Why I'm done with PvP

[TrixxieTriss]

You likely misunderstood. I am not faulting the Bioware CS for her position and what that entails, I am faulting Bioware because they really should be more engaged with the players. It's one thing to relay a concise message. It's something else entirely to understand our perspective. No one at Bioware seems to understand the casual PvP crowd perspective.

.

 

Ok, I get it and I agree it feels like this 99% of the time. How much it feels like that depends on what else has been going on in the game. Sadly, the poor casual pvper seems to be forgotten more than any other part of the game except maybe crafters. Even though there are way more casual PVPers than ranked pvpers, the ranked guys get all the attention.

Edited March 16, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[KendraP]

Ok, I get it and I agree it feels like this 99% of the time. How much it feels like that depends on what else has been going on in the game. Sadly, the poor casual pvper seems to be forgotten more than any other part of the game except maybe crafters. Even though there are way more casual PVPers than ranked pvpers, the ranked guys get all the attention.

 

Oh casual endgame pve is in a horrible place too.

 

It's like they have no idea there may be an area between NiM/ranked and solo story players. They need to address both reg pvp generally (endgame and lowbies/mids) AND the utter absence of a casual max level endgame.

 

They have approximately a week before I am forced to make a decision.

[EllieAnne]

The problem is It's been over TWO MONTHS and none of the Devs have an answer for us? They are still collecting feedback despite the multitude of threads on this issue? How much more do you need? That's Bioware's culture of not dealing with issues. The devs continue to run with blinders on and ignore us players. Jackie, have the devs had ANY response to what the players have been saying the last 3 months about our response to the PvP changes? From your post it sounds like nothing has been done at Bioware to acknowledge this issue. So the devs are just going to ignore us until we stop posting? That's what it sounds like.

 

What I do blame Jackie for is not checking in with us. She is relatively new so she may not understand what has gone on but we are often ignored on major issues like this so when we get ghosted for months we assume we are being blown off. Even a quick drop in saying, "I'm checking in with the comments in this thread and will be relaying it to the devs this week." would be a welcomed change from the SOP of Bioware.

[DaZeeZee]

Mitigation tanks are great in pvp, if played correctly. your job is to run distraction so your team can achieve the objectives, and guard anyone who would benefit from it most. you know what a well guarded sniper can do in pvp? insane.

 

Anyone hating on mitigation tanks in pvp needs a reality check and some brain cells.

[RikuvonDrake]

The problem is It's been over TWO MONTHS and none of the Devs have an answer for us? They are still collecting feedback despite the multitude of threads on this issue? How much more do you need? That's Bioware's culture of not dealing with issues. The devs continue to run with blinders on and ignore us players. Jackie, have the devs had ANY response to what the players have been saying the last 3 months about our response to the PvP changes? From your post it sounds like nothing has been done at Bioware to acknowledge this issue. So the devs are just going to ignore us until we stop posting? That's what it sounds like.

 

What I do blame Jackie for is not checking in with us. She is relatively new so she may not understand what has gone on but we are often ignored on major issues like this so when we get ghosted for months we assume we are being blown off. Even a quick drop in saying, "I'm checking in with the comments in this thread and will be relaying it to the devs this week." would be a welcomed change from the SOP of Bioware.

 

It could just be that the data they gather from ingame doesn't match much of the feedback that they gain in this thread and that it thus isn't a high priority issue, you say "over two months" like its a long time for what basically would equal a huge redesign to pvp both at max level and lowbie. I can totally see why devs both would want to wait for actual confirmation in data that this is an issue and additional time to plan and develop a new feature around this, for anyone actually working with this kind of issues 2 months is nothing heh

 

A key factor that would hurry up development and planning would be if the gameplay changes they made resulted in a reduction of subscribers or paying customers, after all Bioware is a company and data like financial numbers will have a heavy impact on them, just like it would on any other business that provides an entertainment service. But if people just "think" its bad but keep playing and paying anyway, it doesn't make much of a difference does it? See exhibit a, you are still here, if you play less pvp but perhaps spend that time doing something else ingame that is just fine with Bioware.

 

Mitigation tanks are great in pvp, if played correctly. your job is to run distraction so your team can achieve the objectives, and guard anyone who would benefit from it most. you know what a well guarded sniper can do in pvp? insane.

 

Anyone hating on mitigation tanks in pvp needs a reality check and some brain cells.

 

For regs you can play with whatever gearing you want, it won't make much of a difference, its all down to skill, if you are bad you will be performing badly with skank and mitigation gear, a good player won't be using mitigation gear but i guess even if they did, they would be doing fine. I don't think anyone is hating on mitigation gearing, its a shame that defensive stats basically provide no benefit in pvp resulting in all the good tanks running skank gear for the massive dps capabilities while still being able to do all they could do as "normal" tanks.

Edited March 16, 2021 by RikuvonDrake

[DaZeeZee]

Are you saying mitigation stats do nothing in pvp? if thats the case, why does anyone still play this game and pvp at all?

 

That would seriously be the work of devs who WANT the game to fail. I mean, not even bad devs would do something that dumb.

[foxmob]

its a shame that defensive stats basically provide no benefit in pvp resulting in all the good tanks running skank gear for the massive dps capabilities while still being able to do all they could do as "normal" tanks.

the key there is to make dps gear so bad at mitigation that tunneling the skank is more productive than swapping around his healer/dps. which I guess is already the case for PTs? iunno. been awhile since I was in an arena.

 

but how much of a spec's mitigation/defenses actually relies on armor? traditionally, not much. it's mostly talented.

Edited March 16, 2021 by foxmob

[DaZeeZee]

the key there is to make dps gear so bad at mitigation that tunneling the skank is more productive than swapping around his healer/dps. which I guess is already the case for PTs? iunno. been awhile since I was in an arena.

 

but how much of a spec's mitigation/defenses actually relies on armor? traditionally, not much. it's mostly talented.

 

That's a solution worse than the problem. DPS dont need to be squishier. Tanks need to be worth it in pvp. and tbh they are. its very rare that I'm ever killed in pvp by any less than 2-4 players focusing soley on taking me out as a tank.

[KendraP]

That's a solution worse than the problem. DPS dont need to be squishier. Tanks need to be worth it in pvp. and tbh they are. its very rare that I'm ever killed in pvp by any less than 2-4 players focusing soley on taking me out as a tank.

 

I could be wrong but I think the point he was trying to make was to make tanking dependant on mitigation gear; not make dps squishier. Not providing my opinion. Just attempting to clarify what I think was being said.

[DaZeeZee]

I could be wrong but I think the point he was trying to make was to make tanking dependant on mitigation gear; not make dps squishier. Not providing my opinion. Just attempting to clarify what I think was being said.

 

Tanking in pve is already dependent on that. how would you make tanking in pvp dependent on it without breaking PVE?

 

As long as PVP and PVE work on anything remotely the same systems and skill sets, balance is impossible without fixing one to ruin the other.

[Nickodemous]

Some good points. Especially about the pvp guilds. The issue is many of the community minded pvp players have left the game. Those of us who remained are more like refugees. You also can’t have a pvp guild that doesn’t also focus on ranked pvp. The issue with that is much of the ranked community has also left the game and many of those remaining have banded together into small knit groups who want nothing to do with anything that isn’t ranked pvp oriented.

 

Regs has slowly gone down the toilet since 5.0 got rid of progression pvp gearing and much of the pvp population left not long after because of it. IMO, that and the destruction of lowbie pvp is why regs and pvp skills have degraded so badly.

 

The pvp guild I belonged to all but evaporated 5 months after 5.0 landed. Out of the 50 or so players, I only know of two others still playing the game. We use to have a vibrant pvp guild that accepted newbies and ranked guys alike. We use to practice on our guild ship in between matches and we use to run multiple premade’s at a time. We would help new players and run lowbies with them to teach skills and tactics.

 

All the infrastructure that allowed pvp guilds to function as a game option have been mostly ripped away. Lowbies and Mids is an utter joke of a set up. Lack of incentives to gear in pvp is a joke. The best gear to pvp in can’t even be obtained in pvp, you have to go play operations or spam flash points. That degrades the structure of pvp centric guilds. The extra time they would spend teaching or fostering new players skills is now needed to play operations or spam flash points.

 

While I agree that pvp guilds would be a good way to help improve the current situation, what incentive is there to have pvp focused guilds when conquest is the real end game for most casuals now to get tech frags or to gear up. And pvp is the slowest way to gear and is under rewarded in conquest compared to pve activities.

The requirement to now win your “introduction to pvp quest” to just get the gear rewards you need to play is ridiculous and says enough about how backwards the whole system is.

 

Players can only do so much. If Bioware keep making pvp less enjoyable, you have less people wanting to play it. If Bioware make gearing slower in pvp so that players have to do anything but pvp to gear, you have less people playing pvp or wanting to. If Bioware wants reg pvp to work in this game, they need to stop looking at what their future vision for pvp is and look at what’s worked in the past. The 4.x era of pvp was the golden age of pvp if you ask me. Sure it wasn’t perfect, but it was a lot healthier than it is now. We had a reason to have pvp guilds that focused on pvp from the lowest skilled pvper to the highest skilled. Now we only have a few small ranked pvp guilds who only care about ranked and nothing else.

 

What’s sad is many of us said this is what would happen. We pleaded with Bioware to bring back pvp comms or pvp gear so people could work towards gearing as they lvld up through pvp. We pleaded with them to make lowbies and Mid pvp count again. Instead, Bioware have continued to degrade it and make it worse.

 

I cant argue any of your points. I agree. Over the years I have been involved with 3 pvp guilds and one that, although pvp was not its main focus, had a hell of an 8vs8 team. I can still name them and remember many, many of former guildmates/friends that sadly no longer play.

 

Like yourself, I have watched the pvp community digress to the state it has become. Although I still enjoy it, the lack of a "community" has changed me over the years. I used to be a very outgoing player but now, pretty much keep to myself. I would consider myself a pvp hermit now, no one left on my friends list, and very rarely speak but for an occasional "gg" after a winning match. I have become a part of the problem.

 

That is where the pvp guilds come in....there needs to be a resurrection of sorts.....a new beginning with the current community. We need to quit living in the past and hit the reset button. Until players decide to take matters into their own hands, move away from "how it used to be" and work to forge and new, unified, much stronger community, I am afraid threads like this will continue to fall on deaf ears. The community is to fragmented now to be taken seriously. One big powerful voice is much easier to hear than a bunch of chirp chirp chirp chirp chirp's.

 

Hence why I suggested it might be the communities turn to make some changes. One unified voice is pretty hard to ignore.

 

Edit: Valor level bump please!

Edited March 16, 2021 by Nickodemous

[foxmob]

That's a solution worse than the problem. DPS dont need to be squishier. Tanks need to be worth it in pvp. and tbh they are. its very rare that I'm ever killed in pvp by any less than 2-4 players focusing soley on taking me out as a tank.

 

not sure you understood me. DPS gear set on the tank should cause the tank to be squishy. that means tying defensive abilities to the gear sets. there's no way to make armor rating worse and the dps is already lower hp. has nothing to do with how the gear synergizes with the DPS that its intended for.

 

although truth be told, I don't think tanks in DPS gear is a problem. I just think BW is horrible about balance changes, so that some tanks are forever good and others are forever bad.

[foxmob]

 

As long as PVP and PVE work on anything remotely the same systems and skill sets, balance is impossible without fixing one to ruin the other.

I mean...the pvp we're talking about is instanced. you make certain abilities have certain effects in certain instances. kind of like chaff flares.

 

it's really not revolutionary, but I'm not sure BW has ever bought into it.

 

personally, I'd rather they just have separate gear. but that's just not the way TOR or WoW are trending. so the next thing is to just change how abilities work. mind you, all pvp is now instanced in swtor, even OW is instanced.

 

but again, it's not really a big deal, or at least I think it's not a big deal if a tank rolls around in lower hp, higher crit/power gear. the problem with tanks (and most other class/spec issues) is just a matter of not tweaking the FotM every few months (every six months would be quick in my swtor experience).

[KendraP]

Tanking in pve is already dependent on that. how would you make tanking in pvp dependent on it without breaking PVE?

 

As long as PVP and PVE work on anything remotely the same systems and skill sets, balance is impossible without fixing one to ruin the other.

 

Again, I'm not giving an opinion here. I would also point out that many key abilities (i.e. guard and taunt) work wildly different I PvP and PvE. So it's possible. They could also bring back PvP gear to differentiate. There have been many ideas on this subject, discussed many times, to the point where the issue is getting old.

 

Now giving an opinion, mine is that they don't want to force a gearing method on someone because they're in the delusional frame of mind that there is somehow a playstyle or preference factor in gearing rather than a true BiS. I also think that any tank damage "nerfs" through gear or otherwise should be compensated for by increasing support or mitigation especially for PT and Sin tanks. Any discussion on OMG tanks OP is about guardian tanks since 6.0. Maybe sins need the DR on force speed back, idk, I don't sin tank in pvp and never have. I've been a guardian tank main and guardian dps secondary in this game since 1.x. I would also add that any nerfs to guardian tanks must not he construed to affect dps guardians who are not OP in the slightest (id argue, in fact, that dps guardians being so bad is partly responsible for the opinion that skank guardians are so good - if you went from say vigi to skank, duh your survivability just improved ten fold or more.)

[Sappharan]

You're ruining your own game by allowing this, bioware. I just ran into another double premade. At least they attempted to win. Disgusting how your match skewing works. Edited March 17, 2021 by Sappharan

[RikuvonDrake]

Making mitigation gear work in PvP is a very problematic situation, to begin with, first of all, you want to have a system that requires as little readjustment between normal pve gear and pvp gear, in a similar way to how healers don't need to change anything and DPS only adjusts their accuracy based on personal preference.

 

Tanks in PvE have a taunt that forces the target to attack them, making the mitigation gear actually useful as they use that to reduce their dtps, for PvP you can still taunt but you cannot "force" players to attack you in the same way, even if they were to increase the damage reduction on other players. Tanks also have their main defensive capabilities built into their specs with buffs from talents, defensive cooldowns and procs from abilities, meaning even without most mitigation gear they keep the majority of their "tankyness". However, that also means most decent DPS will never target a tank in pvp as it results in reduced damage, you rather focus literally anyone else, even when you are taunted, making mitigation gear work "better" won't change that. In reality, tanks in pvp have to work differently to be viable, their purpose and concept need to be different, Bioware gets that.

 

So instead you end up with the situation we have had for the last ~2-3 years with tanks gearing as DPS and using a tank, the "skank tank" build which increases their DPS enormously while only reducing the tankyness slightly. It's not a great situation, but quite frankly it could be a lot worse.

Edited March 17, 2021 by RikuvonDrake

[foxmob]

I mean...aren't PT tanks still getting tunneled, even with the "tank set" on? I would suggest that, beyond skank tanking, the real issue is that the wheel of fate has stopped spinning for tanks, and it's stuck with juggs at the 12 o'clock, the PTs at the 6 o'clock, and the sins perpetually somewhere in between.

[TrixxieTriss]

I cant argue any of your points. I agree. Over the years I have been involved with 3 pvp guilds and one that, although pvp was not its main focus, had a hell of an 8vs8 team. I can still name them and remember many, many of former guildmates/friends that sadly no longer play.

 

Like yourself, I have watched the pvp community digress to the state it has become. Although I still enjoy it, the lack of a "community" has changed me over the years. I used to be a very outgoing player but now, pretty much keep to myself. I would consider myself a pvp hermit now, no one left on my friends list, and very rarely speak but for an occasional "gg" after a winning match. I have become a part of the problem.

 

That is where the pvp guilds come in....there needs to be a resurrection of sorts.....a new beginning with the current community. We need to quit living in the past and hit the reset button. Until players decide to take matters into their own hands, move away from "how it used to be" and work to forge and new, unified, much stronger community, I am afraid threads like this will continue to fall on deaf ears. The community is to fragmented now to be taken seriously. One big powerful voice is much easier to hear than a bunch of chirp chirp chirp chirp chirp's.

 

Hence why I suggested it might be the communities turn to make some changes. One unified voice is pretty hard to ignore.

 

Edit: Valor level bump please!

 

I don’t know what else to say except you are right. I just hope Bioware can give you the tools in the near future to help that endeavour. For me personally, I’m getting a bit too long in the tooth to actively participate in guilds to help train or rebuild.

 

It doesn’t help that I’m not playing pvp at the moment because I’m not enjoying any aspect of the current systems Bioware have in place. I’m not sure being in a pvp guild would change that for me.

 

Maybe Bioware have a plan and we don’t know what it is yet. I really hope they reveal that plan in the coming live stream and it has lots of positives to help rebuild regular pvp from the ground up. Sadly, most of my optimism for this game has been replaced with pessimism over the years. I now need to see proof before believing things will change for the positive. There is still a little girl inside me that truely hopes Bioware have a plan to turn this all around and make pvp great again. Maybe one day she’ll get her wish.

 

In the mean time, I truely wish you the best of luck getting the community to rebuild itself. I hope others feel the same way and will come together to help you.

Edited March 17, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[Sappharan]

Map variety.

 

Here was my map variety on my sentinel:

 

suckball

voidstar

voidstar

ancient hypergate

voidstar

voidstar

voidstar

novare coast

 

:mad:

[JediMasterAlex]

I mean...aren't PT tanks still getting tunneled, even with the "tank set" on? I would suggest that, beyond skank tanking, the real issue is that the wheel of fate has stopped spinning for tanks, and it's stuck with juggs at the 12 o'clock, the PTs at the 6 o'clock, and the sins perpetually somewhere in between.

 

This is mostly correct. Tank balance is atrocious right now. Jugg tanks are really the only viable tank in both solos and group ranked. PT tanks can find very limited success given the right conditions. I haven't seen a successful sin tank on Star Forge since I came back to the game in s10.

 

Tank balance was already quite bad before 6.0, but the gap has only grown larger due to grit teeth and force bound. Bioware should either buff pts and sins to be more like juggs or nerf juggs to be more like pts and sins, but It's silly that one of the three has maintained such a dominant position for so long.

Edited March 17, 2021 by JediMasterAlex

[TrixxieTriss]

Map variety.

 

Here was my map variety on my sentinel:

 

suckball

voidstar

voidstar

ancient hypergate

voidstar

voidstar

voidstar

novare coast

 

:mad:

 

It’s sad this is still an issue after years of being complained about. I’m assuming you requeued straight after you left each match and didn’t take a break in between.

[foxmob]

This is mostly correct. Tank balance is atrocious right now. Jugg tanks are really the only viable tank in both solos and group ranked. PT tanks can find very limited success given the right conditions. I haven't seen a successful sin tank on Star Forge since I came back to the game in s10.

 

Tank balance was already quite bad before 6.0, but the gap has only grown larger due to grit teeth and force bound. Bioware should either buff pts and sins to be more like juggs or nerf juggs to be more like pts and sins, but It's silly that one of the three has maintained such a dominant position for so long.

 

my guess for the dirth of sin tanks is also that being stealth, sins have a viable alternative in solos. but in TDM, they lose a lot of their utility. not that I remember them really ever being desireable outside of the hybrid class tree specs.

Edited March 17, 2021 by foxmob

[Sappharan]

It’s sad this is still an issue after years of being complained about. I’m assuming you requeued straight after you left each match and didn’t take a break in between.

 

Your assumption is correct.

[TrixxieTriss]

Your assumption is correct.

 

Imagine if Vandin and Quesh ball were still in the rotation Then you would have had to replace all the Voidstars with Hutt Ball maps instead. Which is worse in my opinion because of how buggy all Hutt ball maps are.

 

What I wouldn’t give for map choice or map type choice. I think I would play hypergates gates till I became sick of it and then void Star. Both of those are my favourite.

 

I don’t mind Civil War or Yavin either (as long as you have a team that guards and zergs to back up when you need it). Nova coast is alright, but certainly not my favourite because less people try to win at that than playing Hutt ball (at least that’s the way it seems everytime I play that map now)

 

I’d still play arena when I’m short on time or there aren’t enough people in the queue. But they need to remove Mando ring cause it’s too bugged and sometimes kills you more than players do, The best arena is Corellia square or Tatooine pit. The others kind of blow and Rishi isn’t much better than Mando with its own bugs.

[Sappharan]

Imagine if Vandin and Quesh ball were still in the rotation Then you would have had to replace all the Voidstars with Hutt Ball maps instead. Which is worse in my opinion because of how buggy all Hutt ball maps are.

 

It's not just the technical problems with the suckball maps that makes me hate it so much, it's the flag capture mode I loathe.

 

What I wouldn’t give for map choice or map type choice. I think I would play hypergates gates till I became sick of it and then void Star. Both of those are my favourite.

 

My favorites are Alderaan, Vandin, and AH...not sure about order though. Depends on mood.

 

I don’t mind Civil War or Yavin either (as long as you have a team that guards and zergs to back up when you need it). Nova coast is alright, but certainly not my favourite because less people try to win at that than playing Hutt ball (at least that’s the way it seems everytime I play that map now)

 

I’d still play arena when I’m short on time or there aren’t enough people in the queue. But they need to remove Mando ring cause it’s too bugged and sometimes kills you more than players do, The best arena is Corellia square or Tatooine pit. The others kind of blow and Rishi isn’t much better than Mando with its own bugs.

 

I love arena. I wish they came up more often. Corellia Square is far and away my favorite. Then I like Orbital Station. Tatooine Canyon is okay, Mandalorian Battle Ring, and Makeb Mesa are all fine, but I cannot stand Rishi Cove.

 

 

P.S. Not one VS tonight. Mind you, I played very few games (three I think) because I felt burned out tonight. Of course, in those three I had my most loathed map...suckball. Quesh is the...absolute...worst. Thankfully that is not being used.