Matte_Black Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 How does the RNG dissuade the people from wearing the same set of gear with it is what is limiting what is available?... I didn't say "dissuade". If randomness varies what falls into two given players' hands, the clone effect becomes more improbable as each player is presented with different opportunities. Probably both could chase after the same gear but, in the short term they won't have the same options. Choice gives us the ability to express ourselves but, also gives others the power to copy our expression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Sure, not everyone is a clone but many will be. Visual progression should not be forced or be the route of least resistance whereas adopting a look outside of the progression model takes way more effort, especially with the way it works now. I'd say we flatly disagree here. That path of least resistance funnelling characters into their proper looks is exactly the sort of gravity I keep mentioning and, I am fairly certain the reason BioWare would choose to go the direction they have. They want that directorial control of how the actors on their stage appear for the sake of the story they are presenting. Some players agree with this approach and having your look mean more than just a vaneer. They realized players want to step outside this hierarchy so the compromise is to have them work for that option and provide a mechanism where not everyone will choose to follow. I'll also go on to say that for me, having to work for my custom look gives it more importance and a better chance of being unique and uncopied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O-Deka-K Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I'd say we flatly disagree here. That path of least resistance funnelling characters into their proper looks is exactly the sort of gravity I keep mentioning and, I am fairly certain the reason BioWare would choose to go the direction they have. They want that directorial control of how the actors on their stage appear for the sake of the story they are presenting. Some players agree with this approach and having your look mean more than just a vaneer. They realized players want to step outside this hierarchy so the compromise is to have them work for that option and provide a mechanism where not everyone will choose to follow. I'll also go on to say that for me, having to work for my custom look gives it more importance and a better chance of being unique and uncopied. It's difficult to figure out your stance, but I think I've got it. You're not against customization, you're against not having to work for customization. Your argument is that given an Appearance tab, people will simply buy the look that they want instead of working for it. Also, that this will circumvent the visual progression that the developers "intended", so to speak. I don't think the progression model will remotely suffer from it because you can't adopt the latest look unless you own it and you can't adopt certain looks until a certain level either. People who are into appearance aren't automatically against the progression model and enough of us will still adopt a new look whenever it indeed looks better, even when it looks more elaborate. With my Jedi Knight I have worn 3 to 4 different orange chest pieces so far. People who know me from previous iterations of this thread know that I am somehow who wanted to adopt a look indefinitely and yet even in the end don't do this. I think most people will still want to wear something different once in a while, which does maintain the progression model for everyone. This is what I agree with. If more visually appealing gear is gained the higher you level, then players will still have a progression. That is, unless someone really happens to like the look of their lower-level gear. However, people also want to look unique. Low-level gear may be so common that those going for a custom look don't want it. You'd still have to work to attain the gear you want - I don't see how that would necessarily change. I don't think that this lessens the visual design element. In fact, I think it heightens it: the more people can customize their appearance, the more of a variety there will be. Also, it gives players the option to change their looks from time to time without changing their stats. Also, this is Star Wars. The most powerful characters in the galaxy often have little to no armor. Usually the reason is that they don't need it, or that it restricts them. However, in terms of game mechanics, the only way to become "powerful" is through a combination of gear and stats. Thus, the association between "look" and "power level" can and should be severed. Unlearn what you have learned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It's difficult to figure out your stance, but I think I've got it. You're not against customization, you're against not having to work for customization. Your argument is that given an Appearance tab, people will simply buy the look that they want instead of working for it. Also, that this will circumvent the visual progression that the developers "intended", so to speak. Basically you have it. I feel there is a value to the developers being able to have a leading hand in defining what "weak" and "strong" in this world tend to look like and having my visual expression speak to more than just my sense style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethern Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) It's up to the developers to set themes, but forcing a precise progression down the throat of players is frustrating for them stupid and vain. Usually in MMOs, the progression is what the players choose it to be. The same way people have different playstyles, the same way people opt for different appearance progressions. Claiming to know what is the sole progression path for everyone, denying then discrepancies is wrong by default, and has let back up in the MMO scene than ever. Edited January 10, 2012 by Ethern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 ..., but forcing a precise progression down the throat of players is frustrating for them stupid and vain. That is not the case here. Players can choose appearance, stats or to work to have both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethern Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 That is not the case here. Players can choose appearance, stats or to work to have both. Not to the wished extent. Otherwise this thread's purpose would have disappeared. Ignoring this parameter is a too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skapek-Skocap Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 /Support A key aspect to an MMO is freedom. It's the little things that keep people interested. I want to be able to customize my character's armor and there to be an appearance tab added. Because frankly, the Champion gear looks like balls. Would save you time and effort rather then retexturing the gear, let people wear things in appearance only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonedriver Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Now that the game is up and running, I also believe appearance options need to improve for characters and clothing. What we have now is bare bones and could be so much more interesting with the addition of decorative clothing. The cutscenes have it and its obvious from ingame animations characters are fully articulated in the face. Please give players a selectable command panel to initiate sits (different poses) and standing stances (pace, lean against wall), gestures and facial moods (long term) and expressions (short.) As of now the cutscenes are pretty great, but the in-game is just unbearably emotionless. If the NPCs can do this, why can't we? B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penumbri Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Minor disagreements and laserbeam focusing on specifices has I think muddied the thread. Except for those who can never make choices, more options in how you look is a good thing. And not just 'Endgame at level 50." You should see more variety from the start. That's what this was about. Variety and options, and if/what you can change after creation. And if you have an 'A-Tab" or not. Do we like dye or not? If I have black boots, you have black boots, no matter how much we mod them we both still have black boots. Yes more modable gear is needed, but if it all looks the same we are clones. The movies, Clone Wars on CN, show a Galaxy of diferent species and looks. Even the clones do their best to look as disimilar as they can. And it's certainly not a thread about how this should be done and not fixing bugs. Or expanding other features. Who in their right mind goes to McDonalds and expect to choose "do I have cold fries and a hot Double Cheeseburger, or the other way around?" No one. To clear it up...YES! Fix all the bugs exploits glitches and clipping! YES! Expand the orange gear, add to the mods that it gets! YES! Add more endgame" And while you are doing all those things, look at these ideas too. The easiet first step is just add more style. All Jedi can wear the same 3 styles of robe, but nothing says they HAVE to. All the soldiers have the same mismatched looking white armor all the time. A-Tabs..needed or do they make us lazy? Why am I stuck in the same hair for the rest of my TOR life? Why are hoods stuck on chest pieces and I can't put it down? (oh, and RP servers do NOT have more options..not sure where that idea came from) I want a cape! Long, flowing and black!. If my name has a problem, put in a way to change it! This is an ideas thread, to help grow the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penumbri Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Now that the game is up and running, I also believe appearance options need to improve for characters and clothing. What we have now is bare bones and could be so much more interesting with the addition of decorative clothing. The cutscenes have it and its obvious from ingame animations characters are fully articulated in the face. Please give players a selectable command panel to initiate sits (different poses) and standing stances (pace, lean against wall), gestures and facial moods (long term) and expressions (short.) As of now the cutscenes are pretty great, but the in-game is just unbearably emotionless. If the NPCs can do this, why can't we? B An interesting idea, and I now see that since you pointed it out. How much of this can be done? It goes with sitting in chairs and couches, and actually being able to USE those sabacc table and gamble for credits or things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O-Deka-K Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The two main contentions with are this: 1) People want to wear light armor on their medium/heavy armor characters without taking a hit to their stats. 2) People want level 50 set bonuses (again, for stats) while still being able to choose their appearance. It sounds like BioWare is heading in the right direction with the transferable set bonuses, moddable purple gear and positional mods, but they seem reluctant to "go all the way" and give us an a-tab. I can think of a few ways to enable it without compromising the entire visual aspect, while still giving people an incentive to keep playing: 1) Unlock the a-tab after a certain point, even if it's level 50. 2) Make a new "visual slot" in the armor itself that you can fill with the armor you choose. Maybe the armor is then locked and either can't be removed or can't be replaced. Maybe only special high-level armor has this slot. 3) Make people do a mission (or a series) to unlock an a-tab. Maybe you unlock one tab at a time. In other words, make people who want an a-tab (or slot) work for it. I'm sure people would be all over it. It could even be related to the story. Something along the lines of "You have now attained the level of Grandmaster. Shed your armor, for you no longer require it." (but of course you still wear it "underneath" for the game mechanics to work). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capella Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I'd love to see appearance customization. I want to put Imperial Officer's uniform on my Juggernaut because I love the way it looks, but wearing medium armor is a bad idea for a tank. Appearance tab would fix this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I'd love to see appearance customization. I want to put Imperial Officer's uniform on my Juggernaut because I love the way it looks, but wearing medium armor is a bad idea for a tank. Appearance tab would fix this. I want no part of repping one armor type with another. Your fix would be breaking the game to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharnis Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I want no part of repping one armor type with another. Your fix would be breaking the game to me. Everything breaks the game to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHeadCapper Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I think the orange system is perfect for this game. Last thing i'd want to see is an appearance tab, those are fine for other games but not this one IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illgot Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I think the orange system is perfect for this game. Last thing i'd want to see is an appearance tab, those are fine for other games but not this one IMO. why? I think an appearance tab with restrictions can easily work in this game considering most of the designs have nothing to do with the actual star wars franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethern Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I think the orange system is perfect for this game. Last thing i'd want to see is an appearance tab, those are fine for other games but not this one IMO.You would have a point if the custom quality gear (orange) was actually covering every gear appearance in the game. Like many you are missing the point and the core purpose of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illgot Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 You would have a point if the custom quality gear (orange) was actually covering every gear appearance in the game. Like many you are missing the point and the core purpose of this thread. or allows players to keep their PvP bonuses/set bonuses with orange gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodalus Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) I didn't say "dissuade". If randomness varies what falls into two given players' hands, the clone effect becomes more improbable as each player is presented with different opportunities. This would be true if the probabilities to even get an item at all was high enough, but it's not. The probability is so low, that there are only a few different looks that exist (potential to exist does not do anything, you can't wear potential), thus everyone is either wearing one of those few or wearing quest items/drops. . . and among those that are available, the looks aren't all that different from one another. Probably both could chase after the same gear but, in the short term they won't have the same options. Choice gives us the ability to express ourselves but, also gives others the power to copy our expression. Yes, choice provides the opportunity for mimicry. But it also provides the opportunity for difference. Without choice, there is no opportunity for difference, and the uniformity doesn't even qualify as mimicry when there is no choice. Edited January 11, 2012 by Vodalus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelesK Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 /support! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penumbri Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I want no part of repping one armor type with another. Your fix would be breaking the game to me. Luke Skywalker dressed like a Storm Trooper. Cad Bane like a Clone Trooper. I would think an agent should be able to dress to fit in. I don't understand why you can't put your legs in a pair of pants because your just not right. You shouldn't get the benefits of the right type, but to just put it on, shrug. But I kinda agree with this. If you wear a heavy armor, it SHOULD look like you are. Same with medium and lite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodalus Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 As this conversation has once more come around to a debate over fundamentals, rather than specifics of the mod system, I'm going to throw this out again. -Various individuals who are pro increased customization options= fighting for what their own character looks like -Various individuals who are anti increased customization options= fighting for what other people's characters look like When it comes right down to it, some people want to control their own character, others want to control everyone's character. I don't take well to having people tell me I can't wear something because they don't like it. I don't like, for my own little world, that the slave bikini is a modable item that can be worn for combat. So, I don't wear it for combat (though, I will admit to considering wearing only part of it to create a different look, though a lot of that has to do with my frustration over the options I have at my disposal). But what I don't do is come to the forums and try to tell others that they shouldn't be able to wear it if they want to. It's their character. They look at it the entire time they are playing, I look at it momentarily. I even have a friend in the game who wears one on her JC, doesn't bother me at all. Of course, she's healing, not tanking, but even if that weren't the case, who cares, not my character to decide these things for. As such, I really have no sympathy for the argument of Atab breaking immersion. The only way it even could break immersion, btw, is if the immersion is already broken and you think about the gear from a meta-game perspective. In-game, its impact is no different than the mod system. From a character perspective, there is no way to know that a mod system look and Atab look are any different. They are UI instruments. The UI doesn't exist to the characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runeshard Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 As this conversation has once more come around to a debate over fundamentals, rather than specifics of the mod system, I'm going to throw this out again. -Various individuals who are pro increased customization options= fighting for what their own character looks like -Various individuals who are anti increased customization options= fighting for what other people's characters look like When it comes right down to it, some people want to control their own character, others want to control everyone's character. I don't take well to having people tell me I can't wear something because they don't like it. I don't like, for my own little world, that the slave bikini is a modable item that can be worn for combat. So, I don't wear it for combat (though, I will admit to considering wearing only part of it to create a different look, though a lot of that has to do with my frustration over the options I have at my disposal). But what I don't do is come to the forums and try to tell others that they shouldn't be able to wear it if they want to. It's their character. They look at it the entire time they are playing, I look at it momentarily. I even have a friend in the game who wears one on her JC, doesn't bother me at all. Of course, she's healing, not tanking, but even if that weren't the case, who cares, not my character to decide these things for. As such, I really have no sympathy for the argument of Atab breaking immersion. The only way it even could break immersion, btw, is if the immersion is already broken and you think about the gear from a meta-game perspective. In-game, its impact is no different than the mod system. From a character perspective, there is no way to know that a mod system look and Atab look are any different. They are UI instruments. The UI doesn't exist to the characters. Very well put Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnuskn Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 As this conversation has once more come around to a debate over fundamentals, rather than specifics of the mod system, I'm going to throw this out again. -Various individuals who are pro increased customization options= fighting for what their own character looks like -Various individuals who are anti increased customization options= fighting for what other people's characters look like When it comes right down to it, some people want to control their own character, others want to control everyone's character. I don't take well to having people tell me I can't wear something because they don't like it. I don't like, for my own little world, that the slave bikini is a modable item that can be worn for combat. So, I don't wear it for combat (though, I will admit to considering wearing only part of it to create a different look, though a lot of that has to do with my frustration over the options I have at my disposal). But what I don't do is come to the forums and try to tell others that they shouldn't be able to wear it if they want to. It's their character. They look at it the entire time they are playing, I look at it momentarily. I even have a friend in the game who wears one on her JC, doesn't bother me at all. Of course, she's healing, not tanking, but even if that weren't the case, who cares, not my character to decide these things for. As such, I really have no sympathy for the argument of Atab breaking immersion. The only way it even could break immersion, btw, is if the immersion is already broken and you think about the gear from a meta-game perspective. In-game, its impact is no different than the mod system. From a character perspective, there is no way to know that a mod system look and Atab look are any different. They are UI instruments. The UI doesn't exist to the characters. Absolutely correct. If it comes down to a choice between more or less freedom, I'll always go with the "more" option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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