Onslaught has brought on an interesting transitory period in the playerbase

[ZionHalcyon]

So, I know 2 weeks ago, I created a bunch of threads and thought given some circumstances, it would be good to take a step back and observe for a bit.

 

What I have seen is interesting, but as an 8 year vet, I can say it is very different than any time in the history of the game.

 

 

Here is what I mean.

 

 

Onslaught without a doubt at this point, is a very POLARIZING expansion. It really shouldn't be, but you have some people who were bent on hating it no matter what, who were already on the forums, and you have its supporters, who generally admit it isn't perfect (crafting and amplifiers are the big issues) but otherwise think its a great expansion.

 

So far, not all that different.

 

However, what IS different is the RATIO.

 

 

Typically in the past, you would have the supporters for the game outnumbered in vast droves, and mass exoduses from the game, which has happened overall, but mostly during 2 key points in the game's development - when after almost a couple years the developers admitted no more class stories finally (after playing coy for a very long time), and again about 2-3 months after 5.0 hit. Anyone watching could see the slow bleed of players hitting peak escalation during these two points (ironically, many of the people who predicted doom for the game and said it was awful are still here in the forums today).

 

However for Onslaught, you see the same start of flame-baity type threads trying to shred the game, but what is new is, in many cases, you are seeing new and fresh faces jumping in to go the complete OPPOSITE way. To say, no, the game doesn't suck, the gearing isn't that bad, they enjoyed the story, what have you.

 

And its NOT THE SAME people jumping in to say that - every time it is someone different. And in most threads, although the doom-criers will never admit it because they don't want to be wrong, they are outnumbered usually 3-1, so long as it isn't a topic about crafting or amplifiers.

 

 

The impression it is leaving me with, is this:

 

The player base is in a period of transition, and many who left the game for a long time now are coming back, and liking what they are playing.

And those leaving tend to generally fall in the category of "solo players" - people who want to be anti-social and not need to group with anyone to get gear or do content.

 

It's a fascinating watch. But not one without successful prescident in MMO history.

 

Back in Star Wars Galaxies, they had a series of patches that ruined crafting for that game. It was amazing early, but they nerfed the crap out of it. One of the communities left was the Munitions profession, that had been so abused that they had become jaded. Nothing was going to get better. It hadn't gotten better in 5 years, so why try? No new ideas welcome because the developers won't listen anyway. And on and on went those forums. Sound familiar?

 

Well, someone a part of the Senator player-dev communication program (like influencers but with a lot more direct feedback) who got made the Munitions Senator came up with an idea, and after working with the developers within the constraints to see what they could actually do, brought the fully fleshed out concept to the players in the Munitions forum.

 

They hated it. It was different and they hated it. Because it was different. No other reason. They had already settled into their position of whining, and didn't really want crafting to be better - they just wanted it to be bad so they could continue to whine.

 

The Senator however took the proposal then to the general populace - where it was the exact opposite; they LOVED it.

 

The idea was able to build enough support that after consistent awareness and determination, the Senator got the idea put into the game. The old Munitions folks all said it sucked, and left.

 

HOWEVER.

 

The idea was so good, NEW people came in. Within a month, a barren, toxic munitions forum was replaced by fresh blood, new people, and because of the new crafting concept, it became a positive place that was active, helpful, and good.

 

And it remained that way until SOE ended up shuttering SWG (over licensing issues, it turns out). But up until it was shuttered, the Munitions forum remained great, and the idea ended up being a boon to the game, and not the disaster the naysayers said it would.

 

 

 

So, with that, storytime is over. The Cynics will obviously point to SWG "dying" to prove themselves right, even though there were a ton of other issues with the game, and at that point, SOE no longer had the Star Wars license - they couldn't have legally kept it going without getting sued by Lucasfilm.

 

But the community in Munitions became better, larger, and more positive thanks to the influx of new ideas that appealed to a broader amount of people than the small group of nay-sayers. In fact, not just on SWTOR reddit, but also in game, its more positive (although Gen chat will ALWAYS be gen chat - yikes).

 

That is where the game is now. No one is saying it is perfect. But in my opinion, more people LIKE the expansion than hate it. The turnover from one type of player to another was risky, but it looks so far like it was the right move, and no amount of salt from the outgoing playerbase can change that.

 

Not that solo play isn't welcome, but it definitely has its niche in story and Heroics. And challenge is back again and it matters.

 

No more easy button.

 

 

The only question now left is this:

 

 

BioWare successfully brought back a lot of old players and new ones to play the game - now can they keep those people here?

 

That's the key. But they certainly kicked off things well...

[SerraShar]

*** people who want to be anti-social and not need to group with anyone to get gear or do content.****

 

Now I'm imagining you reading your own thread in front of a mirror....lol

[jedimasterjac]

I can at least say the game feels more alive right now.

 

Also, anyone know why there's like 200 people in the Tat SH on Star Forge?

[Gelious]

BioWare successfully brought back a lot of old players and new ones to play the game - now can they keep those people here?

No they can not, People with run the new story, some multiple times. People will grind their set of 306 gear. And then they will leave again.

 

You wanna know why? Because apart from 1 new op and 1 new FP there is nothing else to do, just to re-run same old content we already saw a thousand times. In fact it's even worse now - since ops drops random gear now, same is FP, there is no reason to do any ops, especially HM or NIM.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Gelious

[ZionHalcyon]

*** people who want to be anti-social and not need to group with anyone to get gear or do content.****

 

Now I'm imagining you reading your own thread in front of a mirror....lol

 

Whatever helps you cope.

[ZionHalcyon]

I can at least say the game feels more alive right now.

 

Also, anyone know why there's like 200 people in the Tat SH on Star Forge?

 

Exactly. I noticed it too. Things feel very alive right now.

[ZionHalcyon]

No they can not, People with run the new story, some multiple times. People will grind their set of 306 gear. And then they will leave again.

 

You wanna know why? Because apart from 1 new op and 1 new FP there is nothing else to do, just to re-run same old content we already saw a thousand times. In fact it's even worse now - since ops drops random gear now, same is FP, there is no reason to do any ops, especially HM or NIM.

 

 

Name me an MMO that releases an expansion within 1 month of another expansion. Because either you are demanding that, or being deliberately obtuse.

 

My point was only this - can bioware follow up on Onslaught and start putting out a steady stream of content?

 

In their March 2019 Article called Under the Hood, they detailed upgrading their engine to do just that.

 

Can they deliver?

 

If they can drop a new FP and a little bit more story content before the end of the year - I'd say yes. If its typical bioware where they all go into hibernation at this point and we don't hear anything of significance back from them until March or April, then I'd definitely say no.

 

The thing to understand is that it was never being understaffed that was the issue. It was their business model from the beginning that was bad - their business model was to have players go away and unsub until they put something new out. Its a BAD model. Now, if they are going to change that, need to show it first.

 

But they made a good first move. They need to be able to follow up on it.

[Gelious]

But they made a good first move. They need to be able to follow up on it.

 

 

Their good first move was putting out amount of content that amounts to a patch, and calling it a new expansion. That's what they basically did. I don't expect that any follow up will be any better then before.

[Sargrith]

Technically I never left, never let my sub go but I have not played in months maybe even a year plus. I hoped for real improvements but honestly don’t see them. This expansion is super tiny and while it was ok the story felt old and honestly a new villain might have helped with that. I did run a few flash points and it was ok, but nothing good even. I could grind gear again...but why? There isn’t enough meat in this expansion. It really felt like a lot of hype little substance. As for more alive....well like I said been gone over a year....it felt very empty. Fleet, Odessa, the new planets all seemed to have some people but far from as full as I recall. I don’t think there is enough here to hold anyone not devoted to the game like most of the remaining population is. Those still here decided long ago Star Wars trumps quality and that’s fair for them to do, but it’s really not going to keep anyone otherwise decided. I don’t know I do love Star Wars but I’m just struggling with the choice to stay or go.

[MishaCantu]

"And those leaving tend to generally fall in the category of "solo players" - people who want to be anti-social and not need to group with anyone to get gear or do content."

 

You lost me right there. Yes, this is an MMO, a massive online world populated by other people. It is not an MGO, a massive online enforced GROUPING world. I'd say it's big enough for all types.

 

I'm old enough to be most players grandmother, and I used to do group content like a mad dog, but now, I have some physical limitations. People get old, you'll understand when you get there. The reason I won't group is because I refuse to have some 20, 30, 40, or even 50 year old A$s hat being rude just because they can.

 

I've played a lot of online games, and have found that players often ruin a game far more efficiently than the company who made it.

Edited November 4, 2019 by MishaCantu

[Jadescythe]

The forums are in no way representative of the player base in general. People with time on their hands at work or a particular reason to vent. 99% of players don't even know they exist and so I draw no conclusions from the comments here beyond the individual.

[ZionHalcyon]

Technically I never left, never let my sub go but I have not played in months maybe even a year plus. I hoped for real improvements but honestly don’t see them. This expansion is super tiny and while it was ok the story felt old and honestly a new villain might have helped with that. I did run a few flash points and it was ok, but nothing good even. I could grind gear again...but why? There isn’t enough meat in this expansion. It really felt like a lot of hype little substance. As for more alive....well like I said been gone over a year....it felt very empty. Fleet, Odessa, the new planets all seemed to have some people but far from as full as I recall. I don’t think there is enough here to hold anyone not devoted to the game like most of the remaining population is. Those still here decided long ago Star Wars trumps quality and that’s fair for them to do, but it’s really not going to keep anyone otherwise decided. I don’t know I do love Star Wars but I’m just struggling with the choice to stay or go.

 

The thing that sucks for you is that this story felt like that, because it wasn't marketed at you. Not blaming you or calling your opinion wrong, but let me put it like this:

 

There was an outpouring of people who wanted the story to go back to Republic Vs Empire. KotFE, despite the fact that it crapped all over the vanilla game, had its own fans of that story. However, as I said, KotFE crapped all over Vanilla, and even more left than stayed.

 

Onslaught is an effort to get those fans back. By and by, its been successful because it has brought back a ton of people. Of course, this at risk of alienating those who like KotFE.

 

However, that base was dwindling anyway, and Vanilla SWTOR story fans are LEGION. So they made a smart business decision and catered to the larger potential base.

 

As I said earlier though - won't mean crap if they can't follow up.

 

 

One thing people here need to keep in mind though, is that true story players are a different breed.

 

I'd imagine that some players likely played through Onslaught once on a Republic character, once on an Empire character, and then stood there and said "now what?"

 

True blue story players think about the other choices they could have taken, and take their alts and explore them. In their head, they are continuing the adventures of each character they rolled and will still be plenty entertained by Onslaught taking all 8 classes through, and then another 8 through to see the choices they didn't pick., and then even more through as they explore the difference in options between the loyalist and the traitor storylines.

 

Even for me, I've gotten through 3 of 48 characters. Not even a dent. And that includes time off from the story to gear. I found a madness tactical that makes my Madness Sorc a bad ***, so I have been having fun with that lately.

 

Its going to take me a while to get through the story on all 48 characters. And I feel no compulsion to rush and grind and burn myself out playing a game. I'm taking it as it comes and having fun doing it.

 

As are a lot of the returning people. Its a different mentality from the people coming back into the game. Something people don't realize...

[OlBuzzard]

To ZionHalcyon

 

1. The game is not dying !

2. It is changing.

3. To assume that the game is changing to anti solo player is misguided conclusion on your part.

 

I don't have the time to finish a post that I've been working on for a while now. Frankly I'm dealing with some RL issues and it is consuming large segments of my time.

 

There is plenty of room in game for those who prefer:

** PvP **

** PvE ** group ( but more casual)

** PvE ** solo … more intense

** PvE ** solo / causal

 

This game already has the seed plot for ALL of the above.

This is not an indictment against anyone or their style of gaming. It is not an indictment or allegation of superfluous verbosity describing how other should "enjoy" the game.

 

The MMO industry is changing. Levels of intensity and game enjoyment will be different.

Some areas will include a more "open" area like those on Ossus and on Onderon ! (Which to me is a good thing !)

 

IMO... Learning and growing is always a good thing : for everyone ! (even a crusty old dude like me .. And yes. I find myself trying to learn new stuff all the time !

 

I'll try to post more later. But I really do have my back to the wall right now. It may take a while !

[ZionHalcyon]

To ZionHalcyon

 

1. The game is not dying !

2. It is changing.

3. To assume that the game is changing to anti solo player is misguided conclusion on your part.

 

I don't have the time to finish a post that I've been working on for a while now. Frankly I'm dealing with some RL issues and it is consuming large segments of my time.

 

There is plenty of room in game for those who prefer:

** PvP **

** PvE ** group ( but more casual)

** PvE ** solo … more intense

** PvE ** solo / causal

 

This game already has the seed plot for ALL of the above.

This is not an indictment against anyone or their style of gaming. It is not an indictment or allegation of superfluous verbosity describing how other should "enjoy" the game.

 

The MMO industry is changing. Levels of intensity and game enjoyment will be different.

Some areas will include a more "open" area like those on Ossus and on Onderon ! (Which to me is a good thing !)

 

IMO... Learning and growing is always a good thing : for everyone ! (even a crusty old dude like me .. And yes. I find myself trying to learn new stuff all the time !

 

I'll try to post more later. But I really do have my back to the wall right now. It may take a while !

 

 

Real quick to your points:

 

1) I know it isn't dying - that was also my point for those who like to be negative around here.

2) Agreed

3) I don't believe it to be misguided given the context. The majority of complaints other than the brevity of Onslaught and crafting, have been about people who are complaining they can't complete content as easily as they used to by themselves. The game isn't 100% anti solo, but they now have their niche. And they don't like that.

 

Oh well...

[Goreshaga]

Real quick to your points:

 

1) I know it isn't dying - that was also my point for those who like to be negative around here.

2) Agreed

3) I don't believe it to be misguided given the context. The majority of complaints other than the brevity of Onslaught and crafting, have been about people who are complaining they can't complete content as easily as they used to by themselves. The game isn't 100% anti solo, but they now have their niche. And they don't like that.

 

Oh well...

Problem is when some solo/story parts are so broken you're unable to, you know... advance your story.

I'm stuck on Iokath on one of my characters because of the Sentinel/welker fight, that's pretty annoying...

[JennyFlynn]

Don't you ever grow tired of these massive, rambling, soapbox threads you keep making?

 

As a staunch solo/story player, I personally haven't experienced any of this increased difficulty people are talking about (and I know I'm lucky in that case). On top of that, my own experience is oftentimes everything feels harder when level/scaling changes are involved, especially starting a new expac (bugs, scaling issues etc). It'll balance out over time as it usually does.

 

Now, yap about solo being niche all you want but who do you think are the people who keep rolling new toons to play the Knight story for the 20th time while others take breaks due to a lack of new Ops/refreshing group content? I wouldn't be too quick shoving solo players into a 'niche' corner and preaching increased difficulty when those same solo players make a rather significant contribution to the overall health of this game with their continued play and armies of story and romance alts.

 

Then there is your point "The majority of complaints other than the brevity of Onslaught and crafting, have been about people who are complaining they can't complete content as easily as they used to by themselves." which is odd because, plenty of complaints are also along the lines of "me and my wife can't", "me and my son can't", with a lot of people tackling content in pairs that they used to be able to handle as intended and now cannot. Comments of "I joined a FP last night and the bosses were okay but we kept wiping on trash and had to quit". Did those escape your notice or do they inconvenience your not-so-subtle attempts at trying to undermine solo play? I mean, why else would you make yet another thread regarding this subject while trying to mask it as "an interesting transitory period" discussion?

 

At its core, this game tries to and often does provide content for all. Story, solo, group, those heavily into endgame progression, PvP. People who just want to sit on their hindsides for 8 hours decorating a danged stronghold and so forth. There isn't any need to shove anyone into niche existence or prioritize one over the other, and the devs would be fools if that was their actual intent.

 

The game isn't 100% anti solo, but they now have their niche. And they don't like that.

 

Oh well...

Honestly, why are you so eager to display such animosity toward solo players and their recent gripes? Given all your lengthy threads praising the expansion, I'd imagine you have plenty to occupy and entertain yourself with without acting like this omniscient poo stirrer on the forums.

Edited November 4, 2019 by JennyFlynn

[DarthSpuds]

Oh look, another "Onslaught is great, despite ALL the evidence to the contrary" thread by Zion.

 

I saw 4 old friends come back.

Played through one on Imp, once on Rep.

Looked at "gearing up" and thought "n'ah, that's bantha poo-doo".

Looked at crafting and said "What The Force! That makes gearing up look sane" and left again.

 

They may be back next time there's some more actual content, rather than artificially extended Super-Grinds pretending to be content. Sure Bioware got a single month's sub out of 4 players; two of whom are unlikely to trust the next content drop because of how Crafting and Gearing were handled this time.

 

But this transitory period is somewhat interesting; players return, see just how out of touch Bioware are with the players and leave again, reinforcing the prevailing view that Onslaught is all mouth and no trousers, and just a massive super-grind with 2 hours actual content tagged on as window-dressing.

 

All The Best

Edited November 4, 2019 by DarthSpuds

[Gelious]

I'm stuck on Iokath on one of my characters because of the Sentinel/welker fight, that's pretty annoying...

This one got fixed. You may still die after killing 2 of 3 sentinels if you don't do everything quick and good enough, but you respawn with full health afterwards so no problem, really.

Don't you ever grow tired of these massive, rambling, soapbox threads you keep making?

 

This guy is hell-bent on seeing something good in current state of the game, I say, let him - if nothing else, its at least funny.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Gelious

[Trobon]

There's a reason I put Zion on ignore. I take it from the context this is another "Solo players are the ones complaining about Onslaught, but this is an MMO" threads. Nevermind how many PvP/OPs players have been critical of the expansion and how many solo players have praised it. If its not all in one camp then who will Zion blame?

 

The crafting changes, the RNG gear, the increase in tedium, etc. is not an all solo problem like some would like to believe. It is an issue for players across the spectrum. Additionally, some of the difficulty threads have touched on problem areas for both groups and solo players. Bowdarr's alliance alert has you fight three level 75 silvers while you get it in a level 65 part of the game, and are downscaled to level 70 even if you are overleveled. This is a problem. Groups have been reporting vet flashpoints completely disintigrating players to the point where they are refusing to group with lowbies because the time investment isn't worth it. That is a problem.

 

There are plenty of great things about Onslaught and Zion has made sure to tell us about them time and again, but shoving your head in the sand, claiming its all solo players who are upset, and acting like a short term boost in players on the fleet will lead to long term retention isn't going to do anything for the actual problems in the game right now.

[DWho]

I think if you look at your data a bit more closely you'd find you have you player types flipped. We are in the first few weeks of an expansion so the vast majority of players that have come back will have done so for the new story. 1 new OP and 1 new flashpoint aren't going to satisfy the "This is an MMO" crowd. A few weeks from now, it is very likely you will see the same drop off in population that has occurred in every expansion of this game. Once the new story content is consumed people leave (or at least unsub) until the next round. The grinders will still be around, but by then they will have determined the lowest effort way to gain gear and only that piece of group content will be active (right now that looks like Hammer Station again).

 

Also, story players are the ones least likely to be concerned about things that change the rate at which they level. To them leveling is just what happens along the way. The ones who are trying to power level are the end game/group players (particularly those that don't want to spend CCs on start at tokens) and the elite players that used to solo harder content. Want to find out which group is which, get rid of the start at tokens and the end game crowd will go ballistic (like they did in 2.0) about having to level their characters "at a snails pace" to play end game. What is annoying to the "story" payers is having to keep running back to a mission from the healing station every time they die (True story players are generally the ones who have been around since launch and remained subbed the whole time). A battle taking longer than normal concerns them a lot less than the time spent running back and forth because running back and forth breaks the story immersion/chain.

 

The simplest fix right now for the "we want it hard" crowd and the "We'd like it a little easier" crowd would be to put the shield ability back on the companions. That way the people who want it harder could simply turn off that one ability and it would be just like it is now and it would make a huge difference for those struggling to survive some of the broken fights in the game right now. The heal they replaced it with is just about worthless since it heals such a small amount and only does that every other GCD.

[Azerdayne]

Name me an MMO that releases an expansion within 1 month of another expansion. Because either you are demanding that, or being deliberately obtuse.

 

My point was only this - can bioware follow up on Onslaught and start putting out a steady stream of content?

 

In their March 2019 Article called Under the Hood, they detailed upgrading their engine to do just that.

 

Can they deliver?

 

If they can drop a new FP and a little bit more story content before the end of the year - I'd say yes. If its typical bioware where they all go into hibernation at this point and we don't hear anything of significance back from them until March or April, then I'd definitely say no.

 

The thing to understand is that it was never being understaffed that was the issue. It was their business model from the beginning that was bad - their business model was to have players go away and unsub until they put something new out. Its a BAD model. Now, if they are going to change that, need to show it first.

 

But they made a good first move. They need to be able to follow up on it.

 

This. If they can release *something* before the end of the year, I think it would be a big morale booster & a strong indicator that content will be coming out at an improved cadence. Or if they announce something substantive *and actually deliver* before the end of February.

 

If we don't see anything until "the end of February" (i.e. delayed to late March, April, or May), it will seem like same-old-Bioware, and I worry/suspect that a lot of people will leave (or be gone) to play other games until the next major update.

[XxHazenxX]

Name me an MMO that releases an expansion within 1 month of another expansion. Because either you are demanding that, or being deliberately obtuse.

 

Your first problem is labeling this as an "expansion" to begin with... It's a very far cry away from being an expansion regardless of how many times EAWare call it as such. It's not even the size of an ESO DLC, and those are released constantly. That's just one example. I think it's safe to say that by the standards set by every other AAA MMO that 1) This game gets worse and worse at having a constant flow of content and 2) This game has objectively the worst and most inconsistent update history of every western MMO on the market, which is hilariously sad because as a Star Wars game, this SHOULD be at the top of the MMO charts. It has earned EA $1 billion, but it definitely has not seen that reflected in support, regular updates, and regular content added.

[Goreshaga]

This one got fixed. You may still die after killing 2 of 3 sentinels if you don't do everything quick and good enough, but you respawn with full health afterwards so no problem, really.

Main problem was that a 4th sentinel poped up while i was finishing the 3rd one and killed me.

It's already long and annoying enough with 3 without being locked in an endless fight if whenever i'm about to kill the last one, more keep coming...

[Jadescythe]

3) I don't believe it to be misguided given the context. The majority of complaints other than the brevity of Onslaught and crafting, have been about people who are complaining they can't complete content as easily as they used to by themselves. The game isn't 100% anti solo, but they now have their niche. And they don't like that.

 

Oh well...

 

I think most of the complaints are valid after looking into the complaints myself. Generally scaling of content being poor in some areas with a splash of people complaining about mobs taking longer to kill. I personally like the slight increase in time to do things, but most of the complaints have been valid, especially in regards to older content. Telling people to group for content that is no longer relevant when it was previously easily completable solo is just trolling at this point. Good luck finding someone to help with Heroic Star Fortress to get the companions.

[Trobon]

Your first problem is labeling this as an "expansion" to begin with... It's a very far cry away from being an expansion regardless of how many times EAWare call it as such. It's not even the size of an ESO DLC, and those are released constantly. That's just one example. I think it's safe to say that by the standards set by every other AAA MMO that 1) This game gets worse and worse at having a constant flow of content and 2) This game has objectively the worst and most inconsistent update history of every western MMO on the market, which is hilariously sad because as a Star Wars game, this SHOULD be at the top of the MMO charts. It has earned EA $1 billion, but it definitely has not seen that reflected in support, regular updates, and regular content added.

 

ESO really does have one of the best and most consistent release schedules. twice a year (every six months) they release two new dungeons, once a year in between those two they release a small zone with a new storyline, and once a year they release an expansion with a large zone, new storyline, and a raid. That's been pretty much clockwork for them for the past three years and its amazing.

 

I wish SWTOR had gone the model of making people actually pay for expansions and/or subs get them only as long as they are subbed like ESO does. It encourages constant content production rather than constant cosmetic production for the store.