ranked /unranked

[JediMasterAlex]

buddy. I have gold. yes. me. I have it, without wintrading. anyone in SF queue right now would laugh their butts off at that fact, but there it is. I have gold. I'm also, you may have noticed, running around with furious weapon sets (2 of them!). the fact that you could get those words out of your mouth (metaphorically) that solo proves more than grp, is a complete and utter joke. and I am living proof of that.

 

we're done. spam your arguments all you like. there's no comeback for that. solo is yolo. it's not serious.

 

I don't know who you are in game. And if solos isn't serious, then there is no serious pvp in this game. Which, if you want to make that argument, fine. But don't pretend that group ranked is "top tier" pvp, when it's a dead game mode and has been irrelevant for literally years.

[TrixxieTriss]

I don't know who you are in game. And if solos isn't serious, then there is no serious pvp in this game. Which, if you want to make that argument, fine. But don't pretend that group ranked is "top tier" pvp, when it's a dead game mode and has been irrelevant for literally years.

 

I can see both sides of your argument. But I think what Fox is trying to say is group ranked should be top tier. The fact that no one plays it enough highlights some of the biggest problems in the game.

 

1. People don’t group up unless they want to premade stomp regs. Which means the ranked people who often defend this practice are hypocrites because they won’t group to play ranked.

 

2. There aren’t enough players left in the game. And the are a massive amount of reasons why. The scale goes from Bioware themselves to the our own communities attitudes over the years towards regs and other players in ranked.

 

3. People’s egos get in the way. Nobody likes to lose and everyone wants to look their best for bragging rights. But if they are put into a situation where they have to prove that in group ranked, then the majority will have their egos deflated because a few teams will end up dominating over everyone else. This happens because the very best players gravitate to each other just so they can be guaranteed to win (even when some don’t like people on their teams).

 

4. Cheating with hacks, exploits, queue dodging or win trading has caused its own problems and really invalidate much of ranked in the eyes of many. Group ranked is also the easiest to WinTrade in, so that tarnishes it even more than the solo queue.

 

5. Ranked in general has been neglected by Bioware. Their policies to try and get fresh blood into ranked have back fired because all it’s done is watered down the quality because there is no skill/gear gate to enter. They tried to lure people in with mats, which only killed off group more because that was the only reason many people were there.

 

6. Matchmaking is essentially broken.

 

7. Lastly, us players have been contributing to the down fall of ranked arena since it was first introduced. I won’t go on about it in this post because I’ve already made one in another thread explaining how.

 

At the end of the day, group ranked “should be” the highest tier of competitive pvp in this game. Sadly, not enough people play it, so the de facto tier becomes solo ranked, which isn’t always the best indicator or player skill and many don’t take it seriously. So it’s also becoming less about the best skilled people playing against each other

[KendraP]

there is no serious pvp in this game.

 

I mean, this is pretty much my argument.

 

1. People don’t group up unless they want to premade stomp regs. Which means the ranked people who often defend this practice are hypocrites because they won’t group to play ranked.

 

As a former regs premader (and probably the most notorious one at that, as I am by nature an organized person who ends up in leadership roles despite not really wanting them), for me it had nothing to do with wanting to totally stomp anything. My group of people wanted to win, sure. But several things:

 

We normally won by relying on the enemies hatred of myself and my healer, combined with the sheer stupidity of the average player and two manned mid against 6 people while my buddies were getting solo kills at the side nodes. Were the average player smart enough to not sit around tank or healer tunneling they could have taken out my friends, the conc sent, the focus jugg, the deception shadow, the gunnery commando, the sharpshooter gunslinger, or the tk sage. It's not my fault the average player is rather dull.

 

Part 2 is I could never get any kind of group synergy. My best dps also happened to be my only healer. I was left picking the best 2 dps (not counting myself as I was the only tank), so I might wind up with a tk sage and a vigi guardian because they were the only 2 dps on that happened to be able to actually do damage. Rather than deal with the headache of improper group comp and having to nurse fragile egos, I decided to just go to a format where i could run with what I had.

 

Your points 2 and 6 are deeply related: were there enough players queueing, matchmaking wouldnt be as big a problem. Whys it placing a completely bad player with the best one? Because that forms a semblance of an average. The other option is to stack one team and have lopsided matches, or not have a queue pop at all.

Edited July 29, 2019 by KendraP

[TrixxieTriss]

I mean, this is pretty much my argument.

 

As a former regs premader (and probably the most notorious one at that, as I am by nature an organized person who ends up in leadership roles despite not really wanting them), for me it had nothing to do with wanting to totally stomp anything. My group of people wanted to win, sure. But several things:

 

We normally won by relying on the enemies hatred of myself and my healer, combined with the sheer stupidity of the average player and two manned mid against 6 people while my buddies were getting solo kills at the side nodes. Were the average player smart enough to not sit around tank or healer tunneling they could have taken out my friends, the conc sent, the focus jugg, the deception shadow, the gunnery commando, the sharpshooter gunslinger, or the tk sage. It's not my fault the average player is rather dull.

 

Part 2 is I could never get any kind of group synergy. My best dps also happened to be my only healer. I was left picking the best 2 dps (not counting myself as I was the only tank), so I might wind up with a tk sage and a vigi guardian because they were the only 2 dps on that happened to be able to actually do damage. Rather than deal with the headache of improper group comp and having to nurse fragile egos, I decided to just go to a format where i could run with what I had.

 

Your points 2 and 6 are deeply related: were there enough players queueing, matchmaking wouldnt be as big a problem. Whys it placing a completely bad player with the best one? Because that forms a semblance of an average. The other option is to stack one team and have lopsided matches, or not have a queue pop at all.

 

Reg Players making premades in regs was not the point I was trying to make, It was ranked premades who defend stomping reg pugs, but won’t go play group ranked. That’s hypocritical as far as I’m concerned. They would prefer to play solo ranked or premade in regs than play group ranked.

 

I agree, Match making would work better with more people, but the way it currently averages could be done better and that’s what I means by broken.

I’ve posted extensively on how they could fix or adjust it, so I won’t right another essay on it here.

[foxmob]

I don't know who you are in game.

krack-er-jack....

 

also known as nykani's daddy. Hiya little niky!!!! be home for din-din!

 

And if solos isn't serious, then there is no serious pvp in this game.

correct-ish.

 

But don't pretend that group ranked is "top tier" pvp, when it's a dead game mode and has been irrelevant for literally years.

if you're really so delusional that you can't see the gameplay in granked being exponentially higher than that in solo queue, then I genuinely don't know what to say to you on any intellectual level. I can only assume that you're living in some sort of self-imposed ignorance.

 

That doesn't mean I hate solos. I want solo queue. I like the idea of solo queue. but where the F were you when BW put arenas together? there was outcry for a solo queue made by mediocre players. the rewards were the same as grp, but solo was much easier to gain elo whereas grp separated the wheat from the chaffe in a matter of ~ 1 week. so players dodged the cream of the crop and jumped into solos. I'm not fool enough to delude myself into thinking it's anywhere close to the level of game play crushers or lukewarm or RL, etc. have engaged in for the past 4-5 years.

Edited July 29, 2019 by foxmob

[JediMasterAlex]

if you're really so delusional that you can't see the gameplay in granked being exponentially higher than that in solo queue, then I genuinely don't know what to say to you on any intellectual level. I can only assume that you're living in some sort of self-imposed ignorance.

 

Someone in this thread is delusional, and it's not me.

 

but where the F were you when BW put arenas together? there was outcry for a solo queue made by mediocre players. the rewards were the same as grp, but solo was much easier to gain elo whereas grp separated the wheat from the chaffe in a matter of ~ 1 week. so players dodged the cream of the crop and jumped into solos. I'm not fool enough to delude myself into thinking it's anywhere close to the level of game play crushers or lukewarm or RL, etc. have engaged in for the past 4-5 years.

 

What are you even talking about? There was "outcry by mediocre players?" When, and in what form, and how do you know it was only "mediocre" players? I was playing when arenas were created. You are just talking nonsense.

 

And to pretend that those teams you mentioned are all amazing pvpers...lol. All any granked team has done in the last few years is farm mat farmers until Bioware reduced the incentive for mat farmers to queue, so now it's dead. Apparently people still don't get it. I'll say it again, granked has been irrelevant for years. In other words, it's a joke. "Top tier" granked play no longer exists, if it ever did. If you can't accept that reality, that's on you.

 

Also, and not trying to **** on you, but you must know that getting gold on a merc is about 100 times easier than on any other class right? I'm not sure it says much about your skill level, or solo ranked in general, other than you're better than a lot of the mercs that queue (and for those not aware, there are a lot of bad mercs that queue solo ranked).

Edited July 29, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[Visorknight]

For unranked wz, pre-made groups should not be allowed to queue. Making it such that we can only queue solo in unranked may fixed many unbalanced matches and reduce the negativity of players. With premade teams on discords, we will see matches that are incredibly outmatched with scores like 6 0 in huttball are common. Also, new players do queue unranked to learn their classes, matching them against coordinated premade groups will be unfair to them as well. In the long run, this will only destroy pvp.

[KendraP]

For unranked wz, pre-made groups should not be allowed to queue. Making it such that we can only queue solo in unranked may fixed many unbalanced matches and reduce the negativity of players. With premade teams on discords, we will see matches that are incredibly outmatched with scores like 6 0 in huttball are common. Also, new players do queue unranked to learn their classes, matching them against coordinated premade groups will be unfair to them as well. In the long run, this will only destroy pvp.

 

I've had 6-0 huttball matches plenty of times where no premades were on either team... devils advocate, say I have 3 dps playing that like to pvp. What are they supposed to do exactly? Also, as trixxie told me, that is also beside the point of the thread.

[Zurules]

it's a joke. "Top tier" granked play no longer exists.

 

I'm confused, when did you ever even play group ranked? and with who? Please stop trying to talk about aspects of the game you have never participated in. Stick to solo ranked.

[TrixxieTriss]

For unranked wz, pre-made groups should not be allowed to queue. Making it such that we can only queue solo in unranked may fixed many unbalanced matches and reduce the negativity of players. With premade teams on discords, we will see matches that are incredibly outmatched with scores like 6 0 in huttball are common. Also, new players do queue unranked to learn their classes, matching them against coordinated premade groups will be unfair to them as well. In the long run, this will only destroy pvp.

 

With such a small population and bad matchmaking and the death of lowbies and Mids for people to learn, I’ve had to change my stance on this and agree 100% with you.

 

In the past when we had the population, premades were not such as big a problem as they are now.

Edited July 30, 2019 by TrixxieTriss

[JediMasterAlex]

I'm confused, when did you ever even play group ranked? and with who? Please stop trying to talk about aspects of the game you have never participated in. Stick to solo ranked.

 

https://www.swtor.com/leaderboards

 

Look at solo ranked. Then look at group ranked. Sort by wins. Compare. And most of the group ranked wins were from the first 2 weeks of the season.

 

It's not exactly rocket science. Group ranked is a dead, and therefore irrelevant, game mode.

[Zurules]

https://www.swtor.com/leaderboards

 

Look at solo ranked. Then look at group ranked. Sort by wins. Compare. And most of the group ranked wins were from the first 2 weeks of the season.

 

It's not exactly rocket science. Group ranked is a dead, and therefore irrelevant, game mode.

 

I guess when i ask when YOU played group ranked and WITH WHO, then we are actually talking about rocket science.

 

When i look up you up, the one stat i notice is that you have ZERO group ranked games PLAYED. So please continue sharing your opinion on group ranked based on your extensive group ranked experience (note* even people who queued up for the mats and don't actually pvp, actually have more experience than you).

[JediMasterAlex]

I guess when i ask when YOU played group ranked and WITH WHO, then we are actually talking about rocket science.

 

When i look up you up, the one stat i notice is that you have ZERO group ranked games PLAYED. So please continue sharing your opinion on group ranked based on your extensive group ranked experience (note* even people who queued up for the mats and don't actually pvp, actually have more experience than you).

 

Apparently you haven't looked very thoroughly. I have played group ranked. Not that it matters, because my experience in group ranked is irrelevant to the facts that I'm pointing out.

[foxmob]

When i look up you up, the one stat i notice is that you have ZERO group ranked games PLAYED. .

to be fair, I haven't granked since 8's either. but all you have to do is watch a stream of granked (assuming you cannot extrapolate from 8's) to see the higher caliber of games.

 

but honestly, anyone plays solos. my point above is that I play solos. how you can you have me, and players far worse than me, mucking around in solos and then compare it with a straight face to matches between a picked grp of trinity comp is beyond me. solo matches are garbage by comparison. that doesn't mean that the better solo players can't ranked. but the game play in solos is clearly inferior. I don't know how that's even up for debate.

 

the coordination and synergy is light years beyond solos.

 

in solo, here's the extent of 99% of the strategy:

 

player 1: "what's the kill order?"

 

player 2: "PT > jugg. cc healer/tank."

 

or

 

player 1: "what's the kill order?"

 

player 2: "go after <insert name>. he's global bait."

 

that sh*t literally never happens in grp. it happens in virtually every match of solos. solo is a hodge podge of specs and skills. it exists because it's easier than grp. players who wouldn't dare grp up can jump into solos b/c matchmaking actively tries to make the teams even. it's literally the opposite of team composition in grp. gawd. why do I even have to type this? it's falling on deaf ears of the only person on the board who doesn't seem to accept the fact.

 

edit: anyway. i like solos. just...ppl take it so seriously. it's not serious. the format is funzzies. take a pill try hards.

Edited July 30, 2019 by foxmob

[MandoMetal]

https://www.swtor.com/leaderboards

 

Look at solo ranked. Then look at group ranked. Sort by wins. Compare. And most of the group ranked wins were from the first 2 weeks of the season.

 

It's not exactly rocket science. Group ranked is a dead, and therefore irrelevant, game mode.

 

Bored as fk, thought I might chime in.

 

I can see your argument to some extent, but Zurules and others make some vaild points as well. My two cents on the matter:

 

 

Granked may be dead and not quite as good of a metric for skill now and in recent seasons due to all the "kickballed" type matches and their ambiguous nature, but when granked occurs at competitive set team levels it still takes some of the highest levels of skill in the game.

 

Team oriented play, even in the first several seasons back in the day, had its drawbacks (Like limitations when trying to find a consistent team of players that met your skill level, the discouragement of kickballed type matches in the first seasons that limited your access, the amount of time and effort it took to get going, and just when and how little granked happened to pop, etc.), but overall granked always has had more weight to it as a measure of skill, and still arguably does when its legit, regardless of how frequent it pops.

 

 

 

To have some dismiss solos now to some degree is understandable due to all the excessive randomness and bad players, but most seasons in solos (up until around mid Season 9 with the incentives for mat farmers, etc) it was a lot more competitive and stable on most servers. Queues were regulated by vote kick and other means to keep it that way, and you could reliably climb via skill.

 

Solos can also provide opportunity for display of individual skill that granked arguably doesn't always offer, that many often don't mention. In granked you are often locked into metas, often both teams playing the most effective classes and specs in cookie-cutter styles that is just a fight of attrition somewhat similar to the last fight, composed somewhat similar to the other team.

 

While individual skill matters obviously, many times teammates making a mistake (improperly breaking a stun and getting globalled for example) will cost you the game, and it is often not something within your control or something you can work your way out of (in a trinity comp like that once its 3v4 its usually not possible to recover and your team typically /stucks it). All of this is high risk high skill competitive play where any mistake will cost your team, and proper cohesion will often secure a win, but I think its valid to argue that there isn't as much variability and potential for individual performance as solos due to how dependent you are on your teammates... and how any disparity in skill among teammates can cause issues.

 

 

 

In solos you take whatever hand the Universe and Eric Musco deals you, and you just have to make the best of it. There isn't always a reliable team to back you up (in recent seasons almost never), and you will be put in an unending variety of situations that will at the very least sometimes not go well for you. While this is one of the great drawbacks of solos, it can also be a great benefit in some ways. (One reason people don't like Solos is because it's Swtors simulator of life)

 

If you are one of those players who is able to thrive in those situations you can sometimes carry games to an extreme degree, often 1v1, sometimes 1v2, and maybe the occasional 1v3 if your class and the situation allows for it. In granked you almost never seemingly get the opportunity to win such matches or to such a degree for a variety of reasons (at least in my experience). In solos you can get the opportunity to shine as an individual quite frequently (Especially in all DPS matches [depends on class and spec to some degree] one of the most fun modes IMO that granked doesn't offer... a mode arguably somewhat more balanced if DPS for potential elo climbing via skill. This is in part due to it being hard as a DPS to carry bad support classes or to go against good ones, and how frequently one sided support class games are in solos).

 

 

 

All that crap being said, TLDR?... like many I have always seen the two ranked modes as two halves of the coin that makes up a solid ranked player, with the coin slightly more weighted towards granked... and it still seems to be the case.

[JediMasterAlex]

but honestly, anyone plays solos. my point above is that I play solos. how you can you have me, and players far worse than me, mucking around in solos and then compare it with a straight face to matches between a picked grp of trinity comp is beyond me. solo matches are garbage by comparison. that doesn't mean that the better solo players can't ranked. but the game play in solos is clearly inferior. I don't know how that's even up for debate.

 

You misunderstand my point. Of course a granked match between two of the top granked teams is going to be played at a higher level than a random solos match. But how frequently are those matches between top rated teams happening? Well, currently, they are literally not happening at all. Over the last two full seasons, they have barely ever happened. And even before that, they were extremely rare, because the top teams just queue dodged each other and farmed mat farmers. The point is that this mythical "top tier" granked play is just that, mythical.

 

And again, if you think solo ranked isn't serious, then there is, by definition, no serious pvp in this game. It's not a point that helps your argument in any way. Playing for "funzzies" (solo ranked) is obviously superior to not playing at all (group ranked).

 

To have some dismiss solos now to some degree is understandable due to all the excessive randomness and bad players, but most seasons in solos (up until around mid Season 9 with the incentives for mat farmers, etc) it was a lot more competitive and stable on most servers. Queues were regulated by vote kick and other means to keep it that way, and you could reliably climb via skill.

 

I still disagree with your overall takeaway, but at least your post is well-thought out. This is the only part that's wrong. The reason it's harder to climb now is because the matchmaking actually functions properly. Prior to season 10, the matchmaking frequently stacked teams in high rated characters' favor because of the way it sorted teams. There are other posts around that describe how it worked in more detail. And because of no cross faction, it was incredibly easy to manipulate the queue, even as a dps, to control who you faced and when. Those are the reasons elos got pushed up so high. The rich just kept getting richer the higher ranked they got. In other words, skill was not the reason people could reliably climb.

 

Now, the system actually makes the most balanced matches that it can. Can that be frustrating for high rated players when bad players are queueing? Yes, it certainly can be. After the first few weeks of the season, it's very difficult to climb much above 1500-1600, and exceedingly few have done so. But that's a sign that the matches are actually much more balanced than before, which is clearly a good thing.

 

The overall quality of the matches is virtually identical to past seasons, but with less people queueing overall. It's just that some of the people used to winning almost all their matches because of stacked teams are suddenly faced with evenly matched teams, so they lose a lot more, so they have an erroneous perception that the matches are of lower quality.

Edited July 30, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[foxmob]

And again, if you think solo ranked isn't serious, then there is, by definition, no serious pvp in this game. It's not a point that helps your argument in any way. Playing for "funzzies" (solo ranked) is obviously superior to not playing at all (group ranked)..

 

how can you take it seriously when it doesn't even role match properly? I like it because it's the best matchmaking the game has to offer. I like it because regs have been ruined by overpowered class abilities and a disinterested player base. it's still fun, aside from the handful of ppl who, laughably, expect everyone else on their team to be as good as, or on page with, themselves. that's just not how the queue is designed.

 

and no, there is no serious pvp in this incredibly casual game. there's little in the way of serious pve also. unless you consider rescaling 7-year old raids for new level caps "serious." I should think the asinine crystal quests they designed made that crystal clear. the only way to get the crystal despite complete and utter failure is via pvp. granted, losing 50 games takes a long time, but dying 50 times to VM queen nets you nothing but a repair bill. you still get that crystal doing it in pvp. yeah. I'm comfortable with there's no serious pvp in swtor.

 

the reason group ranked is such a wasteland is because there's no serious competition.

Edited July 30, 2019 by foxmob

[JediMasterAlex]

there is no serious pvp in this incredibly casual game. there's little in the way of serious pve also.

 

Again, that's a reasonable position to take, though I'm not sure what the criteria for "seriousness" is; is Overwatch serious? CS:GO? I mean, these are all games after all. It seems to me seriousness is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Regardless, it doesn't invalidate what I've been saying. My contention is that solo ranked is clearly the highest level of pvp in the game, because group ranked is dead. And even when it was alive, it's debatable due to farming mat farmers, etc. In theory, if there was actually a sizable population and high level teams competing against each other, I could understand giving a slight edge to group ranked.

 

I also never said solo ranked doesn't have flaws. I've talked about them a lot on these forums. Mismatched roles is certainly a problem that Bioware could, and should, easily fix.

Edited July 30, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[foxmob]

Again, that's a reasonable position to take, though I'm not sure what the criteria for "seriousness" is; is Overwatch serious? CS:GO? I mean, these are all games after all. It seems to me seriousness is in the eye of the beholder. .

 

it's not hotly contested. it's not high caliber players playing against high caliber players in high caliber games. it's dumbed down. it thrives at a casual level. there aren't even enough tanks and heals to play the game as designed, so the solo queue settles for trying to role match.

 

I'm not opposed to any of this. it's actually good for me and gives me an opportunity to play, but it's in no way a serious environment. every other match, I have to "listen" to [rhymes with mysteria] whine and complain about his bad teammates as he rages at them not to queue. meanwhile, he's running around on a dps pt or jugg.

 

I'm sorry, but hiding in spawn because you're going to get rekt the second you drop is not a properly functioning game. I understand that PTs and Juggs would do this. but it's a joke. you can't really take these matches seriously when that's what players have to do, can you? I can't.

 

lastly, grp ranked only requires a few weeks for a season. really. that's it. after a few weeks, maybe a month, the pecking order is set, and everyone knows who to dodge. solos can go on ad infinitum because it doesn't matter how good or bad you are. it's a lottery. you're going to walk into wins. the whole system of creating evenly balanced teams is deeply casual by nature. again, it works for me. and if they didn't do it, the queue would dry just the same way and for the same reason as grp ranked. but it's not serious. and that's why.

[MandoMetal]

You misunderstand my point. Of course a granked match between two of the top granked teams is going to be played at a higher level than a random solos match. But how frequently are those matches between top rated teams happening? Well, currently, they are literally not happening at all. Over the last two full seasons, they have barely ever happened. And even before that, they were extremely rare, because the top teams just queue dodged each other and farmed mat farmers. The point is that this mythical "top tier" granked play is just that, mythical.

 

And again, if you think solo ranked isn't serious, then there is, by definition, no serious pvp in this game. It's not a point that helps your argument in any way. Playing for "funzzies" (solo ranked) is obviously superior to not playing at all (group ranked).

 

 

 

I still disagree with your overall takeaway, but at least your post is well-thought out. This is the only part that's wrong. The reason it's harder to climb now is because the matchmaking actually functions properly. Prior to season 10, the matchmaking frequently stacked teams in high rated characters' favor because of the way it sorted teams. There are other posts around that describe how it worked in more detail. And because of no cross faction, it was incredibly easy to manipulate the queue, even as a dps, to control who you faced and when. Those are the reasons elos got pushed up so high. The rich just kept getting richer the higher ranked they got. In other words, skill was not the reason people could reliably climb.

 

Now, the system actually makes the most balanced matches that it can. Can that be frustrating for high rated players when bad players are queueing? Yes, it certainly can be. After the first few weeks of the season, it's very difficult to climb much above 1500-1600, and exceedingly few have done so. But that's a sign that the matches are actually much more balanced than before, which is clearly a good thing.

 

The overall quality of the matches is virtually identical to past seasons, but with less people queueing overall. It's just that some of the people used to winning almost all their matches because of stacked teams are suddenly faced with evenly matched teams, so they lose a lot more, so they have an erroneous perception that the matches are of lower quality.

 

I have played pretty much every season in solos, although to greatly varying amounts depending on the season. I have played on multiple servers since S1, and on nearly all servers (besides EU ones) at some point to some degree.

 

I am intimately familiar with how matchmaking functioned in previous seasons in solos, how it functions now, and the overall approximate quality of the solo queue throughout time. I have posted before about the benefits and drawbacks of each queue system.

 

 

 

 

I don't think the only reason its harder to climb now is because it functions properly. There is a small amount of truth to that, but it's not absolute.

 

With the addition of mats in S9 to S10, the average skill level in the solo queue dropped to levels never seen in any other season.

 

When everyone in the queue knows what they are doing, the teams with the most "skill", if you will, tend to win in the long run.

 

When you throw in wildcards in the queue so bad at the game that they contribute literally nothing, don't even want to be there, and don't even technically count as a teammate, they become the dominant factor of what causes a win or loss due to the sheer amount of skill they aren't bringing to the table.

 

These players that were uncarriable certainly were there in previous seasons, but it wasn't ever even remotely to the degree as has been seen in the past couple seasons.

 

 

 

 

The queue changes and Dev response in Season 10 addressed many ranked problems such as: the ease of map hacking, factional imbalance and syncing, server transferable elo, backfilling, botting, etc., and it did change how the queue formed teams. This was all mostly positive.

 

The mats that incentivized farmers which are basically throws most of the time and the cross-role backfilling were some of the more negative changes from a queue stability/reliability standpoint.

 

 

 

 

In certain situations the previous system did make the rich richer, but even now the queue can do the same thing at certain times. It's just not quite to the degree as the previous system.

 

In some situations in the previous system for example the second highest DPS in the queue would almost always get paired with the worst tank and healer in queue (Which at times might not be a bad thing, but at other times it was almost always an auto loss), while the first highest DPS would get the highest rated tank and healer on average. Just noting this phenomenon alone and avoiding being second highest in queue in such situations decreased the probability you would be faced with unwinnable games. If you played considering this factor alone over time you often had a much smoother climbing rate to Top3 or T1, less RNG to some extent. Among some of the upper players it was known as the curse of the second highest or "the rule of number 2 in queue", etc.

 

 

 

 

Those that flocked to small faction servers of either imp or pub often did have an advantage vs the larger faction, and that can be seen as a factor in some peoples successes across various seasons... but it can't usually be stated as the only factor.

 

Because so many players were doing it, everyone that was a better player and wanted to compete in that factional bracket often flocked there as well, which often made for highly competitive inter-factional games on the small isolated factional oriented servers. Those who had Top3s on these servers would have likely had at or near Top3s elsewhere to some degree, just obviously not absolutely... and some certainly did abuse this advantage. It certainly sucked if you were trying to climb on that larger faction with a more disparate skill pool and vs the smaller faction of all good players.

[JediMasterAlex]

it's not hotly contested. it's not high caliber players playing against high caliber players in high caliber games.

 

Sometimes it is. Usually there are at least a couple of bad players thrown in the mix, but on the occasions where there are multiple games going at once, sometimes the high rated match is pretty high in quality.

 

there aren't even enough tanks and heals to play the game as designed, so the solo queue settles for trying to role match.

 

That's a feature, not a bug. All dps games, heal games, and tank games are frequently more fun as well, in my opinion.

 

I'm sorry, but hiding in spawn because you're going to get rekt the second you drop is not a properly functioning game. I understand that PTs and Juggs would do this. but it's a joke. you can't really take these matches seriously when that's what players have to do, can you? I can't.

 

Dps pts are normally quite rare in solo ranked, though there does seem to be more all of the sudden in the last few weeks. Frankly, that's just a balance issue. That's not really a problem with solo ranked. If you look at Overwatch as an example, there are always certain heroes that almost never get played at the higher ranks.

 

lastly, grp ranked only requires a few weeks for a season. really. that's it. after a few weeks, maybe a month, the pecking order is set, and everyone knows who to dodge.

 

Exactly, that's how it used to work before it was totally dead, which is partly why I say that group ranked is a joke.

 

solos can go on ad infinitum because it doesn't matter how good or bad you are. it's a lottery. you're going to walk into wins. the whole system of creating evenly balanced teams is deeply casual by nature. again, it works for me. and if they didn't do it, the queue would dry just the same way and for the same reason as grp ranked. but it's not serious. and that's why.

 

This last part doesn't speak to a lack of seriousness to me. It's just the nature of any kind of solo queue. You would have to draw the same "it's not serious" conclusion about every game's solo queue by your logic. You're free to do that if you want, but you shouldn't pretend that you're objectively right. It's just your opinion. If other people take it seriously, that's up to them.

Edited July 30, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[JediMasterAlex]

When you throw in wildcards in the queue so bad at the game that they contribute literally nothing, don't even want to be there, and don't even technically count as a teammate, they become the dominant factor of what causes a win or loss due to the sheer amount of skill they aren't bringing to the table.

 

That's definitely true, but there's nothing Bioware can do about that, other than maybe adding more prerequisites before letting people play ranked. But that would be counterproductive if we want more people playing overall.

 

The rest of your post seems to support my assertion about it being easier to climb due to reasons other than skill. The new system seems to me to be a massive improvement, the bad players notwithstanding. Thank you for the additional explanations too. I didn't play seasons 2-9 (because I wasn't playing the game at all), so I don't actually have first hand knowledge of a lot of the stuff that went on.

Edited July 30, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[foxmob]

That's a feature, not a bug. All dps games, heal games, and tank games are frequently more fun as well, in my opinion.

 

it's a compromise. as is the solo queue in its entirety...

 

the reason a PT or jugg has to hang back is because the game isn't balanced around all dps games. a PT dps isn't really desireable in high end trinity (outside of double carbs), but in solo where they aren't going against a finely tuned opponent squad, that doesn't much matter. however, w/o a dedicated healer and tank, said PT is a significant liability. yes. it's a balance problem. it's a balance problem created by the "feature" of the queue though.

 

the compromise is out of necessity else there'd be no pops. I get that. but...it's a compromise.

 

it's a compromise because there aren't enough "hardcore" or "serious" ranked players willing to deal with the difficulty of granked. you can't climb if the only opponents in the queue are as talented as you are. if you're slightly better, your grp will climb, but if not, then you sink like a rock and your rating would look like you only auto attack all match -- so you stop queuing. hence the dead grp queue. but that's what it is to be serious. maximize your team and the caliber of the game play.

 

to put it another way, granked is the big leagues. solo queue is triple-A. SWTOR is a casual game and really always was, but even in SWTOR, that's true. outside of SWTOR, it also holds. solo queues in what is a team sport will always be the triple-A division below the premade/group queue. the game play will always be compromised by the randomness of the team composition, even when the populations are much better than SWTOR where the teammates are of much closer skill levels.

 

as for the "opinion" stuff. uh. yeah. I don't have to preface everything I think with "I think." you can present all the empirical evidence in the world; it's still just "I think", e.g., "in my opinion." if you want to lebowski me with "that's like...your opinion, man." go right ahead. you can do that to anything anyone's ever posted, tbh.

[JediMasterAlex]

it's a compromise because there aren't enough "hardcore" or "serious" ranked players willing to deal with the difficulty of granked.

 

Granked isn't more difficult. Playing with good teammates in a controlled, coordinated environment is far easier than the variability of solo ranked. The only difficult part of granked is actually forming a team with similarly skilled people, that can play on a similar schedule. That's just a logistical problem. And then of course there's the eternal "difficulty" of playing other teams, which you can't do because it's dead.

 

Your ideas about pvp are so bizarre, and you still seem hung up on the idea that if you choose your teammates, it's a superior game mode and is somehow more serious. That isn't true, it's just in your head.

 

to put it another way, granked is the big leagues. solo queue is triple-A.

 

Pure nonsense, and already been addressed. At this point, you must just be trolling me. There is no progression from solo ranked to group ranked.

 

SWTOR is a casual game and really always was, but even in SWTOR, that's true. outside of SWTOR, it also holds. solo queues in what is a team sport will always be the triple-A division below the premade/group queue. the game play will always be compromised by the randomness of the team composition, even when the populations are much better than SWTOR where the teammates are of much closer skill levels.

 

What about games like Overwatch and CS:GO where there's just one queue? Solo queuers and group queuers are all thrown together. Your views on solo vs group queues are peculiarly skewed and without any basis. Randomness of team composition is not inherently bad, but you keep saying it like it is.

 

as for the "opinion" stuff. uh. yeah. I don't have to preface everything I think with "I think." you can present all the empirical evidence in the world; it's still just "I think", e.g., "in my opinion." if you want to lebowski me with "that's like...your opinion, man." go right ahead. you can do that to anything anyone's ever posted, tbh.

 

This part is more nonsense. Not everything we say is our opinion. For example, 2+2=4, we landed on the moon, climate change is real and human activity is contributing to it. These are facts. Another example, when I say that solo ranked is superior to group ranked because group ranked is dead, that's a fact, not my opinion. The conclusion directly follows from the premises. But when you say "solo ranked isn't serious pvp," that's just your opinion, because everyone can define "seriousness" differently, and even if we all had the same definition, we could evaluate the factors differently. Can you really not see the difference?

[MandoMetal]

That's definitely true, but there's nothing Bioware can do about that, other than maybe adding more prerequisites before letting people play ranked. But that would be counterproductive if we want more people playing overall.

 

The rest of your post seems to support my assertion about it being easier to climb due to reasons other than skill. The new system seems to me to be a massive improvement, the bad players notwithstanding. Thank you for the additional explanations too. I didn't play seasons 2-9 (because I wasn't playing the game at all), so I don't actually have first hand knowledge of a lot of the stuff that went on.

 

Yes, the rich get richer type problems with the previous system were always there, but they were only very obvious and a large issue when there was extreme skill disparity in the queue, which tended to only happen frequently and to an intolerable degree after they added mats in ~S9 IMO.

 

But with this new system you can get "rich get richer" type situations as well.

 

It seems like these problems would probably occur in any system they would implement to some degree if there is as much skill disparity and low population of high level players as there is now.

 

Either system can work, this one may work somewhat better. The previous system in most situations wasn't bad enough to absolutely carry you, you had to know what you were doing. Those that got Top3s/T1s before can and often do get Top3s/T1s in this system. And most of those players will get Top3s/T1s in any system they implement. Thats partly what I was trying to reveal or aim at I suppose