Group finder changes that will help foster a better community

[DarkestMicheal]

 

** It may be marginally better to pull that group around the corner, but they can be AoE'd where they start at, without LOS, especially if there's a tank. Also of course, different people seem to have different ideas of where they should be pulled to.

 

I've seen this quite a lot lately, and people end up in different places splitting the group of mobs anyway...lol. I find that communication has broken down a lot in the game lately, when in pugs, the amount of people who don't listen, or just seem to have turned off is painful at times.

[SelenaCat]

I simpler thing would just be if the GF would tell you what the FP is before you hit Accept or Decline. Even better, I'd like it to pop up and say something like "A group is available for [insert Flashpoint], would you like to join? ".

This would likely just have folks queuing for all FP's, but declining any but the easy ones. At least now, the vast majority will at least give the group a shot before leaving if it's a rough one.

[SoonerJBD]

Can I just say people not CCing or stealthing past stuff doesnt make them incompetent, some people including myself dislike it when groups skip past everything, I dont pay for a sub to skip past half the mobs in a flashpoint.

 

Imcompetency would be if they actually couldnt clear a group of mobs for whatever reason or an easy boss fight like the firts boss on hammer station.

 

I do agree about the type of people that just leap into groups willy nilly like the sentinal you mentioned. If your gonna not skip, people need to atleast do it sensibly and co-ordinated instead of just randomly jumping into mobs.

 

When everyone else on the group wants to skip, and you pull every group, you are being inconsiderate.

[SoonerJBD]

Some people get all LOS crazy in Hammer Station. (And, btw, many new players have no idea what LOS means.)

There's no group in HS that really "requires" LOS - even that first "big pull"**

As a Gunslinger, I'd say that every mob in HS is close enough together for AoE. Often times the LOS-oholics just confuse things by trying to LOS everything. But, I've often been in VM HS without any LOS'ing at all and did just fine.

 

That level 20-something Sentinel may have had a point. HS seems overrun by LOS'ing rushers lately. 🙂

 

** It may be marginally better to pull that group around the corner, but they can be AoE'd where they start at, without LOS, especially if there's a tank. Also of course, different people seem to have different ideas of where they should be pulled to.

 

It depends entirely on what class/spec you are running. You can AOE a wide area with a Gunslinger/Sniper. A lot of melee classes can’t do so. And keeping the mobs bunched together also helps damage mitigation abilities that rely on enemies being within a specific area.

 

Yes, you can get through without LOS if everyone knows what they are doing and is decently geared. But I specifically mentioned the problem in reference to groups with multiple lower level players. If you are lvl 20, it can already be difficult to get through those big pulls alive. If you don’t LOS, it is virtually a guaranteed wipe. There is a reason people LOS that group. While I have seen people go a little overboard on LOS pulls, the alternative is far worse because it gets everyone killed.

[LD_Little_Dragon]

For example the actual problem (as opposed to it just taking longer due to lack of dps) of having sub 75 players in certain flashpoints is down to mechanics, what's the point in having a 30 second res timer if you can queue a healer that doesn't even combat res yet, or a tank without taunt or threat control? The original flashpoints were crafted to ensure that players would have the tools they needed to complete them at the level they became available.

 

They've already fixed this by limiting flashpoints to chars at or above the level they were originally designed for. If you get teamed with lowbie it will for a for a flashpoint a max level should be able to solo with a companion (or at least duo).

 

The problem is there are a lot of maxed players who are used to powering through things without paying any attention to basic mechanics. They'll play out hammer as though it's a full team of 75's, instead of they team they actually got, even if it's them and 3 sub-30s. A team of non-maxed players needs to actually do some mechanics, cc's, interrupts, proper kill order, and things like that.

 

The worst part of it is that all those level 75's who can't run with lowbies are the ones who waltz into a MM fp and fail hard, but it's never their fault since they're [sarcasm] such awesome players [/sarcasm].

[LightstormGaming]

When everyone else on the group wants to skip, and you pull every group, you are being inconsiderate.

 

yeah but alot of thje time no one communicates, they just assume its normal gameplay which is not. If everyone wants to skip I dont mind, But I always tell people I dont like doing it and quite alot of the time I do get groups that say "Okay, we can kill them if ya like"

 

What irriatates me the most when people skip bosses.

[jedimasterjac]

yeah but alot of thje time no one communicates, they just assume its normal gameplay which is not. If everyone wants to skip I dont mind, But I always tell people I dont like doing it and quite alot of the time I do get groups that say "Okay, we can kill them if ya like"

 

What irriatates me the most when people skip bosses.

 

I'm in a very similar position. I find MM FPs to be fun, and I actually enjoy playing this game. I do think skips are "big brain" strats, I just think they're boring and exploitative.

[LightstormGaming]

I'm in a very similar position. I find MM FPs to be fun, and I actually enjoy playing this game. I do think skips are "big brain" strats, I just think they're boring and exploitative.

 

There not big brain strats tho xD if you skip half the mobs in an FP when ya have a tank, I have to doubt that a tank is actually able to tank xD

[Screaming_Ziva]

Because then we know if it's random or not. Generally people 75 will queue 1/23 Hammer Station and people < 75 queue 1/23 KDY.

 

When there is team composition like this ...

75 23/23

45 1/23

75 23/23

75 23/23

(which happens a lot), you are guaranteed to be going to KDY. And what happens then is the group falls apart because people drop.

I don't think anyone only checks KDY. Low levels only have three (I believe) choices and that's why it seems like you get KDY a lot when a low level is in your group.

 

However, people will also use this to their advantage and make GF really be a mess. I always check all boxes when running GF but there will now be people who would only click accept if they see a level 75 with 1/23 selected because they want to just to HS runs. You would start getting a lot more declined GF pops when you're waiting for a FP.

[SoonerJBD]

yeah but alot of thje time no one communicates, they just assume its normal gameplay which is not. If everyone wants to skip I dont mind, But I always tell people I dont like doing it and quite alot of the time I do get groups that say "Okay, we can kill them if ya like"

 

What irriatates me the most when people skip bosses.

 

It is normal gameplay to skip. The vast majority of groups do so. If you want to deviate from what groups do the majority of the time, it is on you to communicate that. And the time to do it definitely isn’t when someone has already CC’d the toon and walked by and you decide to engage.

Edited April 6, 2020 by SoonerJBD

[JediQuaker]

It depends entirely on what class/spec you are running. You can AOE a wide area with a Gunslinger/Sniper. A lot of melee classes can’t do so. And keeping the mobs bunched together also helps damage mitigation abilities that rely on enemies being within a specific area.

 

Yes, you can get through without LOS if everyone knows what they are doing and is decently geared. But I specifically mentioned the problem in reference to groups with multiple lower level players. If you are lvl 20, it can already be difficult to get through those big pulls alive. If you don’t LOS, it is virtually a guaranteed wipe. There is a reason people LOS that group. While I have seen people go a little overboard on LOS pulls, the alternative is far worse because it gets everyone killed.

Well, I did say that LOS can be easier. And, yes, it may depend upon the make up of the group, but that's true whether you LOS or not.

The main problem I find lately is that there are 3 "levels" to the LOS at that point**. All of them require that the players know how to use their AoE, etc (imho).

The first level would be no LOS. This works fine if there's a tank or Guardian, etc, that can bundle up the group for AoE.

The second - and I'd say best - is to pull the mobs so they group up at the first corner. This not only works to bundle the mobs just fine, but it also is more "central" and allows other group members to join in more quickly and safely, if they didn't know LOS was going to happen.

The third is when some people try to pull the mobs even further back to the second corner. This is not only not necessary, but it often ends up stretching the mobs out instead of bundling them up, and often confuses things so that the team members don't know where to "be".

 

** The same sort of choices apply at the second "big pull" later. Although there, there is a 4th option to just pull the common mobs and not attack the gold droid. Then skip the gold by using the elevator (slicing).

 

The bottom line is that there are too many people who go into GF flashpoints thinking that there's only one way - their way - to do the flashpoint.

Edited April 8, 2020 by JediQuaker

[jedimasterjac]

Well, I did say that LOS can be easier. And, yes, it may depend upon the make up of the group, but that's true whether you LOS or not.

 

I'm going to second that LOS can be really, really useful; Jedi Guardians don't have the best AOE threat gen, and a good LOS can be the different from holding aggro on everything and having mobs targeting three different people.

[Kissakias]

why do i need to know others how many FPs have marked? fffsssss

why to mark if i want o do 75 lvl or 40 lvl FPs since lvl has nothing to when enter to it?

about the video convs, ok i see a poin to add it.

[StrikePrice]

Can I just say people not CCing or stealthing past stuff doesnt make them incompetent, some people including myself dislike it when groups skip past everything, I dont pay for a sub to skip past half the mobs in a flashpoint.

This is precisely my point. Some people *want* to clear and some people *want* to skip. The game should facilitate both types of players. Simply let me indicate when I queue if I want a slow run or a fast run and show that in the group finder pop. That way, everyone can see ... "okay, this is 4 people that want a fast run" "okay, half the people want a slow run".

[LD_Little_Dragon]

It would be simpler just to have a bonus boss/no bonus boss check mark.

 

I get skipping the bonus boss in flashpoints like Taral V where it really does take a fair amount of extra time to do the staged quests to get it, but people skip the easy to get/easy to kill bonus bosses like mando raiders and korriban all the time, even when they've already gotten the kill count and just have to go to the boss area. It's just weird when these are bosses that drop gear and achievements.

[denavin]

It is normal gameplay to skip. The vast majority of groups do so. If you want to deviate from what groups do the majority of the time, it is on you to communicate that. And the time to do it definitely isn’t when someone has already CC’d the toon and walked by and you decide to engage.

 

And this is why I don't group.....

 

It is NOT normal Game Play to Skip. It IS Lazy game play to Skip. Even playing solo, I kill EVERY mob in a zone. Every boss, I never skip ANYTHING, including the Cut Scenes.

 

Its NOT a RACE to see who gets to the END first.

 

I can't group with people like this. I want to play the GAME, the whole game and not just the last parts. So I avoid groups simply because of skipping and rushing to the end. This is WHY Most people in SWToR prefer to SOLO and avoid groups.

Edited April 9, 2020 by denavin

[KendraP]

Can't we just agree that some (personally I'd argue most) people who have done the same FP dozens or hundreds of times over the last near decade aren't into killing every mob for the 200th time, but that there are people who do enjoy killing the mobs and watching the cutscenes in full either because its their first time or because they enjoy it for whatever reason?

 

Must everyones playstyle be the "right" playstyle?

[JediQuaker]

It is normal gameplay to skip. The vast majority of groups do so. If you want to deviate from what groups do the majority of the time, it is on you to communicate that. And the time to do it definitely isn’t when someone has already CC’d the toon and walked by and you decide to engage.

I would agree that it is "normal" gameplay, and the majority of groups do so, but that's mainly because most people just go along with whatever the group is doing. And, unfortunately, many people are afraid of being kicked from the group if they don't comply.

 

I now think that if you had a separate queue for non-rushers, it would be quite popular - especially among new players. I'd know I'd use it (plus others).

Edited April 10, 2020 by JediQuaker

[Lhancelot]

Can't we just agree that some (personally I'd argue most) people who have done the same FP dozens or hundreds of times over the last near decade aren't into killing every mob for the 200th time, but that there are people who do enjoy killing the mobs and watching the cutscenes in full either because its their first time or because they enjoy it for whatever reason?

 

Must everyones playstyle be the "right" playstyle?

 

I agree with this. No one is lazy or bad or dumb for killing all mobs or skipping them. As Eminem once said, It's a matter of taste.

[jedimasterjac]

And this is why I don't group.....

 

It is NOT normal Game Play to Skip. It IS Lazy game play to Skip. Even playing solo, I kill EVERY mob in a zone. Every boss, I never skip ANYTHING, including the Cut Scenes.

 

Its NOT a RACE to see who gets to the END first.

 

I can't group with people like this. I want to play the GAME, the whole game and not just the last parts. So I avoid groups simply because of skipping and rushing to the end. This is WHY Most people in SWToR prefer to SOLO and avoid groups.

 

Do most people in SWTOR prefer to "SOLO" and avoid groups, or are you just projecting your own preferences onto "most" of the playerbase?

[Tofu_Shark]

The group finder in it's current form causes social problems. The following features would fix that:

 

1. 75 only queue. Ability to add yourself to both queues (75 only and 74 & under) and take either that pops.

2. Ability to mark "fast run" or "slow run" (slow run = watching cut scenes and not skipping)

3. Ability to see how many locations (1/23 or 23/23 for example) each person has selected.

 

The slow popping problem with a 75 only queue is solved by allowing a toon to queue both and decide when it pops.

 

 

1. Level doesn't equate to skill. This also punishes players that are playing story in sequence and/or use the White Acute Module, as they won't reach 75 for a very long time, which is exactly what Bioware did with ops now, by making them gated at Level 70.
   
2. This will make queues longer by orders of magnitude.
   
3. This will paint targets on the backs of players that have only selected a specific FP or group of FPs for retaliation, or point out the ones that only do the ones that the farmers prefer and incentivize them stop using Group Finder altogether and just queue with each other, diluting the pool of people using Group Finder in general.
   

 

I simpler thing would just be if the GF would tell you what the FP is before you hit Accept or Decline. Even better, I'd like it to pop up and say something like "A group is available for [insert Flashpoint], would you like to join? ".

No, if players are that picky, they can only select the FPs they want and queue for those, forgoing the weekly. Story sequence players have to forgo it already.

 

If you cannot negotiate between 4 people to do bonus, watch cutscenes, etc., or not, then you have bigger problems. You have to talk to people. And if you all can't agree, you have the option to leave, or vote kick the person who is being difficult. You queue for a random encounter and are eligible for the most rewards as a reward for the risk of grouping with players of variable skill and gear levels as well as the risk of not knowing if you will get an easy or hard flashpoint. No, I don't believe group finder should be restructured to allow the kind of manipulation you are proposing. I don't think players should receive 2 extra FP purple gear crates (plus extra frags for role in need) merely by doing speedruns of Hammer Station.

Well said! I wholeheartedly agree with you.

 

It's not that they are not fun. I agree with you. The problem with them is they contain elements that don't work well in a pick up group setting. Nathama for example has a boss fight that has mechanics that are too difficult for a PUG (same with Blood Hunt).

 

Probability of success in PUG:

 

Hammer station: 100% ... I can solo vet mode with my companion

Blood Hunt: 25% (3 out of 4 PUGs that attempt this FP fail to kill Shae)

 

 

Obviously, you no longer play the game.

Can I see your figures?

 

People just need to have the patience to go over mechanics before the fight. It doesn't take that long. There is always the chance you will wind up with a player that's not good at following directions, refuses to, or is unskilled though, but that's the risk and doesn't happen too often.

 

One problem with SWTOR is that there is no group voice chat. It may be nice to interact with the group, but for most people, stopping to type out instructions, etc, is way too time consuming. By the time a 1 finger hunt&peck'er types out "I'm new to this flashpoint", half the group is already attacking the second trash mob. 🙂

I know there are some keyboard warriors that seem to be able to type entire paragraphs while playing, but that's not the norm.

 

I often play an FPS that has built-in team voice chat. It's a world of difference when people actually communicate while playing.

 

It would nice if, in SWTOR, at least the group leader could use voice chat to explain tactics or whatever to the rest of the group. However, SWTOR doesn't have built-in voice chat and Discord or other voice chat apps are not universal.

Not sure if you're using hyperbole, but if you hunt and peck, perhaps you should learn how to type. Also, I keep a text doc of explanations of fights, so all I have to do is copy and paste when someone new comes along. One message is usually enough to explain an FP boss. I learned long ago I hated typing 249 characters over and over and over again.

 

Voicechat would also come with a tradeoff. How many people would be yelling and screaming about things if voicechat was built-in because they have no self control, manners, or etiquette? Also, the ubiquity of other chat services probably made incorporating a voicechat feature largely moot.

 

They've already fixed this by limiting flashpoints to chars at or above the level they were originally designed for. If you get teamed with lowbie it will for a for a flashpoint a max level should be able to solo with a companion (or at least duo).

 

The problem is there are a lot of maxed players who are used to powering through things without paying any attention to basic mechanics. They'll play out hammer as though it's a full team of 75's, instead of they team they actually got, even if it's them and 3 sub-30s. A team of non-maxed players needs to actually do some mechanics, cc's, interrupts, proper kill order, and things like that.

 

The worst part of it is that all those level 75's who can't run with lowbies are the ones who waltz into a MM fp and fail hard, but it's never their fault since they're [sarcasm] such awesome players [/sarcasm].

Increasing the level requirement doesn't actually fix the problem, and it punishes players that prefer to play in story sequence or use the White Acute Module. This is best exemplified with the increasing the level requirements for the Bonus Series missions to prevent the Bonus Series Bug from being triggered. It only worked till they made levels irrelevant in 4.0.

 

And even at max level, CCing, interrupting, and kill priority is still important, unless you think your tank and healer are just punching bags...and a lot of DPS think they are punching bags. Healing generates threat, and because the tank pulls aggro from enemies elite > weak, the healer pulls aggro on those weaker enemies and they start pummeling them, because the DPS is too busy focusing the stronger enemies. If the tank is skilled and has good situational awareness, it forces the tank to protect the healer more than should be necessary. And as a tank main...we %^$&*#@ hate this. We also hate paying more in repairs than we should have to because the DPS doesn't know their damn job.

 

They could gate them on completion of specific content. This would force players to complete that content before being eligible to queue for it. Not sure if this would entail a lot of work to make possible though, and with how stupid easy the game is since they dumbed everything down in 4.0, wouldn't exactly be a skill check unless they undumbed a lot of things, as you can now set your comp to heals and basic attack through the entire story, never learning how to use your abilities. A skill check of some sort is the ideal solution though.

 

It would be simpler just to have a bonus boss/no bonus boss check mark.

 

I get skipping the bonus boss in flashpoints like Taral V where it really does take a fair amount of extra time to do the staged quests to get it, but people skip the easy to get/easy to kill bonus bosses like mando raiders and korriban all the time, even when they've already gotten the kill count and just have to go to the boss area. It's just weird when these are bosses that drop gear and achievements.

It doesn't take a long time if you know the most efficient route. I have successfully talked many groups into taking down Lord Hasper because I know the fastest way to do the terminals phase of the bonus misison. I have on rare occasion seen a bonus boss unlocked and skipped though and been confounded.

 

I really hate skipping regular bosses, minibosses, and stealthing past mobs though it feel so cheap. The only time I don't mind it is when I want to squeeze an FP in before my Renown boost expires and I don't feel like using another or I truly am pressed for time, which doesn't happen often.

[SoonerJBD]

And this is why I don't group.....

 

It is NOT normal Game Play to Skip. It IS Lazy game play to Skip. Even playing solo, I kill EVERY mob in a zone. Every boss, I never skip ANYTHING, including the Cut Scenes.

 

Its NOT a RACE to see who gets to the END first.

 

I can't group with people like this. I want to play the GAME, the whole game and not just the last parts. So I avoid groups simply because of skipping and rushing to the end. This is WHY Most people in SWToR prefer to SOLO and avoid groups.

 

I don’t think you understand what “normal” means. The norm is what most people do. That doesn’t mean normal equals the right or best way to do it. It just means that is what the majority (in this case the vast majority) tend to do be default. I’m not saying you are wrong for wanting g to do it a different way. What I am saying is that you need to communicate your preference to the group and not just attack mobs that everyone else was trying to skip.

[SoonerJBD]

It’s also worth mentioning that you can solo run story mode FPs if you want to kill every mon and watch all the cutscenes, and they still provide decent gear rewards.

[JediQuaker]

Not sure if you're using hyperbole, but if you hunt and peck, perhaps you should learn how to type. Also, I keep a text doc of explanations of fights, so all I have to do is copy and paste when someone new comes along. One message is usually enough to explain an FP boss. I learned long ago I hated typing 249 characters over and over and over again.

That's just silly. That's like saying if you drive a car, you need to learn to be a mechanic. The majority of people have not learned to "type". It's not a skill that is required by daily living - except for those who's job requires it.

Also, of course, some people have physical limitations.

 

Voicechat would also come with a tradeoff. How many people would be yelling and screaming about things if voicechat was built-in because they have no self control, manners, or etiquette? Also, the ubiquity of other chat services probably made incorporating a voicechat feature largely moot.

There is usually a function called "mute", and, of course, "kick" would still work. 🙂

In some games, when you "mute" a player you don't hear them speak, nor do you see things they type.

Edited April 11, 2020 by JediQuaker

[DimmuJanKaarl]

Linking my thread from last week:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=977841

 

They can foster a better community with GF by also changing whether and how the lockout gets applied. The punishment system is completely broken, and rewards simply aren't high enough to necessitate the lockout for dropping.