black_pyros Posted January 15, 2021 Posted January 15, 2021 (edited) REWORK PvP MATCHES SCOREBOARDS AND REWARDS in warzones make only own damage, protection and healing numbers be visible So the only stats visible for all will be: mvp votes, kills, deaths and objectives. if you want to keep deserter debuff in regs, then allow map choice or at least map type choice ASAP consider adding additional rewards for unranked warzones and arenas - This could be done in form of unranked tokens tradeable for some nice cosmetic stuff which unlike ranked rewards doesn't even have to be necessarily new or unique to PvP. - If you don't have resources to create new rewards, you could always reward players with CM items for example in form of purchasable boxes (with different tiers for different price ranging from bronze to gold/platinum) that would contain random armor sets/weapons/decorations etc. All of them possibly BoE so players that won't want them could trade them. [note: I am sure you have metrics to set up the price for such boxes to not collide too much with your CM revenue. If these options are unrealistic, then perhaps different players can come with different ideas of what they would like to be able to purchase for tokens, but the general idea is to give players something nice for their efforts in regs to promote competitive play with a carrot, rather than a stick, which is currently represented by the hated and not well accepted system of 'no win = next to no reward'] remove medals - They represent an obsolete (you get rewarded for useless numbers farming), bugged (you often get no winner medals for winning a match) and unfair system that favors certain roles over others. Replace them with a new and much more fair system which I am going to explain here: - Instead of medals, base all rewards and points towards daily/weekly missions on points for objectives earned during the match (arenas are going to be explained later). - Rework points for objectives to better reflect actions contributing most to team's success. Some examples can be as follow: Points should be awarded for actions like capturing a node (wall, bridge, pylon), defending or attacking captured node (being or fighting in 60m distance from own node or ONLY fighting in 60m distance if node belongs to enemy team), interrupting caps, grabbing the ball, passing it, scoring with it, protecting and healing a ballcarrier, damaging/killing enemy ballcarriers or CCing/pushing them inside traps, grabbing and delivering orbs, grabing mods in Odessen and using them correctly, etc. [note: Points for passing the ball should only be awarded for the first few passes if they happen to be between members of the same group to prevent unwanted points farming within premades (after each score, you can allow them to be awarded again few times). For the same reason, points for grabbing the ball should only be awarded for the first grab or after score or after enemies throw it away, to prevent players from farming them with throwing away tactic] Points for objectives should also be awarded for fighting at uncaptured node (important thing only fighting = doing damage, protection or heals should count and not just being there) and for doing actions that help to capture the node, like successful CCing enemy before the cap occurs (let's say 6 or 8 sec interval before the cap); or even smaller points for unsuccessful - interrupted capture (just not make them too big to unwantedly promote capture spamming instead of fighting). Bonus points should also be awarded for guarding (means being within 60m of) own node if no fight happens there, but split the fixed amount between all players guarding it - this is to promote guarding unattacked nodes but also to demotivate speculants just standing there to collect easy points. To further demotivate afkers and speculants, make sure that if own node gets stolen while the guarding person(s) is (are) not engaged in combat or not sapped, all points and bonus points awarded during guarding get nullified. change points required for daily completion to 7 and weekly to 30 - In warzones top 3 players (based on points for objectives) from winner team should receive full rewards (valor, Conquest/Renown/Experience points, credits, gear currencies, unranked tokens etc.) and 4 points towards daily/weekly missions (D/W). - Rest players from winner team should receive 3/4 of the rewards and 3 points towards D/W. - Top 3 players from defeated team should receive half the rewards and 2 points towards D/W. - Rest players from defeated team should receive 1/4 of the rewards and 1 point towards D/W. introduce thresholds based on points for objectives to replace former medals ones (unbeatable, invincible, immortal) - Introduce also a replacement for the former 8-medals basic threshold for granting maximum rewards - this time this threshold would represent minimum points for objectives required to receive rewards at all; so afkers and non-contributors will get zero rewards no matter if from winner or defeated team. - Players replacing leavers should either get this condition removed or should start with some points granted perhaps based on time remaining. - The basic threshold can then also be variably based on length of the match to make sure if win occurs too fast, players still get their rewards, or if win occurs too slow, afkers and non-contributors still can't pass the minimum threshold. in unranked arenas remove medals as well Since there are no objectives, introduce combat points that reflect player's damage, protection or healing done, total damage taken and other actions that help team like CCs, cleanses, interrupts, killing blows, unstealthing opponents, etc. unlike warzones, keep all stats in unranked arenas visible unlike warzones, base rewards in unranked arenas purely on winning or losing the match - Possibly with some bonuses for combat points gained but keep in mind, that it may not be player's fault to be focused and die first with lower combat points gained (although combat points for total damage taken should mitigate this problem slightly). - All members of winner team should get full rewards and 3 points towards D/W. - All members of defeated team should get 1/2 of the rewards and 1 point towards D/W. consider removing medals and introducing combat points in ranked arenas as well This post is about regs but why not do this in ranked, too, just keep conditions for gaining rewards the same as now. rework achievements for warzones - In their current form they promote farming numbers over intended play which is doing objectives. - For example instead of farm X kills, killing blows, solo kills in 50 different games; rather make players cap a node or grab a ball or score with it, plant a bomb, defuse a bomb etc. X times in 50 different games. - Archive current achievements and set them to zero points similar of how you dealt with KP/EV NiM ones to not erase the effort that some players did put in them. consider adding 8vs8 TDM maps - They don't need to be necessarily new as you can rework existing ones to spare resources. - You can introduce rewards for TDM maps similar to objective maps but based on combat points instead. - I am sure you have metrics to decide if such maps would be popular enough to implement, but seeing how many players currently deathmatch in warzones, it would be probably best to separate objectives focused players from TDM oriented players as they have too different mindset to mix them together and it only causes frustration and increases toxicity. Edited January 22, 2021 by black_pyros
Craydingus Posted January 15, 2021 Posted January 15, 2021 I'm on board with the mission rewards part of what you're suggesting. Would your suggested points system reward solo kills? While there are situations where solo-kill-chasing is bloodthirsty stat-farming, there are equally many instances where solo kills to take a node are game-changers, and that should be rewarded, on top of the act of node-capturing itself.
black_pyros Posted January 16, 2021 Author Posted January 16, 2021 (edited) Would your suggested points system reward solo kills? While there are situations where solo-kill-chasing is bloodthirsty stat-farming, there are equally many instances where solo kills to take a node are game-changers, and that should be rewarded, on top of the act of node-capturing itself. Good point. Yes, the 'etc.' I did put in there could actually contain solo kills as well. Under some conditions, of course. In maps with nodes, only if they happen within 60m distance of node to not reward kill chasing. In Hypergate, add orb carrier to that. In Odessen add mod carrier. In Huttballs, only the ball carrier (damn that's so sad if a ball carrier gets solo killed) or perhaps enemy waiting near line or near ball spawn, too. In Huttballs, there should be also points for succesful CC of the enemy if it leads to ball steal, whether during pass or after the ball spawns. But this should be deduced from the paragraph where I speak about points for succesful CC leading to a cap. Edited January 16, 2021 by black_pyros
TrixxieTriss Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 (edited) Make lowbies and Mids matter again so people learn the basics there and not lvl 75. Add rewards like tech frags and give everyone the highest amount of abilities and utilities that those brackets allow. Then remove the win only requirement to finish missions. Change it to a 2:1 ratio in lowbies and 3:1 ratio in Mids. This can then be made a 4:1 ratio at lvl 75 Add extra missions that encourage team work. There aren’t enough pvp missions in at lvl 75, but they are severely lacking in lowbies and Mids, Increase the number of matches for the weekly mission. Make the weekly lowbie / mid weekly count towards conquest the same as the lvl 75 weekly does, Rework the medal and objective point system to reflect team work. Add a reg currency and vendor to spend them at for unique pvp items. Remove the “public scoreboard stats” of kills, damage, defence, healing for objective pvp and make them private so only the player can see their own. Keep them for arena matches. Make the public objective scoreboard about objective points and newly reworked medal system. Reward players as well based on medals and objective points + what ever the reward is for winning or losing. The more medals or higher objective points, the more rewards. That way it’s possible that even someone on the losing team might get more rewards than someone on the winning team if they played well. Make the old set bonus Armor available to buy from lvl 10 at the pvp vendor. This is something the pvp currency could be used for. Lastly, all of this can then be ported to lvl 75 once the kinks have been ironed out. Edited January 16, 2021 by TrixxieTriss
xxXArmyXxx Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 Well not the game is the biggest problem. I play sometimes on Tulak Hord BGs. Its suck hard. All of the guys have 306 gear stat but no one uses their heads. You can not call for a change without giving out some brains. Competence for all again and it will be better again.
Skullbash Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) Just don't allow people to q regs as a group. And bring back 8v8 team ranked. Edited January 17, 2021 by Skullbash
black_pyros Posted January 17, 2021 Author Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) The wrong sentiment of many posters here on forums is that hitting 'queue as a group' button suddenly makes players better. Like hitting a single button can turn a noob into a skilled veteran. In reality, there is no such magic button. Many players are seeing and experiencing skill disbalance and they wrongly call it premade vs PuG issue. Preventing players from queue-ing in group won't solve skill disbalance. The experienced veterans even when they queue solo will still stomp noobs. In fact, noobs can still hit the 'queue as a group' button and they will still get stomped by experienced veterans queued as solo. There are many premades out there that are beyond bad. That button obviously did not help them. Only thing that would help in this case is a proper matchmaking system. A system that would correctly measure player's skill (very hard to do) and then put players with similar skill level with and against each other. So noobs will play with and against other noobs and skilled players with and against other skilled players. Never mix these two together. But to achieve that, not only you need advanced and hard to design skill measurement system, you also need healthy population. Edited January 17, 2021 by black_pyros
Skullbash Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 The wrong sentiment of many posters here on forums is that hitting 'queue as a group' button suddenly makes players better. Like hitting a single button can turn a noob into a skilled veteran. In reality, there is no such magic button. Many players are seeing and experiencing skill disbalance and they wrongly call it premade vs PuG issue. Preventing players from queue-ing in group won't solve skill disbalance. The experienced veterans even when they queue solo will still stomp noobs. In fact, noobs can still hit the 'queue as a group' button and they will still get stomped by experienced veterans queued as solo. There are many premades out there that are beyond bad. That button obviously did not help them. Only thing that would help in this case is a proper matchmaking system. A system that would correctly measure player's skill (very hard to do) and then put players with similar skill level with and against each other. So noobs will play with and against other noobs and skilled players with and against other skilled players. Never mix these two together. But to achieve that, not only you need advanced and hard to design skill measurement system, you also need healthy population. No, that would be FAR too difficult to implement. There are plenty of bad premades but going in with multiple people in a coordinated group with you will give a distinct advantage that everyone else solo q'd in the wz lacks, even if you're too bad at the game to use that advantage.
black_pyros Posted January 18, 2021 Author Posted January 18, 2021 (edited) No, that would be FAR too difficult to implement. I agree. I just posted that to emphasize that solving the skill imbalance can't be done by removing the option to queue in group. Groups are not the reason why skill imbalance exists. Putting unskilled players against skilled ones is the reason for that. going in with multiple people in a coordinated group with you will give a distinct advantage that everyone else solo q'd in the wz lacks It's the skill that gives the most distinct advantage. Not hitting a single button. Every (even solo queued) skilled player can coordinate well enough with any others, that also know how to read maps, how to count to 8, how to use defensive skills properly, how to not break teammate's CC's when they are trying to cap, how to use own CC's to help teammate to cap and plethora other important things, that distinct good players from the bad. The coordination only becomes a problem, when players lack the skill to coordinate. If they do so, there is no button that can possibly help them. And blaming either own incompetence, or incompetence of their teammates that matchmaker put them with or both on pressing the 'queue as solo' button while their enemies pressed the 'queue as a group' button certainly won't help them either. Edited January 18, 2021 by black_pyros
apprentihugo Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 1st : You don't need to remove premades in 8v8 unranked maps. 2nd : You don't need to add more rewards/medals around objectives. 3rd : You can't change how the players are. 4th : The solution to all issues in PvP has never been as simple and evident. (I'll show you) --> Bioware has been trying to improve regs with more restrictions and rewards around objectives in 8v8 unranked PvP. It didn't work. There is toxicity everywhere, people still leave warzones or stay afk and there are less players playing the game. --> If people don't play the objectives in 8v8 unranked PvP, it's because they have a good reason. They want to improve their skills and get better with a class/spec to go eventually into ranked PvP. They are looking for a deathmatch unranked game mode. Many of your ideas could be great in 8v8 unranked warzones, but it might only increase toxicity because even with the biggest rewards ever around objectives, the players will never change the way they play. So it's simple : unranked PvP and ranked PvP are both extremely toxic, from the damage farmers AND the objective players. After all, what do we want ? -We want less toxicity in ranked/unranked, more players in PvP and a good reason for hundreds of new people to subscribe. --> There is the idea that will fix absolutely all those problems, as much in ranked as in unranked : Solo Unranked PvP Arenas. As I said, your ideas for better rewards when playing objectives are great, but the players that care to win will continue no matter what to play objectives, and the players that don't care to win will continue no matter what to farm the kills. -->The only solution is to separate those two types of player. Let the people choose if they want to play in solo 4v4 unranked arenas deathmatch only, or in 8v8 unranked objective maps only. The solution is so simple, and the game already has the exact same type of game mode, but it's ranked. (I explain it in my own thread but ranked pressure and new players are the first source of toxicity in ranked, and why people don't subscribe to play for ranked.)
Skullbash Posted January 18, 2021 Posted January 18, 2021 (edited) 1st : You don't need to remove premades in 8v8 unranked maps. 2nd : You don't need to add more rewards/medals around objectives. 3rd : You can't change how the players are. 4th : The solution to all issues in PvP has never been as simple and evident. (I'll show you) --> Bioware has been trying to improve regs with more restrictions and rewards around objectives in 8v8 unranked PvP. It didn't work. There is toxicity everywhere, people still leave warzones or stay afk and there are less players playing the game. --> If people don't play the objectives in 8v8 unranked PvP, it's because they have a good reason. They want to improve their skills and get better with a class/spec to go eventually into ranked PvP. They are looking for a deathmatch unranked game mode. Many of your ideas could be great in 8v8 unranked warzones, but it might only increase toxicity because even with the biggest rewards ever around objectives, the players will never change the way they play. So it's simple : unranked PvP and ranked PvP are both extremely toxic, from the damage farmers AND the objective players. After all, what do we want ? -We want less toxicity in ranked/unranked, more players in PvP and a good reason for hundreds of new people to subscribe. --> There is the idea that will fix absolutely all those problems, as much in ranked as in unranked : Solo Unranked PvP Arenas. As I said, your ideas for better rewards when playing objectives are great, but the players that care to win will continue no matter what to play objectives, and the players that don't care to win will continue no matter what to farm the kills. -->The only solution is to separate those two types of player. Let the people choose if they want to play in solo 4v4 unranked arenas deathmatch only, or in 8v8 unranked objective maps only. The solution is so simple, and the game already has the exact same type of game mode, but it's ranked. (I explain it in my own thread but ranked pressure and new players are the first source of toxicity in ranked, and why people don't subscribe to play for ranked.) Ok, now this idea I like. Edited January 19, 2021 by Skullbash
TrixxieTriss Posted January 19, 2021 Posted January 19, 2021 1st : You don't need to remove premades in 8v8 unranked maps. 2nd : You don't need to add more rewards/medals around objectives. 3rd : You can't change how the players are. 4th : The solution to all issues in PvP has never been as simple and evident. (I'll show you) --> Bioware has been trying to improve regs with more restrictions and rewards around objectives in 8v8 unranked PvP. It didn't work. There is toxicity everywhere, people still leave warzones or stay afk and there are less players playing the game. --> If people don't play the objectives in 8v8 unranked PvP, it's because they have a good reason. They want to improve their skills and get better with a class/spec to go eventually into ranked PvP. They are looking for a deathmatch unranked game mode. Many of your ideas could be great in 8v8 unranked warzones, but it might only increase toxicity because even with the biggest rewards ever around objectives, the players will never change the way they play. So it's simple : unranked PvP and ranked PvP are both extremely toxic, from the damage farmers AND the objective players. After all, what do we want ? -We want less toxicity in ranked/unranked, more players in PvP and a good reason for hundreds of new people to subscribe. --> There is the idea that will fix absolutely all those problems, as much in ranked as in unranked : Solo Unranked PvP Arenas. As I said, your ideas for better rewards when playing objectives are great, but the players that care to win will continue no matter what to play objectives, and the players that don't care to win will continue no matter what to farm the kills. -->The only solution is to separate those two types of player. Let the people choose if they want to play in solo 4v4 unranked arenas deathmatch only, or in 8v8 unranked objective maps only. The solution is so simple, and the game already has the exact same type of game mode, but it's ranked. (I explain it in my own thread but ranked pressure and new players are the first source of toxicity in ranked, and why people don't subscribe to play for ranked.) Do you know we no longer have enough players to do that? Sure this would have been a great idea 5 years ago when most of us were asking for exactly this. Biowares response was they didn’t want to increase the queue times and splitting the queue would do that. So if they didn’t want to increase the queue times 7 years ago when we had many more players than now, what makes you think there are enough players now to make this work? The reality is they won’t ever split the queues because pop times are that matter to Bioware. Not quality and not fairness. It has always been this way and that’s why pvp is in such a poor state and failing. The players have been telling them to do this for years and years since they first introduced arena maps. Those of us who’ve come to realise Bioware won’t change, have been trying to find other ways to improve pvp that don’t include splitting the queue. Some of our ideas are a bit out there and others are pretty good. Sadly, Bioware rarely if ever listen to the players. Maybe if they did, we wouldn’t have situation we find ourselves in.
apprentihugo Posted January 19, 2021 Posted January 19, 2021 Do you know we no longer have enough players to do that? Sure this would have been a great idea 5 years ago when most of us were asking for exactly this. Biowares response was they didn’t want to increase the queue times and splitting the queue would do that. So if they didn’t want to increase the queue times 7 years ago when we had many more players than now, what makes you think there are enough players now to make this work? The reality is they won’t ever split the queues because pop times are that matter to Bioware. Not quality and not fairness. It has always been this way and that’s why pvp is in such a poor state and failing. The players have been telling them to do this for years and years since they first introduced arena maps. Those of us who’ve come to realise Bioware won’t change, have been trying to find other ways to improve pvp that don’t include splitting the queue. Some of our ideas are a bit out there and others are pretty good. Sadly, Bioware rarely if ever listen to the players. Maybe if they did, we wouldn’t have situation we find ourselves in. The only reason why my idea might be bad is if we don't have enough people to split the queue. --> This is going to separate the players, you are right. Althought on Star Forge, during all the day, there are enough people in queue to almost never wait for a game, even in the morning. I see new players, ranked players hanging out in unranked and objective players all the time. Now, think about the phenomenal amount of players that left PvP because how toxic it is, and because they can't choose between deathmatch and objective play. We are loosing players every day because of that, players that have been playing for years AND the new players we are trying to recruit. --> At what price do we want to pay for our constant and interminable inaction? We both want to give to this game the place it deserves and improve the PvP experience. We want to take the best ideas for for the most beneficial action as possible. --> Separating the queue is going to be so beneficial that players who had left the game for a long time will return. New players will no longer suffer from the immeasurable toxicity in ranked/unranked, are going to enjoy their time and will no longer throw the game away and change it for World of Warcraft. Today we must take our destiny in hand and act in such a way as to have a major impact, a total revolution. It is not an easy decision but we need to have the courage to stand up for our convictions and I know that you and I want to do everything in our power. So let's take this power and let our words be heard. We must not be shy about fighting for what is important to us.
TrixxieTriss Posted January 19, 2021 Posted January 19, 2021 Your idea isn’t bad, it’s just not practical in the current state of the game. More People than usual have already bailed out over the lock out and win only policy. And while you may see a queue pop fast in your prime time, that time has shrunk significantly and is popping the same small crowd of players. The issue isn’t us fighting for something better. We’ve all tried doing it for many years and you’re not the first to suggest a system like this. The problem is Bioware have categorically said on numerous occasions that pop times need to be balanced against any other changes. And sadly, splitting the queue would increase pop times for both queues. Just recently ChrisS posted some info on discord regarding ranked matchmaking and why they need more people in the queues to balance it out, hence “less gate keeping” and why at the 5 min mark, the system makes unbalanced teams because the pop times get too long. They are basically trying to balance pop times with quality and pops always win vs quality. I’m also not saying I fully agree with that philosophy, but I can see the logic behind it. If Bioware hadn’t made so many poor choices over the years, we would still probably have enough players for your idea to work. And they would have implimented it years ago. The reality is there aren’t enough people playing pvp. Until that changes, then splitting the queues will never happen because Biowares logic dictates that pops come first over everything else. I wish it wasn’t so, but that’s the situation and I’m just trying to express a sense of reality to the thread. It’s not an attack on you or your idea.
-Bob- Posted January 24, 2021 Posted January 24, 2021 Increase the credit payouts for wins. Everyone wants money in this game, especially newer players. Increase the weekly win payout to 1 million credits (just an example) and the daily to 250K and in between...100K for wins and 50K for losses...or balance it however you wish. Now people have something more to work towards, kinda like earning a paycheck from your job.
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