Does anybody truly believe that Windu was ever a match for Sidious?

[Loadsamonie]

Because Windu supposedly "bested" Sidious by seeing his shatterpoint, but died because he couldn't see his own, AKA Anakin betraying him?

 

I mean, think about it this way. Windu engaged Sidious in a lightsaber duel alongside THREE of the orders finest duelists: Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin, and the undisputed master of Shii-Cho himself, Kit Fisto. Three seconds into the fight, Sidious cuts down Kolar and Tiin before the other two even have a chance to react, and then Kit Fisto gets cut down about five seconds later, even with Windu supporting him. Who is to say that Sidious, as powerful as he was with the Force, didn't just "sense" Anakins arrival through the Force and feign defeat to more easily manipulate Anakin and turn him?

 

Windu held his own from that point on as he gave ground to Sidious's attacks, but honestly, Sidious had a reason not to just immediately cut Windu down. Does anybody really think that Windu stood any real chance, that he would have actually defeated Sidious if Anakin were not part of the picture?

[AlienEyeTX]

It's pretty obvious that Sidious is faking his weakness. He could easily have destroyed Windu whenever he chose. He chose to do it when Anakin fell... all according to plan. It's not like he didn't know the Jedi were coming; Anakin told him it was going to happen. He knew that Anakin wouldn't stay away.

 

All he had to do was make Anakin believe that he would lose all hope to save Padme.

[kepeskvaeri]

Personally I do not see why not.

If you read the book you can clearly se why the fight went the way it did. Kolar and Tiin steps up to opposite sides to arrest Sidious and when Sidious tells Tiin to read his mind they lower their blades. So sidious lets his camoflauge go and takes their heads while their guard is down. Then he goes for the other two, and no matter how good fisto is he is as stated only a master of form 1 which is only designed for fighting several opponents (and manyarmed opponents like grievous) and is extremely weak against Makashi which Sidious happened to be a master of.

The fight betwwen Mace and Sidious is another story. Mace created Vapaad and is its only living master alongside Voss at the time so Sidious has no idea how to counter it (for reference look at the fight between Ka'sim VS Bane or Dooku VS Anakin/Obi-Wan and see what happens when you go up against a force user with an unfamiliar fighting style) and throughout the fight stays right on top of Sidious so the Dark Lord has no opportunity to let loose a force strom without getting his hand chopped off (bear in mind that during the fight they move at teleportation speed).

Add the fact that Vapaad gets stronger the stronger the opposing dark sider is when used by a master (Voss VS Sora Bulq had a similar outcome) there is no reason to assume that Sidious was faking anything.

Finally Mace wins when he breaks the window forcing Sidious to give up a little strength to keep himself from getting blown of the building, slowing him down just enough to get his lightsaber cut in half.

 

Movie version is another story. Sidious starts of with a force scream which the jedi has no experience or protection from so three gets cut down before they can recover. Then Mace starts hammering down on Sidious and wins more details then that is nowhere to be found.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Does anybody truly believe that Windu was ever a match for Sidious?

 

Ah, again the trope of "evil always wins" and "evil is always better" etc. ...

[casirabit]

Because Windu supposedly "bested" Sidious by seeing his shatterpoint, but died because he couldn't see his own, AKA Anakin betraying him?

 

I mean, think about it this way. Windu engaged Sidious in a lightsaber duel alongside THREE of the orders finest duelists: Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin, and the undisputed master of Shii-Cho himself, Kit Fisto. Three seconds into the fight, Sidious cuts down Kolar and Tiin before the other two even have a chance to react, and then Kit Fisto gets cut down about five seconds later, even with Windu supporting him. Who is to say that Sidious, as powerful as he was with the Force, didn't just "sense" Anakins arrival through the Force and feign defeat to more easily manipulate Anakin and turn him?

 

Windu held his own from that point on as he gave ground to Sidious's attacks, but honestly, Sidious had a reason not to just immediately cut Windu down. Does anybody really think that Windu stood any real chance, that he would have actually defeated Sidious if Anakin were not part of the picture?

 

If he was that powerful, then why didn't he foresee that Darth Vader (Anakin) would actually pick him up and threw him down the shaft to save Luke? Yoda speaks on the future and being able to foresee the future: "Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future..”

Edited April 20, 2018 by casirabit

[AlienEyeTX]

If he was that powerful, then why didn't he foresee that Darth Vader (Anakin) would actually pick him up and threw him down the shaft to save Luke? Yoda speaks on the future and being able to foresee the future: "Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future..”

 

Because the books and prequels were poorly designed, giving force-users abilities that they probably never should have had. They are more like superheroes than "space wizards" at that point.

 

Personally, I prefer the space wizard approach to the force.

 

The only way around it is to assume that the Emperor was so confident that Vader would never turn that he was completely focused on Luke and not even attempting to read Vader's mind for betrayal.

[Sith-Viscera]

Well, No, Windu is no match for The Emperor. We seen Windu Light saber prowess in the clone wars and i think only other force ability i recall him doing was a Force Push in that same battle. Other than that, he couldnt hold a candle to an Inquisitors prowess such as Sidious's & his skills with a light saber was evident with his battle with Master Yoda and then his brief light saber fight with Windu.

 

And if you think Windu got the better end of that saber fight, you may be crazy? Sidious for sees almost everything. He foreseen the events that would play out that would bring young, angry, confused, and mad, Anakin Skywallker closer to his grasp. He Knew he would have to let Windu best him and deform him in such a hideous way, that Skywalker will believe him when he says, "See the jedi wants me dead, Don't let him Kill me Ani" ( or something like that) Convincing Anakin to finally help him and strike down Windu Which left Windu's guard down enough for Sidious to, Unleash a lightning storm across Mace's body, something Young Ani never saw before. He was seeing the results of the Dark Side and he just didn't know it yet. Or, he didn't want to believe it? Than the strength of the lightning barrage intensified, and at its peak power, had propelled Mace, forcing him out that tower window to what we thought we saw, as Windu's, demise...

 

And Convinced Anakin Skywalker, Sidious did. Moments Later, and from that moment on.

Anakin Skywalker had died in agony. And Lord Vader was Born. His Journey to the Dark Side almost Completed.

 

Sidious knew it would take Master Mace Windu's actions, actions that took Sidious to orchestrate once forseen, to finally draw Skywalker to the DARK SIDE, once and for all....

 

But before he can complete his Dark Side transformation, he would have to confront His first Master? Master Obi Wan Konobi. Only Than Can The Rebirth Begin to its final conclusion.

 

 

in conclusion, I say Emporer Sidious is a BAD MOFO. But to be fair, we really never seen Mace Windu Unleash his true powers or maybe we did, guess we will never know now?

Edited April 20, 2018 by Sith-Viscera

[Darkrebellord]

Mace Windu would have won against Sidious reading into his back ground he had 40 years of fighting behind him Sidious never really fought in this time accord to the back ground story instead he contrated on deception and deceiving his way through the sith order betray those in the dead of night or by way of his apprentices or under his two masters Darth Plagueis' and ghost of Plagueis' master whom was the one who told Sidious it was his time to seize power.

 

So to say Mace Windu would have been beat easily is not true at all, his down fall was he took to long to make a decision on wether Sidious should live or die due to Anikins interference and Windu own belief in justice was the real reason Windu died.

[casirabit]

Sith-Viscera;9586294]

Sidious knew it would take Master Mace Windu's actions, actions that took Sidious to orchestrate once forseen, to finally draw Skywalker to the DARK SIDE, once and for all....

 

Once and for all? I don't think so, did you forget that Anakin turned back to the light side because of his son and then threw the Emperor down the shaft, so saying once and for all is really not true, now is it?

[TalonVII]

It's pretty obvious that Sidious is faking his weakness. He could easily have destroyed Windu whenever he chose. He chose to do it when Anakin fell... all according to plan. It's not like he didn't know the Jedi were coming; Anakin told him it was going to happen. He knew that Anakin wouldn't stay away.

 

All he had to do was make Anakin believe that he would lose all hope to save Padme.

Read the novelization of 3. This is actually false.

[AlienEyeTX]

Read the novelization of 3. This is actually false.

 

The novels don't exist... just the movies. Windu was a punk and got what he deserved.

[MikeCobalt]

Faking his Weakness or not anytime somebody is holding a LightSabre, Sword, Pistol, Rifle or even a Fork in another's face they're going to have a "Life Changing Event". Once again what normally would've resulted was interrupted because the Hero decided to "Talk" instead of finishing what had to be done. Movies, fun to watch but farther from reality then flying pigs. ((Don't say anything, just "Do It".)) Mace had infact "Beaten him" but right in the end screwed it up by "Moving his mouth instead of his arm".

[TalonVII]

The novels don't exist... just the movies. Windu was a punk and got what he deserved.

 

The actual official novels don't exist as canon. Boy that's news to me.

[AlienEyeTX]

The actual official novels don't exist as canon. Boy that's news to me.

 

Most people and most fans don't read the novels. That makes them fairly irrelevant. What happens on screen is what matters.

[MikeCobalt]

Most people and most fans don't read the novels. That makes them fairly irrelevant. What happens on screen is what matters.

If its Official, its canon, doesn't matter how many people read it. Canon is set by the Writer/Creator, not by trendy popularity contests. If it happened in the Movies or Official novels that's how it is. Look at Reven super popular has Lucas or anybody else (Not "Basement Bob") validated that?

[AlienEyeTX]

If its Official, its canon, doesn't matter how many people read it. Canon is set by the Writer/Creator, not by trendy popularity contests. If it happened in the Movies or Official novels that's how it is. Look at Reven super popular has Lucas or anybody else (Not "Basement Bob") validated that?

 

I know it's "official." I'm just saying it's irrelevant.

 

Sidious obviously had the fight in the bag and tanked it.

[MikeCobalt]

I know it's "official." I'm just saying it's irrelevant.

 

Sidious obviously had the fight in the bag and tanked it.

I *Believe Sidious Knew Anakin was on his way so biding for time would allow Anakin's temper, extreme shortsightedness , impulsiveness, naivety and Blind dedication to "Palpatine" would interfere or even stop (Kill) Windu. Also...Mace was a fighter, stood for justice and even though no stranger to death / killing, as not being feral or evil, Mace would "Hesitate" (gets'em everytime (Hero). I believe Mace fought Sidious down and was seconds from finishing it, Sidious got lucky and turned it against Windu. Talk about luckily being in the right place at the right time Anakin and Sidious. I think it Played out exactly the way the Movie and Lucas intended it to be.

[AlienEyeTX]

I *Believe Sidious Knew Anakin was on his way so biding for time would allow Anakin's temper, extreme shortsightedness , impulsiveness, naivety and Blind dedication to "Palpatine" would interfere or even stop (Kill) Windu. Also...Mace was a fighter, stood for justice and even though no stranger to death / killing, as not being feral or evil, Mace would "Hesitate" (gets'em everytime (Hero). I believe Mace fought Sidious down and was seconds from finishing it, Sidious got lucky and turned it against Windu. Talk about luckily being in the right place at the right time Anakin and Sidious. I think it Played out exactly the way the Movie and Lucas intended it to be.

 

Perhaps. I could certainly see Sidious "biding his time" and that being a mistake. After all, if he killed all the Jedi before Anakin arrived, Anakin would just rage and attack Sidious, ruining the entire plan. Anakin had to be placed in a position to be stressed emotionally and make a decision.

 

Regardless of how it played out, it all went according the Emperor's plan.

[UselessLayabout]

From numerous canon sources and guidebooks an explanation can be pieced together as to why Windu was able to contend with Sidious.

 

Basically there are several factors.

The first most obvious one is Windu's mastery of Vaapad, a highly dangerous sub-set of the Juyo form that was created by Windu himself, which allows a jedi to fight dark side users by channelling their dark power back on to them in a sort of feedback loop, effectively using it against them.

The form requires that Windu would use his passions and enjoy the thrill of the battle, channeling the same kinds of emotions that would normally be used by dark siders.

 

The second factor is actually Windu's own mental state at the time prior to the fight.

Anakin's revelation of Palpatine's true identity shattered Mace Windu to the core; the realisation that the leader of the Republic, the institution he had fought and worked all his life to protect and serve, was hell bent on it's destruction and conquest left Windu feeling bitterness, hopelessness and despair.

These negative emotions left his connection to the light frayed, bringing him closer to the dark side than he had ever been. This would have vastly amplified his power and effectiveness with Vaapad.

 

The third factor has been mentioned before, the environment they were fighting in. Windu used the terrain to his benefit allowing him to break what would have been a perpetual stalemate; his Shatterpoint ability would have allowed him just enough of a tactical advantage. I believe it is stated somewhere in the novels that if both Sidious and Windu had been on strategically neutral ground the duel would have continued for eternity.

 

TLDR:

-Windu's mastery of Vaapad and the Shatterpoint gave him the tools he needed to fight Sidious, and the capacity to exploit a weakness when the opportune moment came.

-The knowledge of Palpatine's real identity drove him far closer to the dark side (but not actually over), amping his power with Vaapad to the point where he was able to fight as a perfect equal to Palpatine, both of them being able to fight forever (if not for the inconveniently placed window).

 

To conclude: Ordinarily Mace Windu would be outmatched, but special circumstances bolstered his power.

[TalonVII]

I'm going to put it plainly. In the matter of the Lightsaber, Mace was simply better than Palpatine. if Palpatine had gone full force abilities then yes no contest Palpatine.

 

Sorry Mace was a better duelist. PERIOD.

[JabbaWabbA]

I think windu bested him in the lightsaber duel. Windu's mastery of Vapaad makes him pretty much unbeatable in LS contest against a dark side user. He'd get cooked in a force powers duel though, which is the only contest that matters. The only Jedi that were legit masters with the force are Yoda and Luke, in canon anyways.

[cool-dude]

According to Lucas, who is God in this case unless Disney says otherwise, Sidious was not faking. I don't see why it's so unbelievable. Windu wasn't a master for nothing. Edited May 14, 2018 by cool-dude

[Thaladan]

"unlimited power !"

 

all is said, this sentence was to demonstrate to windu, just before dying, that he was no match ! but just a lure to make anakin fall to the dark side.

 

- period

Edited May 15, 2018 by Thaladan

[annabethchase]

The actual official novels don't exist as canon. Boy that's news to me.

 

Believe it or not, even the movie novelizations pre-Disney era are legends, not canon. Here's the link to the wookieepedia page where it's categorized as legend and even has an explanation of this at the bottom.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Revenge_of_the_Sith_novel

 

So technically, we shouldn't be using the novel as support in this argument. Therefore, my answer is yes, I thought the fitter, younger Jedi Master had a decent chance based on what we saw in the movies.

Edited May 16, 2018 by annabethchase

[TalonVII]

Believe it or not, even the movie novelizations pre-Disney era are legends, not canon. Here's the link to the wookieepedia page where it's categorized as legend and even has an explanation of this at the bottom.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Revenge_of_the_Sith_novel

 

So technically, we shouldn't be using the novel as support in this argument. Therefore, my answer is yes, I thought the fitter, younger Jedi Master had a decent chance based on what we saw in the movies.

 

That says for the pre books, not the official novelizations of the movies. Nice try.