One good thing has come from the new crafting...

[RikuvonDrake]

considering the insignificant cost of crafting, is a 10k undercut by ~15ppl over a long time period really something to complain about? Edited December 2, 2019 by RikuvonDrake

[Batwer]

[quote=orig_mrrabbit;9798933

 

Black / Red @ 120k

Red / Black @ 120k

Black / Blue @ 120k

Blue / Black @ 120k

White / Grey @ 200k

White / Orange @ 200k

White / Medium Red @ 200k

White / Medium blue @ 160k

 

=8-)

 

By the way, thank the Brains on Tulak Hord they make me rich with these colors. They offer the whole with 40,000 to 100,000 credits and I sell to 120,000 to 400,000.

[OrmEmber]

I feel maybe I posted in the wrong thread. I don't actually deal with craftables or mats. I make my creds..elsewhere. I'm not sure if that makes my point less valid. But as a rule, I will still avoid those cheaping others by tiny amounts. It is lame. I'd call it cowardly, but that doesn't really translate. But that's how I feel.

 

The market ultimately sets the price. What it is worth to them. If you don't like it then **** off. QQing does nothing but make you look like a greedy ****. Adapt or die. No one cares what it costs to make something, they care what it costs them to buy.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Space barbies

 

Ahem. Allow me to add my expert insight 🤓

 

1. There's a lot of trial and error with dyes. What could be a good look in the previewer, may look subpar when actually applied and worn by your toon. It's very easy to "waste" a dye on a failed look.

 

2. When mixing and matching pieces, the dyes may appear reversed across different pieces. So if you run Black/Red on your chest, you may need to run Red/Black on your legs to get the look right.

 

3. Medium Orange and Light Green dye is by far the ugliest dye module ever created. I won a "Ugliest Outfit" contest with it. So don't bother crafting these

 

____________________

 

Anyway, back to what you were saying about people cutting the market by more than 1 cred. I think that if someone cuts the market by a noticeable margin, then they are actually trying to sell the item(s) for quick cash. So I don't see anything wrong with someone undercutting by 20k to sell 1 item.

 

Secondly, what determines pricing when you can get most mats for free, and roll crits for an extra piece? How much is time worth? And why are you the arbiter of someone else's time and get to decide prices for everyone else?

Edited December 2, 2019 by Rion_Starkiller

[Void_Singer]

Then you either don’t understand sales or don’t care to make credits. If it was “real money” I’m sure you wouldn’t do it.

as a point of fact I do EXACTLY what I said in real life. I don't bother with shady people trying to manipulate a listing by chump change pricing and I don't need to gouge people to make a profit. Truth be told I could price most of my goods below the level of profitability for F2P/Pref players and still make money, but that requires me to put out way more volume of goods than I want to bother with.

 

so please, feel free to only move your price point by 1 credit, and I'll continue to undercut by a couple of percentage points, and sell a dozen for more total profit in the same time it took you to sell the one. It's happily fueled my decorating habit with plenty spare to throw away on new alts, and pretty much any CM skins I like.

[Tsillah]

So sure, undercutting by more than one credit makes sense to me - but undercutting something which sells for tens of thousands of credits (like the dyes mentioned) by tens of thousands of credits AND where the original price was in line with average price does seem idiotic.

That's a matter of perspective. Not everybody cares about maximizing profits and having more credits than you need. I look at opportunities and undercut to get what I need. Credits are not a goal for me and I have enough credits. In fact, I have some sport with undercutting people just to drive their prices down on purpose. Particularly with stuff like augments. I find that hilarious.

 

And particularly now my toons are geared up and have their set bonuses pretty much sorted (just need two pieces for my 10th character) and that's me sorted. I spend a lot less now that I've got my mods and all that taken care of. I still have plenty of credits but certainly not as many as others. Don't need them. And when you don't care about them that much, then it's actually idiotic to keep trying to make credits and maximize your profits.

 

Like I said, it's a matter of point of view.

[TrixxieTriss]

Undercutting people by 1 credit is pathetic. All that says to me is you want all the moneies but are unwilling to actually lose anything and would rather steal a sale from someone else.. because some people blindly buy the cheapest thing going. I always avoid those sellers.

 

If I buy something cheaper I do it from those that are actually willing to lose something to make the sale. Not to be a greedy guts. If you don't wanna lose anything then make your price the same as the people above you.

 

If ya gonna undercut someone, do it like you mean it. 1 Credit..pfft that makes your sale worthless in my eyes. I will buy the more expensive item over yours because you are too greedy to actually lower the price meaningfully.

 

It’s totally situational. If you are selling something for millions, you have some room to move with the price.

But when you are sub 100,000 and already at the market price, there isn’t a lot of room to move more than a credit at a time or you end up with a snow ball affect like I demonstrated above.

 

As an example, you are trying to sell some satele Shan boots and the dearest is 20m. I’m not going to list mine at 19,999,999. I’m more likely to take off a few thousand. And even if 17 people list after me and we each take off 10,000, it’s only going to be 170,000 less than 20m.

In those sort of situations, you are hardly going to make a dent in the 20m when you consider the cut Bioware themselves are going to take.

 

Which leads me to another point I have not brought up, but I probably should. Bioware take 8% of every sale. Even if you list something at 100,000, you aren’t going to get 100,000. You will only get 92,000. So when people start undercutting more and more, you get even less than you or the buyer thinks,

 

I always factor Bioware’s tax into my sales. If I’m selling something for millions and I want a specific return, I will try and add Biowares 8% ontop of the price I’m trying to sell at. But if I’m selling dyes, I don’t have that luxury because 8% can make or break the market price.

 

Selling items under 100,000 to make reasonable credits is very time consuming, it’s not like flipping some Armor or selling a crafting mat you picked up from an operation. It’s hard work making credits selling crafting dyes. It requires your comps doing farming missions for the blue mats, then planet farming for the green mats and then crafting the dyes and sitting on the GTN to baby sit them for part of your listing to avoid price wars.

 

The green mats (colour crystal farming, can be the hardest of the lot). Some grades are on the worst planets, that have the worst respawn of colour crystals and have long and slow path ways to farm. While others are much faster and easier.

Sadly, most of the time the popular dyes mats are on the worst planets. ie, Makeb is basically the grade 7 planet for dark red and black dye crystals. So when I see people start a price war on those, I groan and wonder why are they so stupid to do it with one of the highest demand dyes and most the arduous mats to farm for them.

 

You also have the blue mission mats to collect and it seems these now take longer since the expansion. I use 10 treasure hunting characters, each with 2-3 lvl 50 comps and the rest are 20-30 lvl comps. I rotate through each one to send them off for mats I need and it can take hours to do and 100,000’s of credits to get enough if some mats because each dye requires 8 of those blue mats. I have to login and out with each one to do this. Each one of my treasure hunters has a whole Armor set to wear while only doing the missions,10+ treasure hunting (mod only) sets. Even with these, some of my lvl 50 comps fail missions now since Bioware F’d up crafting.

 

There are real costs involved in crafting. You also have to buy the white crafting mats too. Plus let’s not forget the time you have to spend making the bonded attachments from the other mats.

All of this takes a fair bit of time and credits to make. Anyone who spouts that it costs a few thousand to make is flat out lying if they are actually farming the mats as crafting is designed. If they are only using Jawa junk, then they will run out if that pretty fast if they are a dedicated crafter.

1. Because they spend a bunch of time crafting, so don’t have as much time to collect the jawa junk

2. Because a dedicated crafter making every dye in a large enough quantity to keep up with demand will run out of jawa junk really fast as the costs go up per grade.

 

I “earn’t” every credit through hard work. I didn’t gouge and I only flip when silly people get stupid with prices on the GTN (which has been worse since the expansion).

 

I don’t think anyone who doesn’t craft in quantity to make credits in this game, really understands what goes into it. Most of the stupid people who destroy the pricing on the GTN only sell 1-3 colours at a time and flood the market with supply and then undercut by thousands to clear out their stock as fast as possible. Sometimes I think they must have other accounts with bots because I can’t list 50 dyes of the same colour every few hours, but some of them do for weeks at a time.

 

Basically what I’m getting at is next time you go to buy a crafted dye on the GTN, think about how much time, effort and credits went into that before you think they are too cheap or that someone is only willing to under cut by 1 credit,

If you feel like being altruistic when buying on the GTN, maybe consider the opposite to what you do and don’t support those who undercut more than a credit because those people are destroying other peoples hard work to supply you with those dyes in quantities every day at reasonably steady prices. With out those smart crafters, you would be paying 100,000’s of credits because there wouldn’t be enough supply to keep up with demand. Which means the CM dyes would be even more expensive than they are now.

 

Edit : also since the expansions, Bioware require 500,000 to upgrade your crafting or gather professions for each to go to grade 11 For each crafter or gatherer, that’s 1.5m they have to pay before even paying 10’s thousands for the schematics or reverse engineering if making some crafted items.

I’ve already spent over 20,000,000 just updating “some” of my 40 Alts.

Edited December 2, 2019 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

considering the insignificant cost of crafting, is a 10k undercut by ~15ppl over a long time period really something to complain about?

 

Crafting costs are not insignificant. If you seriously crafted, you would understand that.

[DawnAskham]

Interesting seeing all the different points of view - none more right than another, just different.

 

And at the end of the day, I really don't care what others do, though I can and will adjust.

 

Sometimes this means buying out and relisting, sometimes it means leaving a market alone for a bit, sometimes it means slotting a few items in between price bands to make a few sales over a 24-48 hr period, and sometimes it even means crafting and dumping so much of an item no one makes a credit for weeks.

 

But most of the time it means trying to follow a rational pricing / GTN model, and for me that means trying to get a similar return for time / credits spent regardless of the item being sold, and above what I could get doing something else like just running heroics or farming mats or slicing nodes or whatever.

 

Which usually means undercutting (not always - but most of the time), by a small amount (more than 1 credit, usually 1%-2%, but not in the 20%+ range), and posting volumes that will reasonably sell in a day or two (not flooding the market with two weeks of product at once).

 

Of course humans are not always rational, myself included, and so sometimes, despite my best intentions, I act irrationally.

Edited December 2, 2019 by DawnAskham

[TrixxieTriss]

Of course humans are not always rational.

 

One of the better comments I’ve seen on the forums of late.

 

Another analogy is “common sense is not that common”.

[TrixxieTriss]

FYI, they drove the price below 50k on those black dyes I used as an example yesterday. I just bought the lot because it’s easy credits later on and the guy who undercut 10k to take it to 60k yesterday, hasn’t sold any (kharma’s a biach).

But the people higher than him have either delisted for later or sold theirs.

Edited December 3, 2019 by TrixxieTriss

[AhaziBorn]

Sorry, but are you allergic to making credits? Please, please tell me you aren’t also one of these foolish people who under cut for more than 1 credit a time (they are sooooo, dumb). Ie lowest price is 90,000 and you list for 60,000?

 

Why would you drive the price down on those dyes? It blows my mind that you would even consider listing them at the prices you quoted because every single one is a high demand, high volume dye.

You know you can sell half as much and make the same amount of credits? Or still sell the same quantity at the market price and make 30-50% more credits?

All that time and effort to acquire the mats and then craft them all so you can sell them cheap. You’d be better off just selling the mats on the GTN if you are going to do that.

 

If you were in the real world and ran a business like you describe, you would never make any money. .

 

Isn't this almost the same exact thing that places like Walmart, And Amazon do? You go to Bestbuy to check out that new TV or Laptop and get a feel for it. Then you go home and buy it on amazon for Less. Undercutting to sell by volume is a perfectly valid strategy, and if it brings them enough credits to feel profitable, then why not. Others will be there to pick up the slack and over charge, anyway.

[Void_Singer]

May I politely suggest you attend your local community college and take a course in Remedial Capitalism? You clearly have no idea how it works...

guess you've never heard of volume pricing?

 

thanks for the chuckle though.

[TrixxieTriss]

Isn't this almost the same exact thing that places like Walmart, And Amazon do? You go to Bestbuy to check out that new TV or Laptop and get a feel for it. Then you go home and buy it on amazon for Less. Undercutting to sell by volume is a perfectly valid strategy, and if it brings them enough credits to feel profitable, then why not. Others will be there to pick up the slack and over charge, anyway.

 

The simple answer is No, it not the same.

 

Amazon and co do not drastically undercut for no reason, there is no profit in that sort of business mode

They are also two different types of business. One is bricks and mortar stores with sale staff display stock with many more over heads and the other is a virtual store with less over heads.

There is nothing of similar comparison in swtor. So it’s really difficult understand how you think that relates to this discussion.

Edited December 4, 2019 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

guess you've never heard of volume pricing?

 

thanks for the chuckle though.

 

After working in bricks and mortar retail and distribution chains that deal with volume pricing, I can tell you have zero understanding of either from a business model / practice. All you are seeing is the consumer or buyer side and not the backend that drives those businesses, which are completely different even if they sometimes sell the same products.

 

As I said previously, swtor has no such comparative model and making and selling dyes isn’t even close. The closet you could practically get to that in swtor would be CM dyes or items, which are purchased from the CM and then sold on the GTN,

 

Crafted dyes or items that are then sold into the market are more like a manufacturing or farming model that supplies the market. Both of with are completely different to volume pricing model you suggest.

 

If those selling were buying 100% of their dyes from the crafters direct (before going on the GTN) and then listing with no actual overheads besides the “whole sale” price, that would be when your volume pricing model would be relevant.

 

The closest to that would be the people who don’t craft, but buy all the cheap dyes on the GTN to flip. And I can 100% guarantee, they aren’t the ones doing the volume pricing, they are the ones listing well above market price.

Edited December 4, 2019 by TrixxieTriss

[Void_Singer]

[stuff]

I would have thought from other statments it was clear that I was referring to High Volume (low cost) Pricing, and not Volume Discount Pricing... although they work very similarly in that you offer a lower price per unit, but move a larger quantity of goods.

 

Done correctly, this yields higher profits per unit time... done incorrectly it's equivalent to the Loss Leader and other similar strategies. In SWTOR, the only two ingredients to make this work are enough up front resources to make large (and therefor more efficient) batches, and the patience not to flood the market with them all at once (which definitely will trigger a price war)

[Transcendent]

As soon as the legit crafters pull their stock or get sick of it and just stop crafting altogether, those at the bottom jack up the price higher than the market price and under supply the market. Then buyers are worse off in the long term. I’ve seen it happen for 12 months and I know of all the players doing it,

 

Now, it’s a free market and all and GTN pvp is a thing and so is predatory behaviour by some people like this. But the casual, general or reasonable crafters contribute to the problem too because they undercut more than 1 credit at a time.

 

Actually I did this with Relics, but the "legit" crafters were quite simply gouging players. End of, no excuses. I entered the market and sold higher quantities over time, without oversupplying (knowing the actual cost) purely to help those players who didn't have many credits. Slowly over time I increased the range of Relics being sold, got into some GTN PvP along the way and recently cleared my inventory due to the added stats (still making profit).

 

I take zero issue with someone undercutting me, not an issue. I can return the favour at any point I choose to, as well as still turn a profit and provide a service to those players who either don't want to craft or don't know how to. The point for me of crafting is to not gouge players, but to provide a service and make a reasonable profit over time to gain credits to increase my companions levels. I've now got 108 companions at level 50, on crafters or gatherers. Which isn't bad, considering a couple of months ago I had about 3. At around 4.25m per companion, I'll let you do the math (I've also spent close to 500m easily).

[TrixxieTriss]

Actually I did this with Relics, but the "legit" crafters were quite simply gouging players. End of, no excuses. I entered the market and sold higher quantities over time, without oversupplying (knowing the actual cost) purely to help those players who didn't have many credits. Slowly over time I increased the range of Relics being sold, got into some GTN PvP along the way and recently cleared my inventory due to the added stats (still making profit).

 

I take zero issue with someone undercutting me, not an issue. I can return the favour at any point I choose to, as well as still turn a profit and provide a service to those players who either don't want to craft or don't know how to. The point for me of crafting is to not gouge players, but to provide a service and make a reasonable profit over time to gain credits to increase my companions levels. I've now got 108 companions at level 50, on crafters or gatherers. Which isn't bad, considering a couple of months ago I had about 3. At around 4.25m per companion, I'll let you do the math (I've also spent close to 500m easily).

 

100% agree with you and you demonstrated one keen point I was trying to make about higher prices.

 

When you have less people crafting because it becomes less profitable or time consuming based on your efforts, you either stop or move to some other crafting.

That’s why you see such gouging on some crafted items. I even see people listing a bunch of black red dyes at the moment for 250,000+ credits, I even see them being listed for 5m to catch the un-wary buyer,

 

And that’s the point I’m trying to make about people undercutting larger amounts than needed and then flooding the market at such cheap prices. All they do is drive the price into the ground and it’s well below a fair price for the dyes.

I don’t price gouge and I don’t like people who do. It’s not fair to the buyers, but neither is it fair to the sellers when the foolish listers drive the price down so low that it drives legit crafters from the market.

 

That just creates less legitimate competition and encourages price gouging once the reasonable crafters leave. I’ve watched this happen with specific coloured dyes. As soon as everyone stops making the colour because it’s not worth it, those who have driven the price down and bulk list, then put the price well above a reasonable market price and only list a few at a time. This obviously hurts the buyers and other sellers alike because the same douche bags doing this, also keep driving the price down on everything else to force more crafters away.

 

Some of the other posts here in the thread defending undercutting more than 1 credit (from market prices) because they think they are being nice or that they don’t think it’s that bad, are contributing to the problem even if they don’t realise it,

I’ve perfectly demonstrated how this affected the black gray dyes the other day and their price is still sitting well below market price. Not only that, but the same predatory listers have now flooded the market so much that even if you were to under cut them by 1 credit to test the demand, you are lucky to sell it before another bulk seller lists another 20.

 

I know who these bulk sellers are and I know what will happen when people stop listing, they will increase the price from 50k to 150k or more. They’ve done it before many times.

 

(Probably letting the cat out of the bag here, but this is how I combat this behaviour and reset the market price for everyone, both buyers and sellers alike)

I’m currently watching the price on a few colours and even though I’ve stopped crafting, I will buy the whole market when it reaches a specific price. That includes stock that is only 20% lower than normal market price. What that does is clear out everyone’s stash of that colour and I’ve zero competition for a day or two. In that time, I will list a few at a time at the normal market price. This will reset both demand and the price.

 

Is it a risky move? Can I get stuck with a bunch of stock? Absolutely, LoL, it’s happened before.

But last time I did this, I had 200 dyes I didn’t have to craft and I sold them all in a day and made all my money back and 40-50% profit.

The legitimate sellers re-entered the market and we had a few weeks of selling or undercutting each other by 1 credit or 10. And when the demand is high, everyones stock they list can sell out in hours and then you reset the price to the top of the market and let it trickle down till the stock is gone again. This is a sustainable cycle that benefits everyone.

Most of us don’t even bother undercutting and just listed the same and only a few dyes at a time, which lets everyone sell even if they’d been slightly undercut.

 

The key to this sustainable model is finding the market price and not undercutting so much or flooding the market with stock. This keeps the price gouges in check because they can never sell their stock, which keeps the buyers happy in the long term. It’s a win-win for everyone but those 3-4 predators. And if we follow some simple guideline (like 1 credit undercuts), it also keeps the predatory sellers in check because every time they list 20, a few of us list 1-2 and those predators either have to undercut significantly. At which point, everyone buys their stock or at the least, you keep making them relist 20+ dyes to waste their time when you then list 1-2 straight after Eventually they get the message and either stop listing so many at one time or find some other chumps to mess with.

 

FYI, that’s the only time I get involved in a price war. It’s to mess with the predators driving the price down and who are driving other crafters from the market, a healthy market is a lot of sellers and smart competition.

Edited December 5, 2019 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

A really good example of over supply by one play is now live on SF. He has listed 9 pages at the cheapest price of black and gray. Which he will never sell that many in a 24 hour period. Which means anyone who wants to sell will have to undercut him, guaranteeing another drop in price and also preventing him from selling much of his stock. It’s completely idiotic and demonstrates how bulk listing not only hurts the lister, but also the other sellers and drives the price even lower.

 

I should also state the other usual listers who do this are also there and have multiple dyes listed at nearly his price, but the first one who started this dropped the price in a massive undercut that drove the price down 20k and then listed 3+ pages of black gray, followed by another who listed a page.

These are exaclty the same guys who drive the prices down like this and then jack it up when everyone else stops listing.

Eventually you’ll only be able to buy from them and the option of getting a black gray dye in the future under 100k will be gone.

[orig_mrrabbit]

A really good example of over supply by one play is now live on SF. He has listed 9 pages at the cheapest price of black and gray. Which he will never sell that many in a 24 hour period. Which means anyone who wants to sell will have to undercut him, guaranteeing another drop in price and also preventing him from selling much of his stock. It’s completely idiotic and demonstrates how bulk listing not only hurts the lister, but also the other sellers and drives the price even lower.

 

I should also state the other usual listers who do this are also there and have multiple dyes listed at nearly his price, but the first one who started this dropped the price in a massive undercut that drove the price down 20k and then listed 3+ pages of black gray, followed by another who listed a page.

These are exaclty the same guys who drive the prices down like this and then jack it up when everyone else stops listing.

Eventually you’ll only be able to buy from them and the option of getting a black gray dye in the future under 100k will be gone.

 

Chances are pretty good that'll be listing 200-300 black/grey dyes at 43k each in the near future.

 

=8-)

[Sarova]

It's not like 120k is that much and people can craft them themselves if they stop being so lazy.

I have all crafting maxed on various alts because I prefer to be self-sufficient, however many, many players don't because crafting does not benefit them or how they play in any way. It's nothing to do with laziness.

[DawnAskham]

I have all crafting maxed on various alts because I prefer to be self-sufficient, however many, many players don't because crafting does not benefit them or how they play in any way. It's nothing to do with laziness.

 

I agree that lazy is probably not the best word to describe those that do not participate in crafting, however, those that refuse to craft have no basis to whine about the costs for items they could easily craft for themselves by investing a small amount of time into crafting.

Edited December 5, 2019 by DawnAskham

[Tsillah]

I have all crafting maxed on various alts because I prefer to be self-sufficient, however many, many players don't because crafting does not benefit them or how they play in any way. It's nothing to do with laziness.

Many, many players....whatever that means.

 

Clearly if they want dyes it benefits them. And sorry but I see all too often that people confuse playstyle with character flaws. I don't have a problem with being lazy but I do have a problem with people not wanting to do something and still want to get everything cheap as if they're entitled to it somehow simply because they exist.

 

It's all about goals and what you're willing to do to get there. This game already caters a lot to people who need stuff given to them just for showing up and it doesn't need to get worse. You do a few heroics you have a dye if you don't want to craft it yourself. But to complain about the price when you're not willing to do the crafting yourself at this level is just bizarre. I get it when power traders take things off the market and really ask crazy prices, but this isn't that.

 

But if you are not willing to do the crafting and you're not willing to do a few dailies or heroics to get that dye then I have no sympathy for you (not you specifically of course but as a general statement). If they asked 5 million credits per dye sure, but 120K... people just like to whine too much. And if that's not laziness then tell me what it's called when people can't be bothered to do what it takes but still want it cheap and then I'll use that word instead.

[Lhancelot]

And if that's not laziness then tell me what it's called when people can't be bothered to do what it takes but still want it cheap and then I'll use that word instead.

 

Without knowing what all a player does in the game, I wouldn't call someone lazy just because they do not craft. Let's change the activity to PVP, for instance.

 

Let's say the only way you could get a specific dye was via PVP. We all know there are some people who simply refuse to PVP, that's fine it's their choice they dislike PVP so they avoid it.

 

Now, say this player wants this new dye that can only be gotten via PVP. Are they still being lazy because they bemoan the fact they have to do PVP for that special dye? I don't think this is a lazy person.

 

The same thing can be applied to someone that hates crafting. Personally I always did crafting on MMOs, but I have known many that wouldn't touch it and these were not lazy players.

 

I just think it's too easy to broadstroke people with a stigma or label when people are far more complicated than them simply being lazy or not lazy. (Granted, yes, there are "lazy" players, too, I don't say there are not.)

 

So in a nutshell, your label of calling specific people lazy might apply, but just because someone doesn't want to craft that doesn't automatically make them lazy.

 

I think crafting has slowly degraded on this game, though. It's not very enjoyable particularly in it's present state and I don't blame players that steer clear of crafting, especially now.

[RikuvonDrake]

Crafting costs are not insignificant. If you seriously crafted, you would understand that.

 

old item crafting cost is still insignificant, maybe you confuse the crafting cost for new items with the cost of old items?