SWTOR finally going P2W

[Joonbeams]

Maybe it's already been said, but the clear implication from the dev blog is that the gear will be BiS. They didn't come out and say it, but it's implied by saying "This Fall, we’re also adding the next Tier of gear for your characters. Tier 5 gear is different in that you will only be able to craft them from schematics." Adding "the next tier" and having that next tier be less valuable than the previous one, while possible, seems absurd. But nonetheless, we're all speculating. That's conceded.

 

However, the next tier of gear could be all left sided gear: earpiece, relics, implants and maybe offhand/mainhand weapons too. That could all be done via crafting without having to deal with set bonus concerns. Since we're just speculating, I wanted to toss out that possibility too...

[ceryxp]

Maybe it's already been said, but the clear implication from the dev blog is that the gear will be BiS. They didn't come out and say it, but it's implied by saying "This Fall, we’re also adding the next Tier of gear for your characters. Tier 5 gear is different in that you will only be able to craft them from schematics." Adding "the next tier" and having that next tier be less valuable than the previous one, while possible, seems absurd. But nonetheless, we're all speculating. That's conceded.

 

However, the next tier of gear could be all left sided gear: earpiece, relics, implants and maybe offhand/mainhand weapons too. That could all be done via crafting without having to deal with set bonus concerns. Since we're just speculating, I wanted to toss out that possibility too...

 

You're right. I misremembered some details from the stream. I went back and rewatched it. Yes, the next tier of gear is tier 5. Charles did state that Galactic Command probably will be raised as some point but not now and I confused that statement about GC with the new tier. That said, they did also say that PVE content will not be retooled around the new tier, having it will make PVE content easier, that it will be craftable because they want there to be relevance to crafting, they understand a new tier can be difficult to acquire because it is intended for progression players (everyone may want it but it is intended for progression oriented players), and they are not ready to release any information about the new gear, or anything about 5.10, at this time and we'll learn more as we get closer to 5.10, which will be on the PTS where people can provide feedback. That's really the most important point. We don't know anything. Everything is speculation. Yeah, there are those who are disillusioned, disenfranchised, disheartened, and disemboweled when it comes to providing feedback, but maybe wait until we know a little more about the gear and how to acquire it before jumping right to the floggings.

[Andryah]

Everything is speculation. Yeah, there are those who are disillusioned, disenfranchised, disheartened, and disemboweled when it comes to providing feedback, but maybe wait until we know a little more about the gear and how to acquire it before jumping right to the floggings.

 

But pessimistic speculation fuels the flogging desire in gaming forums.

 

And the general rule in gaming forums is flog first.. sort out the facts later. :p

 

Your point captured from the livestream about the new gear being targeted to progression players is pretty telling though.... even in the absence of any more details (which as you noted... they are not ready to discuss).

 

Discussion threads like this are valuable in one regard --> they help illustrate the pessimists from the optimists from the pragmatists. Other then that, they are pretty much amateur hour at the local soap opera studio.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Andryah

[mhobin]

But pessimistic speculation fuels the flogging desire in gaming forums.

 

And the general rule in gaming forums is flog first.. sort out the facts later. :p

 

Your point captured from the livestream about the new gear being targeted to progression players is pretty telling though.... even in the absence of any more details (which as you noted... they are not ready to discuss).

 

Discussion threads like this are valuable in one regard --> they help illustrate the pessimists from the optimists from the pragmatists. Other then that, they are pretty much amateur hour at the local soap opera studio.

 

Which are you?

[TrixxieTriss]

Regs are the casual mode, ranked should not be the new regs.

 

It’s basically become that already and in the last Bioware podcast I heard, they said they want everyone to participate in ranked, even if they are not geared or not ready. They want people to try it and see for themselves.

 

Bioware don’t care about the quality in any lvl of pvp. They just want numbers and participation to show on their reports. They don’t want gear or skill gates because that limits people from doing ranked.

 

IMO, it sure sounds like they just want to make solo Ranked into a reg arena queue.

 

Granked is probably the only ranked format that’s viable moving forward. At least you can choose your team. If other teams of people decide to be mat farmers, then they can be ranked fodder. At least it won’t negatively impact on people’s ratings.

 

I don’t actually agree with Biowares approach or policy. They’ve dumbed down the rest of the game and now they are trying to dumb down ranked too.

 

Reg pvp skill lvl is so bad now that it’s nearly more challenging to kill gold star guys in pve than other players.

Edited September 13, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

However, the next tier of gear could be all left sided gear: earpiece, relics, implants and maybe offhand/mainhand weapons too. That could all be done via crafting without having to deal with set bonus concerns. Since we're just speculating, I wanted to toss out that possibility too...

 

Yep, I said as much earlier in the thread. It would certainly be one way around the set bonus situation and still make the tier 5 items BiS.

[TrixxieTriss]

Your point captured from the livestream about the new gear being targeted to progression players is pretty telling though....

 

And this is a sticking point for pvpers. Some progression players (or super rich) will wear that stuff in pvp and give them an advantage.

 

It’s all well and good to have a better advantage in pve, but not against other players in pvp. That is how you create gear gaps of the haves and have nots and it ruins skill based pvp. That makes people stop playing. And that is what some of us are concerned about.

 

If some people have access to progressive armor in pvp, then all pvpers need the ability to acquire said armor in pvp content because pvpers are not progressive Raiders and won’t run MM ops to grind stuff for the gear.

 

We are trying to bring this to Biowares attention so that they think about that while developing the system. There is no point waiting till they release it or tell us about it because it will be too late by then.

Bioware do not back track on bad decisions very often and if they do, they never fix it properly, they just whack a bandaid on it and let it fester.

 

This is why the pvpers are up in arms about this and worried. Telling them to wait till we know more is the wrong way to approach it because Bioware will have already locked the system in place by then and we will have to live with it.

 

Giving Bioware our feed back now is more likely to bring the problem to light before they make another fundamental blunder and cause more people to leave the game.

[PennyAnn]

Agreed. There's no way this new tier won't have set bonuses imo...pretending it might not is just silly guys.

 

I am certainly not trying to be silly. But since there has NEVER been a gear tier that allowed set bonuses to be crafted, how is it a given that this brand new addition to crafting is going to most certainly be introduced at this late stage of the game? Could it happen? Sure it could. But nobody knows. All statements about the new system are 100% guesses. So guessing that they will not completely change the way crafting armorings to now include set bonuses after 7 years of never including them is not that wild a theory.

 

I think this is especially true due to the fact that this is not a new tier of gear tied to an expansion or a level increase. I think that makes it even more likely that they will not try to introduce a new system of crafting set bonuses into the gearing process. I didn't hear them state that this was intended to be BiS gear anywhere, or anything other than just a higher tier of gear, which would likely make it BiS, but perhaps not in all slots. That has happened so much in the past I think it's way more likely.

 

But... this is all guesses. 100% guesses. And it is sad to me that so many people are here guessing and wildly speculating rather than just playing and enjoying the game and not trying to worry so much about things that not only haven't happened yet, but haven't really been explained or clarified from the developers.

 

I want to miss SWTOR, but things like this remind me why I don't. And, I guess if I truly feel that way I should stop responding to these threads. So with that, I will wish you all the best of luck and hope that you get everything you want from the game, but most of all that you just enjoy it and each other.

 

Peace!

 

.

Edited September 13, 2018 by PennyAnn

[Joonbeams]

....

But... this is all guesses. 100% guesses. And it is sad to me that so many people are here guessing and wildly speculating rather than just playing and enjoying the game and not trying to worry so much about things that not only haven't happened yet, but haven't really been explained or clarified from the developers.

 

I want to miss SWTOR, but things like this remind me why I don't. And, I guess if I truly feel that way I should stop responding to these threads. So with that, I will wish you all the best of luck and hope that you get everything you want from the game, but most of all that you just enjoy it and each other.

 

Peace!

 

.

 

I think this is a bit heavy handed coming from you. You're normally one of the calmer voices of reason. But in this case, respectfully, I think you're being hard on us. Yes we're speculating -- many of us have said it over and over. Caveats throughout.

 

But why are we speculating? Because in the midst of a major content drought--and a feedback drought--out of nowhere, a bombshell is dropped about a gear tier increase. No details provided, none of the basic questions answered. So what happens when you see that? People start filling in the blanks.

 

And yes, sure, we can keep playing (I'm hardly playing at all mostly due to time) and "enjoying." But also keep in mind that announcing a gear tier increase has MAJOR ramifications even on playing right now. I've been through several complete wipes/refreshes of gear, some handled okay, others not so much. If I'm currently grinding to 300 trying to get BiS (I'm not), I might want to know what's going to happen and how it will work, because that would affect my grind. As a PvPer, I don't want another metric introduced that will give an average player like me an even bigger disadvantage, which is why I would push for 100% bolster, etc.

 

And since we can never know what feedback will elicit a dev response, or what feedback they're reading, we turn to the forums. And sometimes these conversations help us work through ideas we didn't see all the way through. For example, I think I understand (but disagree with) the P2W argument. Some valid points were raised that I wouldn't have considered, and so on.

 

So if you want to be frustrated, I'd suggest turning that frustration toward the studio for dropping this tidbit of important information and leaving out nearly all of the details...

[PennyAnn]

I think this is a bit heavy handed coming from you. You're normally one of the calmer voices of reason. But in this case, respectfully, I think you're being hard on us. Yes we're speculating -- many of us have said it over and over. Caveats throughout.

 

But why are we speculating? Because in the midst of a major content drought--and a feedback drought--out of nowhere, a bombshell is dropped about a gear tier increase. No details provided, none of the basic questions answered. So what happens when you see that? People start filling in the blanks.

 

And yes, sure, we can keep playing (I'm hardly playing at all mostly due to time) and "enjoying." But also keep in mind that announcing a gear tier increase has MAJOR ramifications even on playing right now. I've been through several complete wipes/refreshes of gear, some handled okay, others not so much. If I'm currently grinding to 300 trying to get BiS (I'm not), I might want to know what's going to happen and how it will work, because that would affect my grind. As a PvPer, I don't want another metric introduced that will give an average player like me an even bigger disadvantage, which is why I would push for 100% bolster, etc.

 

And since we can never know what feedback will elicit a dev response, or what feedback they're reading, we turn to the forums. And sometimes these conversations help us work through ideas we didn't see all the way through. For example, I think I understand (but disagree with) the P2W argument. Some valid points were raised that I wouldn't have considered, and so on.

 

So if you want to be frustrated, I'd suggest turning that frustration toward the studio for dropping this tidbit of important information and leaving out nearly all of the details...

 

I am not trying to be heavy handed at all. I also do not mean to act like I don't realize the impact a new tier of gear has on the players here. After playing the game myself for 6 1/2 years, and playing everything from nightmare raids to PvP (though I never did enough ranked to earn much more than silver tier in any season, but I was fine with that), I do get it.

 

I'm not frustrated though, honestly. I'm sorry if my posts came off that way. I haven't been playing the game since I posted that I was not playing anymore back in May. I have pre-paid sub thru nearly the end of the year though, so I have had the ability to read and post here and I have used those abilities to keep giving my thoughts about a game I obviously care about. You don't do something every single day for almost 7 straight years and not care about it.

 

However, it's hard to only read these forums as the connection to the game. So much great feedback is ignored, and so much hyperbole and ludicrous over the top argument happens and there seems very little in the middle a lot of the time. I don't suggest that people shouldn't discuss the announcement of a new gear tier, but a thread with a click bait title and far fetched stance to make a point about something that we have no idea how it will work is different than that. "Pay to win" is a buzz word phrase and the OP knows it. I understand the concern, but let's discuss why we're concerned without trying to shoehorn something into a category where it clearly doesn't fit. That's just my opinion, and I tried to express that rationally and calmly in this thread without being offensive to anybody just because we disagree.

 

Honestly though, if I'm not even playing the game I should just keep my opinions to myself. Especially if I'm not expressing them well enough to not seem frustrated or like I think rational discussions on the forums about gaming systems is important. Of course I think it is important, that's why I've been doing it all these years. But before, I was playing the game so it actually impacted me. Right now I cannot find a single good reason to come back to playing this game. That might well change when they roll out 6.0, but I honestly do not expect this to happen before next year. And because of that, I should let the people who will be playing the game and actually have to live with all of this have the floor.

 

That's all I was trying to say. My best to you, Joon. You're good people. =)

 

.

[mhobin]

I am not trying to be heavy handed at all. I also do not mean to act like I don't realize the impact a new tier of gear has on the players here. After playing the game myself for 6 1/2 years, and playing everything from nightmare raids to PvP (though I never did enough ranked to earn much more than silver tier in any season, but I was fine with that), I do get it.

 

I'm not frustrated though, honestly. I'm sorry if my posts came off that way. I haven't been playing the game since I posted that I was not playing anymore back in May. I have pre-paid sub thru nearly the end of the year though, so I have had the ability to read and post here and I have used those abilities to keep giving my thoughts about a game I obviously care about. You don't do something every single day for almost 7 straight years and not care about it.

 

However, it's hard to only read these forums as the connection to the game. So much great feedback is ignored, and so much hyperbole and ludicrous over the top argument happens and there seems very little in the middle a lot of the time. I don't suggest that people shouldn't discuss the announcement of a new gear tier, but a thread with a click bait title and far fetched stance to make a point about something that we have no idea how it will work is different than that. "Pay to win" is a buzz word phrase and the OP knows it. I understand the concern, but let's discuss why we're concerned without trying to shoehorn something into a category where it clearly doesn't fit. That's just my opinion, and I tried to express that rationally and calmly in this thread without being offensive to anybody just because we disagree.

 

Honestly though, if I'm not even playing the game I should just keep my opinions to myself. Especially if I'm not expressing them well enough to not seem frustrated or like I think rational discussions on the forums about gaming systems is important. Of course I think it is important, that's why I've been doing it all these years. But before, I was playing the game so it actually impacted me. Right now I cannot find a single good reason to come back to playing this game. That might well change when they roll out 6.0, but I honestly do not expect this to happen before next year. And because of that, I should let the people who will be playing the game and actually have to live with all of this have the floor.

 

That's all I was trying to say. My best to you, Joon. You're good people. =)

 

.

 

 

Is my title click bait....yeah little click baity.

 

Is my premise far off....not really. You have a very narrow stance on P2W. I consider paying to skip a long grind P2W. It is commonly used in gaming communities. FIFA ultimate teams are P2W (nobody really argues it), you can grind the coins, or you can buy packs and sell the contents to make coins. It is EA’s biggest revenue stream. I think I read somewhere it accounts for 20% of the entire company’s yearly business. They are introducing a similar system here. It is a P2W mechanic.

[Joonbeams]

I am not trying to be heavy handed at all. I also do not mean to act like I don't realize the impact a new tier of gear has on the players here. After playing the game myself for 6 1/2 years, and playing everything from nightmare raids to PvP (though I never did enough ranked to earn much more than silver tier in any season, but I was fine with that), I do get it.

 

I'm not frustrated though, honestly. I'm sorry if my posts came off that way. I haven't been playing the game since I posted that I was not playing anymore back in May. I have pre-paid sub thru nearly the end of the year though, so I have had the ability to read and post here and I have used those abilities to keep giving my thoughts about a game I obviously care about. You don't do something every single day for almost 7 straight years and not care about it.

 

However, it's hard to only read these forums as the connection to the game. So much great feedback is ignored, and so much hyperbole and ludicrous over the top argument happens and there seems very little in the middle a lot of the time. I don't suggest that people shouldn't discuss the announcement of a new gear tier, but a thread with a click bait title and far fetched stance to make a point about something that we have no idea how it will work is different than that. "Pay to win" is a buzz word phrase and the OP knows it. I understand the concern, but let's discuss why we're concerned without trying to shoehorn something into a category where it clearly doesn't fit. That's just my opinion, and I tried to express that rationally and calmly in this thread without being offensive to anybody just because we disagree.

 

Honestly though, if I'm not even playing the game I should just keep my opinions to myself. Especially if I'm not expressing them well enough to not seem frustrated or like I think rational discussions on the forums about gaming systems is important. Of course I think it is important, that's why I've been doing it all these years. But before, I was playing the game so it actually impacted me. Right now I cannot find a single good reason to come back to playing this game. That might well change when they roll out 6.0, but I honestly do not expect this to happen before next year. And because of that, I should let the people who will be playing the game and actually have to live with all of this have the floor.

 

That's all I was trying to say. My best to you, Joon. You're good people. =)

 

.

 

Fair enough and understood (and thanks for the compliment, and back at ya) -- this thread has meandered in a bunch of different directions already, it's hard to even know what it's about now anyway. I totally understand what you're saying about feedback being ignored. I was right with you when we tried in vain to give conquest feedback, objectively and with data. It's frustrating. I do hope in some way, tiny bits are getting through to the devs -- they're under-resourced and stretched thin I know. So even when I give "negative" feedback here, it's with that small hope that some of it is getting through. It's always out of love for the game. And I think that's true of you, Trixx, Dasty, TUXs, Andryah, mhobin, and many many many others who've voiced strong opinions here. Even when we clash, I think all of us want the same thing in our own ways -- for this game to last and get better, and to continue to be enjoyable value for us.

 

So what I really hope is that soon, something happens that's positive and that you see things you like and re-sub! We need subs, and we need good, quality people like you who care about this game to stick around. I know you were a guild leader and there are some seemingly very cool guild changes coming. I hope content follows soon after. I hope that piques your interest enough to try getting back in again. Cuz it would be a shame not to have you around in the game and here on the forums...

Edited September 13, 2018 by Joonbeams

[mhobin]

Fair enough and understood (and thanks for the compliment, and back at ya) -- this thread has meandered in a bunch of different directions already, it's hard to even know what it's about now anyway. I totally understand what you're saying about feedback being ignored. I was right with you when we tried in vain to give conquest feedback, objectively and with data. It's frustrating. I do hope in some way, tiny bits are getting through to the devs -- they're under-resourced and stretched thin I know. So even when I give "negative" feedback here, it's with that small hope that some of it is getting through. It's always out of love for the game. And I think that's true of you, Trixx, Dasty, TUXs, Andryah, mhobin, and many many many others who've voiced strong opinions here. Even when we clash, I think all of us want the same thing in our own ways -- for this game to last and get better, and to continue to be enjoyable value for us.

 

So what I really hope is that soon, something happens that's positive and that you see things you like and re-sub! We need subs, and we need good, quality people like you who care about this game to stick around. I know you were a guild leader and there are some seemingly very cool guild changes coming. I hope content follows soon after. I hope that piques your interest enough to try getting back in again. Cuz it would be a shame not to have you around in the game and here on the forums...

 

Very good and true post

[kodrac]

Is my title click bait....yeah little click baity.

 

Is my premise far off....not really. You have a very narrow stance on P2W. I consider paying to skip a long grind P2W. It is commonly used in gaming communities. FIFA ultimate teams are P2W (nobody really argues it), you can grind the coins, or you can buy packs and sell the contents to make coins. It is EA’s biggest revenue stream. I think I read somewhere it accounts for 20% of the entire company’s yearly business. They are introducing a similar system here. It is a P2W mechanic.

 

That's really what the P2W argument comes to down to though isn't it? I have a narrow view of it and you have a broad view of it. Maybe it's my profession and techie brain that deals in strict definitions and everything else is a workaround. The broad view is a workaround and that's why I argue it's not P2W. And my own personal experience of any credits I've made form CM items have gone towards other CM items. I've never had to buy gear because I can make my own.

 

But on that note, I completely agree with you on FIFA. I play that game too, but I strictly stick to Career mode. I won't touch the Ultimate Team stuff because it's so blatantly P2W. I didn't even know you could grind for coins. On the plus side, I recently got Battlefront 2 and it appears the last update removed any traces of the original P2W mechanics from it.

[ceryxp]

That's really what the P2W argument comes to down to though isn't it? I have a narrow view of it and you have a broad view of it. Maybe it's my profession and techie brain that deals in strict definitions and everything else is a workaround. The broad view is a workaround and that's why I argue it's not P2W. And my own personal experience of any credits I've made form CM items have gone towards other CM items. I've never had to buy gear because I can make my own.

 

But on that note, I completely agree with you on FIFA. I play that game too, but I strictly stick to Career mode. I won't touch the Ultimate Team stuff because it's so blatantly P2W. I didn't even know you could grind for coins. On the plus side, I recently got Battlefront 2 and it appears the last update removed any traces of the original P2W mechanics from it.

 

And that's the thing. The majority of definitions of Pay to Win, the majority of discussions about Pay to Win, the majority of instances of Pay to Win in games do not agree with the OP's definition of Pay to Win. Pay to Skip Content and Pay to Progress Faster are not Pay to Win. The OP can say the duck is a horse all they want, but the duck is still a duck.

[Andryah]

And that's the thing. The majority of definitions of Pay to Win, the majority of discussions about Pay to Win, the majority of instances of Pay to Win in games do not agree with the OP's definition of Pay to Win. Pay to Skip Content and Pay to Progress Faster are not Pay to Win. The OP can say the duck is a horse all they want, but the duck is still a duck.

 

Yeah... the "Chicken Little" role play is a bit over the top on this topic.. even for this forum.

 

This too shall pass though.... as with every other giant imagined tragedy.

 

Once the patch goes live, or more details are revealed ahead of the patch.... people will do some form of rinse and repeat though... because nothing any studio ever does (or does-not do) pleases everyone in an MMO. MMOs are by definition a contentious topic between various interest groups (and there are many).

Edited September 13, 2018 by Andryah

[Andryah]

That's really what the P2W argument comes to down to though isn't it? I have a narrow view of it and you have a broad view of it. Maybe it's my profession and techie brain that deals in strict definitions and everything else is a workaround. The broad view is a workaround and that's why I argue it's not P2W. And my own personal experience of any credits I've made form CM items have gone towards other CM items. I've never had to buy gear because I can make my own.

 

But on that note, I completely agree with you on FIFA. I play that game too, but I strictly stick to Career mode. I won't touch the Ultimate Team stuff because it's so blatantly P2W. I didn't even know you could grind for coins. On the plus side, I recently got Battlefront 2 and it appears the last update removed any traces of the original P2W mechanics from it.

 

Agreed.

 

I guess we have to give him credit though for admitting it was deliberately provocative and dramatic.

 

Not that a lot of us did not already see it this way... but I do applaud an OP who will come clean about it.

 

The most interesting part of this topic to me is that there is a similar thread over in the PvP forum.. and given this topic appears to be of most concern to PvPers... that thread is kind of weak in discussion activity compared to this one. Not sure what to interpret from that. I would have expected the thread in PvP forum to have a lot more energy given how much objection there seems to be from some PvPers about the coming gear. Maybe the PvPers are more inclined to wait until they have specfics, rather then jump the shark and go full "warparty" ahead of any details.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Andryah

[mhobin]

Agreed.

 

I guess we have to give him credit though for admitting it was deliberately provocative and dramatic.

 

Not that a lot of us did not already see it this way... but I do applaud an OP who will come clean about it.

 

The most interesting part of this topic to me is that there is a similar thread over in the PvP forum.. and given this topic appears to be of most concern to PvPers... that thread is kind of weak in discussion activity compared to this one. Not sure what to interpret from that. I would have expected the thread in PvP forum to have a lot more energy given how much objection there seems to be from some PvPers about the coming gear. Maybe the PvPers are more inclined to wait until they have specfics, rather then jump the shark and go full "warparty" ahead of any details.

 

Maybe the PvP community has been beaten into submission at this point. The whole section is not really active anymore. Not like it once was. The only place on the forum that gets high levels of participation is the general section.

 

At this point the entire “PvP” community is a pretty small and apathetic group.

[Lhancelot]

But... this is all guesses. 100% guesses. And it is sad to me that so many people are here guessing and wildly speculating rather than just playing and enjoying the game and not trying to worry so much about things that not only haven't happened yet, but haven't really been explained or clarified from the developers.

 

This is why I haven't even added anything to this entire thread hardly. IRL I have a ideology I follow and that is the simple notion of not crossing bridges before I get to them. I apply it here, too. I refuse to get emotionally involved on the forums here over things that haven't even been added to the game yet!

 

lol I like to theorycraft with people but this is a dumb thread. The title is wrong, it's misleading, and the arguments over what is or what is not P2W doesn't matter because they haven't done anything to the game yet for the topic to even be discussed. The forums are often times just irrelevant interactions between us humans and should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

I want to miss SWTOR, but things like this remind me why I don't. And, I guess if I truly feel that way I should stop responding to these threads. So with that, I will wish you all the best of luck and hope that you get everything you want from the game, but most of all that you just enjoy it and each other.

 

Peace!

 

PennyAnn, your opinion is well-regarded amongst us forumquesters. Don't let this petty thread dissuade you from wanting to be a part of the game and it's community. Sometimes you got to pick your battles, and this is one of those threads that it's best to just avoid.

 

I like forum drama sometimes, but really see no fun to be had in this thread. It's laced with toxicity, and the fact is the accusations of the game turning to P2W are totally unfounded. If others are enjoying the banter, I see it as fine for them to engage within the thread but personally I stay out of threads that offer nothing to learn or that simply are not entertaining to me.

 

I just think we shouldn't let what others converse about sully how we feel about the game, I mean the forums is such a minute facet of this game as a whole. I guess that's my point. BTW, We lose too much with you not wanting to add your voice on the forums.

[Lhancelot]

Maybe the PvP community has been beaten into submission at this point. The whole section is not really active anymore. Not like it once was. The only place on the forum that gets high levels of participation is the general section.

 

At this point the entire “PvP” community is a pretty small and apathetic group.

 

In the past we used to have a bit of drama, there was competitive banter between guilds, players etc. I think a lot of that has died down due to heavier moderation now, and just a lack of actual PVP guilds that exist.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Maybe the PvP community has been beaten into submission at this point. The whole section is not really active anymore. Not like it once was. The only place on the forum that gets high levels of participation is the general section.

 

At this point the entire “PvP” community is a pretty small and apathetic group.

 

Gen Discussion is where you go for drama and the best forum-pvp.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[mhobin]

Gen Discussion is where you go for drama and the best forum-pvp.

 

Very true, general is where you will find the true defenders. The PvP section is where you can get you pessimistic rants parroted back at you. Forum PvP at its best happens here.

[aerockyul]

The most interesting part of this topic to me is that there is a similar thread over in the PvP forum.. and given this topic appears to be of most concern to PvPers... that thread is kind of weak in discussion activity compared to this one. Not sure what to interpret from that. I would have expected the thread in PvP forum to have a lot more energy given how much objection there seems to be from some PvPers about the coming gear. Maybe the PvPers are more inclined to wait until they have specfics, rather then jump the shark and go full "warparty" ahead of any details.

 

Maybe I and some other PvP posters in these forums overestimate the number of PvPers who want a completely level playing field regarding gear. Maybe that's why there's a little more silence on it from that perspective...

I'd like to think real PvPers want gear to be a non-factor and be more or completely skill-based, but considering the number of people in every single area of the game that want an easy path to "victory" and gear offers that in most cases, maybe it's ridiculous to think somehow PvPers wouldn't do the same thing or secretly hope for a gear advantage in this meta lest they become the "farmed" and not "farmer"

 

I'll even cop to it as a healer in PvP. I want to not get globaled by a good DPS premade in full gear when I have a team that doesn't know or care how to protect their healer, so I only bring my most highly geared healer to play for the majority of times hoping the other dps will be bad (so it's like they're wailing away at an HP fountain, doing no significant damage) and, also, the majority of times that I will be ignored by my own team (I only pug, I know that's part of my problem). I might still get globaled by an actual good DPS but I'm certainly not in the mood to make it as easy as possible for that player. For me high gear is about mitigation of factors out of my control more than wanting any advantage over anyone else.

[PennyAnn]

Thanks to all for your kind words. I will not derail the thread any more by making this about me and my participation here, but I did want to at least let you know that I appreciate your sentiments and that they mean a lot to me. It lets me know that the way that I strive to post and participate here has mostly been successful, and I'm glad for that.

 

But back to the topic at hand: I know that the PvP community has fought (as Trixxie's post mentions) for bolster to remain higher than gear level and that those requests have not been met. I would tell you that like any fight that is worth fighting, if it is a struggle then that just means you have to be even more persistent (and kind, rational, providing facts and calm reasoned arguments in favor of this change) to the studio to prove your case until they at least address specifically why they cannot or will not make that change. The more persistent you are (and by persistent, I do not mean that you should hassle them), but if you stick with rational arguments and great suggestions they will hear you, and you may eventually win them over.

 

People who post here that I can point to for what I mean are Jerba and his fantastic feedback on the PTS threads now that they've gone back to using it. And UlaVii's crusade for guild management tools, guild member increases, etc. is another example. There are many others, and I do not mean to not include Trixxie here also, who has always been an advocate for PvP matters... I only would say that you tend to get down on the studio sometimes and "go negative". I understand this impulse, as it exists in all of us... but the other two I mention here always seem to keep their cool (at least in my experience, though no one is perfect). I think that approach is one that is much more likely to be successful. And, you're going to have to pick your battles. If you're someone who is coming after them about every little thing you'll become like the gnat at the picnic, and either be swatted away or ignored.

 

Further, now that they are utilizing the PTS more, you should ALL be there and make yourselves known to the developers. Be play testing the PvP stuff there with them every single time it comes up. Become a known entity to them and send them private messages once in awhile to alert them to longer threads with ideas you've posted where there is good discussion, etc.

 

I really believe that their use of the PTS and their willingness to listen to feedback from those sessions is at an all-time high (even though it could still be improved). Now is the time to put yourself out there in front of them and make your voice heard. You may find me doing the same once they start working on Guild/Conquest stuff coming up this fall. Why am I not doing that now? Because I know it is of no use at the moment to do so. The thing about this studio is that they have super tunnel vision. If they aren't working on it right now, this second, to go into the game in the very next patch, they won't discuss it or even think too hard about it.

 

That's another reason I say that this thread is a little too "cart before the horse", because they probably don't even have enough details to give us right now, which is why they haven't. We have no idea how it is going to work, whether or not there will be set bonuses, where we will get the schematics and materials, and a whole host of other things about the new tier. And you know what? They may not have the answers to these things yet, either!

 

So sure, discuss it. Just quit doing so with so much hyperbole (which comes mainly from making declarative statements about something you can't possibly know), and make it a more rational discussion. You'll more likely earn the ear/attention of the developers, even if they don't respond in a thread or talk about it yet (because again, they don't do that this far in advance when they have other irons in the fire). But more importantly, you'll be less likely to run afoul of people who prefer logical, adult conversations over stabs in the dark and wild speculating about how the game is ruined.

 

We can disagree, and hopefully do so while still being kind to each other. We definitely do not agree about what defines "Pay to Win", but that doesn't mean I think you are a moron who does not deserve to express their concerns over this new tier of gear. I hope that nothing that I have said has indicated that to you, but rather encouraged you to take a less sensational approach in expressing those concerns.

 

Bottom line/final point: I still think we won't know how valid any of them are without information beyond "a new tier of gear is coming, it will be crafted, and one of the places you'll likely find schematics is in MM operations". That is literally everything they have said about this, and I think it is not nearly enough information to have any idea what the final system will look like. I think making suggestions about including other places to find schematics/materials and where you think those should be is totally appropriate. Declaring the entire game going "P2W" however, will likely just get you bypassed for any serious consideration, thus I suggest you argue the point from a stronger position (even given what little we know so far).

 

It's not too early to make suggestions to how it should work. It is definitely too early to declare it "broken" or "bad for the game" or even "P2W", regardless of your definition of that last one.

 

.

Edited September 13, 2018 by PennyAnn

[Rion_Starkiller]

So someone resurrected this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9647632#post9647632 mentioning mastercrafting, which got me thinking. So I want to hijack this thread for watercooler talk since everyone has seemed to mellow out.

 

• Are we going to get master craft mk-4 left side?
  
• Will schematics drop in NiM ops, but the rare mats drop from conquests and ranked? (and does that make it P2W? )
  
• I've heard rumors months ago of new setpiece bonuses, will this be the new T5 stuff? (you'll need to google this as I don't want to get temp banned)
  
• Smarty has a tab on his spreadsheet for 254 gear. Is he precognizant? Or speculating? Or a dev?https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tTZEODvA4-N_wLXlizG654Ii1z9gI88HavBk1WbTsk0/edit#gid=1340830784
  

Edited September 13, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller