Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Isende]

I retract my statement. You are correct, in an ideal environment skill queuing is not needed at all.

 

On another note:

 

These devs really need to come out and do some damage control. They need to really touch on these major issues. They need to tell us that they understand what we're saying, and tell us what they plan to do about it. Truthfully, I am having fun with the game, but just like I have these forums open, I also have the EVE online forums open, because I am considering going back there instead. I know that no company is perfect, but when your forums are full of real criticisms, something needs to be done. I know that whenever I am interested in playing a new game, first thing I do is look at the general forum to see player consensus. I would bet money that many many people are coming in here, seeing all this negativity with no adequate response and running for the hills.

 

this is my two-cents worth: i think they were amazed that the features they were so proud of (the stories, the companions, the crafting) were so overshadowed by this facet of gameplay. i REALLY don't think they expected this, even though they heard constant rumbles about it in beta. i absolutely believe that they've been in a bit of a state of "***" since this came to light, and they've recognized enough to have posted a response in the second thread saying, ok, yeah, we hear you.

 

from what i've seen so far of their (lack of) customer service, that's actually quite a big step. folk have pointed out throughout the duration of this thread, in its entirety, that giving any kind of an eta is like slashing your own wrists. they simply can't. first of all, is the engine the problem? the code? the animation? if it's the engine, then how do they get it fixed (and i'm betting at least a portion of the problem exists on the engine). if it's the cods ... MASSIVE amounts of man-hours will be required to track down and change and test all the coding responsible for this. if it's an animation lock, i.e., order of precedence, that is STILL going to require massive amounts of man-hours.

 

here's my proposition: let's keep this thread open. we've gotten some bloody good responses from pro gamers, from game developers, and from customer support advocates. this can be a kind of "how NOT to" handle things for the next big mmo that decides to break ground. keep the criticism constructive. we've got some smart minds in here; how much can we help assist with breaking down and defining the problem? and not least by any stretch, we need to keep advocating a good policy of customer service.

 

in other words? thank you, bioware, for your response in the previous thread. we know it's a huge issue, we know it's going to be a hard one for you to first digest, then resolve how to answer. we're still here, and we'll keep on being here for a while, so don't forget us. and when you start getting inklings of what's going on ... well, yeah, a little comment here and there will go a long way.

[Unseenhands]

Been thinking about engine design and response for awhile (been a part of this thread since the original), especially in regards to Bioware's game designs. Because to compare them to WoW and Blizzard, while important in a competition discussion, is less relevant to deciding if Bioware themselves can see the problem and have a way to fix it.

 

I may get flamed about this, but hear me out, please:

 

Dragon Age 2 was far superior to Dragon Age:Origins in TERMS OF ABILITY DELAY AND CHARACTER RESPONSIVENESS.

 

Same with Mass Effect 2 over 1.

 

Now, you can debate whether or not they're as good as games as their precursor (fairly universally, DA2 is panned and ME2 is praised), but the combat system in DA2 is MUCH faster, more responsive, and flat out MORE FUN than DA:O.

 

Now, many people missed the strategy of "pause & play" mechanics that DA:O offered, but I remember (coming from WoW) DA:O feeling like watching my warrior awkwardly run into place and get position before slowly attacking felt wrong somehow. Slow.

 

DA2 fixed this. It was flat out fun to fight things. It felt like WoW, and still maintained the pause and play access, just on a much faster level.

 

Mass Effect 2 changed the pause and play rpg shooter play of the first by making a nearly seamless shooter, with Bioware story.

 

The scary thing is, though I thought BOTH of these were improvements over the first (and, implicitly, it seems Bioware thought that to a degree too, as they were the sequels) many other people hated seeing Bioware lose the somewhat slower approach that DA:O or ME1 offered. They didn't want to see the long line of NWN, Kotor (Not Jade Empire, which had fun combat too! and ME1 and DA:O reduced (in their minds) to the much faster (they said "button mashing") or third-person-shooter.

 

I guess I'm trying to say that if SWTOR had DA2's fast responsive combat, most in this thread would be happy. Feels like WoW, but Bioware style without the inherit argument WoW brings into the discussion.

 

Now, a lot of people might not mind, honestly if this game was TURN BASED like KOTOR. Or, similar to KOTOR, queue of 3 abilities and then watch. That's because they come from Bioware's history, not WoW, I'd imagine.

 

So it seems as if Bioware is in a bit of a philosophical place with their game design - DA2 and ME2 seems like the direction they'd want to go, but the reviews of DA2 may have put them back from that design concept. How to appease their base and also rein in an MMO crowd (commonly used to WoW) is a tough call.

 

All said, I think it appears that Bioware has the capability to do what we want (fast, responsive combat) though it remains to be seen if they deliver it.

[sclegane]

I don't post on forums much, but I wanted to support this thread and to actually say Thank You to xcore. Takes some time and guts to bring this up and to fight hard for this. Especially with something that is so hard to explain. I, for one, agree with you. I do think there is just something "off" that needs a little fix.

 

I also think time is something BW needs.

 

I have been following this thread and, more importantly, the threads before this one very closely. I think that most people "get it." I also think BW gets it. But I am no developer and I have no knowledge of how to "fix" this. I'm sure some of you might be brilliant and have the answer right now. But I bet you don't know exactly how it "works." Now you might, and that's awesome, but while I understand that people might have brought this up in beta, let's see what happens. Give it some time.

 

Time...."give it some time"...there is a new concept. Time is the one thing most of us don't want to give up, yet we will spend hrs upon hrs in front of a monitor starring at an avatar. Then the min something isn't "perfect" we file on to the forums for another 1/2 session of complaining and writing. This is not a shot at anybody here, but an example of how we all need to take a step back...realize they have responded, which is what you wanted. In the previous thread, all were asking for an answer...just somebody to come in and say "yes, we are paying attention. carry on." In not so many words, they said that. They don't have an answer. I'm sure they would LOVE to have a complete answer, but the facts are I'm sure they have to look at everything and compile all the information they can. Was it the answer you wanted? Of course not. Will it ever be? No. And you all know why. I shouldn't have to go into detail on why it is not a good idea to give out estimated dates.

 

Again, xcore, thanks for taking the time to put all this in thought. You did a great job. And don't answer the people that don't understand what's going on. You know, and about 100,000 views says some other people are with you as well.

 

For the folks who don't have this issue or don't see this issue...I understand this may be difficult but it is there. It's not easy to understand something like that. But understand this, the game will not change for the worse when this does, in fact, get changed. If you don't know what's going on, then you won't even know when the change takes place. So I would beg you to leave your comments out of this thread. If you have questions, by all means I am sure people here will talk. But please refrain from blasting other people because you feel there isn't a problem.

 

And to the other's who attack the people who can't see it....relax. xcore did all the hard work for you...people in this thread did all the hard work for you. If they can't see it after the explanations and examples given then skip over their comment. Think of it as a troll. Just let it pass.

 

Thanks again for everybody’s hard work on here. You all honestly lifted my spirits knowing other people were having the same issue.

 

Sorry for the wall. Take care

[Xcore]

in other words? thank you, bioware, for your response in the previous thread. we know it's a huge issue, we know it's going to be a hard one for you to first digest, then resolve how to answer. we're still here, and we'll keep on being here for a while, so don't forget us. and when you start getting inklings of what's going on ... well, yeah, a little comment here and there will go a long way.

 

I agree with everything you say and would like to place emphasis on this quote. There needs to be some "basic" communication on this subject for continued trust, I can't emphasize enough that "once the subscriptions start bleeding away" it snowballs into an exodus... once the exodus has happened, it doesn't really matter what you do thereafter, the game will forever be "tainted" in the minds of MMOers and it will never be able to reach the potential it once had (even if it becomes marginally successful).

 

My recommendation would be to drop by a post letting everyone know you're taking this serious once every few days until slowly a gameplan is developed. At which point you could share this gameplan and gauge the reaction to this gameplan.

 

 

Now, one thing I would "really" like to put forth as a recommendation:

 

Bring in some people 3-10 who are Hardcore MMO Gamers, serious people to evaluate the situation of fixes etc. I realize we're just the peasants paying to play the game and all but believe it or not, there are real people, adults here who "can" actually help constructively.

 

Remember, World of Warcraft Developers were Hardcore EQ Raiders -- This is not a coincidence. Get outside help from people who understand the problem, I am not trying to shamelessly plug myself but this is a serious belief I hold and suggestion I put forth.

 

Otherwise, I fear another "CU or NGE" response... dear god.

[Xcore]

Been thinking about engine design and response for awhile (been a part of this thread since the original), especially in regards to Bioware's game designs. Because to compare them to WoW and Blizzard, while important in a competition discussion, is less relevant to deciding if Bioware themselves can see the problem and have a way to fix it.

 

I may get flamed about this, but hear me out, please:

 

Dragon Age 2 was far superior to Dragon Age:Origins in TERMS OF ABILITY DELAY AND CHARACTER RESPONSIVENESS.

 

Same with Mass Effect 2 over 1.

 

Now, you can debate whether or not they're as good as games as their precursor (fairly universally, DA2 is panned and ME2 is praised), but the combat system in DA2 is MUCH faster, more responsive, and flat out MORE FUN than DA:O.

 

Well said, I cut of your entire post as it was long (well worth the read though!). I agree on all points and nice contrast to previous Bioware Projects. I agree of course DA:O to be superior to DA2 while still realizing that the Combat and Response was much tighter (by leaps and bounds) to DA:O.

[Zironic]

Well said, I cut of your entire post as it was long (well worth the read though!). I agree on all points and nice contrast to previous Bioware Projects. I agree of course DA:O to be superior to DA2 while still realizing that the Combat and Response was much tighter (by leaps and bounds) to DA:O.

 

I'd say that DA2 had vastly better combat then DA:O, the only issue was the way that had countless enemies re-spawn from all directions all the time to compensate for their high causality rate which irked anyone that wanted to use tactics.

 

Most complaints against DA2 tend to be more focused about the -EXTREME- amount of content reuse and generally lacking Story compared to DA:O.

[Xcore]

I don't post on forums much, but I wanted to support this thread and to actually say Thank You to xcore. Takes some time and guts to bring this up and to fight hard for this. Especially with something that is so hard to explain. I, for one, agree with you. I do think there is just something "off" that needs a little fix.

 

I also think time is something BW needs.

 

I have been following this thread and, more importantly, the threads before this one very closely. I think that most people "get it." I also think BW gets it. But I am no developer and I have no knowledge of how to "fix" this. I'm sure some of you might be brilliant and have the answer right now. But I bet you don't know exactly how it "works." Now you might, and that's awesome, but while I understand that people might have brought this up in beta, let's see what happens. Give it some time.

 

Time...."give it some time"...there is a new concept. Time is the one thing most of us don't want to give up, yet we will spend hrs upon hrs in front of a monitor starring at an avatar. Then the min something isn't "perfect" we file on to the forums for another 1/2 session of complaining and writing. This is not a shot at anybody here, but an example of how we all need to take a step back...realize they have responded, which is what you wanted. In the previous thread, all were asking for an answer...just somebody to come in and say "yes, we are paying attention. carry on." In not so many words, they said that. They don't have an answer. I'm sure they would LOVE to have a complete answer, but the facts are I'm sure they have to look at everything and compile all the information they can. Was it the answer you wanted? Of course not. Will it ever be? No. And you all know why. I shouldn't have to go into detail on why it is not a good idea to give out estimated dates.

 

Again, xcore, thanks for taking the time to put all this in thought. You did a great job. And don't answer the people that don't understand what's going on. You know, and about 100,000 views says some other people are with you as well.

 

For the folks who don't have this issue or don't see this issue...I understand this may be difficult but it is there. It's not easy to understand something like that. But understand this, the game will not change for the worse when this does, in fact, get changed. If you don't know what's going on, then you won't even know when the change takes place. So I would beg you to leave your comments out of this thread. If you have questions, by all means I am sure people here will talk. But please refrain from blasting other people because you feel there isn't a problem.

 

And to the other's who attack the people who can't see it....relax. xcore did all the hard work for you...people in this thread did all the hard work for you. If they can't see it after the explanations and examples given then skip over their comment. Think of it as a troll. Just let it pass.

 

Thanks again for everybody’s hard work on here. You all honestly lifted my spirits knowing other people were having the same issue.

 

Sorry for the wall. Take care

 

Great post and thank you for your kind words. I agree, Bioware needs time and this isn't easy and that is fine. However, Bioware also needs to continue acknowledging and reaffirming their stance on this issue.

 

They have acknowledged it yes, and its a bad time in the season for this to happen and so shortly after release BUT in 2-3 years we will all be thankful for these weeks and months (maybe?). So, I agree... lets see what happens, the ball is still very clearly in Bioware's court (even though they responded).

[Zakumene]

so what is everyone going to complain about after this gets fixed?

[Unseenhands]

so what is everyone going to complain about after this gets fixed?

 

The usual - loot ninjas, bad dps, too hard, too easy, class balance.

 

But if they fixed this, I'd be having too much fun to notice

[Xcore]

so what is everyone going to complain about after this gets fixed?

 

Targeting and Fixed *Auto Follow* Camera... after that, Allowing Addons properly to allow further evolution of said game... after that, nothing really just suggestions of improvement here and there and bug fixes while we stroll to 15million subscribers depending on the quality of Endgame PvE and PvP...

[Mintawno]

Bumping this for those who don't see it on page 1 and posting that they have this problem

[Xcore]

I have to say, I do wish I would have some insight on whats going on behind the scenes. I s this topic a quick watercooler situation or have there been boardroom meetings with the thread pages all for review (as someone suggested etc.)

 

I think everyone would have a better understanding of where "they" themselves stand in regards to this issue and SW:TOR if Bioware indicated how much they value this subject and of what level of importance it is.

[ironmb]

Thank you for this thread as an avid pvper / glad wow player if this isn't fixed soon I will proceed to leave this great game. I really wanted this game to trump wow so much but the playstyle is soo bad ATM.

[Zakumene]

Thank you for this thread as an avid pvper / glad wow player if this isn't fixed soon I will proceed to leave this great game. I really wanted this game to trump wow so much but the playstyle is soo bad ATM.

 

No one cares about your looming threats to quit. Get over yourself. Keep it to facts - when does this occur, what character type, is it just lag or you're stuck channeling an ability?

 

No one cares about how much you've played WoW.

[Halacs]

The pace for this thread has slowed a bit now that folks know it's being looked at.

[Falkenlurch]

The pace for this thread has slowed a bit now that folks know it's being looked at.

 

It will speed up if the first content patch did nothing to change it. So it's calm before the January storm.

[Olzmo]

Has anyone discerned if lower FPS has any exacerbating effect on the delay? For me, it clearly takes a bit longer time for my character to start performing an instant ability from idle state in the main area of fleet compared to the hangar area.

[Xcore]

No one cares about your looming threats to quit. Get over yourself. Keep it to facts - when does this occur, what character type, is it just lag or you're stuck channeling an ability?

 

No one cares about how much you've played WoW.

 

You're the same guy that said there is no problem just adapt or stop mashing buttons right?

 

 

Now that Bioware your loyalty demands you support this fix? How about you get over yourself. The questions you posed are irrelevant if you actually understood what you're talking about and asking about...

 

What Character Type -- ALL

What Character Ability -- ANY

Is it just lage or you're stuck channeling an ability -- No, 60 FPS @ 30ms

 

 

If you actually had "any" grasp of the issue you'd understand that it is an over-arching problem in the way combat mechanics are designed from Animation Prioritization to Client/Server Communication.

[Halacs]

Has anyone discerned if lower FPS has any exacerbating effect on the delay? For me, it clearly takes a bit longer time for my character to start performing an instant ability from idle state in the main area of fleet compared to the hangar area.

 

I have seen no correlation between the two but that is just me.

[Xcore]

Has anyone discerned if lower FPS has any exacerbating effect on the delay? For me, it clearly takes a bit longer time for my character to start performing an instant ability from idle state in the main area of fleet compared to the hangar area.

 

Yes it absolutely does but its due to simple logic in this case. Not Responsive is bad as it delays abilities and does not allow for proper rotation usage etc. quick inputs etc. Add actual lag and now its the regular delay + lag delay making you want to kill yourself.

[Randkin]

Don't feed the trolls, Xcore. If they don't get responses they go away.

[Xcore]

I have seen no correlation between the two but that is just me.

 

It just makes it more obvious:

 

Regular lag-free environment = Responsiveness lags behind by 0.5-1.5 seconds

 

Laggy environment = Responsiveness lags behind by 0.5-1.5 + 2-3 seconds = 4.5/5+ sec

 

 

It is + lag that the general not so sensitive person experience it more but attriubtes it completely to the lag... so no it doesn't "cause" it but makes it more "noticeable".

[Dondethegreat]

bump....ed

[Zakumene]

What Character Type -- ALL

What Character Ability -- ANY

Is it just lage or you're stuck channeling an ability -- No, 60 FPS @ 30ms

 

 

If you actually had "any" grasp of the issue you'd understand that it is an over-arching problem in the way combat mechanics are designed from Animation Prioritization to Client/Server Communication.

 

Stop spouting misinformation. I've never experienced any of these issues on any of my characters. One of my guild mates has, but only on his Marauder.

[Tebbo]

I just hope this isn't so deeply built into the system as I fear it is. For now, I wouldn't hold my breath. If they had a good response, they would be giving it. In the 100 questions or so that were answered this did come up and the response was that they're aware, but can't say more.

 

Hope for the best, expect the worst. :|