Scaling vs power stims/relics

[fire-breath]

I know there is another thread to post this in but this needs to get max exposure in my opinion. This needs to be fixed before 6.0 launches. If needed please delay 6.0 till you figured out what's wrong but don't ever launch the scaling system in this current state ..... please.

 

So what's wrong?

Essentially any power, mastery or endurance buff won't be applied to you while being level locked. This means any mastery relic is useless when entering a sub 75 area. This means any attack adrenal is useless. This means any stim that increases mastery/power is useless.

 

@Eric: Can you please respond to this issue? Really would like to know if your team is working on something to fix this.

[CarlGustaf]

I know there is another thread to post this in but this needs to get max exposure in my opinion. This needs to be fixed before 6.0 launches. If needed please delay 6.0 till you figured out what's wrong but don't ever launch the scaling system in this current state ..... please.

 

So what's wrong?

Essentially any power, mastery or endurance buff won't be applied to you while being level locked. This means any mastery relic is useless when entering a sub 75 area. This means any attack adrenal is useless. This means any stim that increases mastery/power is useless.

 

@Eric: Can you please respond to this issue? Really would like to know if your team is working on something to fix this.

 

Well, that is the case since 4.0 on every single instance so I doubt they will change it. I hope otherwise.

My suggestion would be to get a percentage multiplier for each level, for example, power, mastery and endurance get scaled-down with 0.8 of the level 75 Stat total. So better gear will increase these stats also in the older content.

[olagatonjedi]

I know there is another thread to post this in but this needs to get max exposure in my opinion. This needs to be fixed before 6.0 launches. If needed please delay 6.0 till you figured out what's wrong but don't ever launch the scaling system in this current state ..... please.

 

So what's wrong?

Essentially any power, mastery or endurance buff won't be applied to you while being level locked. This means any mastery relic is useless when entering a sub 75 area. This means any attack adrenal is useless. This means any stim that increases mastery/power is useless.

 

@Eric: Can you please respond to this issue? Really would like to know if your team is working on something to fix this.

Considering gear will be coming in droves, i dont feel this is a big issue. And stims and adrenals are easy enough to acquire, just carry both versions.

Edited August 24, 2019 by olagatonjedi

[fire-breath]

Considering gear will be coming in droves, i dont feel this is a big issue. And stims and adrenals are easy enough to acquire, just carry both versions.

 

I think you miss the point here olagatonjedi.

I'm not talking about gearing up. I'm talking about how a power stim doesn't work while being level locked.

 

 

 

For example, and this is real data by the way.

When standing on fleet I have 112.296 mastery and 7.180 power.

When entering hammerstation I get scaled to 7.390 mastery and 3.569 power.

This part is still fine.

 

However.

When I use an attack adrenal my power goes to ........ 3.569 power (yes, it does not change at all).

When my mastery relic procs my mastery goes to ...... 7.390 mastery (yes, also doesn't work).

 

As all operation and flashpoint content now becomes scaled, why would anyone need those relics anymore? They don't work for PvE content.

Obviously, I can use accuracy stims, crit/alacrity relics and crit/alac adrenals. But that's not my point. My point is that scaling is breaking the use of mastery, power and endurance procs/boosts.

 

 

@eric or anyone else from bioware: It would be very nice if someone could please respond at this issue. Please listen to your community on this one ....

[Toraak]

I think you miss the point here olagatonjedi.

I'm not talking about gearing up. I'm talking about how a power stim doesn't work while being level locked.

 

 

 

For example, and this is real data by the way.

When standing on fleet I have 112.296 mastery and 7.180 power.

When entering hammerstation I get scaled to 7.390 mastery and 3.569 power.

This part is still fine.

 

However.

When I use an attack adrenal my power goes to ........ 3.569 power (yes, it does not change at all).

When my mastery relic procs my mastery goes to ...... 7.390 mastery (yes, also doesn't work).

 

As all operation and flashpoint content now becomes scaled, why would anyone need those relics anymore? They don't work for PvE content.

Obviously, I can use accuracy stims, crit/alacrity relics and crit/alac adrenals. But that's not my point. My point is that scaling is breaking the use of mastery, power and endurance procs/boosts.

 

 

@eric or anyone else from bioware: It would be very nice if someone could please respond at this issue. Please listen to your community on this one ....

 

question, why wouldn't you use a Devastating vengeance relic then, which should work in area's where your level locked? Getting one of those shouldn't be to hard if we are getting gear in droves.

 

Another words use 2 different relics for when your level locked, and the normal SA/FR relics for level 75 content. You could also use either Adrenals to increase Critical for 15 seconds or Alacrity for 15 seconds in Level locked content.

 

So carry for level 75 content SA/FR relics, and Attack adrenals

Carry for level locked content DV/Primeval Fateseeler (which may now be a useful clicky relic), and either Critical or Alacrity Adrenals.

 

This isn't a perfect solution, but it would fix the issue of having useless relics and adrenals.

[olagatonjedi]

I think you miss the point here olagatonjedi.

I'm not talking about gearing up. I'm talking about how a power stim doesn't work while being level locked.

 

 

 

For example, and this is real data by the way.

When standing on fleet I have 112.296 mastery and 7.180 power.

When entering hammerstation I get scaled to 7.390 mastery and 3.569 power.

This part is still fine.

 

However.

When I use an attack adrenal my power goes to ........ 3.569 power (yes, it does not change at all).

When my mastery relic procs my mastery goes to ...... 7.390 mastery (yes, also doesn't work).

 

As all operation and flashpoint content now becomes scaled, why would anyone need those relics anymore? They don't work for PvE content.

Obviously, I can use accuracy stims, crit/alacrity relics and crit/alac adrenals. But that's not my point. My point is that scaling is breaking the use of mastery, power and endurance procs/boosts.

 

 

@eric or anyone else from bioware: It would be very nice if someone could please respond at this issue. Please listen to your community on this one ....

I understand exactly what you're saying. My point is that the previous issue with relics and stats were that there was literally 1 best option for all gear, and it was relatively easy to conclude. With level scaling, those power and mastery relics arent as efficient as the empheral mending or crit relics now, in the scaled areas. It creates a more dynamic, and less stale, gaming experience.

 

Players have given feedback regarding the uselessness of all the other relics, so this is a great way to integrate them, and give them purpose within the game. Just like class utilities, there will be optimal gearing selections that will provide more beneficial to completing the content.

Edited August 27, 2019 by olagatonjedi

[dipstik]

Well, that is the case since 4.0 on every single instance so I doubt they will change it. I hope otherwise.

My suggestion would be to get a percentage multiplier for each level, for example, power, mastery and endurance get scaled-down with 0.8 of the level 75 Stat total. So better gear will increase these stats also in the older content.

 

i like this far more than a cap

[LD_Little_Dragon]

I already carry 2 sets of gear around since I like being able to swap roles as needed, but do not plan to end up carrying 4 sets around due to level sync making the level 75 gear partially useless.

 

I'll probably just deal with the level sync caps for sub-75 areas the way I plan on dealing with amplifiers. By ignoring them. If that means my gear is optimal for level 75 areas, but sup-optimal for the level synced areas then so be it.

 

I also plan to ignore all those class set bonuses, and just go with one generic set for my dps/heals, and one for my tanks.

 

Ditto with tier 11 crafting. Ignore.

 

Amplifiers? Ignore.

 

Rng on Rng on Rng with armor pieces? Forget about anything approaching BiS and settle for 'good enough". In short, ignore.

 

If this means I can't do hardmode pve endgame content anymore, then it just means one more thing to ignore.

 

It's amazing how much simpler and less frustrating 6.0 starts to look when you ignore most of the gearing systems and all of the crafting.

[TrixxieTriss]

Well, that is the case since 4.0 on every single instance so I doubt they will change it. I hope otherwise.

My suggestion would be to get a percentage multiplier for each level, for example, power, mastery and endurance get scaled-down with 0.8 of the level 75 Stat total. So better gear will increase these stats also in the older content.

 

That’s not entirely true. The stims still work in lowbie pvp on live. I’m not sure about the pts because pvp doesn’t pop when I’m on.

[Hawkebatt]

I had my gripes about the level sync and it was not so much on the nerf to the stats but the lack of any balance to those stats. The way they changed it has really not made me any weaker or stronger, but it does have a negative effect on the low level toons from 10 to 11 or 16 to 17 could be an issue.

 

How veteran mode flash points were too cheesy at original level. Now back at seventy it flows a bit better.

 

The biggest issue will be in ops. Everything is tuned for level seventy toons or at original level for level fifty or fifty five geared toons. I don't mind story ops being a bit faster to run, but not at a cake walk level.

 

The level sync makes your relics and adrenals useless, but on the other hand you don't need them.

Master mode flashpoints set at 75.

I hope veteran and Nim operations are set at 75 as well.

So the ones that do have a challenge you still have all your tools.

 

I would love to have perfectly stat balanced toons at the target level for each flashpoint, operation and uprising or planet. Where it feels like you are still that level. I would not mind going into story or vet KP in bis 156 stats I would find it interesting. Not going to happen too many variables.

 

So in the end we hope we get a balance between some challenge and no challenge.

 

Could they allow the relics to work? Don't know.

Would it work if we had a level scale debuff on us for a percentage of all our current stats instead of level sync? I think so but how hard would it be to implement this to make it work right? I am not a programmer so I don't know.

 

Would not mind it if it did work that way. I have 306 but Go into GoTM and have the stats near 248 or 258. Go into KP with 156 stats or 186 or 224 for any of the other operations.

[CarlGustaf]

That’s not entirely true. The stims still work in lowbie pvp on live. I’m not sure about the pts because pvp doesn’t pop when I’m on.

 

I think that's because you are boosted up and you have not a hard cap. But it doesn't change the fact, that I was talking about scaling down and when you are above the exact level you will get hard caped on every single planet. the only way to get more HP or Mastery etc. is when you have not out levelled the planet and are wearing better gear.

 

Example: a level 12 juggernaut on Korriban with full DvL gear will have around 6000 HP. But he will lose this the moment he reaches level 13 and will be scaled down to the maximum of 3k HP like everyone on this planet.

[TerraStomper]

I think that's because you are boosted up and you have not a hard cap. But it doesn't change the fact, that I was talking about scaling down and when you are above the exact level you will get hard caped on every single planet. the only way to get more HP or Mastery etc. is when you have not out levelled the planet and are wearing better gear.

 

Example: a level 12 juggernaut on Korriban with full DvL gear will have around 6000 HP. But he will lose this the moment he reaches level 13 and will be scaled down to the maximum of 3k HP like everyone on this planet.

 

This illustrates a problem with Level Synch. It doesn't scale over-leveled players. It nerfs them using preset caps, especially for stats involving endurance, mastery, and power. Leveling up should not incur a penalty. Gear, stims, and adrenals should not suddenly stop contributing.

 

To test Level Synch, I copied a level 70 alt over to the PTS that hadn't started Iokath yet. I started from chapter 8 of KoTET, story mode. Originally I was checking this to get an idea of how long it would take to level. The character has a mix of 244 to 258 gear but otherwise augmented with 228s through 240s. Chapters 8 and 9 were no problem. The character hit 71 in the first part of the Iokath story line and was immediately nerfed by Level Synch, dropping from 137K health to 116K. The stat pool also deepened, lowering alacrity, critical, and accuracy percentages. DPS went down. Misses occurred more frequently. One of the relics (Serendipitous Assault) no longer did anything. Iokath was suddenly quite a bit harder.

 

Level Synch doesn't account for mechanics when the 71+ character is in a walker. Progress becomes blocked during the mission Showdown on Iokath as the three sentinels cannot be taken out unless damage from the sentinels is perfectly avoided. I couldn't do it. In the best attempt, the character-in-walker was killed with only one sentinel dead and another a bit more than half dead. Instead of having 550K+ health, the character's health is left bounded by Level Synch -- 116K health and with no way to heal.

 

Level Synch is in severe need of attention.

Edited October 6, 2019 by TerraStomper

[ottffsse]

you are aware that with the dearth of tertiary stats in 6.0 crit and alacrity (even the clicky) relics are bis anyways if you want to squeeze out as much dps/hps as possible, and those work in scaled ops as well?

[TerraStomper]

you are aware that with the dearth of tertiary stats in 6.0 crit and alacrity (even the clicky) relics are bis anyways if you want to squeeze out as much dps/hps as possible, and those work in scaled ops as well?

 

So true. I already knew the Serendipitous Assault was doing to shutdown once 71 was hit. If only the Primeval Fatesealer could be clicked while stuck in the walker, there might have been a better chance of success.

[dipstik]

you are aware that with the dearth of tertiary stats in 6.0 crit and alacrity (even the clicky) relics are bis anyways if you want to squeeze out as much dps/hps as possible, and those work in scaled ops as well?

 

are you sure about that?

 

assuming a toy dps model of dps=(base+bonus)*(1+crit*surge)*(1+alacrity) gives the following dps

 

base 11,677 (no relic)

mas 12,618 (focused retribution)

crit 12,347 (devastating vengeance)

pow 12,617 (serendipitous assault)

 

 

this assumes only companion, class and base buffs. If we assume a surge bonus of 10%:

 

base 12017

mas 12999

crit 12747

pow 12985

 

if we assume 5% crit buff (passive/class) on top of 10% surge we get:

 

base 12389

mas 13397

crit 13148

pow 13386

 

so i dont think crit will be better than mastery or power except in cases where bioware makes them useless due to capping, which looks like will be everything except for 2 areas, 1 op and 1 fp...

 

 

the above assumes there base values:

 

mastery 10626.04429

power rating 9909

crit rating 3340.96

surge rating 3340.96

accuracy rating 1589

alacrity rating 1214

force/tech power 7008

 

average hit of 2359

Edited October 7, 2019 by dipstik

[ottffsse]

are you sure about that?

 

assuming a toy dps model of dps=(base+bonus)*(1+crit*surge)*(1+alacrity) gives the following dps

 

base 11,677 (no relic)

mas 12,618 (focused retribution)

crit 12,347 (devastating vengeance)

pow 12,617 (serendipitous assault)

 

 

this assumes only companion, class and base buffs. If we assume a surge bonus of 10%:

 

base 12017

mas 12999

crit 12747

pow 12985

 

if we assume 5% crit buff (passive/class) on top of 10% surge we get:

 

base 12389

mas 13397

crit 13148

pow 13386

 

so i dont think crit will be better than mastery or power except in cases where bioware makes them useless due to capping, which looks like will be everything except for 2 areas, 1 op and 1 fp...

 

 

the above assumes there base values:

 

mastery 10626.04429

power rating 9909

crit rating 3340.96

surge rating 3340.96

accuracy rating 1589

alacrity rating 1214

force/tech power 7008

 

average hit of 2359

 

how do you get so much power? in gearing 306 I end up with around 12000 mastery and 8200 power most of the time. I am not aware there are mods that give you more power than mastery - at most even split. good luck getting new augments by the way without them you are another 200-300 points short on tertiary stats.

now as for alacrity...being 1214, that is a tricky subject....the only time I would do it is on a class like marksman or deception or concealment....classes with no dot damage basically who cannot get to gcd 1.3.

On any dot class or class with channels at least 10% alacriity greatly helps in PvE. those dots tick faster, you are sacrificing too much consistent gain on dot damage by dropping alacrity bellow for the bit more crit.

Anyways, having parsed a lot in a mix of available 228 and 242 augments on average I perform better with crit+power relic than with mastery+power relic. With bis augments that might equalize again but I don't expect them to get rid of the downscaling to content in 3 weeks time, so I am gonna be a realist, expect to use old augments, make sure my alacrity is respectable and probably run the crit instead of the mastery relic. In downscaled content swap the power relic for alacrity clicky relic.

[dipstik]

how do you get so much power? in gearing 306 I end up with around 12000 mastery and 8200 power most of the time. I am not aware there are mods that give you more power than mastery - at most even split. good luck getting new augments by the way without them you are another 200-300 points short on tertiary stats.

now as for alacrity...being 1214, that is a tricky subject....the only time I would do it is on a class like marksman or deception or concealment....classes with no dot damage basically who cannot get to gcd 1.3.

On any dot class or class with channels at least 10% alacriity greatly helps in PvE. those dots tick faster, you are sacrificing too much consistent gain on dot damage by dropping alacrity bellow for the bit more crit.

Anyways, having parsed a lot in a mix of available 228 and 242 augments on average I perform better with crit+power relic than with mastery+power relic. With bis augments that might equalize again but I don't expect them to get rid of the downscaling to content in 3 weeks time, so I am gonna be a realist, expect to use old augments, make sure my alacrity is respectable and probably run the crit instead of the mastery relic. In downscaled content swap the power relic for alacrity clicky relic.

 

 

109(stim)+10*313(enhancements)+339(mods)*12+2*221(relic)+15*144(augment)=9909 power

mastery can range from 10560 to 12180 with augments

in terms of alacrity, the toy model does show an increase of 280 dps by going to a 1.3 s gcd, but many think that alacrity overperforms with regard to the model and would rather have more crit (this build will give you 1415 crit). if you do go with high alacrity instead of using like 1 or 2 mastery augment, you want to go with all tertiary augs and crit relic may be bis in this case. this equates to 1415 crit. how close we can get to these values with gearing quanta is an open problem.

 

here are results for high alacrity:

base mas crit pow

11960 12900 13131 12904

 

assuming these values:

mastery 10560

power rating 9909

crit rating 1415

accuracy rating 1589

alacrity rating 3206

force/tech power 7008

average hit 2546

Edited October 9, 2019 by dipstik