Why is there no kill option for Lana?

[Goreshaga]

It's actually not. In 2/3 instances the player's waking up in the med bay after being attacked, and Theron and Koth are also present (but apparently they're okay to be there?) . When the character's waking up on the Gravestone, three more characters come strolling uninvited into the med bay right after they wake up, too.

 

One time it IS the player's bedroom on the ship, but Lana's studying the holocron at a desk across the room and isn't even paying attention to them until they wake up and say something. Even in the med bay, Lana's just talking to Koth across the room when the player wakes up. The third time she IS watching them, but considering that the player was just fried by the rigged Iokath throne, she might have been trying to see that they were, you know, alive.

Personnally, i have no problem with the first time after you nearly died on Asylum, she's the one who knows you the most, it's logical that she's the first one you see at that point, especially since there is a high probability that your LI would not be here. And it makes even more sense if she is your LI.

The second time, it is in a bedroom and yeah that's bad writing here, because she has nothing to do in your bedroom, unless you're romancing her.

Third time on Iokath, her being the closest to you at that moment makes sense unless you're romancing Theron, who is also in the room.

 

All in all, it makes sense for her to seemingly be the most worried about you IF your LI is not in the room or if she is your LI for the med bay scenes, for the bedroom scene on the other hand, that's just creepy, unless she is your LI.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Goreshaga

[aerockyul]

Personnally, i have no problem with the first time after you nearly died on Asylum, she's the one who knows you the most, it's logical that she's the first one you see at that point, especially since there is a high probability that your LI would not be here. And it makes even more sense if she is your LI.

The second time, it is in a bedroom and yeah that's bad writing here, because she has nothing to do in your bedroom, unless you're romancing her.

Third time on Iokath, her being the closest to you at that moment makes sense unless you're romancing Theron, who is also in the room.

 

All in all, it makes sense for her to seemingly be the most worried about you IF your LI is not in the room for the med bay scenes, for the bedroom scene on the other hand, that's just creepy.

 

She's studying the holocron you specifically asked her to keep for safekeeping. Not staring at you inches from your face

[Goreshaga]

She's studying the holocron you specifically asked her to keep for safekeeping. Not staring at you inches from your face

Well she could be studying it anywhere else than in the room you're sleeping in, especially since you specifically asked her to keep it hiden from Valkorion who happens to be in the room as well

[IoNonSoEVero]

Personnally, i have no problem with the first time after you nearly died on Asylum, she's the one who knows you the most, it's logical that she's the first one you see at that point, especially since there is a high probability that your LI would not be here. And it makes even more sense if she is your LI.

The second time, it is in a bedroom and yeah that's bad writing here, because she has nothing to do in your bedroom, unless you're romancing her.

Third time on Iokath, her being the closest to you at that moment makes sense unless you're romancing Theron, who is also in the room.

 

All in all, it makes sense for her to seemingly be the most worried about you IF your LI is not in the room or if she is your LI for the med bay scenes, for the bedroom scene on the other hand, that's just creepy, unless she is your LI.

 

Yeah, but when the complaints about this are made, it's "she's always in your bedroom watching you!" and that's just not true. As mentioned, twice it's in the med bay, **there are other people present in both cases** and as mentioned, it makes sense for her to be there and to be concerned if you're still alive.

 

For the second, the one where she *is* in the bedroom, she's sitting at a desk. Looking at the holocron. Not even paying attention to the PC until they wake up.

 

NO, I actually don't think it was good writing to put her there. But it's not as though she's perched on the edge of your bed, making sexual remarks or hitting on you (unlike other companions who hit on you AND WON'T STOP when they're asked to), or telling you she loves watching you sleep, a la Edward in Twilight.

 

And it's not as though there aren't other scenes in the game where you wake up with people present around you. In the Sith Inquisitor story you're knocked out at least twice, and in the Agent story too, and I've never heard anyone complain about Andronikos or Vector being creepy for "hovering over them" in the med bay (and they do that even if you're not romancing them).

 

And I've never heard anyone complain that it's creepy that Koth and Theron are also present, or that several others come into the med bay without you inviting them on the Gravestone.

[IoNonSoEVero]

Well she could be studying it anywhere else than in the room you're sleeping in, especially since you specifically asked her to keep it hiden from Valkorion who happens to be in the room as well

 

And the player is the one who *alerts* Valkorion to the holocron's presence by asking Lana out loud if she has it...

[SithKoriandr]

Plans change and the same voice actor thing is the main impediment. Why do you think we get a new twilek non-romanceable Huttese speaking companion? Paxton = forget about Zenith. This doesn't make things any better but... hey.. in my head canon, "Zenith" was not a person but an ideal taking many forms , for example Torian. I know you don't understand, there's nothing to understand at all, i'm just incoherent right now and very sad , please forgive me.

 

That's what people said about the Khem clone.

 

Now, only if I can get back my Zash.

[SithKoriandr]

Okay the Chapter with Marr and Satele is one of my favorites! Eventually, our PC's needed a "Spiritual Journey" and having Satele and Marr was beautiful. Should they have made a different introduction? Yeah, because the whole "you need Valky's help" was stupid no matter who gave the Quest. The most irritating part was Lana pushing for Kalyio, and I loath Kalyio.

 

Banishing Kalyio is one of the most satisfying moments in the Game for me!

 

Another part of the bad writing.

 

Lana had to push for one and Theron the other. It was a matter of the writers feeling compelled to give some sort of Light/Dark spin on what should've been...

 

"Who's skills will work best for this situation."

 

On the end, whoever you choose, the other screws up. :/

[Damask_Rose]

I agree that feedback to avoid future problems and concerns is helpful and necessary, and we all need to vent about what we don't like - but yes, I do also think that the devs pay attention because we've had some examples of that. The way Koth was dealt with appears to have been in direct response to the way players complained about him. KOTET seemed to have been shortened due to player feedback. Arcann had a writer in his corner but there were also some very enthusiastic fans who wanted the romance, which I really think contributed to it actually happening. There are also a few good examples you actually gave below, like Scourge potentially being a LI, the expanded SGR.

 

I don't think any of that was a response to forum feedback. My impression was that Koth's fate was sealed long before anyone even met him. There is too much lead time in producing story content. KotET being shortened was more likely due to players quitting because they didn't like KotFE. They sure as heck didn't address the majority of people's feedback on why they didn't like KotFE, so I suspect it was the bean counters and not the players feedback that was at play. Arcann's writer was in his corner before the fan thread started.

 

The responsiveness we are seeing with added romances for old companions is something brand new. It will be interesting to see how that plays out since the dev team seems to be pretty tone deaf.

 

But taking Lana out is not "appealing to a wider audience." A lot of people DO like Lana; the character means a lot to some people, and removing her from the game has deleterious effects on the playerbase too. Judging by all the players I see running around with her and comments here and elsewhere, far more people like Lana than hate her. So in that light would taking her out completely be the best thing? Not really.

 

Once again, I said nothing about taking her out of all future content for people who like her. I was saying future content can be written to give players a choice in the matter. Giving people a choice to have her or to not have her would, indeed, cater to a broader audience.

 

Would you feel that way if your Jedi had to talk to Grand Master Beniko instead of Grand Master Shan, and if one whole side of SoR had been about Lana's family drama with Revan, and if you'd had to listen to a lot of very uncomfortable conversations where she went on about her parents, the way you have to with Theron? Or if the next story chapter is about her family? I think people would complain.

 

Yah, I'd pretty much feel the same if Lana's parents were also in the game and featured just as predominantly as Theron's. I'm pretty neutral about Lana and getting a feel for her childhood might make her more engaging. Hey, they could have made one of her parents the Imp side quest contact! That could have been hilarious! Perhaps because I'm not a fan of Satele's, I can't recall any chapter that was just about her relationship to Theron I can only think of a stray comment here and there. I can't think of anything that made SoR about Shan family drama either, other than Revan being an ancestor.

 

No matter what is said and done, someone will complain. To quote John Lydgate “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.

 

Doc refuses to take a 'no' when his flirting is not appreciated and will not back off for quite some time. That's the triggery issue for me, and it's not harmless IRL.

 

What you went through in real life is not what Doc does, but being triggered by something doesn't have to be logical. He initiates a flirt twice and stops after the second rejection. There is no intimidation or inappropriate touching. He is her employee, so she is perfectly capable of kicking him off the ship if he bothers her. The player character can be far more inappropriate and aggressive in many cases.

 

It's a good point that if they are separating the quest givers from the companions again, there's more flexibility and that might make people happy. But I don't think there are too many people they could have used. I can't see them going with someone as unappealing as a character as the ship droid if they actually had a more engaging option, like Jonas on the Republic side.

 

Off the top of my head they could have used Keeper or General Hesker.

 

Seriously. Something they likely either done to save time or hell may not have even been your bedroom. Was it for sure the bedroom?

 

By that logic, I can say, "Yes. I wanted to romance Andronikus, but I never wanted him in my bedroom. The game forced that on me! I thought the holo projector looked like a good enough place! Even the pilot's chair!"

 

And was it for sure a bedroom, because my character woke up in her outfit. Fully clothed. Not something one generally goes to bed in.

 

Oh? You wash that away as "Well, limits of animation."? Well then, time to realize that scene with Lana is not nearly as bad as you want to make it out to be, but rather just something you cling to in an attempt to try to explain why you just don't want her around.

 

Don't like the personality, is one thing. Using that seen comes off as a sad attempt at adding fuel to your desire to get rid of her, when it's obviously just a limit of everything.

 

Hell, could be you slept on a cot by a computer station as you were up all night.

 

Yes for the holocron scene it was our bedroom. Our characters don't have pajamas and have never been shown in pajamas in other bedroom scenes. They are always fully clothed.

 

I'm sure it was done to cut corners, but that doesn't make it any less creepy. I don't have a single co-worker that I'd want to find hanging out in my bedroom uninvited, regardless if they were staring at me or not. And if you weren't in a relationship with Andronikous and you woke up to him hanging out in your bedroom, I certainly wouldn't blame you for complaining, because that would be creepy too.

 

Once again, I don't dislike Lana! I don't particularly like her, but I certainly don't dislike her. I'm tired of her and I want to see other characters get some time in the sun. And since I didn't romance her she had no business in my bedroom uninvited. Maybe your bedroom is a public work space, but mine is not.

[IoNonSoEVero]

Once again, I said nothing about taking her out of all future content for people who like her. I was saying future content can be written to give players a choice in the matter. Giving people a choice to have her or to not have her would, indeed, cater to a broader audience.

 

But the thing is, unless the dev team takes a drastic turn, we know they don't do that. We have the precedent of 30+ characters being bricked, including 17 love interests. Even if they do include Theron - and keeping him alive for all eight classes in the auto-complete leads me to believe that they will see 'alive' as the default for him - there's no guarantee they would do that for any other character. Thus, at this point, writing her out for some = writing her out for all. It would be nice if it were different, but realistically I don't see that happening.

 

No matter what is said and done, someone will complain. To quote John Lydgate “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.

 

That's true - and that's also why I think they should err on the side of keeping characters (not just Lana) alive and active. Having more characters gives them a wider palette to work with, while bricking them narrows the focus more and more. People resent Lana getting more focus in the traitor arc, but realistically, after all those kill options, who else was left that was trustworthy?

 

What you went through in real life is not what Doc does, but being triggered by something doesn't have to be logical. He initiates a flirt twice and stops after the second rejection. There is no intimidation or inappropriate touching. He is her employee, so she is perfectly capable of kicking him off the ship if he bothers her. The player character can be far more inappropriate and aggressive in many cases.

 

The JK has no agency whatsoever in the game when it comes to Doc. She cannot kick him off the ship at any point (or I would have). She cannot refuse to take him with her. And she's forced to work with him on Balmorra, where he repeatedly makes inappropriate comments in front of her colleagues when they're trying to complete a mission. It's way more than two flirts, and he shows no respect to the JK's wishes. There's even a line where he says something like, "you can keep saying no and I'm going to keep going." And when the JK says she doesn't want him to call her 'beautiful,' he shrugs and changes it to 'gorgeous,' still objectifying her in a way she doesn't want.

 

I'm sure it was done to cut corners, but that doesn't make it any less creepy. I don't have a single co-worker that I'd want to find hanging out in my bedroom uninvited, regardless if they were staring at me or not. And if you weren't in a relationship with Andronikous and you woke up to him hanging out in your bedroom, I certainly wouldn't blame you for complaining, because that would be creepy too.

 

Once again, I don't dislike Lana! I don't particularly like her, but I certainly don't dislike her. I'm tired of her and I want to see other characters get some time in the sun. And since I didn't romance her she had no business in my bedroom uninvited. Maybe your bedroom is a public work space, but mine is not.

 

Lana doesn't make any sexual remarks toward the PC or even attempt to flirt with them, she's doing something else (not watching them), and she never touches them or makes any inappropriate advances in any way. I do think it was bad writing to have her working there, but I'm a bit stunned that someone would see that as being creepier than Doc's repeated advances. And it's also tiresome to see this brought up again and again as though she were Edward Cullen and was perched on the edge of the PC's bed every night, when it was in fact a moment of bad writing, like every character has had at one point or another.

Edited December 6, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[JakRoanin]

I guess what gets me the most is that there is a difference between wanting a character to leave a story, and wanting to kill them! I don't like killing at all, I choose the "let live" option everywhere I can. Broomark is the only AA or Comp I've ever killed because it's forced.

 

I despise Lana, but I don't want her dead, I want her to go away! This is an RPG meaning that I have some ability to form my own story. Others got that Opportunity with Theron and will not have him as a future Comp.

[IoNonSoEVero]

Another part of the bad writing.

 

Lana had to push for one and Theron the other. It was a matter of the writers feeling compelled to give some sort of Light/Dark spin on what should've been...

 

"Who's skills will work best for this situation."

 

On the end, whoever you choose, the other screws up. :/

 

The irony is that Kaliyo's original goal seems way more light-sided to me. She wanted to control the frequency; Aric wanted to blow the entire thing up (which likely would have included anyone in it). Kaliyo's goal did seem more in line with Lana's thinking to me simply because it was pragmatic, though.

[aerockyul]

Well she could be studying it anywhere else than in the room you're sleeping in, especially since you specifically asked her to keep it hiden from Valkorion who happens to be in the room as well

 

Honestly any instance where one thinks they're putting one over on ol' Valkorian is poorly conceived, at best.

 

A lot is riding on your health and well-being in this part of the story. If something happens to you the whole thing goes up in smoke and death. Lana might have the only key to stopping it just shoved into her gut hastily and she probably has little to no idea what to do with it. She probably wants you to be the absolute first person she talks to if she finds something out about it.

[JakRoanin]

The irony is that Kaliyo's original goal seems way more light-sided to me. She wanted to control the frequency; Aric wanted to blow the entire thing up (which likely would have included anyone in it). Kaliyo's goal did seem more in line with Lana's thinking to me simply because it was pragmatic, though.

 

Sure so LS her escape rout was a hospital. A place full of non-combatants. Whereas the Spire is full of Military personnel and Ordinance. But, sure Kalyio is Light Side and Lana is all heart who helps every stray puppy. Oh wait, she yells at you every time you do something that doesn't directly help the agenda...

[IoNonSoEVero]

Sure so LS her escape rout was a hospital. A place full of non-combatants. Whereas the Spire is full of Military personnel and Ordinance. But, sure Kalyio is Light Side and Lana is all heart who helps every stray puppy. Oh wait, she yells at you every time you do something that doesn't directly help the agenda...

 

She ended up going through the hospital because she got in trouble and Aric jumped in. Not because she originally planned to blow up a hospital. I didn't say Kaliyo was light side; I said her *goal* of keeping the Spire intact was LS. Reading what is actually written might help you.

 

As to Lana yelling at you, try playing SoR on Republic side and disagreeing with Theron. He insults you, he yells, and he's downright nasty.

[SithKoriandr]

I'm sure it was done to cut corners, but that doesn't make it any less creepy. I don't have a single co-worker that I'd want to find hanging out in my bedroom uninvited, regardless if they were staring at me or not. And if you weren't in a relationship with Andronikous and you woke up to him hanging out in your bedroom, I certainly wouldn't blame you for complaining, because that would be creepy too.

 

Once again, I don't dislike Lana! I don't particularly like her, but I certainly don't dislike her. I'm tired of her and I want to see other characters get some time in the sun. And since I didn't romance her she had no business in my bedroom uninvited. Maybe your bedroom is a public work space, but mine is not.

 

Okay. So we agree it was bad writing.

 

It wasn't creepy for your character as the character was never given the option.

 

One can say, "Well, I the player found it creepy." but then you the player know it was something done on the part of the writers to cut corners.

 

I do agree, I want to see other characters, but don't want a kill option for Lana and most of those who do, it's because "I lost my fave companion due to a death option, so I want it for other's faves."

 

When there are still handful of companions that don't have death options, but they focus on Lana. The only character to get the PC out of the carbonite freeze. That's so awful of her

[SithKoriandr]

I guess what gets me the most is that there is a difference between wanting a character to leave a story, and wanting to kill them! I don't like killing at all, I choose the "let live" option everywhere I can. Broomark is the only AA or Comp I've ever killed because it's forced.

 

I despise Lana, but I don't want her dead, I want her to go away! This is an RPG meaning that I have some ability to form my own story. Others got that Opportunity with Theron and will not have him as a future Comp.

 

An option to have her go away, basically kills her for the stories of others. Which is why, no, don't want her dead.

 

Didn't want such an option for Theron either or any LI. LI's were the best way to keep crews alive and cutting back on companions. Forget about the awesome crew members that can't be LIs (unless they make it possible).

[Nefla]

Seriously. Something they likely either done to save time or hell may not have even been your bedroom. Was it for sure the bedroom?

By that logic, I can say, "Yes. I wanted to romance Andronikus, but I never wanted him in my bedroom. The game forced that on me! I thought the holo projector looked like a good enough place! Even the pilot's chair!"

And was it for sure a bedroom, because my character woke up in her outfit. Fully clothed. Not something one generally goes to bed in.

Oh? You wash that away as "Well, limits of animation."? Well then, time to realize that scene with Lana is not nearly as bad as you want to make it out to be, but rather just something you cling to in an attempt to try to explain why you just don't want her around. Don't like the personality, is one thing. Using that seen comes off as a sad attempt at adding fuel to your desire to get rid of her, when it's obviously just a limit of everything.

 

Hell, could be you slept on a cot by a computer station as you were up all night.

Yes, it was the bedroom and you were sleeping in a bed. As far as being clothed, your character is always clothed and always has their weapon regardless of if it makes sense or not. Every sleeping scene has you clothed and armed, every captured scene has you armed and armored, etc...You're sleeping and Lana is in your room while you're sleeping. I don't have to "add fuel" to my desire to get rid of her, the game does that for me by adding creepy-*** scenes like this. Your argument about Andronikos makes no sense. A person romancing a character chose to romance that character, when your character has sex with that romance partner you choose whether they will or not. The location they have sex is of no consequence. I did not choose to have Lana in my life at all let alone creeping on me in my room in the middle of the night while I sleep. Step outside yourself and imagine what you'd think if that happened in real life with someone YOU don't like and didn't invite. Some male coworker you don't even like just comes into your room in the middle of the night while you're sleeping and hangs out in there. Creepy, inappropriate, horrible.

 

That goes back to killing companions and now, we basically get none that will ever stick around, because people keep killing them off. Unless they had just stuck with my suggestion.

Every time someone kills off a companion, they get replaced with Generic Alliance Character 001 -> 002 -> 003 -> etc Then put at least the LI's into the story line then replace the LI's killed off by players with characters with the name I just gave above and have them voiced by the exact same VA as the LI, but now it's a different character (Like Zenith and Theron).

 

The only time Generic Alliance Character can be used as a companion is in missions were one of the killed off companions would've gone with you as part of the story. Not as companions for anything else.

Obviously in the case of some, like Quinn and Elara, they would replace each other on their respective sides.

There we go. Those who want to kill off companions willy nilly get what they want. Those who want to let them live, get to, and no extra cost is there, as they can use a generic looking character.

So you're suggesting we just keep said characters but reskin them...uh no thanks. Me not wanting Lana and I assume other people not wanting whatever character they don't want has nothing to do with their name or looks. Reskinning them but keeping the same voice, story involvement, and dialogue does what?

 

Ranty is fine.

 

Though the rant made little sense as you'd just find yourself hating the new companions and say the same thing again.

I'm impressed that you can see into the future. The character I hate is Lana. I liked Theron, Koth, HK, Senya, redeemed Arcann, Vette, Gault, Torian, Jorgan, Kaliyo, Quinn, T7, and Dorne with Temple being "meh" either way. Your statement would make sense if I hated every character but I don't. I would of course rather have all the original companions returned to their full glory with the ones who decided to kill everyone getting less content and having to live with their actions, not the people who spared and kept everyone. If I could make that happen I would but as it stands if my only choices are being shackled to my most hated character every moment of the day OR getting a new crew of characters, I'll take my chance on the new crew.

 

By the sounds of it, it sounds like Lana would've never bothered to rescue your character in the first place.

If there were any logic to the storytelling at all, Lana definitely wouldn't have rescued certain characters of mine, especially my latest Trooper. Even if they were friendly, he's just one soldier and not some galaxy-altering figure but they were not even friendly. I intentionally took every mean, rude, or contradictory option I could towards her and made every decision she disapproved of, even threatening to kill her if they ever met again and yet she still frees him and still gives him the doe-eyed "it's so good to see you again!" treatment. Ugh. Her acting like a lovesick puppy regardless of how you treat her is one of the reasons I hate her. In Shadow of Revan it made sense that your character would be forced to work with someone from the opposite faction because 1) Your trusted ally was the one who brought them along and 2) There's this grand conspiracy you don't know who you can trust and are short on allies. In KotFE it makes no sense for certain characters to just go along with Lana and Koth the whole time rather than parting ways at the first available opportunity. If this were reality or attempting to mimic reality, Repulic loyalists like my character would go back to the Republic to look for allies not follow a sith that they hate.

 

 

Personnally, i have no problem with the first time after you nearly died on Asylum, she's the one who knows you the most, it's logical that she's the first one you see at that point, especially since there is a high probability that your LI would not be here. And it makes even more sense if she is your LI.

The second time, it is in a bedroom and yeah that's bad writing here, because she has nothing to do in your bedroom, unless you're romancing her.

Third time on Iokath, her being the closest to you at that moment makes sense unless you're romancing Theron, who is also in the room.

 

All in all, it makes sense for her to seemingly be the most worried about you IF your LI is not in the room or if she is your LI for the med bay scenes, for the bedroom scene on the other hand, that's just creepy, unless she is your LI.

All of the instances make sense if you're romancing her, even the bedroom one could be maybe forgiven if you're BFFS but none of them make sense if you've been openly hostile towards her the whole time, disregarded all her advice, and made every choice she disapproves of or even just have a detached professional relationship. The writers were apparently unable to imagine that anyone wouldn't want Lana as their precious waifu constantly clinging to them.

[JakRoanin]

Yes, it was the bedroom and you were sleeping in a bed. Step outside yourself and imagine what you'd think if that happened in real life with someone YOU don't like and didn't invite. Some male coworker you don't even like just comes into your room in the middle of the night while you're sleeping and hangs out in there. Creepy, inappropriate, horrible.

 

All of the instances make sense if you're romancing her, even the bedroom one could be maybe forgiven if you're BFFS but none of them make sense if you've been openly hostile towards her the whole time, disregarded all her advice, and made every choice she disapproves of or even just have a detached professional relationship. The writers were apparently unable to imagine that anyone wouldn't want Lana as their precious waifu constantly clinging to them.

 

Exactly. I love Knights Expansion, but what they did with Lana is irritating beyond belief. If they just scaled her back like she was on Rishi I'd deal with her just fine, but they didn't.

[aerockyul]

All of the instances make sense if you're romancing her, even the bedroom one could be maybe forgiven if you're BFFS but none of them make sense if you've been openly hostile towards her the whole time, disregarded all her advice, and made every choice she disapproves of or even just have a detached professional relationship. The writers were apparently unable to imagine that anyone wouldn't want Lana as their precious waifu constantly clinging to them.

 

I think they probably thought they wrote Lana in such a way that it's actually irrational to hate her considering all she's done for the Empire, technically the Republic, you, and more broadly for the galaxy. In their canon, they probably didn't count that she might grate on people who doesn't like other people liking them as a friend/companion/coworker or relying on them or saving them from slow and painful death.

 

It's not the first time for sure that they have misjudged how people would feel about a lot of the companions. Like we all should have gone along with a betrayal with forgiveness in our hearts and nothing else, or a murderous thug bull-rushing his way onto our ship, or all LS players would be happy to choose the only LS option when dealing with a murderous tyrant, or all DS players wouldn't lose their collective **** because someone doesn't like it when you unnecessarily kill innocent civilians.

[Estelindis]

I think they probably thought they wrote Lana in such a way that it's actually irrational to hate her considering all she's done for the Empire, technically the Republic, you, and more broadly for the galaxy. In their canon, they probably didn't count that she might grate on people who doesn't like other people liking them as a friend/companion/coworker or relying on them or saving them from slow and painful death.

I don't think that's quite on the money. It's not that people don't like having friends or being saved from death. It's more that not everyone sees Lana as a friend (real friendship is a special thing, based on genuine connections and commonalities), and Lana helping us doesn't make people automatically move her to that category.* People's tastes about personalities, ideologies, etc., are not so unified that you can expect everyone to love any character, no matter how they're written - not even if they're made "helpful." It's like...

 

*(For instance, in spite of all their shared history, the first time my sage felt Lana was her friend was seeing how Lana reacted to Theron in the Nathema Conspiracy. Finally these two force-prodigies had something in common that was emotionally meaningful to my sage.)

 

Some people love eating mushrooms. Some people hate eating mushrooms. Now, suppose a life-saving medication was invented based on a type of mushroom. Even those who hate eating mushrooms will likely feel grateful for this medication if it saves their lives. But that doesn't mean they're going to enjoy eating mushrooms any more than they did before. Even suppose mushrooms become some great eco-food that can save the Earth from climate change by replacing more wasteful foods. Those who hate eating mushrooms may reluctantly eat them for the sake of the greater good... may disguise the taste with various condiments, alter the texture with various cooking methods... but at the end of the day they still don't like mushrooms and would rather eat so many other things. Some things are just subjective likes and dislikes. Dislike can't be brute-force changed to like by placing it in a helpful role.

 

To take a less distant comparison, let's look at the "nice guy" stereotype (which we can just as easily use to think of a "nice girl" instead; we won't get hyper-focused on gender issues here). I don't here mean an actual truly, deeply nice person - such a person is thoughtful and considerate, and that's not what I'm describing. I mean the sort of person who's "nice" to us in a purely mercenary, transactional fashion, with an ulterior motive: to extract affection in return for their "niceness." It's like they push a niceness coupon into our hands and think we're obliged to love them in return. But we know that doesn't work, and it's not because we're "irrational." It's because we can't be bought or manipulated to betray our deepest feelings.

 

When writers try to make everyone like a fictional character, it's "nice guy/girl" syndrome, but with one step of distance added (the writer trying to force us to like their character rather than themselves). Not surprisingly, it gets the same kind of reaction. People who already actively dislike Lana, are indifferent to her, or even somewhat like her but much prefer other companions, aren't going to be "forced" to love her by the writers putting her in a helpful role. We'd rather other characters were in this role instead. (Maybe we'd rather eat potatoes than mushrooms, even if we like mushrooms!) And, for some people, the more writers try to force it, the more the character is rejected.

 

Feelings about characters are highly subjective and they will always be this way. Writers may try to ignore this fundamental truth and heavy-handedly try to force us to like a character by making them so helpful, but it will never always work. They may get everyone to acknowledge that the character helped. They won't get everyone to like them. And those who don't like the character are not "irrational." They simply have a different taste than the ones who do like the character.

 

I honestly felt exactly the same about Liara in Mass Effect. Here was another character Bioware put in a central helpful role, but it didn't force everyone to love her. (Spoiler-tagging this since it's off-topic.)

Liara found Shepard's body and gave it to Cerberus. She was never my favorite character, but I thought she was fine - sweet and intelligent, a nice person - until, after giving Shepard to Cerberus so they could work on bringing Shepard back, she said absolutely nothing to my Shepard's actual LI, leaving him to mourn Shepard for two years rather than telling him what he deserved to know. Now his emotional state might not have been improved by being told (considering the status of Cerberus), but it still would've been his right. Who was Liara to make that decision when he was the closest one to Shepard? Add to that Liara gets a special DLC in ME2, while Ashley/Kaidan get nothing of the sort (and can only be seen in a single brief scene compared with Liara who can be revisited whenever we like), and how she's available in our squad for much longer than Ashley/Kaidan in ME3, and clearly BW seems to be pushing her much more than the other ME1 LIs. And, among those of us who were previously meh-to-positive about her, but preferred the other LIs, that created resentment. "How can you resent Liara?" people asked. "That's irrational. She saved you!" Well it was players' meta-issue with a writing choice, not so much our protagonist's in-universe feelings about Liara's actions. Some of us players disliked that BW made Liara their favorite and tried to push her on us, when we preferred other characters. They tried to paint her in a more and more favorable light, and those of us who refuse to be forced to love her just dug our heels in.

 

So... ultimately... I think a lot of people's negative feelings about Lana, or other people's negative feelings about other objectively helpful characters, really come down to meta-issues with writing choices.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Estelindis

[JakRoanin]

To take a less distant comparison... I mean the sort of person who's "nice" to us in a purely mercenary, transactional fashion, with an ulterior motive: to extract affection in return for their "niceness." It's like they push a niceness coupon into our hands and think we're obliged to love them in return. But we know that doesn't work, and it's not because we're "irrational." It's because we can't be bought or manipulated to betray our deepest feelings.

 

This is exactly why I loath Lana. She is this person. In her first letter, she even says "I didn't think how all of this would effect you, I just wanted you to save us. Then she says but I won't do that anymore." The problem is she does do it, again, and again, and again.

 

Crabbing every time my Jedi did things the hard way to save civilians, her racist Mandalorian rant to my BH, her "oh it's not the Sith that's the problem it's their priorities" to my Agent.

[Estelindis]

This is exactly why I loath Lana. She is this person. In her first letter, she even says "I didn't think how all of this would effect you, I just wanted you to save us. Then she says but I won't do that anymore." The problem is she does do it, again, and again, and again.

At the end of the day, our characters are still saved, regardless of Lana's motive. Some gratefulness to Lana is not inappropriate for most of them (some of my characters are jerks who won't even thank those who deserve thanks). I think our characters would mostly prefer to be out in the world, not still entombed in carbonite. (Maybe a few feel it'd be better for the galaxy if they were frozen again, just to keep Valkorion in check - but even those, I think, couldn't rationally blame Lana for freeing them, since she couldn't have been expected to know about Valkorion at that time.) It's just... none of our characters are obliged to love Lana for the rescue, and neither are we - not obliged to love Lana or the writing choice that gave her this role.

 

I personally think that the writers did not try or intend to make Lana a creepy, stalkerish "nice girl." That's more the impression I get of the writing choices at a meta level. Any times Lana might seem that way, it's when the distance fades between her character and the writing choices. Now, someone might rightly ask: is there any distinction between a character and the writing choices? After all, arguably, a character doesn't exist outside the writing choices that shape them. It's a fair question, but I think there is a difference. I think it's mostly a function of whether a character stays true to their established qualities and intended arc, or whether those things are compromised in service of some other function (e.g. being a "quest giver" who must further a particular plot even if it's out of character).

 

Crabbing every time my Jedi did things the hard way to save civilians, her racist Mandalorian rant to my BH, her "oh it's not the Sith that's the problem it's their priorities" to my Agent.

These are actually things I like about Lana as a character (not as a person). She has certain viewpoints that she's not shy about expressing. At these times, she shows herself to not just be an obsequious person who says or does whatever it'll take to make the PC like her. And the flaws and hypocrisies in these moments show that not all writers are trying to portray Lana as perfect / hyper-helpful in some effort to make us all love her.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Estelindis

[IoNonSoEVero]

Feelings about characters are highly subjective and they will always be this way. Writers may try to ignore this fundamental truth and heavy-handedly try to force us to like a character by making them so helpful, but it will never always work. They may get everyone to acknowledge that the character helped. They won't get everyone to like them. And those who don't like the character are not "irrational." They simply have a different taste than the ones who do like the character.

 

And that's totally fine, unless those who dislike certain characters try to get them removed for everyone. The people who want Lana gone seem to think everyone should be on board with smiling and nodding as she's killed and bricked, and that's irrational. Compared with the attitude that if some characters are taken out of the story, others should be too, in some sick sort of retaliation.

 

I do think the writers have badly misjudged how players will react to characters and storylines in a lot of circumstances, and sometimes have assumed their perceptions are shared by everyone. For instance all the companion conversations in vanilla story where your only choices are flirt/flirt/be really rude. They didn't seem to perceive that circumstances could exist where a PC could like a companion but not want to shag them, either due to sexuality (JUST ONCE in vanilla story I wanted my characters to be able to say, "but I like ladies") or just not liking that companion that way.

Edited December 7, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[Estelindis]

And that's totally fine, unless those who dislike certain characters try to get them removed for everyone. The people who want Lana gone seem to think everyone should be on board with smiling and nodding as she's killed and bricked, and that's irrational. Compared with the attitude that if some characters are taken out of the story, others should be too, in some sick sort of retaliation.

 

I do think the writers have badly misjudged how players will react to characters and storylines in a lot of circumstances, and sometimes have assumed their perceptions are shared by everyone. For instance all the companion conversations in vanilla story where your only choices are flirt/flirt/be really rude. They didn't seem to perceive that circumstances could exist where a PC could like a companion but not want to shag them, either due to sexuality (JUST ONCE in vanilla story I wanted my characters to be able to say, "but I like ladies") or just not liking that companion that way.

Couldn't agree more with all sentiments expressed here.

 

I don't believe we should never get options for killing, exiling, or otherwise removing various characters, but the real issue is the bricking of the characters with said options, even in cases where they're still alive. That's what I think we all hate. Now some people are so annoyed by the awfulness of characters they like being bricked that they think it should happen to characters they don't like - "fair is fair!" - and to that I have to say a massive no. If we recognize a certain writing choice as a mistake, then we should ask for it to be reversed, not continued out of a vindictive wish for everyone to suffer the same. That doesn't mean retconning what happened in already-released content but doing better going forward. In future story releases, characters who might be alive, exiled, or dead should get content that players who still have them around get to experience. And those who chose to remove said characters from their stories get to experience them not being there: win-win. I appreciate that Bioware have a limited budget but this is still an area on which I'd like them to focus.

 

Absolutely with you on the flirt/flirt/rudeness. I actually didn't notice it for a long time because all my first eight characters happily played their class romances, but we really should've been given a kind "no thanks, let's be friends" option.

[CharmerLeonhart]

Ok so Lana is one of my favorite characters in game. If people hate her, fine, that's perfectly ok as I absolutely can't stand some of the characters who have proven to be ridiculously popular with players (Arcann for example).

 

But can we please remember that she is the only proper female/female love interest and romance option. And that there are a LOT of us who romance her on female characters. I know we have Jaesa and Nadia who will be made available for same sex romance, and the devs have hinted there will be more... But you know what? We don't know how involved those romances will be. Jaesa could come back, have two flirt options, tell my character she loves her and then follow me around forever like a mindless husk with no further dialogue.

 

If giving Lana a kill option means she disappears from the story virtually forever, like the original LIs, or the killable LIs, then I would rather her stay a non-kill option.

 

I mean I'm really happy for all the straight (and bi) ladies who finally got some decent male love interests, but please think of your lgbt sisters who need their Lana because Bioware forgets we exist

 

Bioware doesn't handle killable characters very well in general. How is it an "optional choice" to kill off a character when they lose all dialogue with those of us that keep them alive? It's pointless.

Edited December 7, 2018 by CharmerLeonhart