A perplexing thing

[Lunafox]

Hey, just because I'm not an theatrical genius like my father, that doesn't mean I don't have ANY theatrical skills!

First I take a figure of speech too literally, and now I'm not taking one literally enough...

 

That image doesnt open btw

Edit: nwm it opened on other browser, just same stuff.

 

I also just now edited it to add a page from the book as shown on Amazon preview https://i.imgur.com/bPJ9CZE.png Top paragraph, take note

Edited September 29, 2018 by Lunafox

[Kiesu]

I also just now edited it to add a page from the book as shown on Amazon preview https://i.imgur.com/bPJ9CZE.png Top paragraph, take note

Allright, I stand corrected! Already said I'd take your word for it. I guess I need to re-read it at some point.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Kiesu

[IoNonSoEVero]

Hey, just because I'm not an theatrical genius like my father, that doesn't mean I don't have ANY theatrical skills!

First I take a figure of speech too literally, and now I'm not taking one literally enough...

 

That image doesnt open btw

Edit: nwm it opened on other browser, just same stuff.

 

Except that we're talking about an inherent biological trait in this case. If I say that Person X doesn't have blue eyes like their mother, I'm not saying they're a little blue eyed that I'm just not mentioning. I'm saying they don't have blue eyes and there isn't really any room for equivocation with that. Same concept.

 

Plus, saying "Theron is not Force sensitive" is not a figure of speech, it's a stated fact backed up with numerous canon sources.

 

As for the Jedi Path, it says it right there: "an all too familiar accusation," which is only refuted because the parents are just attached to their kids. Not because they don't take away the children. Part of the anti-Jedi sentiment in the Clone Wars is because of their practices, and it isn't just Ludi. In both the old EU and the current canon Luke Skywalker rightly said this was awful and would have no part of it.

 

The Sith that Dooku are a part of are not the same as the Sith order in the Old Republic. We're talking 3000 years later, after the complete annihilation of the order and its revival by Darth Bane with the Rule of Two.

 

Anyway, believe what you will, it's getting exhausting arguing points when the information is literally right there.

Edited September 29, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[Kiesu]

As for the Jedi Path, it says it right there: "an all too familiar accusation," which is only refuted because the parents are just attached to their kids. Not because they don't take away the children. Part of the anti-Jedi sentiment in the Clone Wars is because of their practices, and it isn't just Ludi. In both the old EU and the current canon Luke Skywalker rightly said this was awful and would have no part of it.

 

The Sith that Dooku are a part of are not the same as the Sith order in the Old Republic. We're talking 3000 years later, after the complete annihilation of the order and its revival by Darth Bane with the Rule of Two.

There is no manual for the Old Republic recruitment methods to draw from, only the Path one. And having a right to conscript doesn't mean it is commonly used. We have conscription laws in my country for the military- but total refusal to serve won't make cops appear on your doorsteps and kick you in training camp, that's not how conscription works most of the time. There are circumstances where the government can force conscription, but they're specific (like war time), and so is the case with most conscription.

There is no records of conscription happening beyond the examples I laid out in current or past lore within Jedi Order (if you have more examples, do tell) so we have no reason to assume it is the default action. Even all in-game recruitments by Jedi are permission-seeking.

 

All we know for a fact from Old Republic is that all force-sensitives on Imperial planets are to be trained as Sith.

That is the only literal concrete statement we get ingame about conscription for either side as far as I know this era.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Kiesu

[Ardrossan]

The Jedi Path book was published [in-universe] almost 3000 years after the events of this game [990 BBY]. Nothing it says applies here. Edited September 29, 2018 by Ardrossan

[rumpol]

Been away for a bit and the discussion has moved on but I'd just like something clarified if possible. Ashara, some random Padawan the Sith finds on Taris and uses to perform a task deserves death for asking to be treated as an equal after about seven years but Andronikos, some random criminal the Sith finds on Tattooine, and uses to perform a task, expects to be treated as a partner from the get-go and those same Sith are like "respect bro /highfive"?

 

I mean the same Sith that demands death for Ashara would totes respect an ex-republic, non force using, Sith artefact stealing, generic pirate #225 and instantly promote him to captain of their ship and allow him to come and go as he pleases.

 

Sounds legit.

Edited September 30, 2018 by rumpol

[Swingkittie]

I also just now edited it to add a page from the book as shown on Amazon preview https://i.imgur.com/bPJ9CZE.png Top paragraph, take note

 

There are other sources in addition to Annihilation too to support this. In the Lost Suns comic Theron specifically has this discussion with Teff'ith about not being connected to the light or the force at all. Also when he was a young boy barely making it to the Jedi Temple on that planet (forgot the name), he was almost dead. The Jedi saved him but turned him away. Why? because they stated he was not force sensitive and couldn't be trained as a Jedi. In fact, it was his wit and fast thinking that allowed him to get close to Mekhis and kill her, by tricking her into thinking he was a jedi. In the game Shadow of Revan, he makes several statements confirming he does not have the force.

[aerockyul]

Been away for a bit and the discussion has moved on but I'd just like something clarified if possible. Ashara, some random Padawan the Sith finds on Taris and uses to perform a task deserves death for asking to be treated as an equal after about seven years but Andronikos, some random criminal the Sith finds on Tattooine, and uses to perform a task, expects to be treated as a partner from the get-go and those same Sith are like "respect bro /highfive"?

 

I mean the same Sith that demands death for Ashara would totes respect an ex-republic, non force using, Sith artefact stealing, generic pirate #225 and instantly promote him to captain of their ship and allow him to come and go as he pleases.

 

Sounds legit.

 

The hypocrisy surrounding the Ashara hate is backlash against the treatment of other companions. I used to empathize for those others, but it’s gotten so rabidly and desperately irrational that now I just take smug comfort that she is unkillable and love that the writer sticks it to all the chaotic Sith edgelords who can’t stand a victim breaking free from the abuse. (Rrrarrgghh!!! How dare someone stand up for themselves! How dare they not kneel down while smiling in front of me at my command so I can kill them!! How dare they not smile while I abuse them every moment from Taris onward!)

[IoNonSoEVero]

The hypocrisy surrounding the Ashara hate is backlash against the treatment of other companions. I used to empathize for those others, but it’s gotten so rabidly and desperately irrational that now I just take smug comfort that she is unkillable and love that the writer sticks it to all the chaotic Sith edgelords who can’t stand a victim breaking free from the abuse. (Rrrarrgghh!!! How dare someone stand up for themselves! How dare they not kneel down while smiling in front of me at my command so I can kill them!! How dare they not smile while I abuse them every moment from Taris onward!)

 

Yeah, it really is. I'm still not sure what the goal is when people want LIs killed off, other than to hurt as many players as possible. That's not going to make any other LI come back, we have less companions to enjoy, and other players get upset.

 

I always find it confusing that some of the same fans who complain about Bioware being sexist seem to want to do nothing but kill off or mistreat female characters and companions and don't recognize any who are not LIs. I don't think Bioware has done right by female fans at all, but when someone's complaining about sexism and then turning around and attacking female characters relentlessly, and all they want are more straight male LIs, I have to wonder about the cognitive dissonance there.

Edited October 1, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[casirabit]

Yeah, it really is. I'm still not sure what the goal is when people want LIs killed off, other than to hurt as many players as possible. That's not going to make any other LI come back, we have less companions to enjoy, and other players get upset. .

 

While I don't like any of the LI being killed off and think it was a stupid idea. I have disagreed with it from the beginning, since people threw a fit and wanted to kill Koth and then others followed and half the people that wanted those options didn't care that other people either (1) wanted them to remain as a companion (not a romance companion) or (2) they were romancing them and they didn't care how it affected others.

 

While I don't care much about Ashara, considering I told her to leave, I understand how some can feel after what a lot of them went through.

 

I do have a problem with the way the scene was written. Yes she should have been able to stand up for herself but she didn't prove that she was an equal. Yes she redirected the force lightening, but really any apprentice/padawan should have been able to do that so that in itself is not a big accomplishment. There should have been more to that scent to prove how she had grown not by words but by deeds. Actions speak louder than words. If you are going to tell someone that just defeated Valkorion and his child(or children) that you are an equal than please back it up with actions, and again redirecting force lightning is not a way to do it. No, I don't want to kill her but the scene was terribly written for a dark side inquisitor. What dark side sith is going to say oh okay you are my equal without them proving it.

Edited October 1, 2018 by casirabit

[IoNonSoEVero]

While I don't like any of the LI being killed off and think it was a stupid idea. I have disagreed with it from the beginning, since people threw a fit and wanted to kill Koth and then others followed and half the people that wanted those options didn't care that other people either (1) wanted them to remain as a companion (not a romance companion) or (2) they were romancing them and they didn't care how it affected others.

 

While I don't care much about Ashara, considering I told her to leave, I understand how some can feel after what a lot of them went through.

 

I do have a problem with the way the scene was written. Yes she should have been able to stand up for herself but she didn't prove that she was an equal. Yes she redirected the force lightening, but really any apprentice/padawan should have been able to do that so that in itself is not a big accomplishment. There should have been more to that scent to prove how she had grown not by words but by deeds. Actions speak louder than words. If you are going to tell someone that just defeated Valkorion and his child(or children) that you are an equal than please back it up with actions, and again redirecting force lightning is not a way to do it. No, I don't want to kill her but the scene was terribly written for a dark side inquisitor. What dark side sith is going to say oh okay you are my equal without them proving it.

 

I agree 1000% that the scene was terribly written and neither the PC nor Ashara sound like themselves. It's also inconsistent with what both Ranos and Hexid said Ashara was up to.

 

But I feel that way about almost all of the two-minute returns. They're not good. I'm sure the writer is a lovely person and has written great stuff elsewhere, but with these returns, I feel like it's all been very sloppy. The timeline is off, and it seems like the writer doesn't know the companions, the PC or the dynamic they had.

 

There's a real difference IMHO between the Alliance Alerts that came out during KOTFE where the companions seemed like themselves, and what we're getting now.

Edited October 1, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[Ardrossan]

What dark side sith is going to say oh okay you are my equal without them proving it.

 

The problem is that for most DS SI, the way to prove it would be to fight, and what would happen when the Inq won? If they win, then Ashara's not the equal [obviously], and if they lose [ie by having BW cutscene the fight] the players would throw a tantrum anyway.

 

Yes, the problem was in the writing, specifically, Ashara didn't need to be EQUAL to the SI, she just has to demonstrate that she's not be a victim anymore. idk what that would look like [maybe just cut the equal line and keep the rest]. Though tbh, I think the edgelords would rage regardless; any change that didn't have her bowing in submission would be complained about.

[Swingkittie]

While I don't like any of the LI being killed off and think it was a stupid idea. I have disagreed with it from the beginning, since people threw a fit and wanted to kill Koth and then others followed and half the people that wanted those options didn't care that other people either (1) wanted them to remain as a companion (not a romance companion) or (2) they were romancing them and they didn't care how it affected others.

 

While I don't care much about Ashara, considering I told her to leave, I understand how some can feel after what a lot of them went through.

 

I do have a problem with the way the scene was written. Yes she should have been able to stand up for herself but she didn't prove that she was an equal. Yes she redirected the force lightening, but really any apprentice/padawan should have been able to do that so that in itself is not a big accomplishment. There should have been more to that scent to prove how she had grown not by words but by deeds. Actions speak louder than words. If you are going to tell someone that just defeated Valkorion and his child(or children) that you are an equal than please back it up with actions, and again redirecting force lightning is not a way to do it. No, I don't want to kill her but the scene was terribly written for a dark side inquisitor. What dark side sith is going to say oh okay you are my equal without them proving it.

 

This actually started before Koth. People were screaming for Quinn's death when he betrayed the Sith warrior in vanilla. I think the devs went way overboard with the killing of companions - and mostly love interests. Look at what they did in chapter 8 KOTET - End Times. That "choice" was horrible. And it was a forced choice to pick one over the other. At least with the other companions you could still allow them to live. I still hate that chapter the most because of that.

 

Now killing people like Saresh, Lorman, or other non-companion people I don't generally have an issue with because they aren't running around by your side for all these years like our companions. I think if people want to kill Broonmark, Skadge or other non-romance companions that's their prerogative. But they should have made the LI's off limits - all of them.

 

I also don't have a problem with Ashara. The first time I played my Sith Assassin who romanced her, I was pretty disappointed in the romance arc. But I played my female Sith Sorc and got a different perspective. I do like her but I also agree about the reunion being poorly written. My Assassin broke up with her, but both of them took her back as a companion. And I did use the line about being mad that while frozen in carbonite she was "finding herself". My assassin said that line real good - made Ashara sad.

 

But yeah all these 2-minute reunions have been really awful. Andronikas was horrible in my opinion and was completely off from the love mail he sent while my Inquisitor was frozen.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Swingkittie

[Lunafox]

There are other sources in addition to Annihilation too to support this. In the Lost Suns comic Theron specifically has this discussion with Teff'ith about not being connected to the light or the force at all. Also when he was a young boy barely making it to the Jedi Temple on that planet (forgot the name), he was almost dead. The Jedi saved him but turned him away. Why? because they stated he was not force sensitive and couldn't be trained as a Jedi. In fact, it was his wit and fast thinking that allowed him to get close to Mekhis and kill her, by tricking her into thinking he was a jedi. In the game Shadow of Revan, he makes several statements confirming he does not have the force.

 

I remember, I read The Lost Suns. It was made so obvious and stated in so many places, I couldn't believe I had to work so hard to prove it to someone who didn't believe me.

[Kiesu]

The problem is that for most DS SI, the way to prove it would be to fight, and what would happen when the Inq won? If they win, then Ashara's not the equal [obviously], and if they lose [ie by having BW cutscene the fight] the players would throw a tantrum anyway.

 

Yes, the problem was in the writing, specifically, Ashara didn't need to be EQUAL to the SI, she just has to demonstrate that she's not be a victim anymore. idk what that would look like [maybe just cut the equal line and keep the rest]. Though tbh, I think the edgelords would rage regardless; any change that didn't have her bowing in submission would be complained about.

That's the feeling I got too from most people, no matter what Ashara would have done in that scene they would have wanted to kill her off, no matter if she proved literal combatant equal or not.

 

Ashara has spent way more time with the Jedi in her life however than with the Sith, it's likely she is assuming both factions function similarly, or at-least she wish they would, since she keeps telling SI her entire class-story that she won't go against her Jedi teachings, which would explain why she looks to be equal since that's how Jedi work in the end.

It's also inconsistent with what both Ranos and Hexid said Ashara was up to.

Is it though?

Ranos tells us she has turned her back to both Jedi ans Sith (which she did), and that in some stories she is a hero taking out bad guys and helping the needy (which she says herself in reunion scene) and in other stories she was a bad guy (no idea about that one).

Hexid claims she has made quite the name for herself (would explain the rumors) and that she took out Eternal Empire patrol all by her lonesome (which isn't referenced elsewhere but could have been meant as a hint for her being stronger, maybe enough to resist SI).

There isn't anything wildly out of place there imo, just two rumors we don't get a confirmation on.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Kiesu

[Ner_idia]

It's really just more confirmation of what I've been saying all along:

KOTFE and beyond is written for a light sided jedi.

 

Everyone else is simply being shoehorned into it, no matter how badly of a mismatch it is.

[Lunafox]

It's really just more confirmation of what I've been saying all along:

KOTFE and beyond is written for a light sided jedi.

 

Everyone else is simply being shoehorned into it, no matter how badly of a mismatch it is.

 

Yup, exactly. I agree. Even in their promo material, the promo Outlander is a male light-side Jedi, with Lana in tow.

[Kiesu]

It's really just more confirmation of what I've been saying all along:

KOTFE and beyond is written for a light sided jedi.

 

Everyone else is simply being shoehorned into it, no matter how badly of a mismatch it is.

When they make a "one story to fit them all" that's usually what happens in most games... DAI suffered from the same thing. It's unfortunate.

Here's hoping we get separate storylines for imp/rep characters again for next expansion, so being something other than a hero makes sense again

Yup, exactly. I agree. Even in their promo material, the promo Outlander is a male light-side Jedi, with Lana in tow.

Male light jedi has been their trailer-mascot since Makeb though

[Lunafox]

 

Male light jedi has been their trailer-mascot since Makeb though

 

It just goes to show they mostly care about the boys, the rest of us be damned.

[Kiesu]

It just goes to show they mostly care about the boys, the rest of us be damned.

Really? I play more female characters than male characters. How is this a gender war all the sudden.

I do hope you're referring to male characters than players.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Kiesu