioned.

 

Next time you could easily let someone know something without being a giant ***** about it.

 

You were complaining about something that the devs implemented more than 2 years ago. Which suggests that your entire rant was based on nothing at all. So, I did in fact have to be a giant *********** about it. Next time you could easily say Thank you king, may I have another.

 

They've talked about the cost and resources or economics involved with certain features before at the Cantina Tours or during interviews.

 

Do you really need a forum post to explain that they can't continue Class Stories in the way(s) people expect due to logistics/economics/resources?

 

I can see why Soijin likes you so much. I'm going to bypass the undoubtedly stirring debate repartee you have lined up and just answer your rhetorical question: Yes, I do need a forum post, not a bunch of assumptions from armchair experts [see above].

Edited August 15, 2021 by Ardrossan

[Darth-Obvious]

Man you are needy...My comment about hindsight was akin to "it's not over until it's over".

 

and I addressed exactly that here...

 

Yeah because it's not like there's any hindsight of nearly a decades worth of updates to help paint a picture of exactly what this game is right? It's not like in the past 10 years we've gotten any kind of hindsight that major updates are few and far between or that nothing has really continued on the same scope and scale of the original game or anything like that huh? There's absolutely nothing anyone can see or learn from these past 10 years is there? We'll only know for certain once the game ends or Bioware confirms it right?

 

You just want to ignore the past 10 years of hindsight because it hurts or invalidates your argument.

 

Get a grip man and move on...

 

Says the guy who keeps talking about this and responding.

[Darth-Obvious]

Yes, I do need a forum post.

 

What a ridiculous notion.

 

So video footage, interviews, etc, all of sudden don't count. Only forum posts. What a convenient way for you to be able to ignore existing evidence knowing full well that the devs don't generally post or talk about these specific things on forums.

 

It's like saying/claiming that something can't be canon unless it appears in the game.

[Ardrossan]

What a ridiculous notion.

 

So video footage, interviews, etc, all of sudden don't count. Only forum posts. What a convenient way for you to be able to ignore existing evidence knowing full well that the devs don't generally post or talk about these specific things on forums.

 

It's like saying/claiming that something can't be canon unless it appears in the game.

 

I see you managed to slip in some witty debating language regardless. It must be crushing not to be able to write a sentence by sentence rebuttal with everyone you disagree with.

[Darth-Obvious]

I see you managed to slip in some witty debating language regardless. It must be crushing not to be able to write a sentence by sentence rebuttal with everyone you disagree with.

 

No, not at all. It was quite nice and easy to put an even bigger spotlight or focus on the ridiculous claims/statements you're making. All you're doing there is helping me out and not yourself.

[Tsillah]

Wasn't attempting to hide anything I just didn't feel the need to be specific at the time of writing the initial post...

 

I also understand why they don't choose to execute what I perceive as good moves for the game... I just don't agree with Bioware's lack of care for this game and the Star Wars IP.

 

I think the true misunderstanding is that the position of accepting Bioware's lack of care and inaction needs to be accepted by me or anyone else as a reality with no alternate future...Because its not until hindsight confirms it is.

Yeah that's the thing. At some point a player needs to accept that this is as good as it gets. I mean, I do still try to give criticism in the hopes that at least a little of it gets picked up, but after that I also just accept it. However, with 5.0 they went too far for me and I stopped playing for a couple of years. So there's that. I came back a few months before 6.0 and it's been ok since but I am bored again with the game. So I spend more time on the forum than in game lol.

 

Still I'll wait for 7.0 to come out and see the new content. If it's quick and then it's back to the same old boring stuff, then I'll take an extended break again. It's just that the extended breaks get longer and longer.

 

The lack of care...well look at what they did with their own IP Mass Effect. Andromeda was a bad launch and after patching it up it was a fairly good game, but nowhere near as good as the preceding trilogy. So you'd think they would go all out to salvage it and make it better, but no...they just patched it up and dropped it like a bomb. No dlc's or anything. That's where I saw the lack of care already.

 

And the legendary edition of the original trilogy sold more copies than EA had expected. That tells me that they need to look at their older games and look at those for inspiration instead of the "market trends". I mean Diablo 2 is coming out soon with their remastered version. Not sure if those sales are going to be as great as expected because of the scandals at Blizzard that came out recently, but D2 is still regarded as the best of the series.

 

Game companies just need to stop trying to "innovate" beyond what made them successful in the first place. If you discovered the wheel why would you try to make a square one. It doesn't roll.

 

But EA should've done things differently when the game sunk soon after release. They should've said, ok, this didn't go well but it's SW so we're going to invest more into to make it work. Square Enix did that with FFXIV, but EA failed to do it with SWTOR. However, that doesn't make BW blameless in the matter. The resources that they did get to assign to it have been grossly misused. A lot of "innovative" thinking was just downright unnecessary and it backfired on them many times. You'd think they'd learn from those mistakes but BW has had the tendency to put on blinders and they love to spend way too much time in pre-production rather than actually building their games.

 

And then they have the arrogance coming with it based on their old successes that they then hate because players love them and they want more of it. But they wanted to do something different, something new, something better. Well, that was Anthem and it sunk like a mother.

 

That's what pisses me off more than anything. They had 3 studios. One in Edmonton, one in Austin and one in Montreal. They basically put that studio in Montreal together with new people and shoved off ME: Andromeda to them and left them to their own devices cause Edmonton was tired of doing ME so they could fully focus on Anthem.

 

Well Anthem became BW's biggest failure and embarrassment, but they still won't admit that. They really need to get in their heads that they are dependent on their customers. They need to make what customers love or they will forever lose their goodwill and they've used up a lot of that.

 

The next two games that will come out over the next few years will be telling for me. DA4 and the next ME game. I'm not convinced they'll do a good job at them and that's because they messed up majorly with the last few games and the Frostbite engine hasn't been good for their games either. The interface and menu structure is terrible in all of those games. DA:I was the first one I believe. It's a pretty good game but again the interface and menu structure is terrible in there. DA:O had a better one. And don't get me started on the Anthem one. Even in ME:Andromeda the crafting menu was horrible, like it was made by an intern with a bad attitude. Anyways you get my point.

 

TLDR; So yeah, to make it short BW has had a problem with taking care of their games, even their own IPs in recent years and I'm not so sure if that'll change in the future.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Tsillah

[Darth-Obvious]

Still I'll wait for 7.0 to come out and see the new content. If it's quick and then it's back to the same old boring stuff, then I'll take an extended break again. It's just that the extended breaks get longer and longer.

 

Yeah SWTOR more than any other MMO for better and worse is the easiest to take a break from and come back to because it doesn't change that significantly and the major updates are so few and far between that it's easy to just resub for a month, play all the new content, then unsub until the next big update. That's what SWTOR, and a number of other games, have become at this point and it's been that way for years now.

 

And the legendary edition of the original trilogy sold more copies than EA had expected. That tells me that they need to look at their older games and look at those for inspiration instead of the "market trends". I mean Diablo 2 is coming out soon with their remastered version. Not sure if those sales are going to be as great as expected because of the scandals at Blizzard that came out recently, but D2 is still regarded as the best of the series.

 

I imagine we'll see a Dragon Age Collection remaster as a result. I mean that's kind of their only other option. Jade Empire wasn't successful enough for them to go back to, not to mention it was always a personal project of the doctors so once they were gone nobody was really interested in pursuing more Jade Empire.

 

There is a KOTOR remake in the works but Bioware isn't involved and reports suggest that it's more of a remake in the vein of Resident Evil 2 and Final Fantasy VII where it's not just a nicer looking version of the same game but a top to bottom overhaul. Not really surprising. The old systems of KOTOR most likely aren't appealing to the audience they're targeting now not to mention if it's a full-on remake Disney will probably want it to be part of the current canon which means they're gonna have to make a bunch of changes regardless and probably ditch branching or alternate story paths as a result unless they use some kind of unreliable narrator framing device.

 

But EA should've done things differently when the game sunk soon after release. They should've said, ok, this didn't go well but it's SW so we're going to invest more into to make it work. Square Enix did that with FFXIV, but EA failed to do it with SWTOR. However, that doesn't make BW blameless in the matter. The resources that they did get to assign to it have been grossly misused. A lot of "innovative" thinking was just downright unnecessary and it backfired on them many times. You'd think they'd learn from those mistakes but BW has had the tendency to put on blinders and they love to spend way too much time in pre-production rather than actually building their games.

 

4.0 and 5.0 felt like the last time the game got any kind of big push and they unfortunately made so many bad choices. The way they rolled out the story, the story itself, how companions were handled, the fact that it was a single story spread across two expansions, endless corridors of Skytroopers, etc, etc. It was something that obviously a lot of resources were devoted to but in the end the execution of it all pretty much across the board wasn't great. I get or understand the logistics and reasons why they separated us from our companions, why it was a singular storyline, etc, but the execution of those things were all handled badly.

 

It really felt like Chapters 1-3 were SWTOR 1. Chapters 3 & 4 were post-release content or DLC for SWTOR 1 while Chapters 5 & 6 (KOTFE/KOTET) were SWTOR 2 and should've been a different game where you were playing a different character similar to KOTOR1 to KOTOR2. It feels like a different game and story in a lot of ways rather than an extension of what was already there.

 

The next two games that will come out over the next few years will be telling for me. DA4 and the next ME game. I'm not convinced they'll do a good job at them and that's because they messed up majorly with the last few games and the Frostbite engine hasn't been good for their games either. The interface and menu structure is terrible in all of those games. DA:I was the first one I believe. It's a pretty good game but again the interface and menu structure is terrible in there. DA:O had a better one. And don't get me started on the Anthem one. Even in ME:Andromeda the crafting menu was horrible, like it was made by an intern with a bad attitude. Anyways you get my point.

 

Yeah, I'm worried about DA4. That game has started over development multiple times which is never a good sign and we still know basically nothing about it which makes it hard to get excited about.

[OlBuzzard]

Yeah that's the thing. At some point a player needs to accept that this is as good as it gets. I mean, I do still try to give criticism in the hopes that at least a little of it gets picked up, but after that I also just accept it. However, with 5.0 they went too far for me and I stopped playing for a couple of years. So there's that. I came back a few months before 6.0 and it's been ok since but I am bored again with the game. So I spend more time on the forum than in game lol.

 

Still I'll wait for 7.0 to come out and see the new content. If it's quick and then it's back to the same old boring stuff, then I'll take an extended break again. It's just that the extended breaks get longer and longer.

 

The lack of care...well look at what they did with their own IP Mass Effect. Andromeda was a bad launch and after patching it up it was a fairly good game, but nowhere near as good as the preceding trilogy. So you'd think they would go all out to salvage it and make it better, but no...they just patched it up and dropped it like a bomb. No dlc's or anything. That's where I saw the lack of care already.

 

And the legendary edition of the original trilogy sold more copies than EA had expected. That tells me that they need to look at their older games and look at those for inspiration instead of the "market trends". I mean Diablo 2 is coming out soon with their remastered version. Not sure if those sales are going to be as great as expected because of the scandals at Blizzard that came out recently, but D2 is still regarded as the best of the series.

 

Game companies just need to stop trying to "innovate" beyond what made them successful in the first place. If you discovered the wheel why would you try to make a square one. It doesn't roll.

 

But EA should've done things differently when the game sunk soon after release. They should've said, ok, this didn't go well but it's SW so we're going to invest more into to make it work. Square Enix did that with FFXIV, but EA failed to do it with SWTOR. However, that doesn't make BW blameless in the matter. The resources that they did get to assign to it have been grossly misused. A lot of "innovative" thinking was just downright unnecessary and it backfired on them many times. You'd think they'd learn from those mistakes but BW has had the tendency to put on blinders and they love to spend way too much time in pre-production rather than actually building their games.

 

And then they have the arrogance coming with it based on their old successes that they then hate because players love them and they want more of it. But they wanted to do something different, something new, something better. Well, that was Anthem and it sunk like a mother.

 

That's what pisses me off more than anything. They had 3 studios. One in Edmonton, one in Austin and one in Montreal. They basically put that studio in Montreal together with new people and shoved off ME: Andromeda to them and left them to their own devices cause Edmonton was tired of doing ME so they could fully focus on Anthem.

 

Well Anthem became BW's biggest failure and embarrassment, but they still won't admit that. They really need to get in their heads that they are dependent on their customers. They need to make what customers love or they will forever lose their goodwill and they've used up a lot of that.

 

The next two games that will come out over the next few years will be telling for me. DA4 and the next ME game. I'm not convinced they'll do a good job at them and that's because they messed up majorly with the last few games and the Frostbite engine hasn't been good for their games either. The interface and menu structure is terrible in all of those games. DA:I was the first one I believe. It's a pretty good game but again the interface and menu structure is terrible in there. DA:O had a better one. And don't get me started on the Anthem one. Even in ME:Andromeda the crafting menu was horrible, like it was made by an intern with a bad attitude. Anyways you get my point.

 

TLDR; So yeah, to make it short BW has had a problem with taking care of their games, even their own IPs in recent years and I'm not so sure if that'll change in the future.

 

A lot of truth in here !! As usual I don't agree with everything ... but you're pretty much on track for the overall insight of "game development". ( I hope that makes sense).

 

When that applies to SWTOR IMO there are some areas that have made the game unique and fun to play in it's own right. Some of those are:

** VA cinematic stories that were woven throughout the game experience.

** Interactive companions

** Strongholds (not entirely unique .. but still something that has proven to be successful) ... Now seem to be plagued with bugs that obviously wont be resolved.

** Individual stories for the classes. I'm not going to debate the merit of 8 class stories that we will never see again. However, that said: There are also some intangible assets gained by reimplementing a multiple distinctive separation of view points since there are at least two major factions (and to many players a 3rd ) with conflicting objectives throughout the entire series of SWTOR. Returning to a functional distinctiveness in that regard IMO is a must.

** Other similar items which helped define the game.

 

We have seen several times where the ALL NEW EXCITING game mechanics nearly killed the game. The stories will change from time to time. I personally get that. Some I like ... many (even of the original vanilla stories) I do not. At least the current gearing system is better than what we had.

 

However .. back on to what you are discussion with the so called latest and greatest approach. Hollywood has the same problem when a new writer / director comes on board. NOT GOING TO DO WHAT WE DID THE LAST TIME approach seems to be the requirement in their industry.

 

UGH !!

 

What works .. what people like .. and success seem to be ignored and calmly thrown out the door of reason as much without thought as taking a breath.

 

Out of all of the pages that has been written about 7.0 (some good ... others simply demanding that their approach to the future of the games mechanics is right regardless ) ...

 

What on earth happened to simply taking what has worked for the game .. taking that to the next level ADDING more stuff that people LIKE and THEN worry about new game mechanics.

 

Yes .. some of it was inevitable. I get that !! Things change ... I get that too! BUT WHY in the name of common sense do that at the cost of everything else. WHY ?? WHY kill off everything else in order to prove a point.

 

[/scratches head] ... Sorry this approach just does NOT make any sense to me !!!

 

note: edited ... and I'll probably look over again later this AM.

Edited August 15, 2021 by OlBuzzard

[Tsillah]

A lot of truth in here !! As usual I don't agree with everything ... but you're pretty much on track for the overall insight of "game development". ( I hope that makes sense).

It does make sense

When that applies to SWTOR IMO there are some areas that have made the game unique and fun to play in it's own right. Some of those are:

** Interactive companions

** Strongholds (not entirely unique .. but still something that has proven to be successful)

** Individual stories for the classes. I'm not going to debate the merit of 8 class stories that we will never see again. However, that said: There are also some intangible assets gained by reimplementing a multiple distinctive separation of view points since there are at least two major factions (and to many players a 3rd ) with conflicting objectives throughout the entire series of SWTOR. Returning to a functional distinctiveness in that regard IMO is a must.

** Other similar items which helped define the game.

Now, I may have given you the impression that everything they did was bad, but that's not the case. However, there is the matter of how they implemented it still.

Mind you I do distinguish from the game at launch and what came after. Class stories and Interactive companions were there from the start. The starting point is the baseline, but what you do next is supposedly based on learnings and that is where it goes wrong a lot. And for class stories and interactive companions what came after was bad news. So what makes SWTOR unique, they abandoned.

 

Now what they also did wrong with the continued story line is that they based it around one class: the Jedi Knight as of 4.0 and that was just a bad fit for other classes. Now 2.0 is not part of the main story but 3.0 still made sense to a much larger extent for all classes and I wish they would've at least kept going that way.

 

Strongholds was a new addition and a successful one but how it was implemented leaves a lot to be desired and I gave up on it, because boredom has set in. That's saying a lot because I spent MANY hours in there when the rest of the game was boring me. But the inflexibility and trickle release of new decorations ESPECIALLY in game, just makes me do the same 3-4 themes in all of them. They really need to make some fundamental changes like making generic items in many colors and for the love of anything please let us get a SH that isn't orange inside. Coruscant, Nar Shaddaa, Alderaan , Rishi are orange at least on the inside. In fact I still hope for a Hoth one because it'll be white and then I can decide the color scheme. So yeah.

 

We have seen several times where the ALL NEW EXCITING game mechanics nearly killed the game. The stories will change from time to time. I personally get that. Some I like ... many (even of the original vanilla stories) I do not. At least the current gearing system is better than what we had.

Well, that is a matter of opinion. I really hated the gear system of 5.0 and also of 6.0 because of different reasons. Neither was an improvement for me in any way. It was just a matter of giving in to a demographic of people that were jealous of the raiders over gear that they didn't even need for the content they were doing.

However .. back on to what you are discussion with the so called latest and greatest approach. Hollywood has the same problem when a new writer / director comes on board. NOT GOING TO DO WHAT WE DID THE LAST TIME approach seems to be the requirement in their industry.

Well for me the current state of Hollywood is that they're leaning on successes of the past and do something different, mostly exaggeratedly woke. So for example there were already 2 versions of Charlie's Angels but a third came out because even the second one wasn't woke enough. There is great irony in this approach if you think about it. To use the name of something they consider wrong to garner success. But it doesn't work for them. Movie after movie fails. The second Ghost Busters movie was, well, a bust. But more to the point, they can't write an original story for **** anymore it seems. Why? Because it's all about risk management so they can maximize profit.

 

The entertainment industry as a whole suffers from this btw. Whether it's music, movies, games, whatever... it's all become institutionalized. The rules that need to be followed to be successful before you put whatever it is to the public are more important than the content. They took the content for granted and started creating more and more ****. Now, luckily we still get good stuff but only occasionally. And the fact that older games remastered are so successful is a testament to that. And the movies? Yep, there is a big market for remasters of old movies on DVD, Blu ray and 4K. Music? Vinyl is in again and albums get remastered as well.

 

Just saying that companies need to remember what their roots are and get back to that.