Time to nerf Deception assassin's dps or everyone will play only assassin

[ottffsse]

People complained on first round of pts that sins were not pulling their weight on dummies (rightly), and in classic bioware style they buffed their set etc "merc" style.

[omaan]

I agree here. Just check it - https://imgur.com/a/weZr6Vj

Sin top dps, sin has 21k protection, sin 300k healing (from what lol?From swaping damn tactical items ofcourse). This is a joke..one class can guard, cc, taunt, survive and do top dps.... time to go playing sin

 

Pretty proves much my point. Today one of sins rushed in enemy team without stealth in hope to taunt them from his jugg team mates. And it worked pretty good..he used two force cloaks one by one then saber ward with deflection utility then he vanished regen to full hp and while running back changed his tactical item to life warden which allowed him to heal himself greatly when we rushed him second time... if sins can allow themselves such bold and fearless zerg means they are same as tanks lol

Edited November 4, 2019 by omaan

[Jdast]

Pretty proves much my point. Today one of sins rushed in enemy team without stealth in hope to taunt them from his jugg team mates. And it worked pretty good..he used two force cloaks one by one then saber ward with deflection utility then he vanished regen to full hp and while running back changed his tactical item to life warden which allowed him to heal himself greatly when we rushed him second time... if sins can allow themselves such bold and fearless zerg means they are same as tanks lol

 

What is your proposed solution that does not impact PvE?

 

Dasty

[Seterade]

What is your proposed solution that does not impact PvE?

 

Dasty

 

increased sustained dps and reduce burst windows.

 

dps in swtor is balanced around two things, sustained damage and burst windows. burst win control pvp, meanwhile both sustained damage and burst perform well in pve, although sus dmg performs better because it tends to have better energy managment... ie for longer fights.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Seterade

[ThePsyEagle]

How about we wait with calling for nerfs untill everyone is geared? The only reason you see people getting upset right now about sins is because they were the first geared people. So they were pretty abundant in pvp in the first week while a lot of other classes/people still had 270-280 gear. And just because a class got something new and you haven't learned to deal with it yet doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. Don't get me wrong, there might be a nerf needed, I just don't want to get them nerfed to the ground again because everyone is upset about it.

Little sidenote: I am saying all this as a non-sin main

Edited November 5, 2019 by ThePsyEagle

[omaan]

Those ppl arent skilled at all. I did 11k dps on anni mara in arena in 274 gear. Did 72k ambush in 272 gear, did 8-9 up to 11k on deception assassin in arena and today pulled close to 9k dps on Fury mara without any set bonus.

 

I saw an operative in AH doing 20k dps. So your whole thread is more like L2P issue.

 

"If I cant beat them, lets make a thread to nerf 'em".

 

 

Screen shots of your words pls. Difficult to believe in ur stats with that gear if only ur enemies were just standing like target dummied while you recked them

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

while other burst classes doing 33-48 crits (except snipers who can do 60k) assassin's with maul which is an instant ability doing 60-70 k. Skilled Marauders, opers and mercs doing 5-6 k dps while sins doing 7-8k dps.

No sense to play anything else than sin atm

 

Aaaand now you're outright lying.

 

changed his tactical item to life warden which allowed him to heal himself greatly when we rushed him second time...

 

If your team couldn't damage through Life Warden... I am not sure anything will help you.

 

4vs1 is easy if the sin/mara knows what they're doing & have the right tact/amps/set.

 

Unless you're talking about 4v1 where the "4" is 4 idle target dummies, then no, there's no way a sin can even 2v1 ANY other class combination.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

That feel when Pyro PT goes under the radar when it's doing 19-20k DPS in arenas, and 70k-90k damage AoE fire fall explosions, but we want sin nerfed. Edited November 5, 2019 by Jinre_the_Jedi

[JediMasterAlex]

That feel when Pyro PT goes under the radar when it's doing 19-20k DPS in arenas, and 70k-90k damage AoE fire fall explosions, but we want sin nerfed.

 

PTs can't stealth out, heal to full, and swap tacticals multiple times per round. If they're an actual glass cannon now, that's not so bad.

[DzastinBiberi]

Screen shots of your words pls. Difficult to believe in ur stats with that gear if only ur enemies were just standing like target dummied while you recked them

 

I havent made an SS of my Fury mara pulling almost 9k in HB, also I dont have an SS of my dec sin from that arena, I havent made SS of those two games, but I do have an SS of my anni mara pulling 11k and my sniper pulling 72k ambush. I will post those when I get home from work.

 

Trust me when I say that 5k in arena is nothing since 6.0 dropped, 'cause I pulled 7.7k in Voidstar on my skank sin (tank in dps gear).

 

What needs to be nerfed is PT skanks, mostly because I saw PT skank with pocket healer puling 18k in Vandin and that amount of dps coming from a skank tank is just insane.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

PTs can't stealth out, heal to full, and swap tacticals multiple times per round. If they're an actual glass cannon now, that's not so bad.

 

https://clips.twitch.tv/EnthusiasticGenerousJayEleGiggle

 

But 19k DPS though, it's insane. It's actually really weird how everyone is on the Sin hype train when PT can literally do 90k AoE and has more pressure than 4.0 Hatred Sin

 

 

Hatred Sin was also the definition of a glass cannon and they got chain nerfed.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Jinre_the_Jedi

[CaptRogue]

Unless you're talking about 4v1 where the "4" is 4 idle target dummies, then no, there's no way a sin can even 2v1 ANY other class combination.

 

Never said it was a sin. In the case I was referring too I am pretty sure it was a mara/sent.

But I still stand by statement here or in the other thread. Tacticals/Amplifiers/Set bonuses will quickly overshadow the non-stated players.

[JediMasterAlex]

https://clips.twitch.tv/EnthusiasticGenerousJayEleGiggle

 

But 19k DPS though, it's insane. It's actually really weird how everyone is on the Sin hype train when PT can literally do 90k AoE and has more pressure than 4.0 Hatred Sin

 

 

Hatred Sin was also the definition of a glass cannon and they got chain nerfed.

 

I mean, you might be right, maybe they are doing too much damage. But you can spread out to avoid cleave, and PTs still are weaker defensively than anything else from my understanding.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

I mean, you might be right, maybe they are doing too much damage. But you can spread out to avoid cleave, and PTs still are weaker defensively than anything else from my understanding.

 

Hatred sin is weaker than PT defensively. It has to be the weakest defensive spec in the game right next to Lethality Operative, maybe it's slightly above Lethality, though I doubt it.

 

Edit: Regarding "just standing out of cleave" couldn't that argument be applied for Hatred too? But that wouldn't have been considered a good argument back then.

 

Also PTs have grapple and can even take a tactical to allow them to grapple twice to ensure that they cleave at least 3 people. Idk, it's still early, but my gut tells me that PT will be nerfed once more people catch on about it's power level.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Jinre_the_Jedi

[JediMasterAlex]

Hatred sin is weaker than PT defensively. It has to be the weakest defensive spec in the game right next to Lethality Operative, maybe it's slightly above Lethality, though I doubt it.

 

Edit: Regarding "just standing out of cleave" couldn't that argument be applied for Hatred too? But that wouldn't have been considered a good argument back then.

 

Also PTs have grapple and can even take a tactical to allow them to grapple twice to ensure that they cleave at least 3 people. Idk, it's still early, but my gut tells me that PT will be nerfed once more people catch on about it's power level.

 

I wasn't playing the game between 2014 and early 2018 so I can't comment on hatred sins back then. but both sins and ops, regardless of spec, can still stealth out and heal to full multiple times per round. I don't get why that gets discounted so frequently.

 

There were a few hatred sins on star forge that were playing at a high level during season 10-11, and they were not nearly as squishy as pts or juggs. PTs have no viable escape or anti-focus. Is their new dcd so good that it makes up for that?

Edited November 5, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[Jadescythe]

Not considering that the 3-4 vs the 1 where basically fresh 75's aka low iLvl gear compared to a geared 306.

I didn't claim to be the best, as I was on my weak dps sage when I was running that one, but as I glanced at all our iLvls as the match was ending, I think the highest iLvl in our group was a 280+ but when I did a quick scan of what I could of the enemies, they were all 300+ so not it's not an overstatement.

 

Like I said give it a few weeks & it will level out.

The ones wrecking ppl & being OP right now are just the players who have no RL & have run hundreds of HS or stealth RR & then spent millions on their tacts/amps w set bonus so they can be the best & then claim gearing was easy.

 

PvP seems fine to me, in regs anyway. First game back after not PvPing in months in whatever gear I found after hitting 75 as a Vengeance Jugg. I don't think gear is a major gap right now.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

I wasn't playing the game between 2014 and early 2018 so I can't comment on hatred sins back then. but both sins and ops, regardless of spec, can still stealth out and heal to full multiple times per round. I don't get why that gets discounted so frequently.

 

There were a few hatred sins on star forge that were playing at a high level during season 10-11, and they were not nearly as squishy as pts or juggs. PTs have no viable escape or anti-focus. Is their new dcd so good that it makes up for that?

 

It gets discounted because it's not a strict advantage like people like to claim. Doing this puts your team at an immediate disadvantage numbers wise, turning a 4v4 into a 3v4, not to mention how often you vanish and are still in combat and have to just stalk around and wait to drop combat which adds even more time for your team to be at a disadvantage. I'm not sure if you play Assassin or not, but generally speaking, people who don't play the class think that Vanish is a pure upside skill when it's not. That point is better understood though by people who play the class on a regular basis.

 

Btw, I'm not saying that vanish is bad or useless. I'm just saying that it's not nearly as great as people make it out to be.

 

Regarding playing Hatred and having success, you can have success with anything, people have had really good success with Lethality and I've seen some really good Anni Marauders in ranked too. But let's not conflate success with a spec to mean that they are balanced.

 

Edit: Here's a good example of what i mean https://i.imgur.com/GkD6swr.jpg

 

2 of the shadows went off to heal and then we had to 2v3 the enemy when we were already low and lost. It's not a strict upside.

 

https://i.imgur.com/cg1GqMF.jpg I'm still in combat and they have to 3v4.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Jinre_the_Jedi

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

PvP seems fine to me, in regs anyway. First game back after not PvPing in months in whatever gear I found after hitting 75 as a Vengeance Jugg. I don't think gear is a major gap right now.

 

In regs, I agree 100%, everything is actually pretty balanced well within each other, even things like Pyrotech PT which is just vomitting damage is actually pretty balanced in regs.

 

I think the main argument is that people want certain specs nerfed in a Ranked environment. Though perhaps people also want things to be nerfed for regs as well, I'm unsure.

[Jadescythe]

In regs, I agree 100%, everything is actually pretty balanced well within each other, even things like Pyrotech PT which is just vomitting damage is actually pretty balanced in regs.

 

I think the main argument is that people want certain specs nerfed in a Ranked environment. Though perhaps people also want things to be nerfed for regs as well, I'm unsure.

 

People always want whatever they aren't playing nerfed. No reason to change anything in ranked when the meta hasn't even started to form.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

People always want whatever they aren't playing nerfed. No reason to change anything in ranked when the meta hasn't even started to form.

 

I totally agree, we need to wait a long while for everyone to gear up and to see how the balance actually shakes up, but ya know, this is the PvP forum, and knee-jerk calls for nerfs are what we do best here lol

[JediMasterAlex]

It gets discounted because it's not a strict advantage like people like to claim.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I think it's far, far better than people give it credit for. It's not just the stealth out either for sins and ops, it's the ability to choose when you engage, both initially and after each stealth out. The option to offguard is also frequently underrated. Sure, sometimes you get stuck in combat or popped out of stealth. That happens a minority of the time. I similarly think people inappropriately discount mara stealth out and heal to full.

 

Doing this puts your team at an immediate disadvantage numbers wise, turning a 4v4 into a 3v4

 

That applies to most classes survival-wise, except for mercs that could just face tank damage. For example, if a sorc wants to survive longer, he has to kite, severely limiting his damage potential, especially as madness. And if you're kiting and self-healing, you're also not doing damage. When you're using barrier and phase walk, it's basically a 3v4, same as when a sin is in stealth. The difference is that the sorc can be controlled, and his movements tracked and anticipated with ease. Stealth is a complete game changer. I think stealth mains take it for granted.

 

Regarding playing Hatred and having success, you can have success with anything, people have had really good success with Lethality and I've seen some really good Anni Marauders in ranked too. But let's not conflate success with a spec to mean that they are balanced.

 

Sure. I exclusively played madness on my sorc the last two seasons and spent most of my time 1500+. But if a spec is capable of success, like madness and hatred were, they can't be that terrible. In contrast, there were literally 0 dps pts that got to 1500+ in season 11 on Star Forge. There were also very few dps juggs having success. In my extensive experience during seasons 10 and 11 (thousands of games) I saw hatred sins and leth ops have far more success than dps pts and dps juggs.

[mhobin]

That applies to most classes survival-wise, except for mercs that could just face tank damage. For example, if a sorc wants to survive longer, he has to kite, severely limiting his damage potential, especially as madness. And if you're kiting and self-healing, you're also not doing damage. When you're using barrier and phase walk, it's basically a 3v4, same as when a sin is in stealth. The difference is that the sorc can be controlled, and his movements tracked and anticipated with ease. Stealth is a complete game changer. I think stealth mains take it for granted.

 

 

 

Silly argument. You can’t compare a sorc stealthing to a sorc kiting. If a sorc is kiting well that means all the attention is on him. If a sin is stealth the al, the focus on a teammate. By your accounting it is a 2v4.

 

I have mained a shadow for years. I have not played in the last few, but vanish works 50% of the time, even with the resilience trait picked. Most of the time you stay in combat. Vanish is good but it is not anywhere near as good as any merc dcd.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I think it's far, far better than people give it credit for. It's not just the stealth out either for sins and ops, it's the ability to choose when you engage, both initially and after each stealth out. The option to offguard is also frequently underrated. Sure, sometimes you get stuck in combat or popped out of stealth. That happens a minority of the time. I similarly think people inappropriately discount mara stealth out and heal to full.

 

This is an argument for why Stealth as a mechanic is strong, no one disagrees that stealth as a mechanic is strong and strictly a positive on the class. But that's not what you were arguing, you specifically said you don't understand why people discount being able to vanish and heal up to full. That's not something that's possible without using an ability that goes on cooldown. Vanish is not a purely upside ability. Stealth as a mechanic is. Two different things. I also don't think offguarding is underrated at all, it gets complained about all the time, I think it's rated appropriately by the public at this point lol.

 

That applies to most classes survival-wise, except for mercs that could just face tank damage. For example, if a sorc wants to survive longer, he has to kite, severely limiting his damage potential, especially as madness. And if you're kiting and self-healing, you're also not doing damage. When you're using barrier and phase walk, it's basically a 3v4, same as when a sin is in stealth. The difference is that the sorc can be controlled, and his movements tracked and anticipated with ease. Stealth is a complete game changer. I think stealth mains take it for granted.

 

Not really because ranged DPS are able to spec in ways that allow them to kite while simultaneously dealing damage. When you vanish out to heal up, you are contributing nothing at all to your team, you deal 0 damage and aren't even there to soak damage (even soaking damage is a huge benefit for your team, for obvious reasons since damage taken by you is damage not taken by your team).

 

Sure. I exclusively played madness on my sorc the last two seasons and spent most of my time 1500+. But if a spec is capable of success, like madness and hatred were, they can't be that terrible. In contrast, there were literally 0 dps pts that got to 1500+ in season 11 on Star Forge. There were also very few dps juggs having success. In my extensive experience during seasons 10 and 11 (thousands of games) I saw hatred sins and leth ops have far more success than dps pts and dps juggs.

 

I guess that depends on your definition of terrible. The best player on a class can make a spec that's totally underwhelming look "average", even though that "average" baseline would equate to an above average baseline for any class that was in an OK spot.

[ajiehblr]

I don't understand why all pretent to be waiting for people to gear up. Like it's not a secret that best PvP people already have multiple 306 toons since day 2. And there is boolster at max right now. Also Krea tested sin on full 306 toon too. So it's pretty obvious that nothing will change if we wait 1 day 1 week or month. Thing isn't in maul hitting 60+ but that sins do it 3 time in a row making 80% HP burst. And able to do it multiple times per Arena round. And it's just 1 sin if you got 2 and more in your team? And there are already Sins all over the Ranked. I can't imagine a match without multiple sins in team right now and as times go on it will be only worse. But yeah, let's def Sins till season starts and enjoy Sins fest.

[TrixxieTriss]

People always want whatever they aren't playing nerfed. No reason to change anything in ranked when the meta hasn't even started to form.

 

Maybe merc players?