Outrageous Respec Cost

[Matte_Black]

The PvE content may not be up to scratch at the moment, but it will be. You're not going to retain the sort of player base to make this profitable (and a LOT of money has been put into this game - they can't afford to cater to obscure attitudes) unless competition is alive and well, which means difficult encounters along the line and room for min-maxing and the hardcore raiders etc.

 

Fun isn't enough to keep your player base subscribing. You need challenges, difficult content and for it to keep coming. Better gear, better everything. That's a more powerful motivation than "fun" - you may not like it, but it's the truth and any psychologist worth a damn will tell you so. Your version of the game simply doesn't tally with reality.

 

That is the point, the game should be scaled such that all builds using all their points class gear can be viable with a modicum of skill. By catering to higher percentages of optimized builds you begin to draw the scaling of the game toward those optimized builds and all of the sudden people choosing a build they find fun, unique or interesting stop being viable.

 

Again, look at the design choices they have made in this game. They aren't about competing with other games for the hard-core competitive optimizer types. They more frequently embrace casual and story-oriented play. That especially makes swapping your character from a duellist to a healer to weapon of destruction particularly out-of-place from a consistent story perspective.

 

While you may want the game to run a certain way and many players ask for dual speccing, your suggestions seem counter to the direction BioWare is going with this game. You have options at your disposal, you just don't seem to want to have to work at or pay for any of them.

 

Also, before lecturing me on psychology, you should know I am a behaviorist who deals with reward, punishment and motivation on a daily basis.

[Tierce]

If you just wait a few days, it will decrease drastically. I don't see how that's a big deal. If you can't play a spec you chose for 3 days, you need to lay off the energy drinks and take some chill pills. If you want to have immediate availability of other roles to play, level an alt.

[Otherlander]

Respeccing was never intended to be used as dual speccing.

Frankly bw should put a weekly cap on the times to can respec. Limit to like 3 times a week tops.

 

So you mean someone that wants to pvp and pvp every night of the week would be screwed? Great design, buddy!

[Lostpenguins]

Rift's quad spec would save your entire hotbar setup, including the spells you would gain/lose each spec change. Convenience at it's finest. It's called evolution.

 

Rift also built boss mechanics to switch specs on the fly, so you needed the specs to remain viable in raids. As a warrior in Rift I had a:

1) PvP Spec

2) PvE DPS Spec

3) PvE Tank Spec

4) PvE DPS Spec for one boss (Estrode)

5) Solo-Grinding RB/Reaver Spec

 

They gave me 5 specs, but I needed to use all of them or else:

1) I couldn't PvP because you can't use a PvE spec to PvP (you can in TOR)

2) Someone might have to sit out to bring another tank in (bad raid mechanics by Trion/Rift)

3) Couldn't solo grind on IE with a Raid DPS Spec (once again, bad mechanics by Trion/Rift)

4) I wouldn't be able to fight one boss - actually, no one in our raids would be able to fight that boss (once again, bad raid mechanics by Trion/Rift to pigeon-hole you to respec for a single boss fight)

5) Could never tank an Expert Dungeon

 

So... I like the idea of multi-specs. I like how it saves your bars. However, I do not like the fact that they gave us 5 specs and made a person feel forced to play all 5 specs to experience the entire game.

 

So... the feature may have evolved the game, but is it really freedom when they just raise the demands as well to match the convenience the supply? That's just raising minimum wage and inflation at the same time.

[Truga]

Do you mean like, once combat has started, or once something is killed the raid is locked and nobody can enter? Because I've played plenty of games (WoW included) where the first is true, but I've never played a game where the second is. And I've played probably 90% of all MMO's that came out since 2004. Including F2P asian games out the wazoo. I'm fine with raid locks where people can't go to a different raid if they've already killed a boss or cleared one, but I'm definitely not fine with nobody being allowed to join once one has started.

 

Actually, you're right. Most games allow entering whenever, as long as no-one is in combat. The couple I played most locked players out on certain conditions though. Most of it was elaborate dungeon mechanics, though in a couple there were simply doors or portals closing, I'm guessing due to dev laziness. The one I liked most was DDO, Titan raid:

 

There were no real limitations on the first part before the boss (and once the level cap got increased people did it in trios), but a maximum of 12 players could ever go from start to finish due to intricate puzzle mechanics. The players needed to split into three groups, fighting their way about the map, while solving puzzles to let the other groups through. Once twelve players were through, it was impossible to get more, though, due to the mechanics of that dungeon. The boss fight ensued after that.

 

This way, you achieve not only having the people ensuring they can just defeat the final boss, but also defeating any kind of challenge in-between the start and the end of the raid with the exact same party composition, which is, arguably, much harder to achieve. In fact, this raid went unfinished for months, and only one guild managed to down it on the night before Turbine then made it easier to complete.

 

And this is the kind of hard content I'm talking about. Treating the whole raid as a single encounter, rather than treating each hard fight as one, and just bringing the best possible group for each one. Once certain conditions are met (say, first heavy/boss encounter starts), no-one goes in or out of the instance. This way you plan for the whole thing, rather than bringing the best for each individual fight.

[Ahlin]

And this is the kind of hard content I'm talking about. Treating the whole raid as a single encounter, rather than treating each hard fight as one, and just bringing the best possible group for each one. Once certain conditions are met (say, first heavy/boss encounter starts), no-one goes in or out of the instance. This way you plan for the whole thing, rather than bringing the best for each individual fight.

 

The problem with this is TIME. I work 8-5 myself and after getting home, going to the gym, and eating dinner I'm left with maybe 2-3 hours to raid in a night. If the content is at least decently challenging that time will get filled up. And I definitely won't be able to clear it that night.

 

Then when it's picked up later in the week (we always had 2-3 raid days) we don't always have the same people online, or different people had signed up to go. We can't really reschedule the time of everyone around say, one person, because they couldn't make it at any other time during the week.

 

That's why the ability to add more people, or have an existing person change what they can do, is important to raid dynamics.

 

Keep in mind this mostly only applies to raiding.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Ahlin

[Thermopylae]

So you mean someone that wants to pvp and pvp every night of the week would be screwed? Great design, buddy!

 

No, like the way games used to be designed, you roll another character that is spec'd primarily for PvP. OR, you use a build that allows for both. It's not like you are limited to one character per server.

[NuanceNW]

 

if I have to respec again it would cost 50k to do so. When the loading screen suggest I try out different specs through experimentation that is exactly what I did. I also have been switching between healing and dps just to make a heroic grp work for my guild.

 

 

This is why my friends and I have both a snipers and operatives, one for dps, one for healing. Don't need to respect or have a second or third tree, instead we have two or three characters specifically designed for the role needed.

 

Gotta stop thinking in terms of other MMOs and embrace what is presented to you. Even in those other games, we always had multiple characters designed for specific roles. This game simply acknowledges that early choices for your character have lasting results. Want a healer, make a healer, can't find one, then look beyond your friends list.

Edited January 4, 2012 by NuanceNW

[Ahlin]

No, like the way games used to be designed, you roll another character that is spec'd primarily for PvP. OR, you use a build that allows for both. It's not like you are limited to one character per server.

 

But this isn't 1998 anymore. Games have progressed and changed. Doing something just because that's the way it's done before isn't a good thing. It stunts progress and growth. Just look at what religion has done to science for the last thousand years. Without them causing the dark ages, we'd probably have flying cars by now.

[Thermopylae]

But this isn't 1998 anymore. Games have progressed and changed. Doing something just because that's the way it's done before isn't a good thing. It stunts progress and growth. Just look at what religion has done to science for the last thousand years. Without them causing the dark ages, we'd probably have flying cars by now.

 

You speak of evolution as if it's always a good thing. Just because something CAN change doesn't mean it should. I'm so tired of games being more and more diluted for those that are lazy, cheap or both. I'll take 1998 any day, where a character's death means something, and choices made are truly felt.

 

And leave religion of it, fool. It's a stupid place to use such an analogy, regardless of your beliefs.

[ferroz]

Playing a sage lv 24 and a commanod 34 healer now and have no problem killing mobs at all it is actually that i have great solobility and killing elites have never been easier.

It's good that you have fun with that. If you enjoy hitting yourself in the head with a hammer, or eating lead paint chips... well, you just keep on doing what you enjoy.

 

but that's irrelevant on whether someone else enjoys it or not.

 

People should really stop wanting to be best on everything

Nice strawman. No one is asking for that.

[Truga]

You speak of evolution as if it's always a good thing. Just because something CAN change doesn't mean it should. I'm so tired of games being more and more diluted for those that are lazy, cheap or both. I'll take 1998 any day, where a character's death means something, and choices made are truly felt.

 

Indeed! EXP/Level loss on death! Also, you die in PVP, someone loots you, you start over naked. UO best O. Aww yeah.

[Lostpenguins]

Just look at what religion has done to science for the last thousand years. Without them causing the dark ages, we'd probably have flying cars by now.

 

I seriously hope this was an attempt to start a flame war.

 

1 - Please take 5 minutes to research the Dark Ages and find out it was due to the decline of the Roman Empire... not because of religion. If you want to argue that religion caused the downfall of the Roman Empire... please spend 5 minutes to research that topic too...

 

2 - Now... to avoid the whole religion debate I'll have to say you're incredibly wrong. The fall of the Roman Empire caused a lot of technology loss we had built up (people still don't know how Greek Fire was made). And even if we had flying cars, they would still be run on gas because of human greed and they desire of those that are the "haves" (i.e. oil companies) prevents us from fixing a lot of problems.

 

It is greed and human selfishness that causes us not to progress as fast as we can. Money, religion, race, etc. are used methods and rationalizations used to support a person or a groups selfishness to hurt others or to gain personal profit from those hurt. You can remove religion out of the equation and we'd still probably be about where we are now in terms of technology.

 

3 - Now, to get BACK on topic. Respec costs are fine so long as BW makes it so that people can PvE and PvP in one spec and raids don't require people to be subbed in/out for certain boss encounters.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Lostpenguins

[Deriver]

OP, this is SW: TOR official forums where all the ignorant fanboys live. You might call it outrageous, but fanboys will call it "smart" and "prevents people from respeccing a lot". Since when did fanboys get to decide what a player wants to be and when he/she wants to be? They paid for the game as much as you do so you need to sthu and mind your own business.

 

Let me try to understand your logic. You say that those who dont agree with all the whinning are ignorant fanboys. You also say that you and them paid the same for the game.

 

Now explain to me how someone who does not want things to change and actually enjoy EXACTLY WHAT THEY PAID FOR is any ignorant? Now you demand the very same thing EVERYONE ELSE PAID FOR to be changed and suited to your needs and you are the one right here?

 

You are an idiot, like most of the whinners in this forum. You dont like the game? LEAVE. No one is forcing you to stay and have to deal with things you dislike, the very same things you paid for.

 

God, i hate these spoiled little kids.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Deriver

[a_Stalker]

For those of you who have not gotten to my point at respec cost let me tell you the cost structure.

 

1st time: free

2nd: 1800 cred

3rd: 8300

4th: 25000

5th: 50000

 

if I have to respec again it would cost 50k to do so. When the loading screen suggest I try out different specs through experimentation that is exactly what I did. I also have been switching between healing and dps just to make a heroic grp work for my guild.

 

Just to get a sense of how much 50k is, I would have to do 10 warzone matches just to be able to pay for a respec.

 

Surely the fanboys will tell you that respeccing is totally your fault for not making the right choices for you or for your guild.

 

You did not mention the trip to the NPC.

[a_Stalker]

Your 'problem' is you are using respec in order to dualspec. Dualspec has been confirmed to come in a later release so untill that time you cant spec heal and dps. Unless your willing to spend the credits to respec. But again: dualspec and respec are two different things.

 

And 50k is offcourse a lot of credits, but on the other hands if you follow the quest lines, do some heroics, then you can easily make that in one day.

 

So can I ask for my money back for this and a ton of other missing features? I will pay them back when they implement them, thanks.

[a_Stalker]

Dual-spec is on the work, then those prices will be just fine. We just have to wait for it. Rome was not built in a day you know...

 

Were they also charging top dollar for colliseum views before they built it?

[Matte_Black]

So can I ask for my money back for this and a ton of other missing features? I will pay them back when they implement them, thanks.

 

You can always ask but, I doubt you'll get far asking for refunds on undelivered promises they did not make. The closest they came to promising dual speccing is a comment that they'd like to do it in the future. No where did they claim it would be available at release.

[Thermopylae]

Were they also charging top dollar for colliseum views before they built it?

 

You call $15/mth top dollar? Additionally, when dual-spec is released you will still pay $15/mth. Funny stuff.

[ferroz]

No, like the way games used to be designed, you roll another character that is spec'd primarily for PvP. OR, you use a build that allows for both. It's not like you are limited to one character per server.

hey, maybe we should use the design from before there were computers. Back then, games used to be designed so that you had to meet in person to play with people. Maybe we should go with that, since older = better, eh?

 

or, perhaps we could keep up with current and good mmo design where garbage like that sort of artificial limit is a thing of the past.

[a_Stalker]

[quote

 

LOL no, and I wish people would actually put thought into a post before clicking the button. You think that needing a proper spec is the reason mmos are going down this path. I think the better question is "why is an optimal spec required?" Yet do you think that when Bioware is making fp/operations they sit down and go "o.k. we need to make it so that if a group chooses talents at random they can still beat it"? No, they don't. The game is designed around having optimal specs. You can not blame players for doing what the game is designed around.

 

Very good point. I have spent time reading on talent specs and then experimenting in raids and in 5 mans and talking with my friend about it and both of us trying to find what spec suits what situation best. Then analysing combat logs to see how we performed. This is druid healing in WOW.

 

Yes SWTOR does not have dual or tripple talents and does not even have combat logs come to think about it.

 

I am surprised the game even loads. That is a major success.

[Thermopylae]

hey, maybe we should use the design from before there were computers. Back then, games used to be designed so that you had to meet in person to play with people. Maybe we should go with that, since older = better, eh?

 

or, perhaps we could keep up with current and good mmo design where garbage like that sort of artificial limit is a thing of the past.

 

Funny thing is, I didn't say older is better. I said newer doesn't necessarily mean it's better. Take you, for instance. You are likely half or a third my age, yet I'm smarter, richer, better looking and more talented than you. j/k of course.

 

My point is that many of what gamers now call standard features don't enhance the game; they actually dilute it. Current paths appear to be taking us into an MMO design where you don't have to have any skill at all to play, and by proxy, the reward is equally bland. It used to be you had to actually LOOK for objectives, adding to the exploration of the gameworld. It used to be you actually cared whether you died because it hurt enough to make you fear death. It used to be you had to actually THINK when you bought a skill or item, because it was worth more than what you looted in some random pick up group.

[Guaritorr]

Rift's quad spec would save your entire hotbar setup, including the spells you would gain/lose each spec change. Convenience at it's finest. It's called evolution.

 

I really did enjoy Rift and their soul system/quintuple spec (yeah, a 5th spec was the first thing I bought the day It came out for my mage, before my epic mount even). However, I've been grateful just to be able to respec at all ever since I misplaced a point or two on my 96 pally in D2 and had to reroll it because you can't respec at all. I also remember having to level multiple chars of the same class if I wanted to just make a blizz sorc instead of a orbsorc (two different abilities in the same tree even).

 

Yeah, I realize it's an old example... but damn if it doesn't humble me when it comes to the topic of respecs.

[a_Stalker]

See, you're linear in your thought, focused on just biggest bang for your buck. This doesn't surprise me, players like yourself often think this way: Power through it, and continually throw yourself (and your DPS) at the wall till the results are different.

 

If I skip out on a DPS boost, minimal or great, to take, say, a crowd control element to my character, then I will do it because I want to have that ability. Of course, this wouldn't fly in your group because you took an AE that adds another 2% over the course of the battle incrementally when used in conjunction with another ability, when a third ability is active and you're facing west, and that is knocking the CC'd mob out of CC and back into active play. Because, hey, that's an extra 2% over the life of the fight and that's optimizing my DPS and the tank should know to have the mob facing west, so when I have it's back for attack to minimize the riposte damage I myself will be facing west bringing in the .05% boost, again, maxmizing my DPS.

 

It's old, it's rote, and realize people will choose skills for other reasons thatn having the most Oomph for one skill, be it damage reduction, DPS or HPS. You try to talk like your a serious gamer, but you're faking the funk and coming back with a one dimensional mindset.

 

You have never ever raided. Switch off now before your older brother realises you are on to his account.

[a_Stalker]

You can always ask but, I doubt you'll get far asking for refunds on undelivered promises they did not make. The closest they came to promising dual speccing is a comment that they'd like to do it in the future. No where did they claim it would be available at release.

 

Good point, I admit defeat. I should have come to these forums before I bought the game.