Can We Please Stop

[Lhancelot]

So yes, there is every reason to be nice. Most of us have seen the results of the community not being nice. There's an old adage, "If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all".

 

That's a good statement to follow, but in the proper context. Also, being critical isn't being mean, I think people get this confused. It seems that nowadays people are always looking for ways to be offended or insulted when what is written or said isn't personal at all.

 

Choosing to participate in a thread is 100% choice, so I have no sympathy for someone that complains they are tired of reading complaints. It's like taking a bite of burnt toast, then complaining how much I hate burnt toast. Well, maybe I ought not take a bite of the burnt toast?

 

I mean we actually all want the game to be better, if we didn't we wouldn't be here discussing this. Being upset and emotional because someone else is critical of the game and writes how they feel about it shouldn't upset anyone imo, except for the studio themselves... especially if the criticisms are accurate. (Which they are.) Sometimes it's necessary to accept the truth even when it's not nice.

[Rion_Starkiller]

That's a good statement to follow, but in the proper context. Also, being critical isn't being mean, I think people get this confused. It seems that nowadays people are always looking for ways to be offended or insulted when what is written or said isn't personal at all.

 

I don't think people are offended, they are just tired of the endless forum whines. I was in a PVP guild where one guy named his toon "Forumcrybaby." I am in another PVE guild where the GM -- an older guy -- said he doesn't even read the forums (even tho he's on the PTS) because "that's where millennials go to complain about everything."

 

You guys don't get it. You are a meme to half the population of this game. So forgive us if we "white knights" are trying to make the forums a better-ish place (though I think I'm more of a gray knight).

 

If you wouldn't say something to someone in a conversation, you shouldn't say it on the internet. \_(ツ)_/¯

If you are proud of your posts, wear your main toon name in your signature so people can see who you are in game. My main is Beruhl. I'm a scoundrel and I play on SF.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Rion_Starkiller

[Lhancelot]

You guys don't get it. You are a meme to half the population of this game. So forgive us if we "white knights" are trying to make the forums a better place (though I think I'm more of a gray knight ). If you don't have the balls to say something to someone's face, you shouldn't post it on the internet. \_(ツ)_/¯

 

Being a "white knight" is just as much of a meme as a "forum crybaby." Truth be told I never worry about what others think about me so that doesn't bother me if someone classifies me as a "meme." Is that what you worry about?

 

Everything I write is about the game, nothing I write is anything I'd have to hide behind a keyboard to write. None of my criticisms of the game are personal attacks on anyone.

 

You are taking things way out of context and making my point for me. Obviously you take criticisms of the game personally which perplexes me tbh.

[OlBuzzard]

edited ..

 

deleted …

 

done !!

Edited September 27, 2019 by OlBuzzard

[kodrac]

And surely, you could stop adding to the mess with your constant counter-productive confrontational posts, but there we are.

Can't/won't.

 

And surely you can stop adding to the mess with your constant complaining about complaining. Ironic isn't it?

Edited September 25, 2019 by kodrac

[Rion_Starkiller]

Being a "white knight" is just as much of a meme as a "forum crybaby." Truth be told I never worry about what others think about me so that doesn't bother me if someone classifies me as a "meme." Is that what you worry about?

 

Everything I write is about the game, nothing I write is anything I'd have to hide behind a keyboard to write. None of my criticisms of the game are personal attacks on anyone.

 

You are taking things way out of context and making my point for me. Obviously you take criticisms of the game personally which perplexes me tbh.

 

Clearly, I'm not worried about what anyone else thinks as evidenced by my posts. But that was a great try to turn it around on me. You may not do personal attacks per se, but you do passive aggressive very well.

 

Regarding "critical of the game": there's a difference between saying "I don't like X because Y. This is not what you are doing. You post as if you speak for a majority of people.

 

PS - I'm trying to evaluate myself responding to your posts -- I think what I don't like is that your posts do not seem to be constructive. To me, it feels like you are s***********g all over "my" game.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Rion_Starkiller

[Rion_Starkiller]

And surely you can stop adding to the mess with your constant complaining about complaining. Ironic isn't it?

 

And you can't stop posting snarky one-liners even though you quit the game? Moar irony

[OlBuzzard]

And you can't stop posting snarky one-liners even though you quit the game? Moar irony

 

HEY ! I happen to like his snarky remarks ! (they help keep the rest of us in line !! Trust me .. I need all the help I can get some days)

 

:D:D

[Rion_Starkiller]

HEY ! I happen to like his snarky remarks ! (they help keep the rest of us in line !! Trust me .. I need all the help I can get some days)

 

:D:D

 

Who doesn't ? i'm not complaining

Edited September 25, 2019 by Rion_Starkiller

[kodrac]

And you can't stop posting snarky one-liners even though you quit the game? Moar irony

 

They're better on cookie time.

 

Also, on topic, I completely disagree with the OP. It doesn't hurt anyone to make suggestions. They (BW) might surprise you and do them once in a while. There's been plenty of times I've said oh that'll never happen and then it's in a later QoL update. Of course, there's been plenty of times I've said nope, the engine's a piece of crap, ain't happening and it's never happened. Point is, not everyone is a game design expert and telling people to stop making suggestions, even if they do seem out there in your expert opinion, is counterproductive and a bit a of a forum nazi. No one likes forum nazis.

Edited September 25, 2019 by kodrac

[TrixxieTriss]

And surely, you could stop adding to the mess with your constant counter-productive confrontational posts, but there we are.

Can't/won't.

 

Pot meet kettle

[Rion_Starkiller]

Where's Luna? These forums are in dire need of a warm fuzzy Theron Shan <3 love thread

[TrixxieTriss]

Where's Luna? These forums are in dire need of a warm fuzzy Theron Shan <3 love thread

 

How about a warm fuzzy Khem love thread? Isn’t that how we ended up with a romance option for Khem

 

And yes, where is Luna?

Edited September 25, 2019 by TrixxieTriss

[OlBuzzard]

Who doesn't ? i'm not complaining

 

Ditto .. sorry .. I should have made that a tad more clear !! My bad !!

[OlBuzzard]

edited... deleted

 

done !

Edited September 27, 2019 by OlBuzzard

[Monumenta]

I think everyone should suggest whatever they would like no matter how infeasible or possible and we should all discuss how we would like it to be done or if we wouldn't like it and why even if the idea is impossible or not feasible because its more entertaining for everyone and it's the developers job to decide that and the more we discuss ideas the more information they have about what the community wants and likes and how they can serve us better in whatever way they deem possible and feasible.

 

All this constant talk of what cant be done doesn't give anyone any information on anything, it makes for a dull read and it's a complete waste of this space.

[Qouivandes]

i would have played GSF more had it had a PvE option to do missions, etc. the fact that its just a giant PvP fest with folks that can kill before you can even move just turned me off the entire expansion quickly. On occasion i try it out again and review all of the guides and helpful hints, but i appear to just not be as good as the folks who spend and have spent years honing their craft.

 

and thats all i gotta say about that.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Qouivandes

[Lhancelot]

I'm trying to evaluate myself responding to your posts -- I think what I don't like is that your posts do not seem to be constructive. To me, it feels like you are s***********g all over "my" game.

 

Cry me a river. It aint "your" game. That's the problem; a lot of self importance here, demanding others not say what they want because what you have to say is more important.

 

I can disagree with you, and accept that. I don't expect you to stop writing what you want just because I think it's "not constructive" which often times, it's not. The irony of your statements is you like to add snark at me but then you get all offended when you feel yourself criticized or even worse, when *your* game is criticized. lol!

 

But hey, that's fine. Sometimes something noteworthy can materialize out of what seems to be nothing good. I view threads as soil, and posts in these threads are like individual seeds. The seeds have a chance to grow into something worthwhile, then again sometimes they can grow into a dirty useless weed. You never know, though. That's why I never tell others to shut up, or stop posting. I can just ignore a post if I find it annoying etc.

 

Since you turned this into a personal issue with me, I'd like to point out I also create threads that have nothing to do with BW's crappy development choices. Since you like looking up post histories as you constantly bring up, why don't you look mine up and comment on the ones where I gave the game support and tried to bring attention to the good in it? Oh, that's right it's better to cherry pick and create this narrative that you want even if it's not completely true.

 

This thread was a troll thread, anyway. Glad we could accommodate it and stay on proper course with our own troll posts.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Cry me a river. It aint "your" game. That's the problem; a lot of self importance here, demanding others not say what they want because what you have to say is more important.

 

I can disagree with you, and accept that. I don't expect you to stop writing what you want just because I think it's "not constructive" which often times, it's not. The irony of your statements is you like to add snark at me but then you get all offended when you feel yourself criticized or even worse, when *your* game is criticized. lol!

 

But hey, that's fine. Sometimes something noteworthy can materialize out of what seems to be nothing good. I view threads as soil, and posts in these threads are like individual seeds. The seeds have a chance to grow into something worthwhile, then again sometimes they can grow into a dirty useless weed. You never know, though. That's why I never tell others to shut up, or stop posting. I can just ignore a post if I find it annoying etc.

 

Since you turned this into a personal issue with me, I'd like to point out I also create threads that have nothing to do with BW's crappy development choices. Since you like looking up post histories as you constantly bring up, why don't you look mine up and comment on the ones where I gave the game support and tried to bring attention to the good in it? Oh, that's right it's better to cherry pick and create this narrative that you want even if it's not completely true.

 

This thread was a troll thread, anyway. Glad we could accommodate it and stay on proper course with our own troll posts.

 

Self-important? Take a look in the mirror. Pretty classic to ignore everything but the PS part of my post that I added as my introspective speaking-aloud. Forum PvP is alive and well. You keep posting what you want, and I will keep posting about what I want, which currently happens to be the typical cry-about-the-next-big-thing-bandwagon threads. Fair?

 

As for posting history, I don't think I was referencing you, but I my generalization might have spilled over onto others. I don't typically respond to the pure trolls on the forum, except for maybe that one guy. You know who I mean.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Rion_Starkiller

[Damask_Rose]

Where's Luna? These forums are in dire need of a warm fuzzy Theron Shan <3 love thread

 

Lunafox quit months ago along with just about everyone else I know Hopefully Onslaught has a solid enough story to lure them back. A romanceable Scourge might do the trick!

 

Can we please stop making suggestions that we all know Bioware shouldn't do? Its 2019 we should all know what this game can/can't do by now and plenty of data from the MMO market on what works and what doesn't.

 

So why suggest AI teammates so people can solo ops? When that would take so much dev time for a few people who can't even be bothered to engage in the MMO part of this game. Why should Bioware take time out of making content? When you yourself could take 20 mins and form a group.

Blizzard took time to make AI for their latest expac and people hate that content and wished they focused on something else.

Why suggest a "classic" version of this game? When this MMO's vanilla content is totally different to other MMO's, its still worthwhile content people still play compared to people lvling in retail WoW and just missing 90% of the vanilla content.

Why suggest "customizable voices"? When you should know how long that would take.

 

If I ever see another open world space idea I'm going to lose my mind. (even Youtubers still talk about this when they should know it could never happen.)

 

My point is, stop suggesting stuff you should.... know by now, things that will not work in SWTOR, hasn't worked in another MMO, cant be done due to the engine or cant be done due to too much dev time.

 

I think you are wrong on just about every front.

 

We, as players, don't know how big an audience any of those features would have. Sure, they don't appeal to you, but they might very well have a big enough of an audience to be worthwhile additions. We, as players, come from diverse gaming backgrounds, so ideas that seem off the wall to one player can be a no-brainer to another who came from a different game. We, as players, also don't know how hard or expensive any of those ideas would be to implement.

 

-The solo player base in this game is not trivially small. Are enough solo players interested in soloing ops to make it worth while? I don't know. You don't know. Bioware doesn't know because that's not something their metrics can tell them.

 

-What worked or didn't work for one game is not a good prognosticator for this one. Again, every MMO is different and has a different player base.

 

-People suggest "Classic SWtOR" because they feel it was superior to what we have now and "Classic WoW" is a hot topic. FYI that thread was started as more of a discussion than a suggestion. Discussions are what these forums are designed for.

 

-If you had read the "customizable voices" voices thread you would see a sound editor posting about how easy it would be.

 

-Most people who want open space would have been happy with what GSF is, but in a pve version. The failure of GSF has quite a bit to do with poor implementation, rather than interest or feasibility.

 

In short, why try to stop people from wishing and dreaming? The more people discussing things the better. It's ok for them to want different things from you. Really. It is.

 

I think everyone should suggest whatever they would like no matter how infeasible or possible and we should all discuss how we would like it to be done or if we wouldn't like it and why even if the idea is impossible or not feasible because its more entertaining for everyone and it's the developers job to decide that and the more we discuss ideas the more information they have about what the community wants and likes and how they can serve us better in whatever way they deem possible and feasible.

 

All this constant talk of what cant be done doesn't give anyone any information on anything, it makes for a dull read and it's a complete waste of this space.

 

QFT

 

Now, can we please stop ************ at each other? THAT is what's counter productive. Get into your corners for a time out! And yes, I did say that in my very mean mommy voice!

[Lhancelot]

As for posting history, I don't think I was referencing you. I don't typically respond to the pure trolls on the forum, except for maybe that one guy. You know who I mean.

 

I have decided I am with the OP now. Can we please stop?

 

Anyway, no hard feelings. You hate all of my critical posts and threads I write about BW and their game design choices, and I tend to pour it on with little room to breath so I get it.

[Rion_Starkiller]

I have decided I am with the OP now. Can we please stop?

 

Anyway, no hard feelings. You hate all of my critical posts and threads I write about BW and their game design choices, and I tend to pour it on with little room to breath so I get it.

 

☮ truce ☮

I don't always disagree with you.

[ZIMMOZMAN]

 

We, as players, don't know how big an audience any of those features would have. Sure, they don't appeal to you, but they might very well have a big enough of an audience to be worthwhile additions. We, as players, come from diverse gaming backgrounds, so ideas that seem off the wall to one player can be a no-brainer to another who came from a different game. We, as players, also don't know how hard or expensive any of those ideas would be to implement.

 

Spoken like someone who has only ever played SWTOR. We have plenty of data from other MMO's on what works and what doesn't. What content people engaged with and what content people didn't.

 

The solo player base in this game is not trivially small. Are enough solo players interested in soloing ops to make it worth while? I don't know. You don't know. Bioware doesn't know because that's not something their metrics can tell them.

 

Bioware has data on everything Musco has said this many times. We do have this data since old ops were soloable before and people didn't do that content.

 

What worked or didn't work for one game is not a good prognosticator for this one. Again, every MMO is different and has a different player base.

 

Wrong, most MMO's encounter the same problems and we can see how they handled that problem and learn.

I will use the problem of having flashpoints/dungeons being irrelevant after a certain point of the gear curve as an example.

WoW fixed this by adding Mythic+ system and SWTOR made all old flash-points scaled to 70 and reward end game gear or currency.

 

People suggest "Classic SWtOR" because they feel it was superior to what we have now and "Classic WoW" is a hot topic. FYI that thread was started as more of a discussion than a suggestion. Discussions are what these forums are designed for.

 

Since all features and content from vanilla SWTOR is still in the game and still playable and done often. You are only missing the endgame gearing WHICH WAS HORRIBLE.

 

If you had read the "customizable voices" voices thread you would see a sound editor posting about how easy it would be.

 

Good to see you trust randoms on the internet. Plus It not just a sound editing problem. Musco has said many times it hard to mess with the vanilla code without *********** it.

 

Most people who want open space would have been happy with what GSF is, but in a pve version. The failure of GSF has quite a bit to do with poor implementation, rather than interest or feasibility.

 

GSF wouldn't of been better with a pve version LUL.

 

In short, why try to stop people from wishing and dreaming? The more people discussing things the better. It's ok for them to want different things from you. Really. It is.

 

It's not about what I want. Its about knowing the market and history of MMO's and knowing what content people engage with and what content people didn't engage with.

 

My personal feelings have nothing to do with this. If I wanted to suggest my ideas I would have. Like a Mythic+ system for SWTOR from WoW and Dxun could of been a good place for a never ending dungeon that sprawls through the jungle, like in FF14. Hell, the never ending dungeon/flashpoint isn't even something I would personally like, just know people engaged with it in FF14.

Edited September 26, 2019 by ZIMMOZMAN

[Damask_Rose]

Spoken like someone who has only ever played SWTOR. We have plenty of data from other MMO's on what works and what doesn't. What content people engaged with and what content people didn't.

 

I've been playing MMOs for twenty years. Lots and lots of them. The MMO landscape is widely varied. From experience I can tell you, what works in one MMO doesn't necessarily work for another. Game companies don't tend to share their data with their rivals either.

 

Bioware has data on everything Musco has said this many times. We do have this data since old ops were soloable before and people didn't do that content.

 

Having data and being able to draw accurate conclusions from it are two completely different thing. For one, knowing what people are doing is not the same as knowing why they are doing it or if they would rather be doing something else. Secondly, the people interpreting that data are only human. They have biases and they can make mistakes and they can be wrong.

 

People did do those old ops. Maybe not the people you knew, but others certainly did which is why there were complaints when they changed their levels to max. Plus some ops have mechanics that force at least a duo and were impossible to solo due to that.

 

Wrong, most MMO's encounter the same problems and we can see how they handled that problem and learn.

I will use the problem of having flashpoints/dungeons being irrelevant after a certain point of the gear curve as an example.

WoW fixed this by adding Mythic+ system and SWTOR made all old flash-points scaled to 70 and reward end game gear or currency.

 

There are other ways to avoid those problems and/or fix them. Having prestigious drops. In the first MMO I played, AC, some of the most popular group content remained popular for the life of the game despite the level of the loot quickly being obsolete because it was visually distinctive, plus the quests were just fun. People ran those quest repeatedly, not for uber gear, bur for fun and fluff.

 

This game once had some wonderful gear sets that people coveted for their aesthetics, but they got wiped out with the 4.0 changes. If people could run that old content for the old armor, I can assure you they would. Many players disliked how the old flashpoints got scaled and the old gear got removed. So your "solution" can also be viewed a different problem.

 

 

Since all features and content from vanilla SWTOR is still in the game and still playable and done often. You are only missing the endgame gearing WHICH WAS HORRIBLE.

 

Level sync got added. Mobs got weakened. Companions got re-done. Loot tables changed completely. Skill trees got replaced. Advanced classes became required. Pvp rewards got removed. Heroics got butchered. That's just off of the top of my head, I'm sure there are others. Obviously those aren't important to you, but they are to others.

 

 

Good to see you trust randoms on the internet. Plus It not just a sound editing problem. Musco has said many times it hard to mess with the vanilla code without *********** it.

 

I don't need to rely on a random, I know enough experts IRL. The code would really have to be a mess for voice modulation to be difficult. I'm not ruling that out, based on other things that should be simple that aren't (like adding in a new Twi'lek eye color) the code for this game really is horrid.

 

GSF wouldn't of been better with a pve version LUL.

 

That's your personal bias talking. It was a highly requested feature. Most of the people asking for off-the-rails flight wanted pve and were highly disappointed when GSF launched with only pvp.

 

 

It's not about what I want. Its about knowing the market and history of MMO's and knowing what content people engage with and what content people didn't engage with.

 

My personal feelings have nothing to do with this. If I wanted to suggest my ideas I would have. Like a Mythic+ system for SWTOR from WoW and Dxun could of been a good place for a never ending dungeon that sprawls through the jungle, like in FF14. Hell, the never ending dungeon/flashpoint isn't even something I would personally like, just know people engaged with it in FF14.

 

Nothing you have said has convinced me that you aren't talking about what YOU like and what YOU think would be poplar, which is exactly what everyone else is doing. You have also failed to establish why batting ideas around is a bad thing, other than YOU don't like those ideas.

 

I do know the history of MMOs quite well, and the market is an ever shifting beast that even the developers who are working in the field are having a hard time keeping up with. If MMO development were as simple as copying from a couple of other games there wouldn't be so many that founder and fail. Even the mighty WoW makes missteps and suffers for them, and I'm confident they have as much or more data than the SWtOR team does.

[ZIMMOZMAN]

Nothing you have said has convinced me that you aren't talking about what YOU like and what YOU think would be poplar, which is exactly what everyone else is doing. You have also failed to establish why batting ideas around is a bad thing, other than YOU don't like those ideas.

 

GSF is the perfect example on why batting around ideas is bad. We got GSF becuase of the community it flopped and Bioware had to keep putting resources into it over the years for the 4 people playing.

 

Well take your fan boi glasses off and read. The ideas weren't about if I think they were popular. Its about if they worked and had people engage with it or not.

 

Next you're going to say "oh you cant tell if GSF was failure impossible to have data on that."

Edited September 26, 2019 by ZIMMOZMAN