Master Mode Balance Changes

[EricMusco]

Hey folks,

 

In response to your feedback following the Veteran's Edge removal in 6.1, the team is looking at a broad set of balance changes for Master Mode Operations. These changes ideally will happen even before 6.1.1. With today's PTS patch we have made changes to bolster in MM Ops to help account for the lack of Veteran's Edge. Please take a look on PTS and let us know if MM balance feels better following these changes.

 

Thanks all.

 

-eric

[dready_tv]

Hey folks,

 

In response to your feedback following the Veteran's Edge removal in 6.1, the team is looking at a broad set of balance changes for Master Mode Operations. These changes ideally will happen even before 6.1.1. With today's PTS patch we have made changes to bolster in MM Ops to help account for the lack of Veteran's Edge. Please take a look on PTS and let us know if MM balance feels better following these changes.

 

Thanks all.

 

-eric

 

Okay so you are going back to ruin nims again so every super casual can clear the only content in the game that is supposed to be hard without a single effort? Haha yeah okay good way of destroying the only hard content into another flashpoint, jesus christ.

 

478‬ endurance, 622 mastery & 241 power increase for dps(numbers checked in DF Nim).

Quite the stupid heavy increase on stats. You literally removed every single DPS/Heal check again.

Just added 6.1.1 nim heroes back on the table.

 

What exactly is the point of nim/mm operations if it is scaled back down to a hardmode?

[fire-breath]

That's some impressive feedback coming from you.

Im sure this will help molding master mode to what you want it to be.

 

Try again, now without crying and be constructive?

[nitramsanoj]

Currently nim/mm operations feel challenging again, which was basically not the case since 248er gear was introduced. Even though our raidgroup is not able to clear all nim operations at the moment, motivation is higher than it was for a long time.

We would be happy if the overall nim/mm balancing stays the same and if there were same minor balancing changes to single bosses instead.

Edited March 6, 2020 by nitramsanoj

[SabreDD]

Thank you. That's something. Will test.

[Kilzeus]

How about just fine tune it a bit and then leave the old content as it is. What this game really needs is new content. Sure we're getting Dxun nim soon but what after that, next op in 3 years? I honestly don't care how you tune old ops anymore, but decide on if you're going to make them piss easy or super hard and stick with it, then move on and don't touch them.

[Sandrosw]

The numbers seem reasonably low to keep it still quite challenging, but allowing wider variety of group composition when it comes to different specs or classes. Actually it might be even better than trying to balance each and every boss and rebalancing most of the specs times and again.

[Tuturro]

For the love of God, just keep at least somewhat difficult. NiM is not supposed to be easy. 248 already killed it back then, it's not necessary to do the same mistake again.

[Anyaka_Jedi]

How about just fine tune it a bit and then leave the old content as it is. What this game really needs is new content. Sure we're getting Dxun nim soon but what after that, next op in 3 years? I honestly don't care how you tune old ops anymore, but decide on if you're going to make them piss easy or super hard and stick with it, then move on and don't touch them.

 

I totally agree Nims should be a challenge, but it should be balanced. Also a clear direction from the devs would be helpful one or the other... And if either/or please make the gap between modes less uneven. It shouldnt be that you have sm<<hm<<<<<<<<<<<<nim

[AwesomeTacoCat]

This is a much needed change and I hope this will bring some life back into the raiding community after the removal of stacks.

 

Thank you!

 

Gotta balance out the extraordinarily vocal, yet extremely misguided, forum minority who will b*tch relentlessly about these changes.

Edited March 6, 2020 by AwesomeTacoCat

[Opiklo]

everything is fine as it is....

 

5k more health and its perfectly balanced...

 

stop making it meme content again....

 

good players will leave no one will wirte guides for not so good players et voila... raiding is dead...

 

kkeep it hard its a lot of fun lately

[MASTERDMANISEPIC]

Hey folks,

 

In response to your feedback following the Veteran's Edge removal in 6.1, the team is looking at a broad set of balance changes for Master Mode Operations. These changes ideally will happen even before 6.1.1. With today's PTS patch we have made changes to bolster in MM Ops to help account for the lack of Veteran's Edge. Please take a look on PTS and let us know if MM balance feels better following these changes.

 

Thanks all.

 

-eric

 

Personally, I don't feel like player stats need to change for MM ops. What needs to be changed is the damage profile on certain fights. Some things hit a lot harder than they should and make it more difficult than it should be in that regard. Basic attacks from bosses or adds doing 50k+ per hit is what makes NiM..interesting now. The DPS checks and healing is otherwise more than fine with the removal of stacks, providing a challenge while also not being impossible.

 

Some people also struggle with certain specs in NiM because of the damage scaling based on damage type. I'm not sure if there's anything you can do about it without reworking damage types, but that's really the only thing that needs to change for the players.

[ZolanSilverspear]

I have no clue, bar a few people, only general opinions are given, without actually testing what is currently up on pts. I haven't had an opportunity to test the buff myself, hopefully I will get a chance in the weekend.

 

For those that have been doing the same operations for years, the removal of stacks may have added an interesting level of difficulty. I agree nims have to be difficult, I agree not everyone should be able to do them. I agree with the veteran stacks they were easier than they were supposed to be. But the removal of stacks was fine tuning with a sledge hammer.

 

Assuming the dev team doesn't (and shouldn't, we all want new operations) have the resources to re-balance single boss fights, a simple solution (to this very unnecessary discussion here) would be a vendor item that removes the "buff". The old players are happy, and the new players can still actually progress.

[happysister]

Assuming the dev team doesn't (and shouldn't, we all want new operations) have the resources to re-balance single boss fights, a simple solution (to this very unnecessary discussion here) would be a vendor item that removes the "buff". The old players are happy, and the new players can still actually progress.

This is a good suggestion.

[Terro_Fett]

What exactly is the point of nim/mm operations if it is scaled back down to a hardmode?

 

That's a gross over-exaggeration. NiM with these changes is still more challenging than it was with Vet's Edge, but feels far more balanced for what old NiM content should be. The top 1% will have NiM Dxun soon to grind their teeth on, and NiM Gods is still going to be an exclusive arena as well. At the same time, this change will not make it an open buffet for casuals, but it will allow those in the top 5% instead of the top 1% the ability to progress old NiM content. There is currently a very large playerbase of raiders where HMs are just way too easy, but NiM in its current form is too hard. NiM with Vet's Edge was undertuned and no one denies this, but this middle-ground difficulty will open up viable progression to this larger group of players, which is much healthier state for the game.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Terro_Fett

[Opiklo]

There is currently a very large playerbase of raiders where HMs are just way too easy, but NiM in its current form is too hard

 

make hardmode...ehhhm... maybe... hard?

not nightmare into hardmode?

[Mocaccino]

... a simple solution (to this very unnecessary discussion here) would be a vendor item that removes the "buff". The old players are happy, and the new players can still actually progress.

 

Already implemented. It's called : Nightmare crystal. And it's was one of the worst idea they had in this game ...

[JulWolle]

I want to challenge all those elitist hardcore raiders to upload/stream all the nim ops with the following rules:

 

1. no crystals

 

2. no sin tank

 

3. no merc heal

 

4. no sorc/pt dps

 

Show me and the community how easy it is to do with these rules! I mean you are talking about "challenge" and "hard content" and "skill", how about you show it! Don´t make it easy for yourself with the op classes! Show us your skill and that you are up to a challenge!

 

POINT IS: Noone wants to be forced on special classes to clear the content. The content should be able to be cleared with all classes and this is a step in the right direction. I mean i would be fine with buffing the under performing classes too to an extent where they can compete, but that will probably never happen. So having a few op classes who makes it (maybe) too easy to clear nim is way better than having only those classes able to clear at all. Or maybe just make it scaleable how many stacks you have (0/10/20/30), that is easy "extra" content for everyone,.

 

Bring the player not the class.

Edited March 7, 2020 by JulWolle

[RikuvonDrake]

I want to challenge all those elitist hardcore raiders to upload/stream all the nim ops with the following rules:

 

such a change to see an otherwise good discussion be ruined by someone trying to troll and just insult other players.

[bogbogbog]

Bad decision, scaling was fine. Now u want to buff everything instead of tuning some particular fights. Even separating no edge and this buff doesnt feel so bad, over tuning dps again is not good idea, that was a point why it was removed. Short feedback - its not needed buff and its too much

[AllisonLightning]

I want to challenge all those elitist hardcore raiders to upload/stream all the nim ops with the following rules:

 

1. no crystals

 

2. no sin tank

 

3. no merc heal

 

4. no sorc/pt dps

 

Show me and the community how easy it is to do with these rules! I mean you are talking about "challenge" and "hard content" and "skill", how about you show it! Don´t make it easy for yourself with the op classes! Show us your skill and that you are up to a challenge!

 

POINT IS: Noone wants to be forced on special classes to clear the content. The content should be able to be cleared with all classes and this is a step in the right direction. I mean i would be fine with buffing the under performing classes too to an extent where they can compete, but that will probably never happen. So having a few op classes who makes it (maybe) too easy to clear nim is way better than having only those classes able to clear at all. Or maybe just make it scaleable how many stacks you have (0/10/20/30), that is easy "extra" content for everyone,.

 

Bring the player not the class.

 

The argument made is that while the stat increase is manageable, the stacks back are a bad idea. It's not going to help to listen to either side of the extreme spectrum because at the end of the day they want these changes to 'ideally happen' before this next patch. Because we've had a sharp population drop and it's not just the players who needed the stacks. Good players have been leaving in droves post stack removal and why? The same reasons as before with the added, now there's fewer people to raid with. A team of decent players having a member drop suddenly has the predicament of filling a spot with tight requirements few can fill. Those players are all on hold till one can be found- and this is on a raw skill metric, without a personality clash which can cause issues in a team but how pragmatic you are in that situation, do you even have the luxury of passing them up?

 

Stat increase and tweaks, it's a more even handed solution. So insisting on stacks only wastes time they could be making it right and on the other end of the spectrum, your best case scenario is them leaving things as they are? (Maybe enough people won't leave as any good will as a voice of the community is expended) Your worst case scenario is your lack of input balancing, Bioware gives up and just puts stacks back in, which would be a shame. Old content shouldn't be the placeholder for new stuff.

It hasn't been retaining players or bringing them up and what has ended up frustrating a lot of us is the most important part of it all. Resources wasted on old content because scaling is weird over new raids, new development and whatever success gained in holding this back only means another cycle wasted on old raids instead of already planning a new operation.

 

Want to get an entire guild to campaign on whatever side of this argument you're on instead of helping them work on the PTS balancing? It will only cause issues in the long run as will trying to skew the results as any undertuning or overtuning will make it to live and let this time sink for the devs continue.

 

such a change to see an otherwise good discussion be ruined by someone trying to troll and just insult other players.

 

That has been the last few weeks and frankly, it's made raiding painful.

[ZolanSilverspear]

No one has said anything about bringing back the veteran's edge. Apparently we have people saying "leave things as they are", I personally respect their point of view, however wrong I find it to be.

 

The very simple fact is either you leave the nims as is, and block access to anyone that hasn't been doing them nonstop for the last 8+ years, OR let others have a chance in progressing and improving themselves.

 

The current buff in PTS is a %5 power increase for all classes. It doesn't remove dps and heal checks as the veteran's edge did. It does certainly make things relatively easier than what is currently live. Easier as in, you no longer need a merc and operative heal and two lightning sorcs to actually do anything (I am exaggerating, I know).

 

It remains to be seen, how things are, considering (imao) lightning is being nerfed, and sorc heals are being changed (not buffed, but not nerfed either), and we are still yet to hear about merc changes.

[JulWolle]

It´s funny how noone says the challenge is possible or they are up to it and can show us how easy nim is.

 

The reason i called it elitist is bc the side who is against how it is on live tries to find a middle ground,we are not saying we need 30 stacks,we are saying that how it is atm is dumb and ridiculous, while the other side is saying: git gud, l2p, nim should be hard get better... so for me 1 side looks like elitist who only care about themselves and not about the raiding community...

 

So how about you tell me your opinion on the problem that you cannot run every class in nim and how you want that to change or is it fine for you?

[ottffsse]

nim without stacks is pretty balanced actually except a few fights were (mainly) adds do a bit too much damage to raid. it was not really a dps issue or hps issue but that certain things hit harder than even when these were released.

 

bw never does things subtly though so if it was on one end after they got rid of stacks, now it will be somewhat too easy again if they blanket buff our stats back.

 

but base line is that it is old content so who cares.

[Toraak]

Already implemented. It's called : Nightmare crystal. And it's was one of the worst idea they had in this game ...

 

Sorry but the Nightmare crystal has always been a joke. The materials needed to craft those was always to high. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone bothering to waste 5 of each encryption to make 1 for a short buff that disappears as soon as you leave the instance.