Upcoming Matchmaking Changes

[TrixxieTriss]

You might not like tanks and healers, but the point is this match was stacked AGAINST my team, who were 6 dps, my tank, and 1 heal, and we still won.

 

Thus, maybe healer stacking is not the problem you imply it is.

 

Aka: if you want a format where damage is king, go do arenas. warzones are about objectives and playing smart as much as killing, and thus, my role should be able to queue just as easily as anyone else.

 

Not when it’s a big parsing exercise cause you have dumb teams who don’t know what objectives are anymore. If they can’t pound on something and kill it... then it’s too hard.

Sadly, that’s what the game has deteriorated into and we are left with a system that can’t handle 2 healers and a tank

Edited June 7, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[MuskyBoy]

You might not like tanks and healers, but the point is this match was stacked AGAINST my team, who were 6 dps, my tank, and 1 heal, and we still won.

 

Thus, maybe healer stacking is not the problem you imply it is.

 

Aka: if you want a format where damage is king, go do arenas. warzones are about objectives and playing smart as much as killing, and thus, my role should be able to queue just as easily as anyone else.

 

It's called PVP, you fight other players to gain control of the objective (literally). If players cannot die or the speed at which players die is so slow that the respawn is back before the next player dies, then it is flawed. If objectives are all that matter why are we all here? Objectives without killing each other is called PVE. My best argument for this is how many players can honestly say they enjoy guarding a node for 10 minutes and never get attacked? How many players enjoy getting a node on Odessen and have no one come and try and take it from them? You are playing objectives, yet is this enjoyable? For most the answer is no.

Edited June 7, 2018 by MuskyBoy

[KendraP]

It's called PVP, you fight other players to gain control of the objective (literally). If players cannot die or the speed at which players die is so slow that the respawn is back before the next player dies, then it is flawed. If objectives are all that matter why are we all here? Objectives without killing each other is called PVE. My best argument for this is how many players can honestly say they enjoy guarding a node for 10 minutes and never get attacked? How many players enjoy getting a node on Odessen and have no one come and try and take it from them? You are playing objectives, yet is this enjoyable? For most the answer is no.

 

If you cannot kill a team in a warzone before they have time to respawn, especially with the matchmaking considerations limiting tanks and healers to 2 each per team, you need to find a new strategy.

 

If 1 tank and 1 healer can be killed by 2 dps in an arena, it logically follows that 2 tanks and 2 healers should be able to be killed by 4 dps. If your exceptional dps is not exceptional enoigh for this task, or not exceptional enough to do it quickly or efficiently, maybe farming mid is not a strategy that will work for you.

 

No one enjoys guarding a node for 10 minutes but it is, and will remain, a vital part of objective based pvp. I volunteer to guard almost every time i go dps, and have done it when the enemy dps pressure is insufficient to require a tank. In odessen, i grab nodes and solo guard with no one coming all the time. These are sacrifices you make in objective based pvp for the greater good of your team and to see the final green victory sign.

 

PvE and PvP differ in that, for PvE your enemy is an AI, a computer. The strategy once known to you is unlikely to change dramatically or suddenly, and certainly not without warning.

 

Objective based PvP is different. Your opponents are people - players who can think creatively and alter their strategy or tactics to give themselves the best chance at winning. It takes advantage of people's natural competitiveness and desire to ultimately come out ahead.

 

I argue, therefore, that even in an incredibly unlikely hypothetical match where no one dies on either team, pve and objective based pvp are fundamentally different.

 

Again, objective based pvp is not designed for blindly zerging number farmers. If you kill someone 15 times and still lose, you still lost. You can say farmed, but if you were really farming so well, why couldnt you also be bothered to go farm at an objective you have a chance of capping? If you need 8 players to "farm" 4 of my guys, that is hardly an issue with my tank or healer.

[Vissionary]

It's called PVP, you fight other players to gain control of the objective (literally). If players cannot die or the speed at which players die is so slow that the respawn is back before the next player dies, then it is flawed.

 

I am sorry that that mean old tank and healer made you feel bad about your ability to DPS but no bast**d ever won a war by dying for his team ... and frankly it's my job to make sure my boys & girls live long healthy lives while they truck your team, and son I am very good at my job so why you want to harsh my vibe?

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I do think they will be addressing the premade situation with limiting them to 1 healer and 1 tank only. The queue will then try and put one healer and one tank on the other team.

I know this won’t eliminate the advantage of voice chat, but good premades rarely use voice chat for tactics. At least all of the pvp guilds I’ve been with over the year haven’t (except ranked). Most of the time we were talking crap to each other or joking around.

 

The real advantage of the good premade is the player skill and their ability to know what is needed from them and what their team mates will be doing. The more you play with someone, the better you get at reading what they will do in x situation.

 

I’ve been in lots of de facto premades when we weren’t even grouped or on voice chat. We just happened to pop together a lot, so we all got to know each other.

People learning or in mediocre premades will use voice to help with tactics and calls. Is that a problem, sure, it can be against full pug teams of equal or lower skill (higher skill will have no problem). The only way that will ever be fixed is to remove premades entirely, but that won’t remove the de facto premades that will still pop occasionally.

 

For better or worse, Bioware have decided not to split premades completely from pugs. What they have said is they will try and match up equally skilled people. So if there are 2 premades in the queue, there is a very good possibility they will be put against each other, atleast that’s what I’ve picked up from all the posts Eric has made.

He also said that premade skill lvl will be rated by their highest player and not the average of the team. That means that if they have a team of noobs, they will be rated as noobs. If they have a team of 1 good player and 3 noobs, they will all be rated as good even though 3 aren’t. Eric also said that a good premade will likely get less skilled pugs on their team unless the queue has enough good players so the other team can have equally good players.

 

I think what you will see (unless queue numbers are low), is premades with pugs vs premades with pugs. If there aren’t enough premades in the queue, I think the queue will end up putting more good players on the pug team than the premade team because the best premade player will make the rest of his premade the same skill lvl as them. So essentially the system will read all 4 players as the same and try to match appropriately. What will theoretically happen in that case is you will have 4 pugs at the same skill lvl as the best person in the premade, even if 3 of the premade are noobs.

The only time this won’t happen is if all the premade are close to the same lvl in skill. In those situations, the pug guys will also be at a similar skill lvl.

 

Yes they will have a disadvantage, but it won’t be anywhere near as bad as it is now (that’s theoretically of course)

As long as the match making really does work as they intend, I think premades will become less of a problem than they are now.

 

 

It's definitely a good thing and a move in the right direction. I've been on premades myself [i quece solo 90% of the time tho], but usually just like 1 or 2 other people I know and not stacked for optimization, not like a merc, a sniper and a skank, just whatever they happen to be playing. If I can duo with a healer, I'll jump at that cuz having no heals and no healer on your team sucks. I've never used voice chat 1 time in PVP [used it in progression raiding of course], makes all the difference. The response time a lot factor makes it very advantageous.

 

I agree this will definitely put a dent in pre-made dominance effects. This change really only hurts premades that are trying to ensure a trinity composition +1 H/T, a composition that is intended to have an advantage over others.

 

Anyway you cut it, this is a good thing for PVP and ups the anti on the skill factor, which I think is what most fair-minded PVPers are looking for.

Edited June 7, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[VaeVictis]

Thus, maybe healer stacking is not the problem you imply it is.

 

Being a really good healer who routinely heals, without Guard, for 2-4x your average pugger I'm guessing this matchmaking is going to work in my favor. You tell me the other side will never have more than one healer, well then, my team should almost always have more HPS.

 

On the other hand, my crew has been queuing four DPS for a few months now...we went 16-2 last night. Anecdotally I'd say about half our matches are no heals for our side.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

And yet again most players died only once or twice which just reinforces everything I have said about healers and tanks causing stalemates by making TTK even longer. MY ISSUE IS PLAYERS AREN"T DYING IN PVP. Also 3 sorc heals under 2 mill hardly represents what I call healers, that's about the total healing of 1 competent healer.

 

That was an extreme circumstance by the look of the screenshot and not what normally you see, at least not on Star Forge. I'll admit the numbers were crazy insane, but I think it was an exception not the rule.

 

That said though, respectfully, I don't know where you are playing but, If most of the time people aren't dieing in the WZs you're playing in, than those are some terrible DPS. I'm only saying that in the event that what you are saying is true and that's actually the norm, which I can't imagine it is even remotely on the regular.

 

If killing people to that degree[ as in not killing/stalmates] was a chronic problem, I would have absolutely no desire to PVP whatsoever. If I can't kill anyone I can't have fun. Sure, there are exceptions where it does play out like that, but those are just that, exceptions. I can live with exceptions, I couldn't live with chronic stalemates and my sabers never getting any blood on em. What the hell would be the point that?

 

I kill people all the time and I get my *** lite up all the time.

 

The irony is you go from saying no ones dieing to the healers suck, if the healers sucked people should be dieing and if the healers suck and people aren't dieing that would be because the DPS sucks.

 

The problem isn't with the Tanks or the healers. They have nothing to do with it. it's because of all the healing DPS are doing which is absolutely rediculous now.

 

I see DPS sorcs doing 1 mill + heals

I see Juggs doing 700k-800k heals

I see DPS Operatives doing 500k-700K + heals

I see friggen Snipers doing 500K+ heals [some 'pure DPS class'].

I'm not even going to bother with Mercs, we all know how broken they are.

 

DPS with more than 1 life should never be under any circumstances.

 

I don't mind the DPS operatives because they are the only DPS with heals that has to choose to use a GCD between healing or damage. ALL DPS specs with heals should have to do that. All DPS specs with heals should have to choose to use a GCD to heal or damage [obviously in the case of HoTs only on the initial application of the HoT]. If the only way to gain heals were from a healer, that would make their jobs much harder and it would make them far more important. Furthermore, the TTK issues would lesson greatly.

 

I'm not suggesting that all DPS specs should lose all their heals,. I think if all DPS specs with heals had to chose to use the GCD for either heals or damage like operatives, that would alleviate a good portion of the overhealing that's going in many cases. It would provide a natural 'checks and balance' in essense. You should never be able to heal and do damage at the same time as a DPS. Never. [Again HOTs being the exception, but should be effected on the application GCD].When was the last time you saw someone stitching a wound up while they were also firing an assault rifle [or any other firearm or melee weapon for that matter]?

 

Now we have Juggs, doing 22k impales, with two life bars while at the same time having a Taunt effect up and Guarding the healer next to him. [That's just an example, I'm not pointing out Juggs specifically]

 

Problem isn't with healers and tanks or guards, they're working as they should be, problem is all the "DPS" with not DPS role abilities.

 

Trust me when I say you don't need, self healing, off healing, gaurding, taunting, perma-stealth, cleanses, or stealth rez's to do DPS. - I've been doing it for the last 6 years. It's totally doable. - I'm not suggesting that anyone should lose these abilities either [perma-stealth really shouldn't be on the list tho because that is a class function], but they absolutely should be taken into account when considering class balance because if you don't consider it in class balance in addition to anything else a given spec brings to the table what you endup with is 5.x. And we've all seen how great class balance has been working out in 5.x.

 

Heals and Tanks are support classes and they are doing what they are suppose to be doing. The only time that becomes an issue is when the amount on one side is not matched on the other. Ergo, matchmaking.

Enough with the extra lives and using three different 'role' abilities all at the same time as a non support class. You don't address that, it doesn't matter what else you do.

Edited June 7, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[KendraP]

Being a really good healer who routinely heals, without Guard, for 2-4x your average pugger I'm guessing this matchmaking is going to work in my favor. You tell me the other side will never have more than one healer, well then, my team should almost always have more HPS.

 

On the other hand, my crew has been queuing four DPS for a few months now...we went 16-2 last night. Anecdotally I'd say about half our matches are no heals for our side.

 

The person i am arguing with here seems to he implying that the only way to win objective based pvp should be to outkill the other team.

 

I said out strategize and he started screaming about heal stacking, so i linked a match where we won despite having the healer stacking work against us.

 

Thus considering that sentence in isolation from the surrounding argument is moot or out of context.

Edited June 7, 2018 by KendraP

[krosswong]

And yet again most players died only once or twice which just reinforces everything I have said about healers and tanks causing stalemates by making TTK even longer. MY ISSUE IS PLAYERS AREN"T DYING IN PVP. Also 3 sorc heals under 2 mill hardly represents what I call healers, that's about the total healing of 1 competent healer.

 

oh boy, you've been running your mouth for three pages complaining about no one dying in pvp and it's been all anecdotal. How about you post some screen shots of what you feel are bad pvp matches where no one dies. That way the rest of us can judge whether it's a stacked healer problem or just a someone doesn't know what they're doing problem. I'm guessing it's the latter.

[kissingaiur]

 

I see DPS sorcs doing 1 mill + heals

I see Juggs doing 700k-800k heals

I see DPS Operatives doing 500k-700K + heals

I see friggen Snipers doing 500K+ heals [some 'pure DPS class'].

I'm not even going to bother with Mercs, we all know how broken they are.

 

 

This is the most pointless information. Tracking damage and healing is meaningless with HPS/DPS values, it has literally no context. You do realize in a long pvp match a "pure dps" AP PT could kolto enough to be over 1mil healing too right? It means nothing. Healing is just part of their dcds doesn't mean we should all cry that AP PTs are overpowered.

 

If you think DPS sorc's healing is overpowered, go into a reg and spam dark heal see how worthless it is. Another sub-par dps class that they you just throwing under a bus when it means absolutely nothing.

 

As a mara player you should really pay attention how much **** you are mitigating with your undying, resist with maddash etc. If those numbers didn't just go into the void, you could clearly see that a mara could easily mitigate enough damage to have more than one life.

Edited June 7, 2018 by kissingaiur

[Lhancelot]

If you think DPS sorc's healing is overpowered, go into a reg and spam dark heal see how worthless it is. Another sub-par dps class that they you just throwing under a bus when it means absolutely nothing.

 

I have spammed dark heals on my dps sorc to try to save someone, and what happens every time is the guy getting focused dies anyway and I just end up with zero power left. It really is a useless heal, and the time you spend using it would be better doing other things. They could remove dark heals and it wouldn't be missed one bit, in fact they ought to trade it for burst and dots that actually matter for the DPS sorcs.

[kissingaiur]

I have spammed dark heals on my dps sorc to try to save someone, and what happens every time is the guy getting focused dies anyway and I just end up with zero power left. It really is a useless heal, and the time you spend using it would be better doing other things. They could remove dark heals and it wouldn't be missed one bit, in fact they ought to trade it for burst and dots that actually matter for the DPS sorcs.

 

Yup, sorc off heals are barely worth it, if at all. They cost so much force too. Players just see the healing numbers and get upset but they don't realize how much of an investment it is to even cast out an offheal. You might as well just DPS.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

This is the most pointless information. Tracking damage and healing is meaningless with HPS/DPS values, it has literally no context. You do realize in a long pvp match a "pure dps" AP PT could kolto enough to be over 1mil healing too right? It means nothing. Healing is just part of their dcds doesn't mean we should all cry that AP PTs are overpowered.

 

If you think DPS sorc's healing is overpowered, go into a reg and spam dark heal see how worthless it is. Another sub-par dps class that they you just throwing under a bus when it means absolutely nothing.

 

As a mara player you should really pay attention how much **** you are mitigating with your undying, resist with maddash etc. If those numbers didn't just go into the void, you could clearly see that a mara could easily mitigate enough damage to have more than one life.

 

DPS should not be healing those kinds of numbers for any reason. You can say what you like about heals vs. DCDs, it's asanine argument to make that DCDs are better at mitigating damage than heals. Heals are not for mitigating damage at all. They are for returning the health you lost already. DCDs are defensive, heals are recuperative.

 

Try playing a Mara on a team with no heals and say that's just as good as DPS specs healing 700k-1mill.

 

Survivability is a two part equation. DCDS/Heals. You don't have heals are limited heals, you are missing half the equation.

 

I don't need anyone tell me about how DCDs work and what Maras can do. That said, anyone who says that heals don't matter in PVP are people trying to offset the fact that they are DPS who are doing stupid amounts of heals and they don't want that taken into account when considering class balance.

 

My objection was not in the context of "Yeah I just think DPS heals are bad and should get nerfed" I didn't say that, what I was speaking to was people who are ************ about heals and tanks being too strong in PVP and my point was if you didn't have DPS doing stupidly ludicrous amounts of healing/ having extra lives, it would be a very different picture.

 

Anyone who wants to make the claim that Marauders on teams with no healers facing the standard 19 mercs and snipers with their 2 healers and tanks are at no disadvantage by the lack of heals is not someone who's opinion is worth much because it's askewed by not wanting to loss heals or DPS or see their favored class trimmed.

 

It's funny, all the people who are playing these DPS with stupid amount of heals keep on wanting to make the DCD/Healing argument to make it like heals are that important or influencing, well maybe that's the way it looks when you have heals, but when you don't have them, they're pretty damn important.

 

4 second DCDs on three minute cooldowns, or an extra life every 1:15 seconds. I'll trade you.

 

Those 4 seconds are great, the following 2 minutes and 56 seconds with no heals at all, not so great.

 

I am not by any means downplaying the effectiveness of the DCDs, there are excellent but they are also fleeting as hell and can't come even close to covering for even half a match. If you're in a match that say lasts 8 minutes and 45 seconds you are looking at a downtime of DCDs of about 7 and half minutes which is the same as to say most of that match, with no heals to cover that down time, that's where it can be problematic. DCDs that are on cooldown suck for everyone.

 

 

Overpowered is a wrongful conotation that implies that I think they should be nerfed and I never said that, in fact I said they shouldn't and sorcs are the last class in the world that I would say should have their self heals nipped. I firmly believe that DPS sorcs should have the best self heals of any dps spec. There is a difference between off heals and self heals. Off heals suck for them,self heals is something else. If the heals these classes are doing are so no effecting I have to ask myself why they are spending so much time using them if they really don't matter all that much.

 

When I spoke about my feeling that I think that all DPS specs who are healing should be like Operatives in that they should have to choose whether to use that GCD for healing or for damage, If i didn't say in that post,I said it in another about that idea and in that I said I think that Sorc DPS should be the only DPS specs with healing that shouldn't apply to, they alone should be able to do both on the same GCD. If I didn't include it in the one you read, that was my bad. Sorcs shoudn't have that limitation.

 

Not being able to examine the context of the heals being done means there is no way to determine eHP, you'd need a parsing program for that if you wanted an accurate picture because the one you get on the WZ results only accounts for your last combat state in the match, not the entire match, same with DPS, which is what I was talking about in the other string that you don't want to acknowledge as valuable information that parsing programs can provide. There is no difference between the information they gather either in PVE or PVP its the same exact thing.

 

And not to be nitpicky here but, there is no such thing as a 'pure DPS' A PT and no, I don't think they should be nerfed cuz of healing, they need an additional DCD added. Something along the lines of Saber ward as it's a melee spec.

 

If what you said is your genuine opinion, I can respect that, and you are certainly entitled to that perspective, it is, however not one I share. I am always open to agreeing to disagree. I am not unsympathetic of the needs of other classes simply because I don't play them.

Edited June 7, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Yup, sorc off heals are barely worth it, if at all. They cost so much force too. Players just see the healing numbers and get upset but they don't realize how much of an investment it is to even cast out an offheal. You might as well just DPS.

 

I said this when I responded to your other post, yeah, their off healing really isn't worth it for them, too much resources for not enough heal. Their self healing isn't bad though, plus the resources involved are at least benefitting the sorc themselves so that perhaps makes the resource expenditures more worth while.

 

It's always worth saving your own ***, other's well, if things are going good fine, if not, well, I'll tell your wife you loved her =p

 

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but it does seem like Sorcs are faring somewhat better lately, not great of course, but a bit. Maybe it's just the better ones I'm seeing because their performance seems better than what you might normally gauge them at, that's possible, sure. Plus with guards being present that obviously doesn't give a fair picture of what a sorc's experience is when not guarded, so that could be a part of what I am seeing too of course. If anything they should up Sorc DPS heals a bit. They should be tops at it among the DPS specs.

Edited June 7, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[MuskyBoy]

oh boy, you've been running your mouth for three pages complaining about no one dying in pvp and it's been all anecdotal. How about you post some screen shots of what you feel are bad pvp matches where no one dies. That way the rest of us can judge whether it's a stacked healer problem or just a someone doesn't know what they're doing problem. I'm guessing it's the latter.

 

There is nothing anecdotal about it. The amount of DCD's in the game have increased over time making TTK longer. When you amplify that effect with groups who bring multiple tanks and healers to a wz then yes no one is dying.

[Vissionary]

There is nothing anecdotal about it. The amount of DCD's in the game have increased over time making TTK longer. When you amplify that effect with groups who bring multiple tanks and healers to a wz then yes no one is dying.

 

an·ec·do·tal

ˌanəkˈdōdl/

adjective

 

adjective: anecdotal

(of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

 

"while there was much anecdotal evidence there was little hard fact"

 

Still waiting on that screenshot friend ...

[MuskyBoy]

an·ec·do·tal

ˌanəkˈdōdl/

adjective

 

adjective: anecdotal

(of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

 

"while there was much anecdotal evidence there was little hard fact"

 

Still waiting on that screenshot friend ...

 

There is nothing anecdotal about increasing DCD's/escapes will increase the survivability this is directly correlated to TTK so please stop coming off moronic. Having healers/tanks amplifies this effect. P.S. I don't screenshot since this is the reason I stopped Pvping.

[TrixxieTriss]

Yup, sorc off heals are barely worth it, if at all. They cost so much force too. Players just see the healing numbers and get upset but they don't realize how much of an investment it is to even cast out an offheal. You might as well just DPS.

 

This is my feeling as well, Sorc off healing is a joke and anyone who thinks it’s a problem needs to go play a dps Sorc and try being competitive while off healing. It might be good in Operations, but it’s a totally different scenario in pvp. Off healing uses up forc really fast.

 

Dark Heal – Heals a friendly target for X-X health.

Range: 30m, Activation: 1.5s, Force: 50.... (Uses heaps of Force and you need to stop to cast)

 

Resurgence – Immediately heals the target for X-X, plus an additional X over 9 seconds.

Range: 30m, Force: 27, Cooldown: 6s... (might seem small, but do that every 6 secs and you’ve no force left to do any dps)

 

The only thing DPS Sorcs should be healing is themselves. I mained a Sorc for 5 1/2 years and I rarely try to off heal because it uses way to much force. The only time I will attempt it is on a Ball Carrier in Hutt Ball (every little bit helps to get them to the line).

 

I always get great healing stats on the scoreboard, but the healing is all on me. You can’t do dps if your dead every min and those heals mostly come from Natural Preservation which can’t be used on anyone else.

 

Unnatural Preservation – Immediately restores X-X health to you. Cannot be used on others.

Cooldown: 30s... this is a self heal only

 

People need to understand that Sorcs DPS is weak. We spend most of our time trying to stay alive because our dps isn’t enough to kill anything. That is why good dps sorcs have such high healing and don’t die.

 

Also with the reduced dps, taking extra dps utilities at the expense of survivability ones is nearly pointless because you can’t stay alive long enough to take advantage of them. I find if I take more survivability ones, I stay alive longer and do more dps because of it.

 

Utilities-

Empty Body - Increases all healing received by 5%. Does not affect stolen life. (Healing on self only)

 

Dark Resilienc -snip, Additionally increases the healing done by Unnatural Preservation by 30%. (Self heal ability)

 

Unnatural Vigor - Unnatural Preservation increases your damage reduction by 15% for 6 seconds. Additionally, reduces the cooldown of Unnatural Preservation by 5 seconds. (Self heal ability)

 

Unnatural Preservstion and these utilities is why Sorcs look like they have great off healing when you look at the scoreboard. But the reality is they can only be cast on the Sorc and no one else.

 

I’d be more than happy if they locked all my potential off healing abilities to only self heal. It makes zero difference to me or most dps Sorc players.

Just as long as they don’t decide to nerf them unless they give Lightning a big boost to dps output.

 

Edit : let me add one thing. When you see Lightning Sorcs with really big dps numbers, you will rarely see them with big healing numbers.

Why? Because people left the Sorc alone all match to free cast and they didn’t need to do any self healing. They had maximum up time were left to do full rotations or spam FS.

If the Sorc is specd madness, they will have been dropping AOEs all match and people were standing in it. Plus they can dot spam.

If the Sorc is specd Lightning, they were using a lot of force storm to get fluff those numbers through AOE and people literally stand in it instead of getting out of it Yes, chain Lightning also does AOE damage, but you get higher numbers spam fluff damage than actually trying to do real damage to single targets. (You know dps score board numbers are everything, not actually doing your job and kill things )

Edited June 8, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[KendraP]

There is nothing anecdotal about increasing DCD's/escapes will increase the survivability this is directly correlated to TTK so please stop coming off moronic. Having healers/tanks amplifies this effect. P.S. I don't screenshot since this is the reason I stopped Pvping.

 

so how many tanks and heals are ok on a team? or should we all run 8 dps teams?

[MuskyBoy]

so how many tanks and heals are ok on a team? or should we all run 8 dps teams?

 

IMO most players should be dying 5-6 times (with heals/tanks on each team) per wz and good to very good players dying between 0-3 times (in the screenshots you have linked me most are in the 0-3 range). I just do not see how in the current meta that anyone needs to any more then 3 of tanks/heals. It's amazing that the class (VG/PT dps) who has received the least amount of help since 2.0 defensively is so underpowered without support. Perhaps, just perhaps it is other classes have been given too much.

Edited June 8, 2018 by MuskyBoy

[KendraP]

IMO most players should be dying 5-6 times (with heals/tanks on each team) per wz and good to very good players dying between 0-3 times (in the screenshots you have linked me most are in the 0-3 range). I just do not see how in the current meta that anyone needs to any more then 3 of tanks/heals. It's amazing that the class (VG/PT dps) who has received the least amount of help since 2.0 defensively is so underpowered without support. Perhaps, just perhaps it is other classes have been given too much.

 

the screenshots i have provided are of matches that were generally premade vs premade, as i don't see the point sharing rofl stomping sessions. is this 3 per 16 man or 3 per 8? if 3 per 8 that my preferred setup, 4 per 8 being what bioware is calling "ideal."

 

If you say there is a bit of a chasm between current good classes DCD wise and current terrible classes DCD wise, then i agree. This is a question for Musco and co: should dps be as survivable as sniper and merc, or like pt and sorc? or maybe something like guardian, somewhere in the middle, melts under focus, but decent 1v1.

 

my personal opinion is that i don't care how many people die in an objective based match. That's not the point: the point of objective based play is to win by doing the objectives; deaths happen as a side effect of players needing to cap the same nodes.

[kissingaiur]

Heals are not for mitigating damage at all. They are for returning the health you lost already.

 

You have the wrong way of looking at defensives. Heals are a DCD for DPS. Is kolto a DCD? Yes. Is Sorcs unnatural preservation a DCD? Yes. If you popped undying and got hit by heat seekered and took 1%. How is that difference from a sorc being hit with a heat seeker then popping unnatural preservation to completely remove that damage done to them by the heat seeker? There is little difference between these two methods. The only small difference is, one is proactive, you have to pop it before the damage to remove it and the other is reactive, recovering health back after the fact. In reality both are doing the SAME thing, removing damage.

 

You still have no comprehension on how much mara DCDs actually mitigate JUST because the game doesn’t track the numbers on a scoreboard. You are oppressed with the idea that heals are the best defensive tool for forget all the ways you are absorbing and mitigating throughout the game by popping things like undying, RA, or mad dashing heat seekers.

 

This is also not even mentioning the fact that mitigation dcds scale with the number of people attacking you while healing dcds don’t. That’s why mit always wins out and things like kolto for pts continues to be bad.

 

Your way of thinking is the definition of what is wrong with SWTOR. You play one of the most tankest DPS classes in the game and complain that you need heals as well. That god forbid, when you don’t have a healer on your team you die. Well so does every other dps class with no healer. The game is designed around healers, you are SUPPOSED TO DIE WHEN YOU HAVE NONE. That's a fact.

 

You really need to go educate your self by playing other dps classes in regs other than mara. Maybe then youll understand how good you have it. Check your privilege.

Edited June 8, 2018 by kissingaiur

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

You have the wrong way of looking at defensives. Heals are a DCD for DPS. Is kolto a DCD? Yes. Is Sorcs unnatural preservation a DCD? Yes. If you popped undying and got hit by heat seekered and took 1%. How is that difference from a sorc being hit with a heat seeker then popping unnatural preservation to completely remove that damage done to them by the heat seeker? There is little difference between these two methods. The only small difference is, one is proactive, you have to pop it before the damage to remove it and the other is reactive, recovering health back after the fact. In reality both are doing the SAME thing, removing damage.

 

You still have no comprehension on how much mara DCDs actually mitigate JUST because the game doesn’t track the numbers on a scoreboard. You are oppressed with the idea that heals are the best defensive tool for forget all the ways you are absorbing and mitigating throughout the game by popping things like undying, RA, or mad dashing heat seekers.

 

This is also not even mentioning the fact that mitigation dcds scale with the number of people attacking you while healing dcds don’t. That’s why mit always wins out and things like kolto for pts continues to be bad.

 

Your way of thinking is the definition of what is wrong with SWTOR. You play one of the most tankest DPS classes in the game and complain that you need heals as well. That god forbid, when you don’t have a healer on your team you die. Well so does every other dps class with no healer. The game is designed around healers, you are SUPPOSED TO DIE WHEN YOU HAVE NONE. That's a fact.

 

You really need to go educate your self by playing other dps classes in regs other than mara. Maybe then youll understand how good you have it. Check your privilege.

 

I do not for one second see heals as a defensive at all and I can't imagine where you could have gotten that impression as I clearly stated heals are not defensives at all in my last reply.

 

Of course heals are not as effectice at mitigating damage as DCDs, heals don't mitigate damage at all! You are in essence agreeing with me. Re-read my last reply as I make a point out of acknowleding the difference and thus why comparing heals and DCDs is an assaine view point to take because they are intended to do completely different things.

 

Heals are not defensives measures, they are recupartive measures. Heals are band-aids, not shields. Heals will not mitigate even 1 point of damage.

 

And I also agree with you that DCDs will mitigate infinately more damage than heals will because heals are incapable of mitigating damage. That's not their function. It's literally comparing apples and oranages.

 

Survivability has to aspects. Defensive measures [DCDs] and recuperative measures [heals]. Heals are intended to replace damage sustained after the defensives measures have mitigated the amount of damage a person has taken. They are both important aspects of survivability. Now, if you take one of them completely out of the equation, that means you are basing survivability entirely only on one half of that equation.

 

I.E. If you have 3 applies and 4 oranges and someone asks you, how many peices of fruit [Fruit being overall survivability] do you have, the answer would be 7. If someone asks you how many applies you have [Heals] the answer is 3. If someone asks you how many oranges you have [DCDs], the answer would be 4. But, If I only have oranges, and you asked me, how many pieces of fruit to I have the answer than becomes 4. Which means, I have less fruit than someone who has both that number or applies and oranges.

 

It isn't a question of better or worse at all. I'm stating it straight out, heals do not mitigate damage in the slightest. That's not a limitation tho, because that's not what heals are for in the first place, any more than DCDs without heals are limitations, because that's not what they are for.

 

Yea, there are some DCDS that do combine the two, and that's a fair point, but quite honestly, those are the DCDs that are broken and are problematic. DCDs shouldn't do both IMO. That's what makes some of them OP. [Hello Mr. Merc, nice extra lives you have there].

 

Even if you want to try and make some equation out of it to try and make a comparison of heals vs. dcds, which really is a silly consideration because they are not intended to function in the same manner or same reason, if you combine the total amount of health say an extra life would give a player vs a DCD that could still give an idea of what that would be like if compared for that purpose. Let's say Mr. Juggidy Jugg has 150k health, and than let's say he gets max value of his ED, that means it would take 300k to take him down. Than compare that to what 4 seconds of UR would mitigate, in 4 seconds, it is unlikely that anyone is doing 300k in damage. So, that would in essense ensure your not killing that person in 4 seconds just like you are not killing that mara who has UR on in 4 seconds. The difference is however, that you could ED twice in the same period of time that the Mara could use UR [once]. So now, with the consideration of cooldowns, that equation just changed. Because it is 300k, it's 450k now, stacked against the 4 seconds of UR effect.

 

I think you will agree, there is more bang for your buck OVERALL, when you consider the cooldown times involved.

I never said anything to the effect that Mara DCDs are not good. They are great. Amongst the best in the game, thee issue with them only comes into view when you consider uptime vs cooldown. That's where they can become problematic if you would reread my last response to you you will see that I said all these same things than.

 

If a Mara doesn't have a healer on his team, those DCDs will not surpass the combines effects many other have in the interplay of thier DCDs AND heals. There is a reason why Marauder's DCDs tend to be stronger than some of the other classes[ most certainly not stronger than Snipers or Mercs] and that is solely because they have no heals. And that is why I take exception when people want tomake it out like Mara DCDs are too strong. They are not too strong, they would be too strong is they had self heals.

 

Those 4 seconds of UR are fantastically effective. But, if you were at 25% health when you used the UR in the first place to try and save yourself, at the end of those 4 seconds you are going to find yourself in the same exact position you were in that caused you to use UR in the first place, the only difference being that you have one less DCD than 4 seconds ago. Often times, the difference doesn't amount to much more than dieing 4 seconds later than you otherwise would have. There is only thing that would change that and that is getting heals, something they cannot do for themselves.

 

IMO, 4 seconds on a 3 minute cooldown in a WZ, doesn't amount to much considering the ratio of time to effect as is unfluenced by ccooldowns. And it's not like it's their only DCD with a 3 minute cooldown, thier other strongest DCD is also on a 3 minute cooldown.

 

I'm not asking for buffs and I'm not asking for heals. Pure DPS classes, should not have heals at all and if they ever gave Mara's heals, I'd stop playing because they shouldn't have them. But to be fair, neither should Snipers and they do and they are without question in possesstion of DCDs both in effect and amount that is superior to Maras and they are a ranged class which only makes it that much more egregious. Throw in stupid amounts of anti-CC and even stupider amounts of control over melee, there is no argument that could be made that their survivability compared to Marauders is certainly better and not by a small amount.

 

I don't care that other DPS classes have heals and I don't. I'm fine with that. But, and here is the big but, there is no excuse for other classes to have heals, off role-abilities [gaurd, taunt, heals, off heals, cleanses, perma-stealth, stealth rez] as DPS specs and also have better DPS than thier Marauder counter parts.

 

Yes, Fury's DPS is high, but their not the only Marauder spec and I don't play that FOTM "I get everything" crap. I don't think anyone is wrong if they do mind you, but for me, I don't just ship everytime the wind hit's my sail in the wrong direction.

 

Carnage's DPS is deplorable and there is no excuse for classes with heals, off heals, perma stealth, taunts, gaurds, cleanses, stealth rez etc] to have better DPS than them.

 

You might not see the value in the DPS chart I shared, and I can't stop you from thinking that doesn't matter, that's your choice. I would tell you nothing in regard to Tanking, I would concede to your superior knowledge of them at every turn because I acknowledge you know that much better than I do. - That DPS chart, matters everwhere. DPS is calculated in the same exact manner wherever you are playing. There is no difference between how DPS is calculated in Operations or Flash Points, or Heroics, or Uprisings, or PVP. It's all the same equation everwhere and that DPS chart is establised based on that very same equation. Of course you are not going to do the same DPS on a Dummy that you are going to do in live action, that's a duh, but, that difference between specs in their DPS potentials is true everywhere, so all things being equal, those DPS differences maintain similarly everywhere. The only time that's not the case is where there are differences in skill. knowledge of spec, gear.

 

Skill plays it's part everywhere, that's a given, but if you think that the spec you are playing doesn't effect the DPS output, respectfully, you'd just be plain out wrong.

 

Gravity doesn't care if you believe in it or not, you're gonna fall to your death when you step over the edge of that cliff all the same. Science and Math do not lie. DPS is a math equation and equation I shared in the other string if you would like to attempt to calculate DPS without the aid of a parser, which work just as effectively in PVP as they do in PVE.

 

As someone who's background is in Law Enforcement I assure that almost all laws get broken every single day. There are however a few that never get broken. - They're called the Laws of Physics. Everyone always obeys them, there is no other possibility.

 

I will without reservation always bow to your superior knowledge of Tanking, whether you wish to acknowledge my MUCH smaller area of expertise than yours [You know tanks and healers better than I do by a wide margin.], that's up to you. There's only one kind of DPS. Damage per second.

[KendraP]

Now we are just debating philosophy here guys.

 

In an (mostly irrelevant to most warzones) 1v1 situation, self heals may put you ahead.

 

In a situation where both teams have healers mitigation > self healing almost all the time.

 

But its all moot because by design some classes work by trying to heal the damage off (merc being the best example, sorc probably the worst) and some work by avoiding the damage altogether (mara and shadow).

[kissingaiur]

snip.

 

grim tell me the point of that novel please you just wrote. you are rambling with no clear direction

 

If you are trying to prove to me that healing dcds are somehow better than mitigation, the math says otherwise

 

TL;DR please

Edited June 8, 2018 by kissingaiur