Vowrawn For "Canon" Sith Emperor!

[Kiesu]

The RP community has been frequently misunderstood

 

Nice lecture. And completely bides my point.

When I say "we shouldn't modify X story because RP", I mean, we shouldn't immediately go hastily kill off X or Y because RPrs are having hair loss over it. Let them write what they want on their own time, as usual. No matter who ends up Emperor.

 

You guys are RPers so RP, make up stuff for in-between stages. Or RP something that doesn't involve the need to know current emperor/empress. I'm sure nobody care about the Emperor on some backwater planet, or simply refer to them as "Emperor" with no names, title applies to women just as well. The current divided rule is unlikely to change before 6.0, you're gonna have to make up stuff if you want to keep RPing this way till then anyway, so no need to make such a big deal out of it. There is always unknown factors in worlds that are not of your design, and you fill those holes with your imagination. They might be explained later in a way that you didn't RP it out, but such is the way of series that have not met their ends and are ever-living.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Kiesu

[Ylliarus]

Nice lecture. And completely bides my point.

When I say "we shouldn't modify X story because RP", I mean, we shouldn't immediately go hastily kill off X or Y because RPrs are having hair loss over it. Let them write what they want on their own time, as usual. No matter who ends up Emperor.

 

You guys are RPers so RP, make up stuff for in-between stages. Or RP something that doesn't involve the need to know current emperor/empress. I'm sure nobody care about the Emperor on some backwater planet, or simply refer to them as "Emperor" with no names, title applies to women just as well. The current divided rule is unlikely to change before 6.0, you're gonna have to make up stuff if you want to keep RPing this way till then anyway, so no need to make such a big deal out of it. There is always unknown factors in worlds that are not of your design, and you fill those holes with your imagination. They might be explained later in a way that you didn't RP it out, but such is the way of series that have not met their ends and are ever-living.

 

If my post came across as a lecture then I apologise, as that was not my intent. The RP community I am part of, let's call it the "mainstream" RP community for ease's sake, simply is frequently misunderstood and overlooked and we really want our voices to be heard too. We still didn't get any of the promised solutions from the devs in light of the server merges, so we really try to find ways to let our voices be heard as well.

 

I invite you then to coordinate the formation of a player headcanon between 1200 players and members of the DMRP community where majority of the players are loregeeks who abide by the lore like adhering to a sacred text and each one believes they're holding the truth. What you're proposing simply won't work for our RP, because you have people roleplaying Lords of the Sith, Jedi Masters, Darths, officers of Imperial Intelligence, members of Sith noble houses etc etc. Each guild, and there are at least 30 of those for sure, have their own story arc that involves either the Republic or Empire. They either host Acolyte trials on Korriban, play out political intrigues on Dromund Kaas, establish secret Jedi enclaves within the Republic or play a part of the Republic or Imperial military. They have ongoing storylines that can't suddenly be overturned or be moved to a backwater planet.

 

The solution the mainstream RP community has in place now is to simply not move beyond the post-Iokath setting, remaining post-KotET Chapter 9 but pre-Iokath. For now that solution works, but it's a temporary one. Eventually the story arcs need to move forward in time, so we're hoping we'll get a "canon" soon.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Ylliarus

[Andryah]

I think that some players are simply too invested in wanting to have control over a story and it's choices/outcomes.. sometimes down to the minute details.

 

Personally.. I understand the SW lore, canon or not, is NOT owned and controlled by me. I also understand that the stories and choices presented to us as players is the fruit of creativity from the story arc authors inside the studio.. and I generally always respect the author of any creative work. It does not mean I agree with every creative expression, only that I respect that they put the time and effort into creating a unique story or theme and I'm simply not going to try to tromp on it, or demand it be different. In my view, there is simply too much disregard or disrespect of creative output in entertainment products these days in my view, especially with respect to anything Star Wars.

 

I treat a game like I do movies and books... I consume them and enjoy them as presented by the artist(s). You know what I do if I don't like a theme or outcome? I simply bypass it and move on. There is plenty to like and enjoy without constantly getting wrapped around the axle of feeling like "the studio is wrong and I can do it better" at a tactical level such as... changing a story arc and result just to suit me.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Andryah

[Ylliarus]

I think that some players are simply too invested in wanting to have control over a story and it's choices/outcomes.. sometimes down to the minute details.

 

Personally.. I understand the SW lore, canon or not, is NOT owned and controlled by me. I also understand that the stories and choices presented to us as players is the fruit of creativity from the story arc authors inside the studio.. and I generally always respect the author of any creative work. It does not mean I agree with every creative expression, only that I respect that they put the time and effort into creating a unique story or theme and I'm simply not going to try to tromp on it, or demand it be different. In my view, there is simply too much disregard or disrespect of creative output in entertainment products these days in my view, especially with respect to anything Star Wars.

 

I treat a game like I do movies and books... I consume them and enjoy them as presented by the artist(s). You know what I do if I don't like a theme or outcome? I simply bypass it and move on. There is plenty to like and enjoy without constantly getting wrapped around the axle of feeling like "the studio is wrong and I can do it better" at a tactical level such as... changing a story arc and result just to suit me.

 

This is not about liking or disliking, this is about the RP community and their adherence to the lore of a specific setting in their stories. But it is also about the disruptive divergence in storytelling that the Iokath choice has caused. This is not about anyone wanting to have control over anything, those are your words not mine. It is about solving a problematic solution by asking for uniformity in the lore and story of the game.

 

And why wouldn't players be allowed to exert influence over the story they play? They're the ones who will be playing it after all and those are the people who have to like it. If players don't like the course of a story they have all the right in the world to try to exert influence on the writers to change something. The writers don't create the stories for themselves, they create the story for us. Players trying to voice their opinions and thoughts so as to change the course of a story is much better than simply leaving the game or story behind. People don't voice their thoughts because they want control over a story, but they do it because they love the story so much that they want to see it thrive.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Ylliarus

[IoNonSoEVero]

If it were a group of let's say, 20 to 30 people, sure. But the RP community numbers in the thousands. The Darth Malgus RP Enjin forums have around 1200 members currently and that's only those who found the site and registered to it. There are so many more RP guilds that don't make use of the Enjin forums and that's the Darth Malgus server alone. You have the entire Star Forge RP Enjin forums and various smaller hubs. It's not a simple group, it's a solid chunk of the current playerbase who is looking for uniformity in the story and lore. Perhaps to you it seems easy that "you decide what the lore is", but that's not how it works with RP. We rely heavily on the existing and established lore and setting to create our stories. Yes, our stories are not tied to the main SWTOR's narratives, but they happen within the setting and lore those stories create. Our RP is affected by the fact whether Acina or Vowrawn is ruler, because who do we name as the Empire's leader? Who do all Sith and Imperials ultimately answer to? Those questions are very important for the RP community and you can't write us off as a small group of people.

 

Sorry, but I stand by what I said. You're asking the devs to kill off a character for RP outside the game, and I don't think that ever should be done, regardless of how large the outside group is. You *do* always have the option in your RP to set whatever rules and canon you wish, using the established story as a guide (and again, deciding things like who is the Outlander and if Senya and Arcann are alive). Players who prefer Acina don't have the option to bring her back once she's killed off.

 

And technically if you were playing your RP with the game as a guide, and you were playing solid Imperials, they would have sided with Acina on Iokath and there would be no possibility she'd be dead or that Vowrawn would have taken over anyway. That only happens in the stories of people who side with the wrong side, er, I mean, the Republic.

 

I do think you're going to get what you want anyway, because as I said, the story team probably cannot continue to support the four different possible leaders that exist now, and because the assassination of the leader would be a valid way to draw the Commander into a faction war. But I think that should only happen in the context of the game's story, not to accommodate anything outside the game.

Edited November 5, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[BlastBoomArt]

This is not about liking or disliking, this is about the RP community and their adherence to the lore of a specific setting in their stories. But it is also about the disruptive divergence in storytelling that the Iokath choice has caused. This is not about anyone wanting to have control over anything, those are your words not mine. It is about solving a problematic solution by asking for uniformity in the lore and story of the game.

 

And why wouldn't players be allowed to exert influence over the story they play? They're the ones who will be playing it after all and those are the people who have to like it. If players don't like the course of a story they have all the right in the world to try to exert influence on the writers to change something. The writers don't create the stories for themselves, they create the story for us. Players trying to voice their opinions and thoughts so as to change the course of a story is much better than simply leaving the game or story behind. People don't voice their thoughts because they want control over a story, but they do it because they love the story so much that they want to see it thrive.

 

As an artist, this kind of view point is always worrisome to me. You are not entitled to someone else's creative property. The people making this game are making it to fulfil their vision, not yours. Certainly they hope to entertain as many people as realisticly possible while creating something meaningful to themselves, but their end goal isn't to make you, specifically, happy. By all means, voice your thoughts and criticisms, but don't talk as though you are entitled to influence other's work.

 

Also, there's a bit of a hole in your arguement. How have any of your fellow rp-ers been able progress past KOTFE/KOTET at all with all of the half-deaths sprinkled throughout the expansions? For many, some characters are dead and for others, they are not. I think it's a little unfair to get rid of those characters entirely just because some people got a little too trigger-happy.

 

As for my own thoughts on the game's story: Acina is a bad-***** Empress and I sincerely hope she ends up sticking around for the long-haul.

-

[Lunafox]

I say no. Why? He betrayed the ideals of the Sith Empire by bending a knee to the Zakuul throne. Acina stood tall in taking the reins of the empire and fought to rebuild it. She was the first to come to the Alliance to help and in turn helped the Empire. What did Vowrawn do? Nothing. He stayed hidden and only comes out of hiding to become Emperor when Acina is killed? Yeah, you got it right when you stated "He's a politician." A warrior he is not.

 

Politics Vowrawn is used to is more of the same that nearly destroyed the Empire. And people want to put that in power? Dark Council member who participated in destroying other members, back room dealings, back stabbing, and general chaos is what he offers. The exact same thing Vitiate lorded over. Empress Acina is the polar opposite of what Vowrawn is. She projects power and confidence while Vowrawn represents cowardliness, personal advancement, and self-service instead of leadership. Vitiate allowed all of what happened because those on the Dark Council lost their way with the in fighting, save Darth Marr. Acina is needed at this very moment as the leader of the new Sith Empire, Not Vowrawn.

 

I disagree. Not every Sith is an overly-muscular hulk!smash type. In fact, I think the ones that aren't, or are a combination of smarts and brawn are far more successful. This includes knowing when to back off and plot from the shadows. People seem quick to discount Vowrawn's prowess, but he is the Lord of the Logistics and Production Sphere and Acina wouldn't be rebuilding anything if it wasn't for him getting his hands on what to rebuild with. You always get more with honey than vinegar--if he could convince Zakuul that they'll play along with their demands and get Zakuul to underestimate him (like so many do) they'd have an easier time dealing with the Gree and whoever else Vowrawn has ties with. Vowrawn didn't betray Sith ideals if anything he is the embodiment of them. As much as I love Marr, what good did standing up to Vitiate do him? None. He got dead for his trouble. Vowrawn has stayed alive to play the game for decades and that's no small feat. So many 'Dark Council' members last maybe weeks or months, he has lasted DECADES. Vipers stay in the shadows, insects move into the light to be crushed.

 

I respect that Vowrawn plotted to take Baras down. Baras thought he could make a brazen power play and call the shots over everyone else. Wrong. Vowrawn took him out and rightly so. Hmm, who is more Sith-like...the taker out, or the taken out? Vowrawn is the consummate game player and is many moves ahead of his opponents and Baras was no slouch. I guess I'm more impressed by intelligence and cunning than musclebound posturing and force.

 

Acina is just another insect stepping into the light, eager to be called 'Empress' and feeding off the title rather than realizing there is strength and intelligence in remaining wily and beyond reach. How is it she's suddenly powerful? Oh yeah, the bottom of the barrel is being scra.ped.

 

Vowrawn is no coward. He had the guts to set up shop in the middle of Republic territory on Corellia. He is far from self-service when what he's doing funds the empire and helps the rebuild of it. Acina can make a show of projecting power, but that's all she's doing is 'projecting'. I highly doubt she has built up so many contacts and resources over the years as Vowrawn has. She's a fledgling Sith despite her ego.

 

Vowrawn is also extremely knowledgeable in rituals which comes in pretty handy. I think Vowrawn is the very embodiment of what a true Sith should be. Anyone can hulk!smash stuff, but where does that get them in the long run? Dead.

 

All that aside, the game is going to do whatever it wants. I can respect the RPers wanting a bit of consistency in their world, they should be able to put a name to their Emperor, but for simplicities' sake, I'd say just refer to the 'Emperor' as the 'Emperor'. Feminine honorifics don't tend to be a thing in Star Wars so much, women are Lords and Darths too, there is no separation there. Being vague and ambiguous can be a solution too at least for the interim.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Lunafox

[Lunafox]

......while creating something meaningful to themselves, but their end goal isn't to make you, specifically, happy. By all means, voice your thoughts and criticisms, but don't talk as though you are entitled to influence other's work.

 

 

 

You know, I have to disagree with this as well. Bioware isn't being paid to create their personal grand vision. They're being paid to create a game that appeals to a mass of Star Wars fans, so if they intend to continue getting paid, they have to make the players happy and that means listening to what they want.

 

The precedent has already been set. People can ask for things and if their request is popular enough they'll likely get it, because the goal is to make the player happy. Some of their choices have been misguided and miscalculated over the years, but the end goal is to create something that will keep people subbing.

 

A game is a different animal from most artworks, and even then commissions are to keep the patron happy foremost above the creator. Ideally, both are happy, but the patron is the one with the money and it's always about the money in business.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Lunafox

[Kiesu]

I invite you then to coordinate the formation of a player headcanon between 1200 players and members of the DMRP community where majority of the players are loregeeks who abide by the lore like adhering to a sacred text and each one believes they're holding the truth.

It is not the Devs job to moderate and plan your RP guild. It is your RP guilds job to moderate your RP guild.

 

For someone who claims to RP a lot you sure don't seem to know anything involving DMs / RP event's organizer's job. Or maybe your community doesn't have DMs/organizers and you are having to constantly battle over the setting of your RP, in which case I can understand and sympathize with your acclaimed chaos... And feel very happy for not being a part of it, lol.

 

That is how most RPs with bioware type games go. There is a set timeline/choice preset for people to draw reference from for the session, provided by DM/organizer.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Kiesu

[BlastBoomArt]

You know, I have to disagree with this as well. Bioware isn't being paid to create their personal grand vision. They're being paid to create a game that appeals to a mass of Star Wars fans, so if they intend to continue getting paid, they have to make the players happy and that means listening to what they want.

 

The precedent has already been set. People can ask for things and if their request is popular enough they'll likely get it, because the goal is to make the player happy. Some of their choices have been misguided and miscalculated over the years, but the end goal is to create something that will keep people subbing.

 

A game is a different animal from most artworks, and even then commissions are to keep the patron happy foremost above the creator. Ideally, both are happy, but the patron is the one with the money and it's always about the money in business.

 

You missed my point entirely. I never stated that people can't ask for things they hope to see in the game. You literally quoted the part where I said people are free to share their thoughts and criticisms. Because shockingly that's how art works. Critism and consensus generally lead to an improvement in the creator and the creation (generally). I only take issue with entitled attitudes that demand a game conforms to what they and/or their (usually vocal minority) group want simply because they kicked a few dollars the creator's way.

 

If we're going to bring up the beast that is business, then no, Bioware's main priority is not to appease the players. It's to appease EA and their shareholders. Which of course leads to retaining subs, but how many people are going to quit over a single story choice exactly? My point remains that you are owed nothing beyond what the tos outlines and these entitled attitudes serve no one but those that think all gamers are whiny, spoiled little children.

-

[JennyFlynn]

As an artist, this kind of view point is always worrisome to me. You are not entitled to someone else's creative property. The people making this game are making it to fulfil their vision, not yours. Certainly they hope to entertain as many people as realisticly possible while creating something meaningful to themselves, but their end goal isn't to make you, specifically, happy. By all means, voice your thoughts and criticisms, but don't talk as though you are entitled to influence other's work.

 

You're half right. As players, we do occupy someone else's sandbox and crude as it sounds, we can either enjoy what we're presented with or leave the sandbox and go elsewhere. That said, if no one enjoys what that sandbox has to offer and no one wants to play then there's no point to the sandbox and the creators are left empty-handed and unemployed.

 

In this case, no, Bioware doesn't have to cater to the wishes of every individual player and they shouldn't. However, in the interest of business and the game's longevity, they should always try to ensure the majority of their player base feels satisfied enough to continue investing in the game. Not just with their enjoyment and time but with their subs and CM spending. We're not talking about an independent fanfiction writer here or a digital artist who works to bring their own vision to life, who isn't reliant on profit margins or satisfying a crowd. Writing for a game, and developing a game for public consumption is quite a different thing from Joe Average writing his own story on how Satele Shan is turning into the new Sith Emperor, just because that makes him happy.

 

Now for the original subject; For me, in my personal play, Vowrawn is the Emperor. Even if the game doesn't cater to that 'wish'. I play the game as it is and headcanon whichever personal preferences I have. For instance, Theron never betrayed my Knight and she was in the know all along. No one is forcing anyone to adhere to the game's narrative for their own personal story or RP. I can understand that the two different story conclusions may pose a problem when there is a large group of RP'ers but have a community vote and decide for yourselves who is in charge of the Empire, then roll with it. Work it out within your own group/community but asking the writers to solve this matter for you, in a way that affects every single other player out there as well, is too much imo.

[BlastBoomArt]

You're half right. As players, we do occupy someone else's sandbox and crude as it sounds, we can either enjoy what we're presented with or leave the sandbox and go elsewhere. That said, if no one enjoys what that sandbox has to offer and no one wants to play then there's no point to the sandbox and the creators are left empty-handed and unemployed.

 

In this case, no, Bioware doesn't have to cater to the wishes of every individual player and they shouldn't. However, in the interest of business and the game's longevity, they should always try to ensure the majority of their player base feels satisfied enough to continue investing in the game. Not just with their enjoyment and time but with their subs and CM spending. We're not talking about an independent fanfiction writer here or a digital artist who works to bring their own vision to life, who isn't reliant on profit margins or satisfying a crowd. Writing for a game, and developing a game for public consumption is quite a different thing from Joe Average writing his own story on how Satele Shan is turning into the new Sith Emperor, just because that makes him happy.

 

I agree with you entitely actually. I'm very glad that Bioware takes our opinions and suggestions into account when creating new content for us to enjoy. It's likely because of that that we're getting a same-sex Jaesa romance, which I have not been able to stop squeeling over lol. And of course, if they only did as they pleased without taking any players' ideas or criticism seriously, then there likely wouldn't be enough subs to keep the game running.

 

My only issue is when certain players get in the mindset that they specifically are owed something by the creators, simply because they've payed for the game. It's a childish mentality that only helps to enforce the 'entitled gamer' stereotype.

-

[Lunafox]

You missed my point entirely. I never stated that people can't ask for things they hope to see in the game. You literally quoted the part where I said people are free to share their thoughts and criticisms. Because shockingly that's how art works. Critism and consensus generally lead to an improvement in the creator and the creation (generally). I only take issue with entitled attitudes that demand a game conforms to what they and/or their (usually vocal minority) group want simply because they kicked a few dollars the creator's way.

 

If we're going to bring up the beast that is business, then no, Bioware's main priority is not to appease the players. It's to appease EA and their shareholders. Which of course leads to retaining subs, but how many people are going to quit over a single story choice exactly? My point remains that you are owed nothing beyond what the tos outlines and these entitled attitudes serve no one but those that think all gamers are whiny, spoiled little children.

-

 

And, it appears you missed mine. The way you came across in your original post, it sure sounded like, 'how dare you ask for anything' it's THEIR vision, not yours, blah blah artistic integrity blah,' and I'm disagreeing with that, for the reasons, that plenty of things have been altered or added to the game because people wanted them.

 

And I'll stop you there. I don't need to have 'art' explained to me, as I was a wildlife artist/illustrator for ten years and since then I've progressed to other artistic venues, but still paint at a more relaxed pace. That aside, I saw nothing entitled about the original poster's post, they are literally sharing what they'd like to see for the game--a resolution to who the Emperor actually is now. Resolve it or don't, but either way it doesn't invalidate what they were asking for, nor does it mean that people can look down their nose at them or anyone who agrees with them, from their vaunted heights. Asking for something as prominent a part of the Star Wars story as who the Emperor is, to be a be more defined isn't that big of a deal. It has nothing to do with if so and so killed minor character Thana Vesh, or Vaylin or whoever. Minor characters don't define the galaxy. The Emperor is not a minor character and people should get to know who they are.

 

 

And your point about shareholders, is just a part of the vicious circle. If the players aren't happy, they won't sub, and that means the shareholders are unhappy, so yes, Bioware/EA has to try and give players content they deem worth the price of a sub. As for how many would quit over a single decision? Over story? I would. Many left because they didn't like KOT//... Others too, look at all the people who left when they became unhappy with no APAC server, bad ping, RNG is EXCITING™.

 

You say we are 'owed nothing' as players, but I differ in that point of view as well, if we pay they have to give us a game worth playing, fair exchange, game for money.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Lunafox

[IoNonSoEVero]

I agree with you entitely actually. I'm very glad that Bioware takes our opinions and suggestions into account when creating new content for us to enjoy. It's likely because of that that we're getting a same-sex Jaesa romance, which I have not been able to stop squeeling over lol. And of course, if they only did as they pleased without taking any players' ideas or criticism seriously, then there likely wouldn't be enough subs to keep the game running.

 

My only issue is when certain players get in the mindset that they specifically are owed something by the creators, simply because they've payed for the game. It's a childish mentality that only helps to enforce the 'entitled gamer' stereotype.

-

 

ITA with all of this. Fan feedback is important, and Bioware does need to be aware of what fans want and appreciate.

 

Having said that, the other issue I have is when players want something that is at the direct expense of other players, such as taking away a character. In this case the OP was not asking just for uniformity (which makes sense, as I already said I don't think they can continue to work with two different possible leaders for each side). They want a specific character killed off and another character installed on the Sith Empire's throne for all players. That would affect every single player whether they made those choices or not. I actually really like Vowrawn and I like Acina, too. I would be fine with either of them as leader in continued story. But I don't want one of them knocked off to accommodate players' RP preferences.

Edited November 5, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[LordRapheus]

When I use the term "canon" I am speaking solely of the lore of this game and setting. I am not speaking of the wider Star Wars canon set up by Disney. It is why I put the term between quotation marks, so that it won't be confused with the Disney canon or wider Star Wars canon. I am only referring to the "canon" of the lore of Star Wars The Old Republic.

 

To me, Canon has a few subcategories. There's Disney Canon, Legends canon (pre Disney EU novels), game canon (that game we play, that which is set in stone for everybody) and fluid canon (that which can difer from character to character depending on their choices, such as is Lorman (that's MININSTER Lorman!) dead or not?)

[JennyFlynn]

My only issue is when certain players get in the mindset that they specifically are owed something by the creators, simply because they've payed for the game. It's a childish mentality that only helps to enforce the 'entitled gamer' stereotype.

-

Very fair point and I'm with you there. I don't mind players making suggestions they feel will improve the game, be it for their own enjoyment or for a specific group within the community. Our thoughts, our feedback, our requests, and suggestions do matter and as consumers, we are well within our rights to express those things. The problem comes with the tone used by some. "I pay for this game so do as I want", or "Chop chop, I gave you my money now bow and meet my demands", is bad form and inaccurate. We pay for the game as is, not what may or may not be in the future and while we're welcome to brainstorm along with the devs, we don't get a vote when the time comes to make decisions.

 

Now I don't feel the OP is acting out of entitlement. He bumped into an issue story-wise, one that's affecting his RP community and he is requesting/suggesting a solution. That's fine, and we should all strive to want the best for the game. I merely think his solution isn't the right one. Yes, it may be beneficial overall to settle on one leader eventually and I don't expect BW to carry on this "Vowrawn or Acina depending on choices" scenario forever, but I also don't feel she should simply be killed off for convenience sake. Write a plausible demotion scenario for those who've kept her alive. Perhaps paint the picture that Vowrawn was in charge all along and the two of them had an understanding she would serve as the "face" of the Empire for a time while he worked on other related matters behind the scenes. They could fade her into the background in a plausible and respectful manner without simply killing her off in a bid for convenience.

 

I realize that would still mean she ends up "gone" from the story but the difference, imo, lies in the how and BW's approach to fading her out. I don't believe just making her dead for everyone is quite right or fair. I also think that if Bioware's answer to this complication was "Heh, we'll kill both Vowrawn and Acina and put someone entirely new on the throne!" then some in this thread asking for a solution would regret doing so.

[fishpeople]

If their answer is to kill off both Vowrawn and Acina then I don't have much hope for any character in this game.

[Ghost_Spectre]

I disagree.

 

That's fine, we can do so without having any issues. However, I will point out that I wasn't speaking about physical attributes. I was speaking to that which Vowrawn lacked. Vowrawn is a politician. You mention he set up shop in Republic territory, true. However, you failed to mention he was ready to surrender to my Warrior for immediate execution too. No true Sith would accept such a fate without putting up a fight. Vowrawn did not. Vowrawn's motives happened to coincide with the Warriors in putting Fat Boi down. After that...Vowrawn forgets the Warrior until Rishii where he makes another political speech as he is running for his life. Vowrawn is for himself and what he can get to enrich himself in power and prestige. That is the hallmark of a politician when Vowrawn embodies.

 

Acina is nothing of that sort. From the moment you meet her for the Dread Seeds, you can see she is a no-nonsense Sith of power of character. When she shows up as Empress she is even more of an embodiment of said strength. She is cut from the cloth much like Marr who you called into question because he refused to kneel to the single most despicable character in the game. What did it get him? He tells you when you meet him and Satel on Odessa. His death opened to his eyes in how wrong he'd been. He received enlightenment which he passes on to your character while constructing your new weapon.

 

Acina is the right person at the right time to forge the type of Empire that Marr began. Vowrawn will return it to "the old ways" where back biting, back stabbing, and hidden power plays ruled the day and nearly destroyed the Empire as professed by Malgus, Ravage (his admission to talking about the 'traitor's creed), and Marr. The others in that room on Ilum regurgitated same old mantra of 'we are more powerful, we are the Empire, we are stronger than ever, and everything will be fine." Nothing could've been further from the truth. The old ways of the Sith Empire doomed it to the fate it suffered at the hands of Zakuul. Vowrawn surrendering as he did was a political ploy to save himself and his benefit and not for the empire as a whole.

 

Acina equals pure and true leadership. Vowrawn is the antithesis. And thus the reason all my Imperial characters will support Acina, never Vowrawn. If the story unfolds that Vowrawn usurped her rule, they will work against him, even it it means to open warfare if we're allowed to use our alliance to bring him down. Leadership capabilities matter. Vowrawn lacks those qualities to the point of ridiculousness. Being a powerful person in the force does not translate into leadership. It translate into tyranny.

[fishpeople]

Wasn't it the Minister of Logistics who surrendered to Zakuul on behalf of the Empire? Assuming that's not a reference to Vowrawn, it sounds like someone who works in the same profession as him. Acina was only a Darth at the time of the Zakuul Invasion.

[Ghost_Spectre]

Wasn't it the Minister of Logistics who surrendered to Zakuul on behalf of the Empire? Assuming that's not a reference to Vowrawn, it sounds like someone who works in the same profession as him. Acina was only a Darth at the time of the Zakuul Invasion.

 

Yes, it was him that surrendered to Zakuul. You see him in the cut-scene bending his knee before Arcan.

[casirabit]

Yes, it was him that surrendered to Zakuul. You see him in the cut-scene bending his knee before Arcan.

 

And she's dead at least to the Republic so how would that work. I can just picture it, someone comes and tells my Republic characters that Acina is running the empire and my characters will say sureeeeeeeeee I saw her die on Iokath......

 

As I have said before it makes no sense story wise to use a character that people saw die, and that would include Malcom as well.

[fishpeople]

And she's dead at least to the Republic so how would that work. I can just picture it, someone comes and tells my Republic characters that Acina is running the empire and my characters will say sureeeeeeeeee I saw her die on Iokath......

 

As I have said before it makes no sense story wise to use a character that people saw die, and that would include Malcom as well.

 

Maybe the Sith were able to retrieve her body and resuscitate her? She's in charge of the Sphere of Technology? Maybe she's got some clones on stand by? Maybe some kind of cybernetic enhancements?

[Lunafox]

That's fine, we can do so without having any issues. However, I will point out that I wasn't speaking about physical attributes. I was speaking to that which Vowrawn lacked. Vowrawn is a politician. You mention he set up shop in Republic territory, true. However, you failed to mention he was ready to surrender to my Warrior for immediate execution too. No true Sith would accept such a fate without putting up a fight. Vowrawn did not. Vowrawn's motives happened to coincide with the Warriors in putting Fat Boi down. After that...Vowrawn forgets the Warrior until Rishii where he makes another political speech as he is running for his life. Vowrawn is for himself and what he can get to enrich himself in power and prestige. That is the hallmark of a politician when Vowrawn embodies.

 

Acina is nothing of that sort. From the moment you meet her for the Dread Seeds, you can see she is a no-nonsense Sith of power of character. When she shows up as Empress she is even more of an embodiment of said strength. She is cut from the cloth much like Marr who you called into question because he refused to kneel to the single most despicable character in the game. What did it get him? He tells you when you meet him and Satel on Odessa. His death opened to his eyes in how wrong he'd been. He received enlightenment which he passes on to your character while constructing your new weapon.

 

Acina is the right person at the right time to forge the type of Empire that Marr began. Vowrawn will return it to "the old ways" where back biting, back stabbing, and hidden power plays ruled the day and nearly destroyed the Empire as professed by Malgus, Ravage (his admission to talking about the 'traitor's creed), and Marr. The others in that room on Ilum regurgitated same old mantra of 'we are more powerful, we are the Empire, we are stronger than ever, and everything will be fine." Nothing could've been further from the truth. The old ways of the Sith Empire doomed it to the fate it suffered at the hands of Zakuul. Vowrawn surrendering as he did was a political ploy to save himself and his benefit and not for the empire as a whole.

 

Acina equals pure and true leadership. Vowrawn is the antithesis. And thus the reason all my Imperial characters will support Acina, never Vowrawn. If the story unfolds that Vowrawn usurped her rule, they will work against him, even it it means to open warfare if we're allowed to use our alliance to bring him down. Leadership capabilities matter. Vowrawn lacks those qualities to the point of ridiculousness. Being a powerful person in the force does not translate into leadership. It translate into tyranny.

 

Yeah, that's fine, I get that not everyone is going to agree all the time, and I know we don't. It's all fine. At least it's been interesting. For a few weeks there, there wasn't much worth discussing. Anyway, where you see his character wanting, I see gifts and talent. I think the definition of what constitutes a 'true Sith' varies depending on the person asked. Sure, Vowrawn surrendered after SW busted through their fake republic base, there wasn't much seemingly else he could do, though I think there might be something to the 'not getting decapitated' thing besides indignity. The man is a ritual master.

 

Whether Vowrawn helped the SW just because their goals were in sync or not really isn't all that relevant. They didn't get married, they just worked together on a single objective, in taking Baras down. As for 'forgetting SW' until Rishi, well, I think that might be more the fault of the writing than anything else, but let's say just for the sake of argument that he didn't have contact with the SW until then, that doesn't make him any less of an ally. As for running for his life, well hey, I'd run to fight for another day too, if I managed to get on the wrong side of the Emperor's digits. He's not going to stupidly stand there and let them cut him down. Who would? And if they did, they'd likely be cut down.

 

I don't see Acina in the same light as you do. I just see another grasping Sith, bottom of the barrel, that was inserted because they needed someone in the part. I don't see her as being cut from the same cloth as Marr at all, not even close. I love Marr, never for one-second doubt that, he's my favorite and I nearly quit the game because of his death. But I do think he might've been wiser not to be so rash. Again, I think this is bad writing because I don't see Marr acting rashly, but he did in that portion of the story. I think he was mal-used in the story and they just wanted to kill someone of value for 'impact' and they knew Marr was a fan fav. In my opinion, it should've been Satele to die.

 

I think a Sith that has managed to navigate Sith politics and stay alive for decades would make an amazing leader, by comparison, Acina has been with it 5 minutes. Leadership does matter, and I for one would follow Vowrawn before I'd ever follow a grasper like Acina. We just don't see qualities to admire in each other's favorites and that's fine.

Edited November 6, 2018 by Lunafox

[Nefla]

Ugh no I hate this idea. I hate having my choices be erased, if someone wants to pretend a certain thing for their roleplay then let them pretend it but leave everyone else's game alone. Just because you can't make up your mind on what you want to roleplay doesn't mean that people who sided with Acina should have her randomly die anyway and people who sided with Jace should have him randomly die anyway. That kind of thing was something people absolutely hated about Telltale's games.

 

I hate having a firm canon for a choice and customization based game. It's what brought us generic straight white emo male with dark hair and stubble #3,497 as "Revan" and erased all of the characters people actually played in KotOR unless they played that exact type of person. I have to get slapped in the face with that annoying impostor over and over for the sake of canon. There are certain large overarching story elements that should be kept but there is no reason to erase our choices. If you want to roleplay that both characters died then do so but leave the rest of us out of it.

[Celise]

Wasn't it the Minister of Logistics who surrendered to Zakuul on behalf of the Empire? Assuming that's not a reference to Vowrawn, it sounds like someone who works in the same profession as him. Acina was only a Darth at the time of the Zakuul Invasion.

 

Assuming Vowrawn was stilll working as the man in charge of logistics 5 years on? Empress Acina wanted a change in "her" sith empire. It is more than likely that Vowrawn may have taken a different role by Acina's request up on rebuilding her advisory board years earlier.

 

It was never stated that Acina was the only sith remaining or that Vowrawn fled like the rest of the council when the zakuulans came screaming in.