'MMO' does NOT mean boring lengthy endgame grindfest

[Shillen]

What keeps people playing? You need to give some alternate content to raids and gearing up your character. If you want the players to make their own content that has been a proven failure by SWG.

 

edit: ***, you said SWG didn't have resources? SoE doesn't have resources? You've got to be kidding me. They had more resources than Blizzard did. WoW is what made Blizzard all the money it has. Yeah, they had good games before that but they weren't SoE.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Shillen

[Enako]

Many people seem to think in very simple terms. It seems to be that people either consider a game a "grind" or that it's "boring".

 

i dont. i think that a game should have everything in it. ranging from rpg to simulation to strategy to sandboxing. and these games exist - they are called hybrids. the only thing is that there has been no aaa implementation of such hybrid games yet.

 

however this should tell that, me or my perspective is not a perspective that excludes people. i include people.

 

BUT,

 

the people who are in the progressive grindfest style, either exclude everyone else, or want to include them only in their playstyle. you can easily judge from the responses in this or other threads. a game either made around a long grindfest and rewardfest entirely, or else - they complain. 'gear is too easy to get', 'there is nothing to do since i rushed to level 50' 'carebears !!!'.

 

But one of the biggest things that irritates me about the entitlement issues is the phrase, "turning a game into a second job". I'd really love to have whatever job these people have that they think that sitting at a desk and pressing a few buttons now and then is "work". George Jetson himself would be jealous.

 

and i wonder how you have not come to the realization in your normal life that what constitutes a 'job' is something that you have to do every day, repetitively, in order to be able to rewarded with some payment/reward that is much smaller in percentage to the effort you have spent for the company or profits you have made them gain.

 

its an irritating realization. and comes with time. if you have not had it yet, you are lucky.

 

in short - repetitive things you HAVE to do continually in order to gain a very small percentage/chance reward in the end, are boring. thats what we call a job.

 

and, ANYthing that you can name, becomes such a thing after enough repetition - even if you are paid to play and test computer games, even if you are paid to bungee jump every day.

 

repetition is the enemy of fun. with enough repetitions, anything can become irritating.

[Umbral]

excuse me, if you dont know about something, DONT talk about it.

 

5% is the statistic of blizzard, which they made by checking how many accounts have seen endgame. this was explained in a blog post, and then over this, making game more accessible was justified.

 

there is nothing to discuss about that.

Ya, you might want to do a little more searching on that particular statement, since it was later explained, and again, if it was literally the case, players of that game would still be playing that kind of content. WoW's numbers haven't had any significant drop yet. People spout numbers leaving all the time, but it rolls on, and the fact is most people playing the game are doing endgame raiding in one form or another, or are PvPing.

 

But hey, way to stick your fingers in your ears and hummm real loud there.

[Enako]

What keeps people playing? You need to give some alternate content to raids and gearing up your character. If you want the players to make their own content that has been a proven failure by SWG.

 

is it ?

 

what failed swg was someone named smedley, in lucas arts, poking otherwise a very successful game company, soe, to turn swg into wow.

 

to do this, they first eradicated all the accumulation of players in their flexible skill trees, removed professions, and implemented grindfests WITHOUT any story to back them up.

 

thats when the game went down the drain.

 

if sandbox was a failure, there would be noone playing eve.

 

edit: ***, you said SWG didn't have resources? SoE doesn't have resources? You've got to be kidding me. They had more resources than Blizzard did. WoW is what made Blizzard all the money it has. Yeah, they had good games before that but they weren't SoE.

 

do not compare the resources of sony online entertainment, to vivendi. do you even know what vivendi is ?

[Enako]

Ya, you might want to do a little more searching on that particular statement, since it was later explained, and again, if it was literally the case, players of that game would still be playing that kind of content. WoW's numbers haven't had any significant drop yet. People spout numbers leaving all the time, but it rolls on, and the fact is most people playing the game are doing endgame raiding in one form or another, or are PvPing.

 

'explained' -> bring that explanation to us then.

 

or, 'explanations' like the below ?

 

http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=153241/the-real-reason-only-5-of-people-saw-sunwell-naxx40

 

wow's numbers havent had any significant drops ? you are saying that 600,000 canceled active subscriptions in last 3 months, were not significant ?

 

or are you in the delusion of thinking that 18 million subscriptions that wow boasts, are ACTUAL paying subscriptions, instead of majority frozen ones ?

 

.......

 

i think you are a bit too opinionated, but underinformed. if you reinforce this opinion of mine any further, i may opt to respectfully skip by reading or replying to your posts.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Enako

[Shillen]

do not compare the resources of sony online entertainment, to vivendi. do you even know what vivendi is ?

 

Go back to 2004 and SoE was the big gaming dog. They owned Everquest, the most profitable MMO ever. SoE's success is the reason Blizzard made an MMO. SWG did not lack funding. That is a terrible argument.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Shillen

[Perfik]

 

... and for the person that was trying to say that WoW isn't a AAA mmo, ya thanks for joining the genre this month, but please .....

 

I don't play the game, and haven't for a long time, but trying to say it's not a AAA mmo is just ludicrous. Whether I like it, or you like it, it is in fact THE AAA mmo standard at this time.

 

 

 

 

because i DIDNT' joined the genre this month i say wow isnt' AAA MMO anymore (if you want the clarification), it was at vanilla and TBC but not anymore

 

if you like WoW is fine i do not judge you for that

but saying as a FACT that WoW is the MMO genre and Standard well .. you get the point....

 

Best Selling =/= Best Game

Edited December 30, 2011 by Perfik

[Enako]

Go back to 2004 and SoE was the big gaming dog. They owned Everquest, the most profitable MMO ever. SoE's success is the reason Blizzard made an MMO. SWG did not lack funding. That is a terrible argument.

 

its not that argument is terrible, - you are bad at reading comprehension and discussion :

 

the resources and manpower which are spent to wow NOW, and what soe has had allocated to swg, cannot be compared even by thousands of miles.

 

back in 2004 soe was the 'top dog in mmo', but, mmos were not what they are now. back then they were a budding genre. now they are a massive industry and major cash cows for their companies.

 

the argument was - 'much resource is spent to wow, and yet it goes to balancing and keeping the game' -> whereas compared to wow NOW, (and actually value of dollar was not too different 5 years ago - at least in surface) soe allocated a very little amount of resources to swg, and yet not only managed to keep it up, but also :

 

- created a spectacular totally new game called jump to lightspeed expansion

- totally changed the ENTIRE gameplay mechanics TWICE, because some fool from lucas arts, called smedley, pressurized them to turn the game into wow

 

..............

 

see. swg had changed twice. and, a totally new game was added to it. none of these happened in wow. main wow mechanic stays the same.

[Vindor]

Im curious, if you dont want gear progression grindfest, what do you propose a mmoRPG, as you forget the RPG in your statments.

 

And rpg are originally pen and paper level and gear grindfest enrobed in irl roleplay.

 

But anyways, what do you propose a mmorpg should propose to do beside upgrading your character ?

[Uldalas]

the flame boys and haters will come here and say that you are a casual, zombie and other funny things

 

they do not understand what you say because their IQ is lower than <10

They do not know what MMO means, they believe MMO means WOW

 

I tottaly agree with you

 

MMO is not a GRINDFEST

MMO is not killing the same boss for months to gear up 25 ppls

MMO is not "click accept on quest" "it doesnt' matter what it says" "i kill 10 boars" "go back" "click accept again" "exp"

 

some ppls do not get their facts straight. Every mmo they play they see it as WOW2 or XXXgame2 . Thank god most of them leave after the free month and the community will stabilize after that

 

+1 @OP

 

A few comments on this post and the topic in general.

 

First im pretty fed up with poeple beingenvious of hardcore players e-peen. You cannot divide an entire playerbase into casual and hardcore. Everyone has thair own style, some play more and some play less. And every singe player plays n his/her own way.

 

Some thing are stated here that i would like to quick cooment aswell:

 

MMO is not a GRINDFEST

It doesnt say anywhere that its not allowed to be one either.

 

MMO is not killing the same boss for months to gear up 25 ppls.

Which is why you should agree with the "hardcore" players that we need more end-game content fast. Cause i dont want to kill the same mob for months. I would like new challenges or other ways to progress my character.

 

MMO is not "click accept on quest" "it doesnt' matter what it says" "i kill 10 boars" "go back" "click accept again" "exp"

This one makes me laugh a bit. I love the voice acting and i love the feeling of the game environment, but to be honest SWTOR is the least innovative game i've ever played when it comes to quests. Basically there is the same 3 types weve seen all over. Kill X mobs, Click X objects. And talk to this guy and then to that guy.

 

With the whole story being such a fundamental experience of this game how come theres no quests where you have to think about your choices? Maybe i could solve who the killer is and i could decide to blackmail him and unlock a different "campaign"

 

No matter what choices you take, dark or light the story is the same and this is one of the areas where BW has proven to be amaxing before. not so much in SWTOR imho.

 

they do not understand what you say because their IQ is lower than <10

They do not know what MMO means, they believe MMO means WOW

This part is just a pretty bad troll

 

some ppls do not get their facts straight. Every mmo they play they see it as WOW2 or XXXgame2 . Thank god most of them leave after the free month and the community will stabilize after that

 

Talking about facts WOW is just easier to compare to than other games. Its WOW mechanics all the way through. Basically its WOW in a fancy skin. Don't get me wrong. i dont want this to be WOW ot WOW2. If i wanted that i would not be here. This is about simple expectations.

 

Ex. When i buy a car i expect it to be different than other cars. Theres a reason i choose one car over another cause i like one better or it is less expensive. Theres alot of things that are different between two cars.

 

BUT!

 

I expect it to turn when i turn the steering wheel. I expect it to go forward when i hit the speeder. I expect it to start when i turn the key etc.

Basically Think of the game-mechanics as a car and the skin makes the game.

 

Wether i want to drive my car for 20 hours a day or not. I expect my time driving the car to feel as enjoyable in Switzerland as it is in Las Vegas. But if i werent allowed to drive it outside a small area i would get bored quick. Cause to be honest once the cars runs its more about looking out the window. And i want to drive it all over the world.

 

TL;DR

Stop hating on hardcores, everyone plays the game thair own way.

[Umbral]

'explained' -> bring that explanation to us then.

The 5% statement was misquoted by overeager bloggers and pseudo game journalists. The 5% that was talked about was the percentage of players that had seen ALL of the end game content. Meaning those players in guilds that had all the endgame raids on "farm" status. The truth was, and still is, that most players doing the PvE side of the game are either working through the endgame content, or trying to get there. Case in point, although they wanted to make GETTING to the endgame content more accessible, Wrath is noted for still having the most challenging endgame raids the game had had to that point.

 

or, 'explanations' like the below ?

 

http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=153241/the-real-reason-only-5-of-people-saw-sunwell-naxx40

 

wow's numbers havent had any significant drops ? you are saying that 600,000 canceled active subscriptions in last 3 months, were not significant ?

 

or are you in the delusion of thinking that 18 million subscriptions that wow boasts, are ACTUAL paying subscriptions, instead of majority frozen ones ?

 

.......

 

i think you are a bit too opinionated, but underinformed. if you reinforce this opinion of mine any further, i may opt to respectfully skip by reading or replying to your posts.

Ummm you do realize that nowhere is that number substantiated right? That the only place that talks about any drop in subs is a .6 million $ drop in revenue in the quarter JUST before the release of Catclysm.

 

I'll say it again, you're flogging opinions, not facts. there's a very large number of places where game producers get together and offer opinions and such. To take those opinions and tout them as FACT is folly at best. Kind of dishonest debating at worst......

[Shillen]

back in 2004 soe was the 'top dog in mmo', but, mmos were not what they are now. back then they were a budding genre. now they are a massive industry and major cash cows for their companies.

 

This is so wrong. There's a reason there were so many MMO's developed after Everquest and before WoW. It was a major cash cow. WoW just took a major cash cow and turned it into a money tree. SoE gave SWG as many resources as it required. They wanted the next Everquest. The lack of content and game-breaking bugs killed the game.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Shillen

[Xerda]

Levelling multiple characters is a bit tedious because of the wholly linear approach. I'm basically repeating the exact same content over and over but skipping through most of the conversations because I know them. It would be nice to have a variety of routes for quests etc to be able to vary that experience.

 

My main char that does everything first it's all wow and ooh aaaahhh etc but after that not so much

[Enako]

A few comments on this post and the topic in general.

 

First im pretty fed up with poeple beingenvious of hardcore players e-peen. You cannot divide an entire playerbase into casual and hardcore. Everyone has thair own style, some play more and some play less. And every singe player plays n his/her own way.

 

me too.

 

however, other people not wanting to divide gaming preferences does not prevent the particular vocal minority that wants everyone to play in their progressive grindfest style from doing that.

 

they ask that game entirely revolve around their gameplay. and if anyone voices opposing opinion, they are labeled as 'not wanting to spare EFFORT for the REWARDS' ( not to mention that effort/reward grind is a playstyle THEY prefer - not everyone has to). and then become aggressive.

 

people who dont like to parley with such aggressiveness just leave the discussions. what ends up is one vocal minority continually voicing their opinion and demands and complaints.

 

this is a problem.

 

...............

 

had this minority been more receptive of OTHER playstyles, and be more democratic as to many preferences in a MASSIVELY multiplayer game existing, there would be no problem at all. NO problem.

 

the exclusive crowd is that crowd. sometimes rightfully so - because game has to totally suit to their style for their style to be realized - like, if anyone is able to achieve some kind of gear progress or boss progress through OTHER means, and they think that requires 'less effort', then it irritates the hell out of them.

 

see, the problem here is actually nor progressive raiding/gearing style - they could just progressively repetitively grind end bosses or instances and gear up and practice the SAME gameplay style they prefer.

 

its about EVERYONE doing that - because if, people can get the things they get through any other or 'easier' means, it means that those people 'competitively' has outdone them.

 

so its about enforcing a kind of hierarchy/ladder/competition on all players - for this entire game has to be a long grindfest/progressfest, and everyone has to be placed according to how much effort they put.

 

that is the thing creating problems for all of us. i am not playing games for 'being placed in a gear progression hierarchy according to my effort'. if i wanted to be placed for ANYthing, i would just go play competitive starcraft ladder as an esports, like i did before.

 

but i am in this game, or other games for the game world, fantasy and story it creates. therefore, i dont want the features i want be tied to a progress grindfest, because of a certain group's playstyle.

 

and now if in return, this group also accepted that our gameplay/playstyle and pleasures should not be subjected to their particular playstyle, we would get along like two beans in a pot.

 

but they dont.

[Nidien]

What MMO's have some of these people been playing all these years? They all run the same concept. Level, get gear, grind bosses, craft, interact, pvp. They've been the same with different aspects since I was a kid and playing MajorMud, so can someone please enlighten me on what games you guys have been playing that hasn't been like that and considered an MMO?

 

MajorMud - text based grind fest. Addicting and fun as hell. Level up and hit the tower hoping for gear.

EQ - level up and grind for gear

DAOC - level up and grind for gear

Shadowbane - level up, take over cities and grind your city to have vendors have...yup you guessed it...better gear

Warhammer - level up, and yup...grind for gear

Final Fantasy XI - level up....oh yeah and grind for gear

Age of Conan - level up...again grind for gear

Aion - Grind for everything including levels

Champions Online - level up and holy crap...grind for gear

WoW - level up...oh yeah and again grind for gear

The list goes on and on....

 

I think we see the trend. They are all the same and have been the same, so what are people complaining about now? It's what you make of the game, interacting with others etc etc...I just think that some of you guys don't realize that MMO's aren't your cup of tea.

[Enako]

This is so wrong. There's a reason there were so many MMO's developed after Everquest and before WoW. It was a major cash cow. WoW just took a major cash cow and turned it into a money tree. SoE gave SWG as many resources as it required. They wanted the next Everquest. The lack of content and game-breaking bugs killed the game.

 

everquest was not a major cash cow. if it was, we would be playing everquest instead of wow.

 

wow had copied everquest playstyle. actually it was not something they saw from everquest - blizzard had had experimented this 'grind/drop reward' thing with diablo 1 and diablo 2 - especially in battle net. and they saw it worked and it was addictive for a certain segment of players.

 

and they have launched wow. mainly thanks to blizzard's well earned reputation for making good games, and legacies of warcraft, starcraft, diablo, the game got to prominence easily.

 

i know - because MANY people who would NOT play mmos at all - because they were competitive starcraft gamers, ie rtsers - have actually played wow. you could not persuade these people in the gaming community i was running, to play mmos easily. yet, they easily played wow.

 

and when it was seen that wow was an addictive cash cow for a certain percentage, everyone imitated them.

 

dont get me wrong - 5% of 18 million registered accounts, is still some major number for MANY gaming companies. but, it cannot satisfy the shareholders of a megacorp like vivendi.

[Vindor]

 

 

I would love an answer to my question please sir

[Nidien]

This is so wrong. There's a reason there were so many MMO's developed after Everquest and before WoW. It was a major cash cow. WoW just took a major cash cow and turned it into a money tree. SoE gave SWG as many resources as it required. They wanted the next Everquest. The lack of content and game-breaking bugs killed the game.

 

You mean the CU patch is what killed the game. The game was going strong and fun as hell despite the lack of content and a few bugs. The CU is what killed that game.

[Enako]

I would love an answer to my question please sir

 

similar question was asked, and discussed beforehand. please refer to those earlier posts. if you want to go into detail, bring forth the detailed part.

[DarthPeterNorth]

MMOFPS doesn't but this is a MMORPG so yea, its all about grind with lots of disguises to make it look less painful.

[Enako]

You mean the CU patch is what killed the game. The game was going strong and fun as hell despite the lack of content and a few bugs. The CU is what killed that game.

 

hell !

 

soe was even getting away with 1 character per server per account.

 

you had to have a SECOND account with another subscription, if you wanted to open a second character on a server.

 

go figure the travesty.

 

how many mmos are there who did that, and got away with that for that long recently ? none. because it was unacceptable even then.

 

yet that many players were maintaining more than 1 accounts and monthly payments to play a second character.

 

this should tell a lot.

[Nikusu]

So OP, you just want gear when you ding 50? You're the most powerful being in all the land and you can sit on your mount in the fleet flaunting your prowess? What's the point of being 50? Ding and done. Next character. Next character. "Hey, leveling is kind of boring." "New patch!? Meh. My gear is already the best." New expansion. "10 levels!?" Ding and done. I must be missing something in that sea of words because there's no way someone would actually complain about having to work for character progression. I'm wrong, right? Edited December 30, 2011 by Nikusu

[Enako]

So OP, you just want gear when you ding 50? You're the most powerful being in all the land and you can sit on your mount in the fleet flaunting your prowess? What's the point of being 50? Ding and done. Next character. Next character. Hey, leveling is kind of boring. New patch!? "Meh. My gear is already the best." New expansion. "10 levels!?" Ding and done. I must be missing something in that sea of words because there's no way someone would actually complain about having to work for character progression. I'm wrong, right?

 

what happened to the word named 'fun' .....

 

thanks for proving my point with an excellent example.

[Umbral]

You mean the CU patch is what killed the game. The game was going strong and fun as hell despite the lack of content and a few bugs. The CU is what killed that game.

Excuse me? The game was not "fine" at all. The game was losing 10 000 subscribers a month before the changes came, and there was absolutely no indication that bleeding was going to stop. At that rate, SoE was looking at having less than 100 000 subs within 6 or 7 months, and STILL no indication that the bleeding would stop there.

 

When the changes were made, it wasn't everyone that was up in arms. That's what so many nowadays seem to forget. Fully half of the game's subscribers were very happy changes were finally being made. Unfortunately when the other half caused such a ruckus and then rage quite, that fact was lost. Then faced with a game that seemed very empty, more left, and as they say, the rest is history. Unfortunately it's history that gets twisted a lot these days.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Umbral

[Enako]

Excuse me? The game was not "fine" at all. The game was losing 10 000 subscribers a month before the changes came, and there was absolutely no indication that bleeding was going to stop. At that rate, SoE was looking at having less than 100 000 subs within 6 or 7 months, and STILL no indication that the bleeding would stop there. .

 

please provide the statistics and the timeline. with references.

 

surely the game was losing subscribers - since they were already mashing/changing a lot of things and due to the myriad of bugs that existed.