Make Mirror classes actual mirrors

[Kellindell]

And yet out of my last 20 Warzones on Republic side I won about 12 or 13. Clearly the imbalances are so great that Republic cannot win a single game.

 

1) Learn science. You find no statistical significance in one persons subjective experience. Lets ignore the fact you are one person, and lets ignore the fact you could be completely making that fact up purposefully or unintentionally.

 

Lets think about the amount of servers, amount of players across the entire game. I wont crunch hypothetical numbers, just think about over the course of a day how many warzones you think get run. Then multiply that by 7 for the amount of days in a week.

 

Now try to imagine what marginal percentage 13 warzones are in that grand picture. Try playing odds like that in vegas and see how you do.

 

You also didnt mention your bracket, the type of server, what time of the day you play etc...

[Kellindell]

Guess they never heard of TK Throw which ticks right away and therefore interupts right away.

If it was as severe as the OP claims Republic wouldn't win anything.

 

TK throw roots you...so if you are trying to interrupt the person with the most cast time as you run to PBAOE on the bomb/turret you cannot because you stopped to TK that one guy.

 

 

Again, your second sentence has zero meaning. Their are people in this world who dont have legs from the knees down, but are still faster then you.

 

Does that lessen the fact they are missing both legs from the knee down?

 

No.

 

Think about the battle of thermopylae or any other time in history when the underdog mustered everything it could.

 

To many factors go into those wins. Maybe those wins only happen when statistically speaking all the republic are good and the sith are bad. We cant possibly deal in conjecture like that, even with metrics we couldnt figure it out because too many participant variables exist.

 

What we deal with in this thread are facts. And the fact is, these skills (regardless of who gets the advantage) are not the same, and need to be.

 

Have I spun this pro republic/anti sith? Yes. Will people argue that is not a fact? Sure they will. But the fact is, the overwhelming majority of republic players feel Sith is favored by the devs. And you dont need to do anything more then spend a few hours browsing these forums, and you will have all the research you need.

 

If you want more proof, go look at forums of non official sites where people arent censored and dont have threads torn down, see how they feel.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Kellindell

[Kellindell]

I built a 50 Merc and a 50 Commando. It's nice to know that the problems I've seen aren't just in my head.

 

Now if only BioWare would respond to let us know they are working on it...

 

If you really have a level 50 of both, id really appreciate it if you could contribute some video evidence.

[Kellindell]

If you read the whole thread, you would realize that with that project animation change would also come your force wave change. The entire point is to make you completely equal to an assassin... But i guess the ability to read is a bit much to ask from someone who just skims a thread and automatically declares all its participants whiners.

 

Irony dictates I point out that your post is in its entirety you whining.

 

 

 

Plz stop QQ about project animation, is the only advantage shadows have against imps.

 

The power of buffed project in combo with FB is the main burst source of infiltration shadows.

 

If they nerf the animation shadows will become the same as assassin just with a slow Force wave animation.

I worked for take the most benefit of that "bug" like you all say, and i can admit that will never leave my delayed project; with that combo i can easly eat full PvP players with my crappy PvP gear.

 

Fix project will kill republics shadows, not powering them.

And if you dont believe it, just check Powerrs video on utube and you will see that the 100% of our burst is related to that combo.

 

Honestly i dont wanna see my class killed because of a bunch of unskilled whiners >_>"

[ultimateyoshi]

This thread made me unsubscribe. That's one less healer and one less character for the Republic side. I don't expect I'll be coming back until some of these issues are fixed. Thanks for bringing them up.

[Fugitivelama]

There are so many completely wrong things in your ginormous post so please stop editing it every time you think something is off. As pointed out before many of the things your comparing have talents associated with them that obviously one person took and another did not. Death from above does not deal damage the instant the ability is pushed, in fact more often that not I only get one to two ticks in on my DfA because people DO have the time to run out. The character (most times) will have to thrust into the air and begin firing , once missles hit the ground the damage starts ticking. On occasion I have fired DfA and he did not do the animation and just fired from the ground I can not however confirm if the damage hit faster. The video your using as proof shows no outgoing damage in either so you basically are linking a useless video.

 

 

As for the story line arcs, get over it, sorry people can't make two entirely different stories feel the exact same to you.

 

You know you are a paranoid conspiracy theorist when you start complaining that Imperial players can get a purple color lightsaber easier than you can. I mean its a freaking color on your screen.

 

 

I just realized Republic players have a cooler rank 65 valor mount should I start a thread QQing on how the republic is favored?

Edited February 8, 2012 by Fugitivelama

[bheta]

u mad bro?

[Fugitivelama]

Originally Posted by GitRDone

You forgot about another difference between Bounty Hunters and Troopers.

 

Vent Heat gives 50 Heat, which equals 50/16 = 3.125 Flame Bursts.

 

Recharge Cells gives 6 Ammo, which equals 6/2 = 3 Ion Pulses.

 

that means it would take 8 Vent Heats to gain a single extra Flame Burst. Given the 2minute CD you MIGHT get ONE extra shot at the end of a FULL 16min huttball match. That is assuming you vent heat ON CD every single time it is up and that all 8 Vent's actually vent the full amount of heat. If you miss a single CD or if you vent just once below 50heat you are negating this entirely. Now assuming it takes you at least 10seconds to get to the action at the start and another 10-20seconds to get your heat high enough to vent you will NEVER see the benefit of this in a warzone. It's the same for PvE purposes as well, I have never used 8 vents in a single encounter, not even Soa on hard or nightmare.

[Fugitivelama]

More false claims......Unload absolutely loses cast time if you get hit while casting it. There is a talent option that will reduce the pushback suffered while casting it.

 

Seriously please delete the numerous false claims you have in this thread , maybe that is why the dev's won't take you seriously.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Fugitivelama

[Private_Bundy]

I unsubbed mainly because of the faction imbalances affecting PvP. I noticed the project/shock thing like 1 day after I started playing and was like "Wait a minute... no they are mirrors, something is wrong here, maybe shock doesnt deal instant damage". Lol what a joke. In my opinion the empire has these advantages because most hardcore pvpers would end up there and bio didnt want to upset them.

 

And I also unsubbed during the weekend. Waiting on GW2.

[Stasley]

I have unsubscribed due to these issues as well. Can't enjoy my commando anymore, after getting higher in gunnery tree, seeing how important Full Auto for gunnery rotation is (you are basically supposed to cast it every 6 seconds but it does from no to 2/3 of the damage it's supposed to).

I've noticed these issues while fighting Empire in warzones first, by the way. I wasn't lurking the forums to find bugs within my class on purpose.

10 more days to play here and then I will probably go have some fun in GW1, collecting achievements for GW2.

[Thisisashan]

Yup, I also put a stop on my subscription, lasts till the 20th, but I haven't even logged in over a week due to how boring and lopsided pvp is.

 

Been checking the forums weekly, to see if patch notes reflect the changes necessary for me to resub, and I am so far seeing nothing other than devs trolling the concept of "we need to fix bugs before we fix balance".

 

Patch notes continue to be a joke, once again trolled by EA. News flash, balance is just as important as bug fixes, and is technically MUCH easier to do. (spoken from a programmer of 16 years now).

 

I fully suggest every single republic main to do the same, and unsub.

If you want EA to get the point that the imbalance is an important issue, the best way to do that is their pocket book.

If you want forum trolls to stop making the "uh uhn, these differences don't exist, trololol" posls, best way to do that is by leaving them with dead servers that have no pvp because there are no repubs to fight.

 

So save yourselves time and money, instead of QQing for the next year, unsub until they fix the important problems.

[inseeisyou]

Project <-> Shock *BROKEN*

 

Mortar Volley <-> Death from Above *BROKEN*

 

Just two animation imbalanced that pop to mind. FIX THEM! Or are you too busy luling it up on your Empire characters?!

[ProfessorWalsh]

BioWare owes us a response regarding this. If there is no Empire bias, as in if this isn't somehow intentional, someone needs to explain how this could possibly have happened.

[ErrantMercenary]

OMG REPUBLIC QQs. EFF EQUALITY.

 

 

Death from above does not deal damage the instant the ability is pushed, in fact more often that not I only get one to two ticks in on my DfA because people DO have the time to run out. The character (most times) will have to thrust into the air and begin firing , once missles hit the ground the damage starts ticking. On occasion I have fired DfA and he did not do the animation and just fired from the ground I can not however confirm if the damage hit faster. The video your using as proof shows no outgoing damage in either so you basically are linking a useless video.

 

 

Whiny apologist nonsense

 

He never said it does damage the instant it is cast, it just applies faster than Mortar Volley. The video in question doesn't have to show damage to show the discrepancy in animations. Damage application is tied to the animation, and you can see quite clearly in the video that the entire animation for DfA is completed within the 3 second channel. For Mortar Volley however, the character spends the first 1.5 seconds doing dick all, and then a full half second AFTER the channel is completed the third Mortar Volley shell is still enroute to target. You can actually complete the channel and run INTO the circle and beat your own shell to the ground if you fire it close enough to your feet. That you think this is equivalent is laughable.

 

 

As to the problem with Full Auto vs Unload, all my personal testing indicates that if a Merc and I hit Full Auto and Unload at the same time, he will hit me three times and I will hit him twice. Let's assume however, that Unload is equally interruptable to be fair. It still has an advantageous animation because of where the damage points are along the channel (making the third tick harder to interrupt), because the third tick of Full Auto (much like Mortar Volley) occurs outside the channel it is INCREDIBLY easy to push off the damage table, regardless of whether you have the pushback talent (I do, and it's worthless on Full Auto), so much so that taking any damage during Full Auto is essentially guaranteed to remove one of the three damage ticks.

 

 

Finally regarding Heat vs Ammo: This is a small discrepancy, but that still doesn't explain why a discrepancy exists in the first place. The real problem is somewhat more complex than outlined in this post, but it does exist. The baseline starts with Ammo to Heat conversion. As the math details, 1 ammo is equivalent to 8 heat. 12 ammo x 8 = 96 heat, and yet BHs have 100 heat to work with. Problem?

 

Well, not yet. BHs pay a 1 heat tax on high cost abilities to compensate such that 3 ammo abilities cost 25 heat (essentially meaning both classes can spam such abilities 4 times before being drained). So where's the breakdown? It shows up in the regeneration column. Regen rates are a function of the max capacity of the resource pool, or in other words, top tier regen for Troopers is .60 Ammo/second and for BHs it's 5 Heat/second. Again BHs see a minor advantage here because the same math will show you that .60 x 8 = 4.8 Heat/second would be the proper regen rate.

 

But wait! I just touched on why BHs need that extra 4% regen! They have a 4% larger resource pool to compensate for the tax theyre paying on high cost abilities. Which would be great, except for one thing: BHs DON'T pay the heat tax. Why?

 

The driving abilities for all the top specs all include talents to reduce Heat cost back down to 16 or 8 where they are paying the nominal untaxed ability cost. For example Mercenaries make their bread and butter on Rapid Scan (3 ammo/25 heat base) as healers, or on Tracer Missile (also 3 ammo/25 heat base) as DPSers. Except talents mean maybe 1 out of every 3 Rapid Scans costs 25 heat (normally, they will follow a healing scan which will reduce the cost to 8 heat), and Tracer Missile specced properly never costs 25 heat.

 

So in the end BHs get to walk around with an extra 3-4% regen in their pocket, which, as you mentioned, doesn't have a particularly large footprint on gameplay. But PvP (and challenging PvE for that matter) is a game of inches, and Bounty Hunters get to walk around with an extra inch in their back pocket. Even if there is no visible effect on gameplay, it still doesn't excuse that their is any difference in the first place. Why do these two mirror classes use differing resource systems? Why are both not on a uniform system? Smugglers and Agents both use the same energy pool. Sages and Inquisitors have identical Force meters. Knights and Warriors use the same charges system. And then for reasons that defy logic, after getting it right three out of four times, they introduced a problem where there wasn't one!

 

 

What's the most grating isn't the imblances (which are minor, but do matter), or even that the devs have been silent on some of these issues for upwards of two months. It's that people like you continue to defend this behavior. Why? I'm not asking anyone to nerf you. I'm not trying to take anything from your gameplay experience. I'm simply asking for my fair and equal shot, and even though the Salvation v. Revivification fix goes through in two weeks to much applause and bravado in Empire camps, when we Republic players DARE ask for similar treatment after TWO MONTHS, we're branded as whiny QQ bots that aren't deserving of attention.

 

That's worse than childish, and you know it. If you have any genuine interest in the long term health of this game, and in interesting, fair, competitive gameplay, you should want these issues investigated. What if down the road new abilities were introduced and the scales tipped the other way? Wouldn't you want the devs to look into it?

Edited February 8, 2012 by ErrantMercenary

[greviouz]

@Fugitivelama

 

Unload is not bugged at all compared to Full auto

 

got a 50 of both and can say for certain that my BH needs to take multiple hits from mobs to even get the pushback while using unload

 

while on the trooper that has the exact same spec only needs the mob to look hard on him to loose the 3rd tick of full auto....pretty much nothing is needed for a trooper to loose the 3rd tick of full auto

 

tbh whining about some bugs that affect all classes like skill channels and nothing happens

DFA vs MV has been prooven trough video Evidence

DFA is pretty much instant(if it isnt you're having lag or fps lag cause it works perfect on my 50 BH and my friends 50 BH)

While MV is so bugged it cant finish properly in the Youtube vid linked it takes a full 2 seconds from starting the animation(pressing and releasing button) before the 1st shell hits the target.....i would call that substantial evidence

 

so go back to your rock trying to derail a thread that has tons of facts/bugs that BioWare needs to open their eyes too

[Valenhil]

that means it would take 8 Vent Heats to gain a single extra Flame Burst. Given the 2minute CD you MIGHT get ONE extra shot at the end of a FULL 16min huttball match. That is assuming you vent heat ON CD every single time it is up and that all 8 Vent's actually vent the full amount of heat. If you miss a single CD or if you vent just once below 50heat you are negating this entirely. Now assuming it takes you at least 10seconds to get to the action at the start and another 10-20seconds to get your heat high enough to vent you will NEVER see the benefit of this in a warzone. It's the same for PvE purposes as well, I have never used 8 vents in a single encounter, not even Soa on hard or nightmare.

Fail logic is fail. I won't even point out what's wrong, that would be demeaning.

[SeloDaoC]

grevious, can you check how long time it takes for your tracer missle to do its damage from when you acivate it? is it 1.5 seconds?

 

can you start casting a new tracer missle directly after 1.5 seconds?

[greviouz]

this post is not far from 100 pages....how much more must we wait before a developer gives us at least a reply?

 

at least come with something that Bioware is aware of the problem and is working on a solution

 

holding a 2 month+ silent time about a issue witch have been since beta(mind this is some info a friend who was in the beta since july just told me. myself i didnt play until the end of the beta period and played empire)

just make you loose subscribers over time because you are not replying that you know about this and working on it

[greviouz]

grevious, can you check how long time it takes for your tracer missle to do its damage from when you acivate it? is it 1.5 seconds?

 

can you start casting a new tracer missle directly after 1.5 seconds?

 

Edit: Just tested it at even with alacrity so that the tracer is down to 1.38 sec cast time . it hits about 1 second after the cast is done at max range

And i can also spam tracer missile just after done casting one

Edited February 8, 2012 by greviouz

[SeloDaoC]

Edit: Just tested it at even with alacrity so that the tracer is down to 1.38 sec cast time . it hits about 1 second after the cast is done at max range

And i can also spam tracer missile just after done casting one

 

It takes 1.5 seconds to cast grav round, then 0.5 for the damage to occur, but you cant cast another grav round until those 2.0 seconds are up

 

So, you can spam tracer missle more then grav round?

Edited February 8, 2012 by SeloDaoC

[Dannicus]

Don't think I've replied yet. Doing so to keep this bumped because it's pretty obnoxious.

 

In most cases, they need to give the disadvantage of the Republic mirror to the Empire side, or tweak both to normalize them. Smuggler VS Agent should definitely be a case of the Empire mirror getting the disadvantage in particular for the stun and probe, but something like Shock should have about a 0.3 second animation before it goes off and project to be sped up and hit "instantly" at the apex of the lift.

 

In the case of the Trooper VS Bounty Hunter, though, most of the issues seem to be clear bugs and oversights that should be fixed ASAP. You have about 1/3 of a second before the third MV shot goes off in which the channel is completely over and you can move and attack without canceling the final shot. It also takes over one full second before the first shot is even fired. Ammo VS Heat I think would suffice with a slight ammo regeneration rate boost.

[prochuvi]

im agree, i didnt know that gravity round bug and as 50 comando i want it fixed it asap or they can forget my money

[Gosten]

I support this thread. The issues discussed, specifically Trooper class problems, are significant and easily verifiable. I believe these are bugs causing balance issues.

[inseeisyou]

I support this thread. The issues discussed, specifically Trooper class problems, are significant and easily verifiable. I believe these are bugs causing balance issues.

 

Yes, but when will these issues been fixed? It is one of the top complaints about the game yet they have not acknowledged these issues or the intention to fix it in the least. Shocking.