we got to redeem Arcann what about Vaylin

[ShomanPaul]

Look creators yall have gotten plenty of comments about Vaylin getting redeemed. getting to have vaylin on the outlanders team because she she is a much more torcherd character than arcann ever was. She was experimented and tourchered by her own father I mean really all she needed or wanted was love someone that actually cared for her and she obviously needed a psychologist. But yall still have not done a thing. I think to myself why? Yall say it just was not in her character well Arcann should not of had that in his character either Because he was just as bad or worse. Yall say it just would not fit good. well so what we as subscribers we are paying you to entertain us Not to say "Nope can't do that would not fit in with her character" so I think yall should release a way to have vaylin on the team. besides she's attractive:)

http://www.swtor.com/r/DDJqP4

Edited May 16, 2020 by ShomanPaul

[DarkGruffalo]

Look creators yall have gotten plenty of comments about Vaylin getting redeemed. getting to have vaylin on the outlanders team because she she is a much more torcherd character than arcann ever was. She was experimented and tourchered by her own father I mean really all she needed or wanted was love someone that actually cared for her and she obviously needed a psychologist. But yall still have not done a thing. I think to myself why? Yall say it just was not in her character well Arcann should not of had that in his character either Because he was just as bad or worse. Yall say it just would not fit good. well so what we as subscribers we are paying you to entertain us Not to say "Nope can't do that would not fit in with her character" so I think yall should release a way to have vaylin on the team. besides she's attractive:)

 

oh and here is my referral link yeye: http://www.swtor.com/r/DDJqP4

 

they can't excatly go back and retcon the chapters, how would they bring her back? Or are you just looking for her to be recalled like the dead companions? in essence being like the CM companions, just to be seen and not heard?

Edited April 18, 2020 by DarkGruffalo

[ShomanPaul]

They could make more chapters of that zakul series.

 

http://www.swtor.com/r/DDJqP4

[Elessara]

They could make more chapters of that zakul series.

 

http://www.swtor.com/r/DDJqP4

 

Except they would have to retcon the last chapter of KotET and everything after that because as it stands Vaylin dies regardless.

 

Also, let's face it not everyone can be redeemed ... and not everyone wants to be. I honestly think Vaylin likes the way she is. Does she like how she got there? No and she hates Valkorion and Senya for it. But she doesn't want to change.

[Ner_idia]

People (including myself) have been asking for Vaylin as a companion for a very long time. The fact that genocide boy gets a free pass is the most annoying part of it.

[ShomanPaul]

Well I am not willing to stop asking swtor untill they do that simple

[DarkTergon]

Well I am not willing to stop asking swtor untill they do that simple

 

No harm in asking, but it'll be like banging your head on the wall or asking trump or boris to do something intelligent, chances are it probaly won't happen

[Phazonfreak]

People (including myself) have been asking for Vaylin as a companion for a very long time. The fact that genocide boy gets a free pass is the most annoying part of it.

 

There is a big difference between the character arch of Arcann and Vaylin:

 

 

Arcann certainly does not get a free pass but has to constantly explain himself for his actions. Allowing him to live is cited as one of the main motivations for the Order of Zildrog to destroy the Alliance, even when you have been nothing but supportive to the reconstruction efforts on Zakuul.

 

Vaylin on the other hand makes it very clear (even as a force ghost) that she does not want to be helped or redeemed but only lusts for unshackled power to take revenge on her family and the entire galaxy. She is an irredeemable character and having her walking around with the Outsider would not make any sense at all

 

 

Next thing will be people demanding Valkorion to become a redeemable companion walking around with your character...

Edited April 20, 2020 by Phazonfreak

[OldVengeance]

She didn't want your help. Also she clearly needed more than love because Senya loved her and it wasn't enough.

[SteveTheCynic]

Well I am not willing to stop asking swtor untill they do that simple

Please do not become the next Tracer Missile Guy. Please.

 

Let. It. Go.

[DarkTergon]

Please do not become the next Tracer Missile Guy. Please.

 

Let. It. Go.

 

Couldn;t resist

 

[Blackvinils]

I believe that the debate about whether Vaylin is worthy of being "saved" or not can continue indefinitely, because everyone has their own opinion. But it also suggests that she really should have had an alternative to death, and this is a serious omission. But this is a bit off topic.

 

As for the current situation with her, I would like to ask why not just add it to the list of bonus companions?:rak_02:

 

We have a terminal or you could unlock it with a redeem code or give it out as a reward for some difficult event. There are a lot of ways to get her, without including it in the plot.

 

There are indeed many posts about this on various forums,so yes, I support the author of this post, but it would be great if we got Vaylin, at least, as a bonus non-story companion.:rak_03:

 

#VaylinBonusComp

Edited April 22, 2020 by Blackvinils

[gamephil]

I have grown very tired of these stories, but I tolerate them if there's anything good in them at all. There wasn't here. Mental illness being used to define a villain, abuse being used not to make a well-rounded character that you can interact with in various ways but instead just to make a character you have to kill, all the "too broken to live" nonsense, I could stand a lot less of. She shouldn't need to die because she's too broken, she should only die because she's bringing down the base and there's no other way, but after Senya's, "She's broken, I see that now", I just have no faith that's what the writers were going for. We should be allowed to consistently and completely reject the abuse rhetoric we hear from Valkorion, and Lana (or it revealed the monster, bull puckey, Beniko, way to support her abusive dad and abusers everywhere who use the same argument to justify themselves, but thanks for trying, I guess). And then they make us do the same ourselves, without remorse, use her abuse against her, manipulate and humiliate her, and then they dare to give us an LS line about how we gave her every chance?

 

Here and there they did better. Chapter 9 was solid. It doesn't make up for the sheer bad they put into the rest.

 

Her story took everything bad about the "crazy lady in the attic" and forced us to treat her the same. I really wish they wouldn't let that stand. But, I expect they're going to, because leaving our "heroes" having tortured a torture victim, and were so stupid as to be responsible for millions of deaths because we couldn't be bothered to do anything but what the real enemy told us we had to, and as a direct result the Fleet went berserk, is more important than one more resurrection or retcon. And with the elements right there to do it, they could give us something better, but "oh the story would be hurt!" and there's no "responsible" way to bring her back.

 

If the story wasn't abuse excusing garbage, that might actually matter to me. It was, so it doesn't.

[Estelindis]

I have grown very tired of these stories, but I tolerate them if there's anything good in them at all. There wasn't here. Mental illness being used to define a villain, abuse being used not to make a well-rounded character that you can interact with in various ways but instead just to make a character you have to kill, all the "too broken to live" nonsense, I could stand a lot less of. She shouldn't need to die because she's too broken, she should only die because she's bringing down the base and there's no other way, but after Senya's, "She's broken, I see that now", I just have no faith that's what the writers were going for. We should be allowed to consistently and completely reject the abuse rhetoric we hear from Valkorion, and Lana (or it revealed the monster, bull puckey, Beniko, way to support her abusive dad and abusers everywhere who use the same argument to justify themselves, but thanks for trying, I guess). And then they make us do the same ourselves, without remorse, use her abuse against her, manipulate and humiliate her, and then they dare to give us an LS line about how we gave her every chance?

 

Here and there they did better. Chapter 9 was solid. It doesn't make up for the sheer bad they put into the rest.

 

Her story took everything bad about the "crazy lady in the attic" and forced us to treat her the same. I really wish they wouldn't let that stand. But, I expect they're going to, because leaving our "heroes" having tortured a torture victim, and were so stupid as to be responsible for millions of deaths because we couldn't be bothered to do anything but what the real enemy told us we had to, and as a direct result the Fleet went berserk, is more important than one more resurrection or retcon. And with the elements right there to do it, they could give us something better, but "oh the story would be hurt!" and there's no "responsible" way to bring her back.

 

If the story wasn't abuse excusing garbage, that might actually matter to me. It was, so it doesn't.

I agree with everything you posted here. It's infuriating that the full cast of characters, including the PC, seems to come together to endorse Valkorion's views about so many things, including Vaylin. Of course the PC sometimes gets conversation options that disagree with Valkorion, but I feel these were generally too superficial. Better to be able to ignore him - or superficially don't disagree, but in one's inner mind disagree completely.

 

I daydream about an alternate KotFE/ET in which the PC, in the secrecy of her or his mind, plotted against everything Valkorion did and opposed him in every possible way. In this version of the story, if (for instance) Lana agreed with something Valkorion wanted, we might act like we go along with it, but in our minds we disagree and try to oppose it. Something like Agent Chapter 2, in the sense of saying one thing but thinking another, advancing a plan so secret that we can't risk even a little of our true thoughts leaking out to Valkorion, and certainly can't explain ourselves out loud to anyone ever (since we assume he's always listening).

 

With regard to Vaylin specifically, some people say that a redemption arc for her would've been too repetitive after Arcann's possible redemption arc - but I think this is missing the point. Without ever denying that she did terrible things that hurt millions of people, I don't see redemption as precisely what she needed. I think she needed liberation.

 

In SWTOR, redemption arcs are generally presented as the PC or a mentor figure saying "I believe you can change." When redemption succeeds, it's usually because it makes the other feel worthy of love: it emphasizes the positive qualities still present in that character. On other occasions, attempts at redemption can comes across arrogantly: "You can be saved (if you admit you're wrong and I'm right)." This emphasizes the positive qualities of the would-be redeemer, not those of the person they're trying to save. It shames the object of redemption and is fundamentally two-faced (seeming to open the door to change while really closing it).

 

Consider the scene at the end of KotFE when Senya's love finally reaches Arcann. She mourns for him in spite of everything he did, and without any expectation that he'll change (and thus she'll "win"). She thinks he's gone. There's no grand speech about redemption, no triumphant effort to win him over. She mourns, believing she failed and lost her son forever. That implies he is worthy of being mourned. It also implies she messed up by not managing to save him. This moment of true love and humility is pretty much the only thing that could have made Arcann change. It allows him to give her something back, both his life (that she thought was lost) and hers, when he saves her from Vaylin. The scene is (in my view) the absolute best moment of KotFE (and so fundamentally undermined by the Voss ritual of KotET that I try to ignore that nonsense).

 

Did Vaylin ever get a moment like that? No. Every time Senya seemed to reach out to her, she came across (in my opinion) more like the second type of would-be redeemer, the one who says "admit you're wrong and I'm right - only then will you have a chance." She did not come across to Vaylin like she did to Arcann in his pivotal scene.

 

Redemption scenes broadly treat the figure offering redemption as a source of moral authority, but why would Vaylin trust any source of authority whatsoever? Authority figures abused, neglected, and failed her. If some authority figure tried to offer redemption, she'd answer: "who are you to redeem me?" And the subtext of arrogant attempts at redemption - "you can be saved if you admit you were wrong and become like me" - are so fundamentally controlling that Vaylin would have to reject them. Control was taken away from Vaylin, and personally I interpret many of her random cruel actions as revelling in freedom to do whatever she wants without consequence, without the control of others, simply because she can - every such act rebelling against those who tried to control her in the past.

 

Vaylin's story needed a liberation arc, where she became truly free rather than continually re-fighting the painful struggles of her past and making others suffer alongside her. I think the writing (clumsily) tried to "free" her spirit in the final chapter of KotET, but that was the barest token, nothing like substantial character development - and came after a story that consistently failed to address what she needed (even added to her abuse).

 

Like you, I hate the message that she was "too far gone to be saved." And I hate that the player is given no choice but to use her conditioning, the tool of her abuser, against her. It sickens me that even the most lightsided PCs sometimes seem to take satisfaction in using her control phrase. I wish that the PC could have found some way to reject that tool of Valkorion while also not being straight-up murdered by Vaylin (which does seem the most likely immediate outcome of refusing to use the control phrase). Balancing the need to protect people from Vaylin with a refusal to continue the crimes committed against Vaylin would have been the only legitimate way forward in her liberation arc.

 

I don't think the PC pitying her would have worked, at least not initially. I think the PC being angry at what she suffered might have been the only emotion that could've broken through to her. She is so angry, but no one else (at least, in-game) seems to look at the atrocities committed against her with the righteous rage that is appropriate.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Estelindis

[Blackvinils]

I agree with everything you posted here...

 

Nice answer!:rak_03:

 

I think this supports my theory that Vaylin didn't need "redemption" in the way Arcann understood it, but She could have "changed" in a different way.

 

There could be an approach to "saving" her based not so much on compassion for her as on hatred of what had happened to her, hatred of manipulating her. I believe this is the" dark " equivalent of salvation for her, in which she could have remained alive.

 

Her hatred could be extinguished after the death of her abuser (father), after which she could go her own way and live freely, without fear that someone would try to control her again. I believe, a "liberation" in which she stays alive and begins her new, free and fulfilling life even if she choose to not to join to us,, and this could be a worthy alternative ending for her, even if we never saw her again.

 

But instead we have what we have, but it is wrong, for many reasons. Yes, we should have had an alternative.

 

Meanwhile, we can take Vaylin's lightsaber - maybe this is the one step closer to getting Vaylin as a bonus non story companion?:rak_02:

 

#VaylinBonusComp

Edited April 22, 2020 by Blackvinils

[gamephil]

I agree with everything you posted here. It's infuriating that the full cast of characters, including the PC, seems to come together to endorse Valkorion's views about so many things, including Vaylin. Of course the PC sometimes gets conversation options that disagree with Valkorion, but I feel these were generally too superficial. Better to be able to ignore him - or superficially don't disagree, but in one's inner mind disagree completely.

 

Yeah, all of that would have been good, especially the idea of liberation, not necessarily redemption. I hate just putting in a me, too post but that was a great write up, of what went wrong and what could have been instead, that I had to.

[ShomanPaul]

@Phazonfreak

I would never ask for valkorian to be redeemed because he is the same sith emperor who torchered his mom for months then killed her im just not willing to forgive him.

[Estelindis]

Yeah, all of that would have been good, especially the idea of liberation, not necessarily redemption. I hate just putting in a me, too post but that was a great write up, of what went wrong and what could have been instead, that I had to.

Thanks, it's always nicer to hear "I agree," "I understand," or even "I disagree," vs. radio silence.

 

Nice answer!:rak_03:

Thanks!

There could be an approach to "saving" her based not so much on compassion for her as on hatred of what had happened to her, hatred of manipulating her. I believe this is the" dark " equivalent of salvation for her, in which she could have remained alive.

 

Her hatred could be extinguished after the death of her abuser (father), after which she could go her own way and live freely, without fear that someone would try to control her again. I believe, a "liberation" in which she stays alive and begins her new, free and fulfilling life even if she choose to not to join to us,, and this could be a worthy alternative ending for her, even if we never saw her again.

 

But instead we have what we have, but it is wrong, for many reasons. Yes, we should have had an alternative

You raise a really good point about hatred being a "dark" equivalent of salvation. It makes me consider the potential for the PC to go down a dark path in response to what happened to Vaylin, even if s/he has been light-sided up to this point. Anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering, etc. Imagine the artistry of Vaylin's liberation arc potentially becoming the PC's corruption arc, a reversal of roles maybe even eventually leading to Vaylin telling the PC "you can change." Until you said this, I'd been thinking of the PC's anger as righteous outrage, but that ignores the role anger plays in Force philosophy.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Estelindis

[OldVengeance]

She also needs a therapist

 

She almost certainly would have tried to kill them too.

[OldVengeance]

With regard to Vaylin specifically, some people say that a redemption arc for her would've been too repetitive after Arcann's possible redemption arc - but I think this is missing the point. Without ever denying that she did terrible things that hurt millions of people, I don't see redemption as precisely what she needed. I think she needed liberation.

 

I'm not sure I see what the benefit of Vaylin being "liberated" without also being "redeemed" would be. The fact that Arcann and Vaylin both murdered millions is an inescapable fact about their characters that just can't be brushed aside.

 

In Arcann's case, either he faces justice for his crimes or he realizes the magnitude of his atrocities. What would Vaylin do? Just leave and walk off into the sunset without acknowledging the harm she caused?

 

Consider the scene at the end of KotFE when Senya's love finally reaches Arcann. She mourns for him in spite of everything he did, and without any expectation that he'll change (and thus she'll "win"). She thinks he's gone. There's no grand speech about redemption, no triumphant effort to win him over. She mourns, believing she failed and lost her son forever. That implies he is worthy of being mourned. It also implies she messed up by not managing to save him. This moment of true love and humility is pretty much the only thing that could have made Arcann change. It allows him to give her something back, both his life (that she thought was lost) and hers, when he saves her from Vaylin. The scene is (in my view) the absolute best moment of KotFE (and so fundamentally undermined by the Voss ritual of KotET that I try to ignore that nonsense).

 

Did Vaylin ever get a moment like that? No. Every time Senya seemed to reach out to her, she came across (in my opinion) more like the second type of would-be redeemer, the one who says "admit you're wrong and I'm right - only then will you have a chance." She did not come across to Vaylin like she did to Arcann in his pivotal scene.

 

When Senya finds Arcann in the Battle of Odessen and says "I wanted to save you," she's presumably talking about more than just his life. When Arcann overhears Senya admit her failings, she was talking to Vaylin. Vaylin heard everything that Arcann heard. Later in the shuttle she asks the Outlander to "Let me help Arcann become the man he was meant to be." I don't think it's correct to say that Senya had no expectation for Arcann to change. I also am pretty confident that Senya showing grief for Vaylin would only make Vaylin take sadistic delight in it. In fact, that's basically exactly what happen can happen in Chapter 9 of Kotet if Arcann is dead. Senya also tried to tell Vaylin that she was "better than this" so it's not like Vaylin doesn't know that Senya believes she has (what Senya considers) positive qualities. But Vaylin both disagrees with Senya and rejects the importance of those qualities in the first place. In fact, this seems to have been consistent for much of her life. In chapter 7 of Kotfe, Senya says that Vaylin and her brothers considered her "weak" even when they were children.

 

Control was taken away from Vaylin, and personally I interpret many of her random cruel actions as revelling in freedom to do whatever she wants without consequence, without the control of others, simply because she can - every such act rebelling against those who tried to control her in the past.

 

Vaylin's story needed a liberation arc, where she became truly free rather than continually re-fighting the painful struggles of her past and making others suffer alongside her. I think the writing (clumsily) tried to "free" her spirit in the final chapter of KotET, but that was the barest token, nothing like substantial character development - and came after a story that consistently failed to address what she needed (even added to her abuse).

 

When Senya first confronted Vaylin on Asylum, she tried to appeal to her sense of freedom. If LS Arcann confronts Vaylin, he also tries to appeal to her breaking free. If DS Arcann confronts Vaylin, he tries to appeal to her getting revenge on the object of their common hatred, and she still rejects him. I don't know what anyone (especially an enemy) could say that she would not interpret as an attempt to control her, at least not without years of therapy. Even before the horrific torture she endured, Vaylin was someone who didn't believe in restraint. And I don't think it's a coincidence that both Arcann and Vaylin adopted many of the Sith-like values (such as a belief that strength entitles one to power) that come with being raised by Valkorion.

 

I don't think the PC pitying her would have worked, at least not initially. I think the PC being angry at what she suffered might have been the only emotion that could've broken through to her. She is so angry, but no one else (at least, in-game) seems to look at the atrocities committed against her with the righteous rage that is appropriate.

 

Who's to say this would have worked either? I could just as easily see her becoming even angrier that someone else dare claim to be angry about her own experiences.

Edited April 24, 2020 by OldVengeance

[SteveTheCynic]

With regard to Vaylin specifically, some people say that a redemption arc for her would've been too repetitive after Arcann's possible redemption arc - but I think this is missing the point. Without ever denying that she did terrible things that hurt millions of people, I don't see redemption as precisely what she needed. I think she needed liberation.

It is reasonable to suggest that KotET VII (Nathema 1) *is* the end of a liberation arc that begins long before, but, if you like, "takes flight" during KotET III (on the Gravestone) and above all during KotET VI (the party), but it's not what we normally expect from a liberation arc. I think there's a big expectation of "liberation arc" being a subset of the more general "redemption arc", where the character is liberated from the bad stuff that made him or her do bad things, and is therefore *can* be redeemed. (Arcann's story is a bit like this.)

 

In Vaylin's case, she is liberated from the bad stuff (the conditioning above all), but not from the fall-out of it. Either we consider that it's a partial liberation, or we say that in fact she has come to *enjoy* being malicious and vengeful and so on, and the implied control imposed by the conditioning was holding her back.

 

Splitting hairs, perhaps. Dunno.

[Blackvinils]

I'm not sure I see what the benefit of Vaylin being "liberated" without also being "redeemed" would be. The fact that Arcann and Vaylin both murdered millions is an inescapable fact about their characters that just can't be brushed aside.

 

In Arcann's case, either he faces justice for his crimes or he realizes the magnitude of his atrocities. What would Vaylin do? Just leave and walk off into the sunset without acknowledging the harm she caused?

 

I suppose in the case of Vaylin, her "redemption" would have been somewhat different than in the case of Arcann.

 

For example, I could have assumed that she not have admitted her guilt for the deaths of millions, if she really had killed millions, in which I doubt, because there were no hints of just such a large number of victims, except Voss, but, for example, she could have taken a more pragmatic conclusion, admitting, that was a waste of time and inefficient methods to achieve the objectives;

 

I may be wrong, but when DS Arcann is presented with a decisive "judgment" , then reproaching him for his responsibility for numerous deaths is only one of the options, and here I am inclined to believe that we can kill him not only out of a sense of righteous revenge for those millions of lives, but simply because he was an obstacle for us to obtain power.

 

When Senya finds Arcann in the Battle of Odessen and says "I wanted to save you," she's presumably talking about more than just his life. When Arcann overhears Senya admit her failings, she was talking to Vaylin. Vaylin heard everything that Arcann heard. Later in the shuttle she asks the Outlander to "Let me help Arcann become the man he was meant to be." I don't think it's correct to say that Senya had no expectation for Arcann to change. I also am pretty confident that Senya showing grief for Vaylin would only make Vaylin take sadistic delight in it. In fact, that's basically exactly what happen can happen in Chapter 9 of Kotet if Arcann is dead. Senya also tried to tell Vaylin that she was "better than this" so it's not like Vaylin doesn't know that Senya believes she has (what Senya considers) positive qualities. But Vaylin both disagrees with Senya and rejects the importance of those qualities in the first place. In fact, this seems to have been consistent for much of her life. In chapter 7 of Kotfe, Senya says that Vaylin and her brothers considered her "weak" even when they were children.

 

I think, Yes, Senya really wanted to do more than just save a life and I wouldn't say that she couldn't have expected it, but still, that doesn't change the fact, that Arcann did get help and this is not just verbal help, but every time, when Senya started contacting Vaylin, they were constantly separated and they have hindered by something, whether it was the explosion on the flagship or the explosion of the shuttle's engine on Ord Mantell. This leads me to believe that Vaylin did not always immediately refuse at least some help from her mother, she had moments of reflection before they were both interrupted by factors from outside, which I have mentioned above.

Could Vaylin have experienced the pleasure of her mother's grief - yes, but I assume that this pleasure is not so much because Vaylin likes to enjoy suffering, but because Vaylin is happy that the mother is aware of the consequences of her actions, because of which Vaylin has reason to hate her.

I could agree that all this is the result of long-term influence on her in this way, but I also will not deny that part of the directness of Vaylin's actions, her attitude and reaction to what is happening around her is consequences of the rushed narrative, because if she could be shown from the other side, it would take more time in the story, and then the plot would have to be expanded, because 9 chapters are not enough for us to clearly see the alternative.

 

When Senya first confronted Vaylin on Asylum, she tried to appeal to her sense of freedom. If LS Arcann confronts Vaylin, he also tries to appeal to her breaking free. If DS Arcann confronts Vaylin, he tries to appeal to her getting revenge on the object of their common hatred, and she still rejects him. I don't know what anyone (especially an enemy) could say that she would not interpret as an attempt to control her, at least not without years of therapy. Even before the horrific torture she endured, Vaylin was someone who didn't believe in restraint. And I don't think it's a coincidence that both Arcann and Vaylin adopted many of the Sith-like values (such as a belief that strength entitles one to power) that come with being raised by Valkorion.

 

I think, i would not rule out that when Senya called Vaylin to a sense of freedom, in the Asylum, they were forced to separate in the end, because Senya had to get to Gravestone in time, and who knows how things would have turned out in the end, if they had had more time for heart-to-heart conversations. The same thing with LS Arcann - he tried, Yes, but couple "let me help you" phrases was clearly not enough and again, they were interrupted by the appearance of Outlander and Valky along with it. When DS Arcann opposed her, she might have had reason to distrust him, especially when she found out about her weakness for the code phrase, and DS Arcann was a power-hungry man, even in KOTFE in later chapters, he started literally giving Vaylin orders, as if she were just his subordinate and not his own sister. This gives me the right to believe that Vaylin had a more pronounced motive to engage in a confrontation with DS Arcann.

I am also more inclined to think that before the torture, Vaylin had very little control over her abilities and did not fully understand how to use them, because of this, often succumbing to negative emotions, due not so much because not so much Vaylin was consciously unrestrained, as was due to a lack of knowledge.

 

Who's to say this would have worked either? I could just as easily see her becoming even angrier that someone else dare claim to be angry about her own experiences.

 

Just guessing here about LS, but if there was a chance to end her story arc differently, why not, who knows? Especially if it could be was done well and competently. If, for example, for this purpose, at least only JC or JK would be needed, necessarily on the light side of the Force.

 

And why would she could be must even more angry, because that someone could be angry about what happened to her? (If i understand you correctly)

Edited April 24, 2020 by Blackvinils

[OldVengeance]

I suppose in the case of Vaylin, her "redemption" would have been somewhat different than in the case of Arcann.

 

For example, I could have assumed that she not have admitted her guilt for the deaths of millions, if she really had killed millions, in which I doubt, because there were no hints of just such a large number of victims, except Voss, but, for example, she could have taken a more pragmatic conclusion, admitting, that was a waste of time and inefficient methods to achieve the objectives;

 

 

Those five planets that Arcann had ordered destroyed were bombed by her. She was the one who picked them.

 

I may be wrong, but when DS Arcann is presented with a decisive "judgment" , then reproaching him for his responsibility for numerous deaths is only one of the options, and here I am inclined to believe that we can kill him not only out of a sense of righteous revenge for those millions of lives, but simply because he was an obstacle for us to obtain power.

 

Well yes, but I meant that he "faces justice" from a meta perspective. LS Outlanders can kill him for the cause of justice and DS Outlanders kill him because he's an obstacle to their rise to power but the outcome is essentially the same.

 

I think, Yes, Senya really wanted to do more than just save a life and I wouldn't say that she couldn't have expected it, but still, that doesn't change the fact, that Arcann did get help and this is not just verbal help, but every time, when Senya started contacting Vaylin, they were constantly separated and they have hindered by something, whether it was the explosion on the flagship or the explosion of the shuttle's engine on Ord Mantell. This leads me to believe that Vaylin did not always immediately refuse at least some help from her mother, she had moments of reflection before they were both interrupted by factors from outside, which I have mentioned above.

Could Vaylin have experienced the pleasure of her mother's grief - yes, but I assume that this pleasure is not so much because Vaylin likes to enjoy suffering, but because Vaylin is happy that the mother is aware of the consequences of her actions, because of which Vaylin has reason to hate her.

 

Vaylin seemed pretty consistent in refusing her mother's help at every turn. She even declared on Arcann's flagship that "I'll never be what you want." And she also seemed very much to enjoy the suffering of others, not just Senya.

 

I think, i would not rule out that when Senya called Vaylin to a sense of freedom, in the Asylum, they were forced to separate in the end, because Senya had to get to Gravestone in time, and who knows how things would have turned out in the end, if they had had more time for heart-to-heart conversations. The same thing with LS Arcann - he tried, Yes, but couple "let me help you" phrases was clearly not enough and again, they were interrupted by the appearance of Outlander and Valky along with it. When DS Arcann opposed her, she might have had reason to distrust him, especially when she found out about her weakness for the code phrase, and DS Arcann was a power-hungry man, even in KOTFE in later chapters, he started literally giving Vaylin orders, as if she were just his subordinate and not his own sister. This gives me the right to believe that Vaylin had a more pronounced motive to engage in a confrontation with DS Arcann.

 

I suppose we'll never know for sure what would have happened if the Outlander hadn't appeared to interrupt Arcann and Vaylin's duel, but it seemed to me that Vaylin had already rejected Arcann's entreaties when she attacked him. The fact that she left when the Outlander first appeared also suggests she could have bailed at any time.

 

 

And why would she could be must even more angry, because that someone could be angry about what happened to her? (If i understand you correctly)

 

Because she might interpret that as her hated enemy claiming to understand what happened to her when they weren't there and didn't suffer it themselves. People, especially angry and traumatized people ( who are corrupted by the Dark Side), don't always react in the most rational way.

[Blackvinils]

Those five planets that Arcann had ordered destroyed were bombed by her. She was the one who picked them.

 

Yes, but i think that if these were empty planets or Vaylin started criticizing this orders, Arcann could just as easily have bombed them himself, just by pressing buttons from the control panel on the Throne. I don't deny that they are both involved, but I wouldn't blame Vaylin here any more than Arcann.

 

Well yes, but I meant that he "faces justice" from a meta perspective. LS Outlanders can kill him for the cause of justice and DS Outlanders kill him because he's an obstacle to their rise to power but the outcome is essentially the same.

 

I see a similar situation here, the same as with Vaylin in Chapter 8, only without an alternative for her - they both either die, or still participate in the plot alive, I see the difference in that Arcann could eventually regret what he did, and Vaylin could become more pragmatic and rational, being on the DS and maybe she would not immediately make certain conclusions after what she did, but she can did it later, send to us message on mail, for example.

In the end, if she stay alive - who knows, maybe she could do something good, without realizing it - for example, destroy all the Heralds of Zildrog, since they were at the disposal of SCORPIO, which Vaylin also wanted to take revenge on. I mean, Arcann and Vaylin - they both can't bring back the millions of lives they took, but each of them could have done something by being "changed".

 

Vaylin seemed pretty consistent in refusing her mother's help at every turn. She even declared on Arcann's flagship that "I'll never be what you want." And she also seemed very much to enjoy the suffering of others, not just Senya.

 

I think that enjoying the suffering of others is a common occurrence for some DS users, and personally I would not single out Vaylin in any particular way. (she reminds me DS Jaessa here)

Also, when Vaylin refused mother's help, she had moments of reflection, after which they both were interrupted or they were forced to split up, and if this was even more or less harmonious in KOTFE, then in KOTET I am more inclined to consider it due to the small story timing , after that the inability to show an alternative for her.

 

I suppose we'll never know for sure what would have happened if the Outlander hadn't appeared to interrupt Arcann and Vaylin's duel, but it seemed to me that Vaylin had already rejected Arcann's entreaties when she attacked him. The fact that she left when the Outlander first appeared also suggests she could have bailed at any time.

 

It's very unfortunate, but I still believe that she needed to vent at least some of her anger then, cool down, calm down a little, get a little exhausted, during the fight with Arcann, after which they could continue the conversation (I see this as more real for LS Arcann). The reason for her escape, I'm inclined to believe that when Outlander appeared, he could have used a code phrase, and this is what Vaylin feared.

 

Because she might interpret that as her hated enemy claiming to understand what happened to her when they weren't there and didn't suffer it themselves. People, especially angry and traumatized people ( who are corrupted by the Dark Side), don't always react in the most rational way.

 

Well, I guess it could also depend on how it's be interpreted by Outlander itself. In addition, I think, that understanding of "manipulation" over her and hatred of the very idea of "manipulation" and "captivity" are different things. I might have assumed that such phrases might have appeared in SI and IA.

As for her reaction, I would not rule out that her reaction could be more rational, as well as her actions, if they depended on a certain sequence of certain decisions that we could make. I would also not rule out some help from Thexann's spirit, if it really was him and not a hologram and his role could be more than what we have in the end.

[JediQuaker]

The only way to "redeem" Vaylin would be to lock her up in a padded cell. 🙂

 

Edit - or just send her to live on a farm like an unwanted dog. 😉

Edited April 26, 2020 by JediQuaker