Please consider letting us filter out of arena when queueing unranked.

[florencea]

> Now, the biggest problem with unranked arenas is that they often pop as 3v4 , 2v4 games or one has healer and other does not . This is very annoying , but we all know that it happen for the sake of having a game . If they fixed this, arenas would pop very very rarely .

 

They can't fix low-pop issues so easily though.

[DavidAtkinson]

You must know that this is entirely a population issue.

I think you're on DM? must be a lot of dead times there. On SF, arenas are rare at 75 - very rare, like 1:20. Deep into the night/morning they pop "a lot more" - 2:5 or thereabouts.

 

By contrast, mids pop arenas on SF ~5:1 (or more). Again, the queue population is small. I haven't been in lowbie to test it, but I'm told it's the same.

 

The reason you're looking at 2v4, 3v4, unbalanced roles, etc. in arenas is the same reason arenas pop instead of WZ: low population. When an arena starts at 2v4, that means 2 players AFK'd or declined the pop (not even knowing what the map would be). Usually when players leave arenas before the start, they do so b/c they refuse to play arenas, and no backfill occurs (again) because the population is low and another 'warm body' isn't available.

 

every single issue related to lopsided arena roles/numbers is directly attributable to low population, which is exacerbated when players quit the second they see they're in an arena (actually rare on SF ~1:4).

 

Unranked on DM pops almost 24/7 . Yes, early morning is with low population but still , the game makes games for the sake of pops and not for the sake of quality of matches when it comes to arenas . Especially when the population is low in the mornings.

[foxmob]

that hasn't been the case for like 5 years now.

 

when it's possible to put support roles on both teams, whether it's WZs or arenas, the machmaker does so.

 

the same is also true of premades.

 

the problem occurs when there simply isn't enough population in the queue. and it's not ranked. they're not going to hold up the queue and wait for a certain role to get perfectly balanced roles in regs, which are a clusterf*** regardless.

 

edit: I don't have a problem with this. there's not really anything you can fault BW for in this regard.

Edited April 4, 2021 by foxmob

[TrixxieTriss]

> Now, the biggest problem with unranked arenas is that they often pop as 3v4 , 2v4 games or one has healer and other does not . This is very annoying , but we all know that it happen for the sake of having a game . If they fixed this, arenas would pop very very rarely .

 

They can't fix low-pop issues so easily though.

 

This is my biggest gripe with unranked arena. It needs to stop making games like this. The community has offered many suggestions on how to mitigate this, but BioWare don’t care.

[foxmob]

This is my biggest gripe with unranked arena. It needs to stop making games like this. The community has offered many suggestions on how to mitigate this, but BioWare don’t care.

 

if you don't wanna put up with it, don't queue. I'm not being a jerk here. it's the same thing that would happen if they didn't do it. nothing would pop. other than a xserver Q or merger, there isn't much you can do about this

[JediMasterAlex]

if you don't wanna put up with it, don't queue. I'm not being a jerk here. it's the same thing that would happen if they didn't do it. nothing would pop. other than a xserver Q or merger, there isn't much you can do about this

 

I disagree. They could simply use the same matchmaking that ranked has (minus elo obviously). That means it would have mirrored roles. The vast majority of the queue is dps, so it would still create arena matches. The only downside is that when there are fewer people queuing, tanks and heals would get skipped more, just like in ranked. But I think that would be a small price to pay for a much more balanced arena experience.

 

I think you're right that many players don't like arenas because it demonstrates that they're not nearly as good at pvp as they think they are. But I also think many people have a lot of bad experiences in regs arenas (3v4s, 4 dps vs 2 tanks 2 heals, etc), which leaves an overall bad impression.

[foxmob]

they already do mirror, with the caveat that they can't break-up groups and if there's no healer/tank for the dps they aren't going to skip them, which they damn well shouldn't in regs.

 

edit: they announce that before I last left. and it's clear now on SF that there's almost always role balance

 

edit2: if you look at what happens with most of the imbalanced maches, it's someone not taking the pop or quitting before it starts. arena only pops with low pop. the backfill isn't another healer or vice versa.

Edited April 5, 2021 by foxmob

[JediMasterAlex]

they already do mirror, with the caveat that they can't break-up groups and if there's no healer/tank for the dps they aren't going to skip them, which they damn well shouldn't in regs.

 

edit: they announce that before I last left. and it's clear now on SF that there's almost always role balance

 

edit2: if you look at what happens with most of the imbalanced maches, it's someone not taking the pop or quitting before it starts. arena only pops with low pop. the backfill isn't another healer or vice versa.

 

I don't believe that's true. The kind of balance changes you're talking about were in regards to regular warzones, to help ensure that the number of tanks/healers was relatively even. I don't think it applies to arenas. From what I've seen it's essentially the norm for regs arenas to have mismatched roles, which would be impossible if what you're saying is true. And it should go without saying that mismatched roles in arenas often dictate the results, even moreso than in regular warzones.

Edited April 5, 2021 by JediMasterAlex

[foxmob]

i think what's throwing you is the fact that players are in groups so are inseparable. like ther's 8 in q but the tank and heal are in the same grp.

 

or the healer leaves in spawn. that happens all the time. a lot of healers won't do arenas b/c of the focus

 

edit: my anecdotal experience is too strong to for me to ignore. the vast majority of my arenas have heals on each side, or one support role. like...easily 60% easily. that's conservative. and I see healers leave and get replaced by dps all the time.

 

again, keep in mind that there's already a shallow pool of players to draw from when an arena pops, so you're not working with a lot of choice, and you're not breaking up premades. I really think the unbalanced arena in regs is the small player pool at that time on the server.

Edited April 5, 2021 by foxmob

[JediMasterAlex]

again, keep in mind that there's already a shallow pool of players to draw from when an arena pops, so you're not working with a lot of choice, and you're not breaking up premades. I really think the unbalanced arena in regs is the small player pool at that time on the server.

 

My main point is still that regs matchmaking for arenas can be improved. Even with your own numbers, 40% is a lot of matches to have mismatched roles or 3v4s in. Are you really saying that can't be improved upon?

 

Let's say there's a 4 man premade, 1 tank 1 healer 2 dps, and then 8 more dps in queue. Not enough players for a regular warzone, so it makes an arena. If the premade queued first, it probably gets put against 4 dps. It would be far better if the premade got skipped and the matchmaker made a 4 dps vs 4 dps match with the 8 randoms. I'm not saying skip the premade indefinitely. Eventually time in queue should override balancing, but the way it works now is just not leading to fair matches far too often. Premades getting longer queues is a small price to pay for that.

[TrixxieTriss]

I disagree. They could simply use the same matchmaking that ranked has (minus elo obviously). That means it would have mirrored roles. The vast majority of the queue is dps, so it would still create arena matches. The only downside is that when there are fewer people queuing, tanks and heals would get skipped more, just like in ranked. But I think that would be a small price to pay for a much more balanced arena experience.

 

I think you're right that many players don't like arenas because it demonstrates that they're not nearly as good at pvp as they think they are. But I also think many people have a lot of bad experiences in regs arenas (3v4s, 4 dps vs 2 tanks 2 heals, etc), which leaves an overall bad impression.

 

This is a great post. Wish I could up vote.

[florencea]

This is my biggest gripe with unranked arena. It needs to stop making games like this. The community has offered many suggestions on how to mitigate this, but BioWare don’t care.

 

Meh. I'm not a fan of the "BioWare fault' theory. Most of the suggestion I've seen had one major problem : they were made by people who didn't understand a single thing about programming (in its technical and financial aspect), or worse, who thought they were alone in a MMORPG. It's easy to ask for an ideal pvp ; much more difficult to craft it.

 

And... Well, please excuse my rudness, but some suggestions make me think that listening to the sacred community isn't such a good idea (aka : premade should queue separatly from others, another topic on this page).

Edited April 5, 2021 by florencea

[foxmob]

My main point is still that regs matchmaking for arenas can be improved. Even with your own numbers, 40% is a lot of matches to have mismatched roles or 3v4s in. Are you really saying that can't be improved upon?

 

 

60% was being conservative to eliminate the possibility of emotional memory skewing things. But also consider that at least 1-in-4 players (on average, often more at once) leaves arenas before they start. I find that to be the case more often for healers, but I also get a lot of players on my team where the grps haven't filled yet but the other team has a tank or healer and mine doesn't. someone on my team leaves and a healer (who had already been given the pop) took the queue and ports in. Then we get who ever is next in the queue, which could be a tank, heal, or dps, because the matchmaker is scrambling to fill a 'warm body' for a match that already popped.

 

You also have to keep in mind that there is that limited number of players in the pool to choose from, which is why imbalanced matches, statistically speaking, make sense in arenas more often than WZs. Even when they're solos, there could be just one healer no tanks. or a tank and a healer, which are split when not grp'd together. But then someone will jump in, "but they're on the same team when I played that time!" well...yeah. were they premade? did someone back fill? did someone decline the pop and the tank queue'd after the grps were formed so it took him? there are so many perfectly logical reasons for this simply explained by the low population pool.

 

Let's say there's a 4 man premade, 1 tank 1 healer 2 dps, and then 8 more dps in queue. Not enough players for a regular warzone, so it makes an arena. If the premade queued first, it probably gets put against 4 dps. It would be far better if the premade got skipped and the matchmaker made a 4 dps vs 4 dps match with the 8 randoms. I'm not saying skip the premade indefinitely. Eventually time in queue should override balancing, but the way it works now is just not leading to fair matches far too often. Premades getting longer queues is a small price to pay for that.

 

They could do that. Should they? 6 years ago, I absolutely thought they should. I whined and cried about everything that was remotely unfair. But c'mmon. You've seen regs. They're a joke. And just 2 rated-quality dps on that 4-dps team will cut through that reg trinity like a hot knife through butter 9/10 times. It's regs. There are no stakes (well, the asinine wins requirement for quests lul, but that's not matchmaking). Get on with it. Certainly don't delay the pop for players playing the game correctly (grp'd in trinity).

 

Furthermore, if you don't want to fight the arena or think it's unfair, leave! oh. wait. that other new change to queues since I was here last. good gawd. every one of these problems can be swiftly and more equitably solved by *fixing* things that are actually broken: charity wins and quitter debuff (imo, of course). I'm also not exactly clear on how it's "quitting" when you leave before the match even begins. I would call that, "I don't want to play this map-ing," which is perfectly reasonable, although it still forces players to sit on or against teams that predominately ignore the objectives (actually a huge problem for me atm, as I'm wearing 286 gear and the crap upgrades from wins dwarf those of losses), so being on teams that aren't even trying to at least end the game via victory is quite frustrating.

 

It was common sense to role balance regs when possible, but I think it's going overboard, punishing players for basically ensuring their match is balanced properly, to wait. I say this as a person who queues solo 99% of the time.

 

in any case, this is just opinion at this point. we disagree? ok. we disagree.

[JediMasterAlex]

Then we get who ever is next in the queue, which could be a tank, heal, or dps, because the matchmaker is scrambling to fill a 'warm body' for a match that already popped.

 

And instead, in my opinion, it should look for the same role that left, rather than prioritizing the person that was in queue the longest.

 

But then someone will jump in, "but they're on the same team when I played that time!" well...yeah. were they premade? did someone back fill? did someone decline the pop and the tank queue'd after the grps were formed so it took him? there are so many perfectly logical reasons for this simply explained by the low population pool.

 

Yes...those are logical reasons; I never suggested it was magic. The fact is, there are remedies to these matchmaking problems. These remedies might lead to slightly longer queue times. If you don't like that trade off, that's a perfectly valid opinion, but I think a lot of people would like it quite a lot.

 

They could do that. Should they? 6 years ago, I absolutely thought they should. I whined and cried about everything that was remotely unfair. But c'mmon. You've seen regs. They're a joke. And just 2 rated-quality dps on that 4-dps team will cut through that reg trinity like a hot knife through butter 9/10 times. It's regs. There are no stakes (well, the asinine wins requirement for quests lul, but that's not matchmaking). Get on with it. Certainly don't delay the pop for players playing the game correctly (grp'd in trinity).

 

To be fair, I don't play regs that much anymore. That's the reason I hardly weigh in on all these regs threads. I find solo ranked much more fun and competitive, so there's just not much reason for me to queue regs. That being said, if there were a regs arena queue, I would queue for it a lot practicing classes I'm not as good at.

 

You may not be especially bothered by regs arenas, but many others are. It's not like I'm the only one. And I think when people don't enjoy regs arenas, many just assume they'll similarly dislike ranked arenas, which are obviously much different, and I think that's a shame.

 

Ultimately, it does come down to wanting slightly better matchmaking, which could lead to longer queue times for some people. As I said, wanting the fastest pops possible is also reasonable for the more casual environment of regs. It's not like it's up to us anyway.

Edited April 5, 2021 by JediMasterAlex

[foxmob]

You may not be especially bothered by regs arenas, but many others are. It's not like I'm the only one. And I think when people don't enjoy regs arenas, many just assume they'll similarly dislike ranked arenas, which are obviously much different, and I think that's a shame.

it's more a matter of growing up. ppl look for excuses about why they lost and how unfair this that or the other thing is. that is, for the most part, what is going on here. I know it. I was it. nobody's immune to it. and they're entirely convinced that they are in the right b/c they found one sliver of a thing that's not fair. and they think "if only this one thing were changed, I'd be vindicated and could really enjoy pvp the way it was supposed to be and I'd win more and...and...and...."

 

the skill disparity in regs is significantly greater than in-season solos. to put this into perspective, you've seen me in solos. I'm mediocre at best. I'm a perennial silver on a merc. when I roll my dcds properly and don't freak out, I still don't do the dmg I should do for my up time. I'm head and shoulders above 70% of the fodder in regs. ppl see my low ilvl and focus me in arenas while one of their guys dies and a 2nd is out of cds before maybe I'm in trouble. no offense to the people with religious devotion to making reg arenas the most equitable queue on the planet, but that's not the problem. it's a minor inconvenience.

 

it's unreasonable to sit players in the regular queue, especially when they're doing the job that most players aren't willing to do (tank/heal). if there were an overabundance of healers (that was once the case for regs and the queue would throw 3-4 heals on a team), then they'd have to hold them back. but holding them back because they're the only ones in the queue? the reg queue with no stakes? naw. that's punishing them to placate someone else who has no greater right to a faster pop.

 

Ultimately, it does come down to wanting slightly better matchmaking, which could lead to longer queue times for some people. As I said, wanting the fastest pops possible is also reasonable for the more casual environment of regs. It's not like it's up to us anyway.

true and true.

 

it's not like I'm all about the pops, btw. but all of this complaining. it's not reasonable. there are very valid reasons why these things happen in arenas (other than low population, it's the ppl who can't TDM who leave asap, btw!).

 

BW has taken, imo, reasonable steps to put premades on opposite teams and support roles on opposite teams. the only other things they can do are invasive (denying players their place in the queue or splitting up premades), which are anathema to the spirit of the game. they are, after all, regs. the priority isn't the same as ranked where you want the most level playing field possible to determine who's truly the best. the compromise does lead more toward getting players matches.

[JediMasterAlex]

it's more a matter of growing up. ppl look for excuses about why they lost and how unfair this that or the other thing is. that is, for the most part, what is going on here. I know it. I was it. nobody's immune to it. and they're entirely convinced that they are in the right b/c they found one sliver of a thing that's not fair. and they think "if only this one thing were changed, I'd be vindicated and could really enjoy pvp the way it was supposed to be and I'd win more and...and...and...."

 

Well, that's a nice theory, but none of that applies to me in the slightest.

 

it's not like I'm all about the pops, btw. but all of this complaining. it's not reasonable. there are very valid reasons why these things happen in arenas (other than low population, it's the ppl who can't TDM who leave asap, btw!).

 

BW has taken, imo, reasonable steps to put premades on opposite teams and support roles on opposite teams. the only other things they can do are invasive (denying players their place in the queue or splitting up premades), which are anathema to the spirit of the game. they are, after all, regs. the priority isn't the same as ranked where you want the most level playing field possible to determine who's truly the best. the compromise does lead more toward getting players matches.

 

I'm not even complaining, I'm simply pointing out facts (that many regs arena matches are terrible because they're 3v4, mismatched roles, etc) and potential solutions (stricter matchmaking, etc). Remember, I love arenas! You'd rather it stay as it is to ensure the fastest pops possible. I'm not sure why that's so important to you, but you do you. Also, I never said anything about splitting up premades, and "denying players their place in the queue" is quite a dramatic way to phrase getting skipped so the matchmaker can create fairer matchups for everyone involved, including the player getting skipped.

Edited April 5, 2021 by JediMasterAlex

[foxmob]

Well, that's a nice theory, but none of that applies to me in the slightest.

the majority of players who leave, and I say this as a person who's spent an awful lot of time in pve guilds, is ignorance, incompetence (based on ignorance), and straight refusal to recognize that "premades" and "they have a healer" isn't why they get their **** pushed in. balancing roles is a good thing. skipping over players who do what most players don't do b/c it's hard, b/c they know they'll get focused, is pretty f'd up.

 

I'm not even complaining, I'm simply pointing out facts (that many regs arena matches are terrible because they're 3v4, mismatched roles, etc) and potential solutions (stricter matchmaking, etc). Remember, I love arenas! You'd rather it stay as it is to ensure the fastest pops possible. I'm not sure why that's so important to you, but you do you. Also, I never said anything about splitting up premades, and "denying players their place in the queue" is quite a dramatic way to phrase getting skipped so the matchmaker can create fairer matchups for everyone involved, including the player getting skipped.

I mean...you're also not criticizing this every - single - day. and here's the thing, I know I keep saying this, but dude, this isn't the matchmaker's first choice. it's a symptom of low population. it's just another lie we trick ourselves with that "fixing" it will suddenly make players who can't deal with arenas now suddenly be viable.

 

edit: did that in a rush. sry. saw a trixxi'e in the pop. in <vex> not sure if was a troll though. anyway...fast pops are important b/c regs are a **** show with or w/o balanced roles. "casual" players are going to leave them b/c they don't want to TDM or don't like being focused down (many of them alledge other reasons b/c we all find those little slivers to justify our performance), and there aren't any real stakes over wins/losses in regs, so skipping over ppl who play a more difficult (and arguably more necessary) role is - iunno violates my sense of fair play?

Edited April 6, 2021 by foxmob

[JediMasterAlex]

skipping over players who do what most players don't do b/c it's hard, b/c they know they'll get focused, is pretty f'd up.

and there aren't any real stakes over wins/losses in regs, so skipping over ppl who play a more difficult (and arguably more necessary) role is - iunno violates my sense of fair play?

 

But then the result is mismatched roles a lot of the time, and is that really fun for anyone? If I were a healer, I'd want to go against another healer, and I'd be happy to wait out a game or two for that to happen (and obviously this only applies to off peak hours when arenas pop).

 

I get what you're saying. Regs is a *****how, just don't worry about it, accept it for what it is. I'm sympathetic to that view. But Bioware seems to slowly be moving regs in a less casual direction with the deserter lockout and win only requirements. May as well take the next step and improve matchmaking too. But I recognize that those things are quite unpopular, and maybe keeping regs as casual as possible is a better approach overall. It's hard for any of us to know without being able to see the data.

Edited April 6, 2021 by JediMasterAlex

[foxmob]

I get what you're saying. Regs is a *****how, just don't worry about it, accept it for what it is. I'm sympathetic to that view. But Bioware seems to slowly be moving regs in a less casual direction with the deserter lockout and win only requirements. May as well take the next step and improve matchmaking too. But I recognize that those things are quite unpopular, and maybe keeping regs as casual as possible is a better approach overall. It's hard for any of us to know without being able to see the data.

 

yeah...iunno what they're doing there. those draconian quest and quitting rules are....yeah. iunno. they'd have to do A LOT. to restructure regs to make that stuff palatable.

 

if I didn't need to requeue to gear up, I'd just eat the debuff and do something else with my life. but I do wanna see what life is like at 306 and properly aug'd and stat balanced. lul

Edited April 6, 2021 by foxmob

[TrixxieTriss]

edit: did that in a rush. sry. saw a trixxi'e in the pop. in <vex> not sure if was a troll though.

 

Wasn’t me. I’ve no characters called Trixxie.

Edited April 6, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

But then the result is mismatched roles a lot of the time, and is that really fun for anyone? If I were a healer, I'd want to go against another healer, and I'd be happy to wait out a game or two for that to happen (and obviously this only applies to off peak hours when arenas pop).

 

I get what you're saying. Regs is a *****how, just don't worry about it, accept it for what it is. I'm sympathetic to that view. But Bioware seems to slowly be moving regs in a less casual direction with the deserter lockout and win only requirements. May as well take the next step and improve matchmaking too. But I recognize that those things are quite unpopular, and maybe keeping regs as casual as possible is a better approach overall. It's hard for any of us to know without being able to see the data.

 

Agreed, they should do more for regs because those other changes don’t make sense in a vacuum as they are actually driving players away.

If Bioware are deadset on taking this path, then better matchmaking and some sort of map choice is the next step to improve the system.

What grinds my gears about the changes isn’t the changes themselves, but that Bioware (I assume) have plans to do more changes and they should have waited till they could deploy them all together or with in a few months of each other and not 6-12 months apart.

They also should be willing to make small adjustments to them, which they don’t seem to be willing to do. They say they are monitoring, but its been over 6 months now and things in regs haven’t got better IMO, they’ve only gotten worse.

[foxmob]

with in a few months of each other and not 6-12 months apart.

 

biggest gripe I think everyone has about BW with everything except the CM. lol

Edited April 6, 2021 by foxmob

[TrixxieTriss]

yeah...iunno what they're doing there. those draconian quest and quitting rules are....yeah. iunno. they'd have to do A LOT. to restructure regs to make that stuff palatable.

 

if I didn't need to requeue to gear up, I'd just eat the debuff and do something else with my life. but I do wanna see what life is like at 306 and properly aug'd and stat balanced. lul

 

I know you don’t like pve stuff. But if you were to spend a week doing it, you could already be 306 and be on your way to BiS stats.

Honestly, if you are silver standard on a Merc in ranked, you can probably do some flash points solo on master mode and the rest you can easily do on veteran. If you can find one other person to run some with you, they can be done in half the time.

And I do agree with your feeling about the Bioware changes.

[foxmob]

I know you don’t like pve stuff. But if you were to spend a week doing it, you could already be 306 and be on your way to BiS stats.

Honestly, if you are silver standard on a Merc in ranked, you can probably do some flash points solo on master mode and the rest you can easily do on veteran. If you can find one other person to run some with you, they can be done in half the time.

oh. I don't disagree about the gearing. I just don't want to do it, and I appreciate the tips. but **** BW. I'm not doing that. I actually enjoy pvp, for the most part.

 

I was fine with daily quests like Ossus where you could stay in WZ queue or rated queue, do the dailies and if something popped, you just stopped doing the daily and ported right back to Ossus to finish them between pops. That's fundamentally different from running FPs. you don't pick up the the FP where you left off. dailies didn't interfere with the thing I do for fun in the game. heroics didn't interfere with the thing I do for fun in the game.

 

I don't need BiS to make regs work. as I've said a couple dozen times, it's a *****how, and bolster is a thing still. I'm passable. and while I do horrible dmg (why god, why did I do this in IO? lul) I can roll cds and guard a door against an entire team for what seems like forever (prolly only 30s), but no two average players are going to drop me. I won't kill anything that isn't really bad in that time, but I can contribute and have fun working at it.

 

edit: I have noticed it's way too easy to roll or mitigate IO dmg. even when I set off assault plastique before the timer (which you always want for the extra dmg) ops know to roll it or reflect it or roll anything I do, or any class can pop a dcd like clockwork. it's quite annoying. in gunnery, ppl know what's coming, but you don't have to do it inside of the 3s timer on the bomb, so maybe you don't waste the heatseeker or w/e. but that prolly also has to do with atrocious stat balance. I'm super power heavy with bolster and leveling gear

Edited April 6, 2021 by foxmob

[foxmob]

getting back to the original point of this thread: let's say the OP gets his wish and arenas get a separate queue. what's going to happen there? here's what I see happening:

 

 

• ranked players will be more apt to join because it's closer to what they like to do (even in objective maps).
  
• A LOT of players will simply not queue because they are just bad and/or have no interest in TDM because they cannot contribute. They're just drags on their team (like the n00b in ranked).
  
• more flaming will ensue about how bad each other is
  
• the arena queue will be incredibly unfriendly to numerous specs
  

 

as the dude would say, that's just...my opinion, man. but I'm game for it. I'd love to see what happens. I'll miss the arenas when they go away as I think they will, but I do still enjoy reg WZs when I'm not prevented from leaving a spawn-farm or OPG.

 

arena queues will become a ghost queue outside of 15-20 ppl. you won't be growing the ranks of rated players. or grooming them. or anything. man. i couldn't even get my last guild to do grp rated just to play kickball style amongst ourselves for more than 2 matches, and we had some top tier talent from the 8v8 days. well, top tier on JC. mid-tier-ish during the Pot5 transfers period.

Edited April 6, 2021 by foxmob