SWTOR finally going P2W

[kodrac]

when I have a team that doesn't know or care how to protect their healer, ... and, also, the majority of times that I will be ignored by my own team.

 

So nothing's changed since I quit playing my Operative in warzones 4 years ago then. Good to know.

Edited September 13, 2018 by kodrac

[mhobin]

So someone resurrected this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9647632#post9647632 mentioning mastercrafting, which got me thinking. So I want to hijack this thread for watercooler talk since everyone has seemed to mellow out.

 

• Are we going to get master craft mk-4 left side?
  
• Will schematics drop in NiM ops, but the rare mats drop from conquests and ranked? (and does that make it P2W? )
  
• I've heard rumors months ago of new setpiece bonuses, will this be the new T5 stuff? (you'll need to google this as I don't want to get temp banned)
  
• Smarty has a tab on his spreadsheet for 254 gear. Is he precognizant? Or speculating? Or a dev?https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tTZEODvA4-N_wLXlizG654Ii1z9gI88HavBk1WbTsk0/edit#gid=1340830784
  

 

My best guess is that new set bonuses will come for 6.0. We will likely be going to 75, so it makes sense to tie in the set bonuses to the new balancing.

 

From my perspective the P2W aspect comes from the fact that they will likely be making the schematics very rare. Therefore they will be expensive, the fact that the fastest way to make large amounts of credits is buying and reselling packs and hypercrates, that introduces a P2W mechanic, to answer PennyAnne, I don’t think the whole game is going P2W, but it is a P2W mechanic going into the game. It reminds me a lot of FIFA. And if you do not think EA have been trying to replicate the FIFA model in all their games you have not been paying attention. It is their top earning game, and makes an huge amount from microtransactions.

 

Interesting conspiracy theory on the spreadsheet

Edited September 13, 2018 by mhobin

[Totemdancer]

And if you do not think EA have been trying to replicate the FIFA model in all their games you have not been paying attention. It is their top earning game, and makes an huge amount from microtransactions.

 

There is a whole video of the history of ea and how they started that model and how they are trying to get all their games to follow it,

 

As well as this one from EA CEO John Riccitiello On Gaming Microtransactions in 2011 talking about micro transactions

 

After watching those 2 videos and seeing how much EA love the micro transactions or pay to win model, I can’t imagine they would give up so easily.

It could be argued that after the bf2 fiasco, ea are looking at other ways to work around the stigma of pay to win by looking at how players can still sort of pay to win and disguing it by people buying non pay to win items and exchanging it for actual “pay gold to win” gear in the game’s auction house (if it has one).

Edited September 14, 2018 by Totemdancer

[Andryah]

So nothing's changed since I quit playing my Operative in warzones 4 years ago then. Good to know.

 

LOL.. yeah... I guess some things do remain constant in MMO player behaviors over the years.

[Andryah]

There is a whole video of the history of ea and how they started that model and how they are trying to get all their games to follow it,

 

As well as this one from EA CEO John Riccitiello On Gaming Microtransactions in 2011 talking about micro transactions

 

After watching those 2 videos and seeing how much EA love the micro transactions or pay to win model, I can’t imagine they would give up so easily.

It could be argued that after the bf2 fiasco, ea are looking at other ways to work around the stigma of pay to win by looking at how players can still sort of pay to win and disguing it by people buying non pay to win items and exchanging it for actual “pay gold to win” gear in the game’s auction house (if it has one).

 

Off topic..... and micro-transactions as presented here in this thread is not a P2W business model (because this gear is actually NOT available via micro-transaction from the studio, it has to be earned and produced in game by players) ... but....

 

They did not invent the business model some consider so evil ... they are simply following the market moves. We as players may not, and do not have to, like it... but to pretend this is all EA is wrong.

 

AND.. to be more precise about EAs strategic plans... they see mobile gaming under a non-subscriber microtransaction business model (also something they did not invent) as a the growth market in the industry. And since EA has a wide portfolio of products and market forces and competition continue to destroy buy-2play and subscriber business models.. they are simply adapting to a changing market across their broader portfolio of products. And.. as with all such moves in any consumer market.. some of it is accepted (even encouraged) by players and some is not.. and so gaming companies are constantly adjusting and adapting to this.

 

I'm an old school MMO player and not into micro-transactions as a business model.. but I am also pragmatic enough to know that I am a minority interest in the shifting market of gamers across a number of genres and themes. In the absence of a predictable and sustainable revenue model for the large gaming companies.... we all would have a severe drought in terms of game choices to play in today's market.

 

Business models will continue to evolve as player tastes and requirements evolve, regardless if any given player likes or dislikes any particular business model. The almost complete die off of subscription only MMOs should be ample evidence of this.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Andryah

[mhobin]

They did not invent the business model though... they are simply following the market moves. We as players may not, and do not have to, like it... but to pretend this is all EA is wrong.

 

AND.. to be more precise about EAs strategic plans... they see mobile gaming under a non-subscriber microtransaction business model (also something they did not invent) as a the growth market in the industry. And since EA has a wide portfolio of products and market forces and competition continue to destroy buy-2play and subscriber business models.. they are simply adapting to a changing market across their broader portfolio of products. And.. as with all such moves in any consumer market.. some of it is accepted (even encouraged) by players and some is not.. and so gaming companies are constantly adjusting and adapting to this.

 

I'm an old school MMO player and not into micro-transactions as a business model.. but I am also pragmatic enough to know that I am a minority interest in the shifting market of gamers across a number of genres and themes. In the absence of a predictable and sustainable revenue model for the large gaming companies.... we all would have a severe drought in terms of game choices to play in today's market.

 

Business models will continue to evolve as player tastes and requirements evolve, regardless if any given player likes or dislikes any particular business model. The almost complete die off of subscription only MMOs should be ample evidence of this.

 

So you agrees with me now?

 

I won the thread?

[Rion_Starkiller]

So you agrees with me now?

 

I won the thread?

 

<Achievement Unlocked: Elite Forumlord>

[mhobin]

<Achievement Unlocked: Elite Forumlord>

 

Musco make that achievement happen. Give it to me!!!

 

I would like to thank Trixx, girgino and totem. It was a difficult fight, but we got there in the end. They outflanked us, but we fought through. They called me clickbait (fair), they called me pessimistic (also fair) and they told me at one point I was a lazy casual (one part is true). They even told me to do heroics (bored thinking about it).

 

But we did it, we won the thread. Sorry, need to end this post, I’m getting emotional.

[AshenK]

Off topic..... and micro-transactions as presented here in this thread is not a P2W business model (because this gear is actually NOT available via micro-transaction from the studio, it has to be earned and produced in game by players) ... but....

 

They did not invent the business model some consider so evil ... they are simply following the market moves. We as players may not, and do not have to, like it... but to pretend this is all EA is wrong.

 

AND.. to be more precise about EAs strategic plans... they see mobile gaming under a non-subscriber microtransaction business model (also something they did not invent) as a the growth market in the industry. And since EA has a wide portfolio of products and market forces and competition continue to destroy buy-2play and subscriber business models.. they are simply adapting to a changing market across their broader portfolio of products. And.. as with all such moves in any consumer market.. some of it is accepted (even encouraged) by players and some is not.. and so gaming companies are constantly adjusting and adapting to this.

 

I'm an old school MMO player and not into micro-transactions as a business model.. but I am also pragmatic enough to know that I am a minority interest in the shifting market of gamers across a number of genres and themes. In the absence of a predictable and sustainable revenue model for the large gaming companies.... we all would have a severe drought in terms of game choices to play in today's market.

 

Business models will continue to evolve as player tastes and requirements evolve, regardless if any given player likes or dislikes any particular business model. The almost complete die off of subscription only MMOs should be ample evidence of this.

Defending Microtransactions now? Why doesn't this shock me.

 

Microtransactions all of them are anti-consumer they are only around to milk people for more money and need to be removed from every game imho. Let me ask you this wouldn't it be better if all of those cartel market uber items came from NiM raids and ranked pvp? Rather then selling them in gambling boxes and now and then asking an insane amount of irl money for them?

 

Players have spoken this is why governments around the world are starting to list microtransactions as gambling. And all of it is going to go bye bye very soon. Oh and before you tell me how Microtransactions really do work? FFXIV is now becoming the biggest MMO in the world I wouldn't be shocked if it beats WoW next year. And guess what? No microtransactions just Square and Sony giving consumers what they want.

[Khevar]

Oh and before you tell me how Microtransactions really do work? FFXIV is now becoming the biggest MMO in the world I wouldn't be shocked if it beats WoW next year. And guess what? No microtransactions just Square and Sony giving consumers what they want.

FFXIV has plenty of microtransactions in what they call the "Mog Station".

 

What they don't have (so far as I know) is random loot boxes.

[Andryah]

Defending Microtransactions now? Why doesn't this shock me.

 

Microtransactions all of them are anti-consumer they are only around to milk people for more money and need to be removed from every game imho. Let me ask you this wouldn't it be better if all of those cartel market uber items came from NiM raids and ranked pvp? Rather then selling them in gambling boxes and now and then asking an insane amount of irl money for them?

 

Players have spoken this is why governments around the world are starting to list microtransactions as gambling. And all of it is going to go bye bye very soon. Oh and before you tell me how Microtransactions really do work? FFXIV is now becoming the biggest MMO in the world I wouldn't be shocked if it beats WoW next year. And guess what? No microtransactions just Square and Sony giving consumers what they want.

 

I thought I have been both consistent and clear.. so stop cherry picking and actually read all of what I said.

 

I stated that I am an old school MMO player and I do not partake in micro-transactions. Nor do I have to... not in this game or any other game I play. But I also understand the model is successful with a broad range of players... for a variety of reasons.

 

I DID point out that EA did not invent the model.. and is simply following the shift in the market tastes of players. Turbine is actually the one that started this many years ago. I'm sure that fact rankles you because you want everyone to be spearing the evil EA as cause. Let's be clear.. if the business model did not work effectively with players, and players universally rejected it ... then it would have died off years go. Like or hate it as a business model (I personally no not like it), it continues to be successful in the MMO market and is here to stay until some other more effective model comes along.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Andryah

[Darth_Advent]

OP keeps saying the quickest way for a "Pay 2 Skip" path to endgame mods and augs is to buy cartel items like hypercrates and sell them for credits. It might be the fastest way to list something but I still don't think it gives the same return on investment or even starts returning as quickly as understanding how to craft and vend on the GTN. It's certainly taking me longer to get buyers for the crates and items I bought with subscription CC with all of the undercutting and lukewarm IQ price dumps than it has for selling things needed by crafters and alt enthusiasts.

[Andryah]

FFXIV has plenty of microtransactions in what they call the "Mog Station".

 

What they don't have (so far as I know) is random loot boxes.

 

Now you did it.. you shot his fav MMO with facts.

 

And you are right... they use micro-transactions as a facet of their revenue stream. So does WoW for that matter.

 

And you are right.. they don't do random loot boxes..... but I bet if they dropped their sub model at some point.. they would quickly go down that same rabbit hole along with every other MMO that has moved away from a sub-only model.. which is almost all of them now days.

 

As for FFXIV being bigger then WoW....... /giggles at his approach to game worship.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Andryah

[mhobin]

I thought I have been both consistent and clear.. so stop cherry picking and actually read all of what I said.

 

I stated that I am an old school MMO player and I do not partake in micro-transactions. Nor do I have to... not in this game or any other game I play. But I also understand the model is successful with a broad range of players... for a variety of reasons.

 

I DID point out that EA did not invent the model.. and is simply following the shift in the market tastes of players. Turbine is actually the one that started this many years ago. I'm sure that fact rankles you because you want everyone to be spearing the evil EA as cause. Let's be clear.. if the business model did not work effectively with players, and players universally rejected it ... then it would have died off years go. Like or hate it as a business model (I personally no not like it), it continues to be successful in the MMO market and is here to stay until some other more effective model comes along.

 

 

TLDR microtransactions and gear are now linked in SWTOR....I win thread.....see achievement granted!

[Totemdancer]

Off topic..... and micro-transactions as presented here in this thread is not a P2W business model (because this gear is actually NOT available via micro-transaction from the studio, it has to be earned and produced in game by players) ... but....

 

They did not invent the business model some consider so evil ... they are simply following the market moves. We as players may not, and do not have to, like it... but to pretend this is all EA is wrong.

 

AND.. to be more precise about EAs strategic plans... they see mobile gaming under a non-subscriber microtransaction business model (also something they did not invent) as a the growth market in the industry. And since EA has a wide portfolio of products and market forces and competition continue to destroy buy-2play and subscriber business models.. they are simply adapting to a changing market across their broader portfolio of products. And.. as with all such moves in any consumer market.. some of it is accepted (even encouraged) by players and some is not.. and so gaming companies are constantly adjusting and adapting to this.

 

I'm an old school MMO player and not into micro-transactions as a business model.. but I am also pragmatic enough to know that I am a minority interest in the shifting market of gamers across a number of genres and themes. In the absence of a predictable and sustainable revenue model for the large gaming companies.... we all would have a severe drought in terms of game choices to play in today's market.

 

Business models will continue to evolve as player tastes and requirements evolve, regardless if any given player likes or dislikes any particular business model. The almost complete die off of subscription only MMOs should be ample evidence of this.

 

Umm, I don’t remember saying there were micro transactions here that were p2w. I was just responding to a post to supply some interesting info I watched.

If the info about them starting the whole micro transactions is wrong, I stand corrected because I can only go on what I’ve read or watched. I certainly wasn’t going to do a deep dive into the history to post on this forum.

I also understand EAs mobile business model and why they do it. I also disagree with it from a players perspective.

From a buisness perspective it makes sense as long as you aren’t worried about brand loyalty or reputation amoung players and only about the money.

Slightly off track but relevant, recent studies have shown that the younger generation who’ve grown up only knowing a world with social media and no privacy are more likely to accept the micro transactions and are or have become more desensitised to them as part of the way games are now.

I think it’s our older generations of player like you and me who find the practice distasteful when we are already paying for the content.

I remember when you purchased a game from store on floppy disks or CD. You got a book and media and owned the game. No subscription and no micro transactions. If we wanted to play in a multiplayer environment, we went to lan party’s with our systems and networked or played at work when we finished for the day,

I think it’s probably our generation who have the most problem with micro transactions or p2w models. I even had a problem with subscriptions when they were a new thing, but as more people accepted it, the more games did it. So I found my self limited to what I could play. Eventually I had to accept it if I wanted to play certain games.

I would actually prefer to pay for my content up front. I would happily pay $120 for a good game and then pay for expansion or add ons as they became available.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Totemdancer

[Totemdancer]

And you are right... they use micro-transactions as a facet of their revenue stream. So does WoW for that matter.

 

I don’t rememeber wow having micro transactions in the game.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Totemdancer

[Andryah]

Umm, I don’t remember saying there were micro transactions here that were p2w. I was just responding to a post to supply some interesting info I watched.

 

I understand.

 

Since the OP is trying very hard to prosecute the new gear (which does not even have a micro-transaction attached to it) as P2W.... I leveraged your comments within that as context and added some more context around micro-transactions as they apply across the MMO industry. I was attempting to add to your shared comment in the context of this discussion. I was not specifying that you said micro-transactions were P2W.

[Andryah]

I don’t rememeber wow having micro transactions in the game.

 

They have a cash shop and have for years. https://wow.gamepedia.com/In-Game_Store Mostly vanity items not available directly within the game.... similar to here save for cosmetic gear.. which they do not do in their game.

 

Most notably different though.. they sell WoW tokens which are each good for 30 days subscription and have fixed exchange rates to trade with other players in game. It effectively pegs $15 US = 30,000 gold and is purchased for real money and freely tradable in game for gold at the peg rate. https://wow.gamepedia.com/WoW_Token Under the OPs wide and loose definition of P2W... these tokens would be P2W.. a definition I reject and will continue to reject no matter how much the OP jumps up and down and insists otherwise and the same goes for PLEX in EVE Online.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Andryah

[mhobin]

They have a cash shop and have for years. https://wow.gamepedia.com/In-Game_Store Mostly vanity items not available directly within the game.... similar to here save for cosmetic gear.. which they do not do in their game.

 

Most notably different though.. they sell WoW tokens which are each good for 30 days subscription and have fixed exchange rates to trade with other players in game. It effectively pegs $15 US = 30,000 gold and is purchased for real money and freely tradable in game for gold at the peg rate. https://wow.gamepedia.com/WoW_Token Under the OPs wide and loose definition of P2W... these tokens would be P2W.. a definition I reject and will continue to reject no matter how much the OP jumps up and down and insists otherwise and the same goes for PLEX in EVE Online.

 

Those tokens are absolutely not P2W. They give you sub time for gold. You cannot use the gold to buy BiS gear. That is the core issue. How is sub time P2W? You need to play to get the gear.

 

Coming soon i SWTOR you can manipulate the cash shop to get the best gear, without using you ability bar. Big difference.

[PennyAnn]

Those tokens are absolutely not P2W. They give you sub time for gold. You cannot use the gold to buy BiS gear. That is the core issue. How is sub time P2W? You need to play to get the gear.

 

Coming soon i SWTOR you can manipulate the cash shop to get the best gear, without using you ability bar. Big difference.

 

If WoW tokens are not part of a P2W scheme by your own definitions, then neither is the cartel market. Players can also purchase those tokens, sell them on the Auction House for in-game gold and that is precisely what you are calling out as Pay to Win in this thread.

 

No difference. You lose thread. <Achievement Revoked>

 

.

[mhobin]

If WoW tokens are not part of a P2W scheme by your own definitions, then neither is the cartel market. Players can also purchase those tokens, sell them on the Auction House for in-game gold and that is precisely what you are calling out as Pay to Win in this thread.

 

No difference. You lose thread. <Achievement Revoked>

 

.

 

No I am not. Selling cartel items for in game gold is not pay to win until you offer BiS gear on the GTN for credits. How has that point been lost?

 

In WoW and right now in SWTOR you cannot buy the top gear without playing. That ends with craftable tier 5.

[PennyAnn]

No I am not. Selling cartel items for in game gold is not pay to win until you offer BiS gear on the GTN for credits. How has that point been lost?

 

In WoW and right now in SWTOR you cannot buy the top gear without playing. That ends with craftable tier 5.

 

Except for the last two tiers of Augments, you mean?

 

Also, you absolutely CAN buy top tier gear on the Auction House in WoW. And guess what!? Much of it is craftable! So sorry, but nothing about your assessment is based on facts. I play WoW, and I see people selling top tier pieces in Trade Chat and on the Auction House from crafting or the new raids released this week every single day for hundreds of thousands of gold (equivalent to millions in SWTOR). Some of it is bind on pickup, sure. But there are pieces that are not, and players pay a fortune for them to those who are lucky enough to get them to drop.

 

Plus, unlike SWTOR, there are a ton of items, mounts, schematics, etc. that drop in the open world that sell for huge amounts of gold, too. And many who come back to the game buy WoW tokens with their real life money to sell on the Auction House and transfer that into in-game money. It is a system that Blizzard intentionally set up to allow people to do that. But, similar to SWTOR... no one is getting any of that stuff without playing the game because it is not being sold in the store directly.

 

Edited to add: I concur that more of the top tier gear will be available on the GTN than there is currently with the new system. But it's not something that has never happened in the game before. Back when you could reverse engineer mods, hilts, barrels and so forth and then craft them, it was the same way. Excluding set bonuses. Never in the history of the game could you craft set bonuses. Due to the fact that there are so many different ones, I cannot imagine that they will be implementing this change to the new tier. Could they? Maybe. But it has never happened before, hasn't been announced, and it stands to reason more that it's unlikely vs. "for sure gonna happen".

 

So, while you might be able to pay to bypass some grind with the new system, someone somewhere is gonna have to grind for those schematics and those materials to make that gear, and that can only be done by playing the game. No amount of buying will make these items magically appear.

 

.

Edited September 15, 2018 by PennyAnn

[Jdast]

Except for the last two tiers of Augments, you mean?

 

Also, you absolutely CAN buy top tier gear on the Auction House in WoW. So sorry, but nothing about your assessment is based on facts. I play WoW, and I see people selling top tier pieces in Trade Chat and on the Auction House from new raids every single day for hundreds of thousands of gold (equivalent to millions in SWTOR).

 

.

 

PennyAnn,

 

There is no nice way to say this so I'll be blunt -- my husband is jealous of you. He saw me rolling in the chair fist pumping and asked why? I said: I just read one of PennyAnn's posts and started saying "Yup, yup, yup!" He said, "but you're a guy?" And I said....well, in a different life, but back to the case at hand....

 

Penny Ann just smoked the whole P2W argument (AGAIN). I was tempted to post, but my posts have been a bit snarky as of late and I'm at risk of getting a time out. In addition the whole augment issue being on point...

 

So to Mhorbin I have two words for you with respect to WoW:

 

ANCHOR WEED

 

Bottom line: This thread was over on post #6 when Tux said It's P2SG (Pay to skip grind). Joon then took one for the team and elaborated.

 

Hugs,

 

Dasty

Edited September 15, 2018 by Jdast

[PennyAnn]

PennyAnn,

 

There is no nice way to say this so I'll be blunt -- my husband is jealous of you. He saw me rolling in the chair fist pumping and asked why? I said: I just read one of PennyAnn's posts and started saying "Yup, yup, yup!" He said, "but you're a guy?" And I said....well, in a different life, but back to the case at hand....

 

Penny Ann just smoked the whole P2W argument (AGAIN). I was tempted to post, but my posts have been a bit snarky as of late and I'm at risk of getting a time out. In addition the whole augment issue being on point...

 

So to Mhorbin I have two words for you with respect to WoW:

 

ANCHOR WEED

 

Bottom line: This thread was over on post #6 when Tux said It's P2SG (Pay to skip grind). Joon then took one for them and elaborated.

 

Hugs,

 

Dasty

 

I have been getting filthy rich harvesting Anchor Weed and fishing for Midnight Salmon. <3

 

If I had been quicker out the gate with my own crafting, I would have had hundreds of thousands of gold lining my pockets from trinkets, rings, and other gear to get people started on the new mythic raids. If only I didn't have to sleep...

 

(and PS) - Your husband is a lucky man. <3

 

.

Edited September 15, 2018 by PennyAnn

[Andryah]

Plus, unlike SWTOR, there are a ton of items, mounts, schematics, etc. that drop in the open world that sell for huge amounts of gold, too. And many who come back to the game buy WoW tokens with their real life money to sell on the Auction House and transfer that into in-game money. It is a system that Blizzard intentionally set up to allow people to do that. But, similar to SWTOR... no one is getting any of that stuff without playing the game because it is not being sold in the store directly.

 

Bingo.

 

The OPs double standard here in his P2W gerbil dance is just way over the top, transparent, and almost nobody is buying it.

 

I can't tell if it is wittingly or unwittingly... but this ongoing obfuscation about P2W by the OP is just reached silly proportions now.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Andryah