Tank Balance Changes in Game Update 5.9

[TalonVII]

No to fix skank tanks, make the tank mods worth two craps and for the PT especially, more defensive abilities. Sorry when a Merc can out tank a PT, there's a problem there.

 

The issues is the simple fact defensive mods DO NOT CUT THE MUSTARD. They haven't ever and this nerf doesn't fix it. Want people to tank. Make the tank mods worth two craps.

[KendraP]

No to fix skank tanks, make the tank mods worth two craps and for the PT especially, more defensive abilities. Sorry when a Merc can out tank a PT, there's a problem there.

 

The issues is the simple fact defensive mods DO NOT CUT THE MUSTARD. They haven't ever and this nerf doesn't fix it. Want people to tank. Make the tank mods worth two craps.

 

This. Though i would say, guardian and shadow tanks are fine DCD wise. PT could use the love, however, especially considering the gimped damage output.

[Kyuuu]

this doesnt help anything, it hurts true tanks, more then nerfs skank tanks.

 

Seriously why it so hard to just

Make Shield Generators and guard work ONLY in tank spec, which would fix more thing then proposed changes.

[KendraP]

this doesnt help anything, it hurts true tanks, more then nerfs skank tanks.

 

Seriously why it so hard to just

Make Shield Generators and guard work ONLY in tank spec, which would fix more thing then proposed changes.

 

Seeing as most skanks run a shield and dps guarding are just stupid squishy idiots not real skanks, what does this accomplish, exactly?

[Kurj]

And when they still see Jugg Skanks in PvP, what do you think they'll do about that? They'll just nerf tanks even more.

 

I don't think they will. The jugg nerf is consistent with their stated DPS targets for PVE end-game content. In contrast, the PT nerf addresses the fact that PT skanks can consistently achieve true DPS numbers via cleave. I'm not sure why they nerfed sins as hard as they did. Maybe they think the combination of skank DPS + stealth mechanics is too powerful? I don't know. I never saw them as a problem. If they do anything in the future, I would expect slight buffs to sin and PT tanks. I think they over-nerf initially to quickly reduce the number of players on an over-performing/overplayed spec, then back off on the nerfs later.

 

I agree with you here again. It's been hardly mentioned, because most players aren't willing to be honest enough to accept any responsibility here. But it's also not surprising. Given the choice and opportunity, most players are going to do whatever they can to get every iota of advantage they can get in PvP. While it's absolutely the fault of Bioware for allowing this problem to exist for so long (and the longer a problem exists, the bigger it gets), players who were Skanking share responsibility for the consequences.

 

Good players will adapt to bad mechanics and make the best of them, and it's naive to expect otherwise. And, I don't see anything suggesting that BW thinks "skanking" is bad in view of the current combat mechanics. They clearly think tanks were doing too much damage across the board, but the changes don't impact skanking one way or the other.

 

Skank tanks, while they can do great damage, they cannot fulfill the role of the tank and the tanks responsibilities. If your Guardian/Jugg is a skank, I strongly suggest you spec in to one of the two other disciplines to be a true damage dealer. With those you can off-tank. You still have the same DCDs as a tank and other defensive abilities. Being a skank tank you're taking up the slot of a real tank and hurting the team. And in my mind's eye, that is selfishness on any skank tank player's part and certainly not a team player because you cannot fulfill the tank's true role.

 

"Tanking" is a function, not a description of your stat balance. A tank who guards, taunts, intercedes and peels is "tanking," regardless of his DPS output. Defensive stats provide a very marginal increase in the effectiveness of guard, because defensive stats do not apply to the vast majority of damage-types encountered in PVP, particularly when you are talking about focus fire. Any marginal gain in toughness achieved by hitting PVE-oriented stat blends is vastly outweighed by the loss of DPS forced by that choice.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Kurj

[Mournblood]

I don't think they will. The jugg nerf is consistent with their stated DPS targets for PVE end-game content.

 

They barely touched Juggs, and they buffed (fixed) ED. Combined with the overall damage reduction, tanks are going to be essentially forced to Skank in PvP now. Since PT and Sins will be worse options, that only leaves Juggs. Therefore you'll see more Jugg Skanks than you ever did before. I don't believe they are going to ignore that.

 

Good players will adapt to bad mechanics and make the best of them, and it's naive to expect otherwise. And, I don't see anything suggesting that BW thinks "skanking" is bad in view of the current combat mechanics. They clearly think tanks were doing too much damage across the board, but the changes don't impact skanking one way or the other.

 

You're right, but that doesn't change the fact that it was unintended design and broke trinity. They could have addressed this years ago but didn't because 3-4 years ago, it wasn't as big of a problem. The problem grew over time as Skanks became more prolific, which left BW no choice but to finally address it. None of that changes the player culpability. It's the same premise as exploits - just because one exists in the game, doesn't mean you have to use it. But yes, their solution doesn't actually solve the problem, it only exacerbates it.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Mournblood

[KendraP]

They barely touched Juggs, and they buffed (fixed) ED. Combined with the overall damage reduction, tanks are going to be essentially forced to Skank in PvP now. Since PT and Sins will be worse options, that only leaves Juggs. Therefore you'll see more Jugg Skanks than you ever did before. I don't believe they are going to ignore that.

This is the only reason you dont see me screaming worse. I have maintained level headedness in this whole debate, unlike the conquest debate.

 

You're right, but that doesn't change the fact that it was unintended design and broke trinity. They could have addressed this years ago but didn't because 3-4 years ago, it wasn't as big of a problem. The problem grew over time as Skanks became more prolific, which left BW no choice but to finally address it. None of that changes the player culpability. It's the same premise as exploits - just because one exists in the game, doesn't mean you have to use it. But yes, their solution doesn't actually solve the problem, it only exacerbates it.

 

It also has to do with the relative squishiness of the dps specs of tank capable classes in comparison to the current dps specs of choice.

 

I dont feel like repeating the same thing a third time so see my posts in the gen thread and the other skanking thread here for the rest of my argument.

[ingo_krieg]

Powertech

Shield Tech

• Reduced Ion Gas Cylinder’s damage by 20%
  

 

Vanguard

Shield Specialist

• Reduced Ion Cell’s damage by 20%
  

 

I have a question. There are two different Ion Gas Cylinder's, and Ion Cell's for the respective class. I will only reference the Powertech to keep it simple. The same word usage is applicable to Vanguards.

 

The first is at level 12, simply called "Ion Gas Cylinder". It states "Loads your blaster with ion-charged gas, giving ranged attacks a 15% chance to deal X additional energy damage once every 1.5 seconds. While this cylinder is active, armor rating is increased by 60%, damage reduction is increased by 5%, shield chance is increased by 15%, threat generation is increased by 100%, accuracy is increased by 10%, and all damage dealt is reduced by 10%."

 

The other is at level 16 under Ion Overload it states "Dealing damage with Rocket Punch triggers Ion Gas Cylinder on the target and dealing damage with Rail Shot triggers Ion Gas Cylinder on the target and up to 7 additional enemies within 5 meters. In addition, when Ion Gas Cylinder deals damage, it will also shock the target for X additional energy damage over 6 seconds. None of these effects damage sleeping, lifted, or incapacitated enemies. Generates a high amount of threat."

 

Can you please elaborate more which of the two Ion Gas Cylinders is having damage reduced by 20%, or if both are. Thank you.

[Kurj]

They barely touched Juggs, and they buffed (fixed) ED. Combined with the overall damage reduction, tanks are going to be essentially forced to Skank in PvP now. Since PT and Sins will be worse options, that only leaves Juggs. Therefore you'll see more Jugg Skanks than you ever did before. I don't believe they are going to ignore that.

 

That’s true, but juggs are one of the most-played classes across all types of content no matter what they do, so I don’t think they’re as sensitive to seeing tons of juggs. I think the ED buff will make DPS juggs more viable in regs. Vigi/vengeance is a very popular spec solely based on play style, and I think many former DPS juggs will give the spec a try again. Depending on how much of that we see, BW may not perceive it as imbalance.

 

You're right, but that doesn't change the fact that it was unintended design and broke trinity. They could have addressed this years ago but didn't because 3-4 years ago, it wasn't as big of a problem. The problem grew over time as Skanks became more prolific, which left BW no choice but to finally address it. None of that changes the player culpability. It's the same premise as exploits - just because one exists in the game, doesn't mean you have to use it. But yes, their solution doesn't actually solve the problem, it only exacerbates it.

 

There’s no relationship between stat balance issues in combat mechanics and exploits. But, other than that, I can’t argue with anything you said. The real issue is mitigation. They need to make armor rating a part of stat balance, and the problem is solved.

[Ghost_Spectre]

Again. If we are both long time tanks, i feel we can both be reasonable. Given the fact i do run a shield (albeit with dps mods and enhancements. Tank armorings for the extra endurance), i do still shield and absorb. Just not as much as if i had tank stats (arguably). See the post above yours for the likely explanation of why i don't feel a survivability difference.

 

You cannot protect anyone with a shield using base protection values. You cannot defend anyone. The one true function of a tank and you as a skank tank cannot perform it. This is where you fail. This is where skank tanks are of no value to a team. Skank tanks are DPS specialist, nothing more and nothing less. Stop rationalizing something that cannot be rationalized. You are not a tank, not even in the slightest meaning of the word.

[KendraP]

You cannot protect anyone with a shield using base protection values. You cannot defend anyone. The one true function of a tank and you as a skank tank cannot perform it. This is where you fail. This is where skank tanks are of no value to a team. Skank tanks are DPS specialist, nothing more and nothing less. Stop rationalizing something that cannot be rationalized. You are not a tank, not even in the slightest meaning of the word.

 

You keep saying it doesnt work, yet i have run BOTH ways and noticed no difference. Explain to me HOW and WHY it does not work rsther than attacking me. Notice I hsve been using logic and reason in all my arguments. Saying I am not a tank is nothing more than a simple insult unless you explain how and/or why.

[wadecounty]

You cannot protect anyone with a shield using base protection values. You cannot defend anyone. The one true function of a tank and you as a skank tank cannot perform it. This is where you fail. This is where skank tanks are of no value to a team. Skank tanks are DPS specialist, nothing more and nothing less. Stop rationalizing something that cannot be rationalized. You are not a tank, not even in the slightest meaning of the word.

 

Do you understand how mitigation works in this game?

[KendraP]

Do you understand how mitigation works in this game?

 

I don't think they do... this is why I ask him to explain the HOW and WHY. I have been doing so, or pointing him to posts that do so, in my explanations

[Ghost_Spectre]

You keep saying it doesnt work, yet i have run BOTH ways and noticed no difference. Explain to me HOW and WHY it does not work rsther than attacking me. Notice I hsve been using logic and reason in all my arguments. Saying I am not a tank is nothing more than a simple insult unless you explain how and/or why.

 

I've already explained it too you. You refuse to see it. Especially with the shield. If you have that on a healer or light armor wearing DPS toon, that shield will only offer base protection chances. You really should look at your shield chance with those DPS mods.

 

What that means is even if your shield does its job, its only 20% chance to shield. If not, that means you will take 50% of the full damage coming in. You have no mitigation mods to stop or defend against those. You're no different than Vengeance/Vigilance discipline using a focus to shield with your shield ability.

 

Your shielded toon suffers and you do to. If it is a healer, they are going to focus healing themselves while you're being annihilated by the incoming damage even if you blow all your cool downs.

 

You cannot do a tank's job using DPS gear because you do not have any shielding, absorption or defense required to mitigate any damage. You do not have the damage reduction a tank gets with its tank gear. You'll take far more damage from attacks than a tank will. You cannot defend or protect anyone as a pure geared tank. You are not a tank. When I min/maxed my PvP armor I'd watch a smuggler or agent do their rotation on me and my health bar moved 10% to 15% without using any defensive abilities. Once they were done, it was my turn. You cannot do that because you have no tank defenses.

 

If you cannot see this, then you'll never see it. You believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that a skank tank is more viable in PVP than a real tank. It is a lie. How can a pseudo-tank with no tank mitigation do the job of a tank? Answer, they cannot. The only thing you can do is damage.

[Ghost_Spectre]

I don't think they do... this is why I ask him to explain the HOW and WHY. I have been doing so, or pointing him to posts that do so, in my explanations

 

Now you want to insult me. I understand exactly how mitigation works in this game. I know what Shield/Absorption and defense do. I know how to supplement them with my defensive abilities and DCDs. Neither you or the other poster understand how that works because you are not tanks. You do not play tanks. You are pseudo-tanks with DPS gear that offers not one bit of mitigation whatsoever.

 

It is clear that all of you skank players are full entrenched in your beliefs that skank tanks are the best option. They are for selfish players who refuse to support the team as pure tanks are intended to do.

 

Thank you for the nerf BWA is bring on all tanks disciplines. You are the reason for this nerf. You are responsible for this nerf. And hopefully, people will hold you accountable by not playing with you in PVP. You are the classic example of what selfishness does in a team oriented part of a game. You and your skank comrades caused the nerf for tanks and you'll not even be affected by it. You all screwed the rest of the pure tanking community. I hope you're proud.

[KendraP]

Now you want to insult me. I understand exactly how mitigation works in this game. I know what Shield/Absorption and defense do. I know how to supplement them with my defensive abilities and DCDs. Neither you or the other poster understand how that works because you are not tanks. You do not play tanks. You are pseudo-tanks with DPS gear that offers not one bit of mitigation whatsoever.

 

It is clear that all of you skank players are full entrenched in your beliefs that skank tanks are the best option. They are for selfish players who refuse to support the team as pure tanks are intended to do.

 

Thank you for the nerf BWA is bring on all tanks disciplines. You are the reason for this nerf. You are responsible for this nerf. And hopefully, people will hold you accountable by not playing with you in PVP. You are the classic example of what selfishness does in a team oriented part of a game. You and your skank comrades caused the nerf for tanks and you'll not even be affected by it. You all screwed the rest of the pure tanking community. I hope you're proud.

 

you've been insulting me all day... sorry if I get irked eventually? Working on my explanation for the rest. Do note: because not all damage is shieldable a shield increase from say 20 to 40% is NOT decreasing damage taken by 20%. It increases your chance of shielding a non-crit by 20%.

[KendraP]

I've already explained it too you. You refuse to see it. Especially with the shield. If you have that on a healer or light armor wearing DPS toon, that shield will only offer base protection chances. You really should look at your shield chance with those DPS mods.

 

What that means is even if your shield does its job, its only 20% chance to shield. If not, that means you will take 50% of the full damage coming in. You have no mitigation mods to stop or defend against those. You're no different than Vengeance/Vigilance discipline using a focus to shield with your shield ability.

 

Your shielded toon suffers and you do to. If it is a healer, they are going to focus healing themselves while you're being annihilated by the incoming damage even if you blow all your cool downs.

 

You cannot do a tank's job using DPS gear because you do not have any shielding, absorption or defense required to mitigate any damage. You do not have the damage reduction a tank gets with its tank gear. You'll take far more damage from attacks than a tank will. You cannot defend or protect anyone as a pure geared tank. You are not a tank. When I min/maxed my PvP armor I'd watch a smuggler or agent do their rotation on me and my health bar moved 10% to 15% without using any defensive abilities. Once they were done, it was my turn. You cannot do that because you have no tank defenses.

 

If you cannot see this, then you'll never see it. You believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that a skank tank is more viable in PVP than a real tank. It is a lie. How can a pseudo-tank with no tank mitigation do the job of a tank? Answer, they cannot. The only thing you can do is damage.

 

ok: you do realize not all damage it mitigatable? yellow (force/tech) damage CANNOT be defended and crits CANNOT be shielded. Thus, a say, 10% increase in def rating provides you with a 10% chance to defend against white damage ONLY. It is not a blanket 10% DR.

 

similarly for shield and absorb - to my understanding, shield is your chance to shield a hit, and absorb is the % of damage you absorb IF that hit is shielded. because shield DOES NOT work against crits, again, a 20% increase in shield chance is NOT a 20% DR. It's a extra 20% chance to absorb say an extra 20% of a NON CRIT.

 

so lets say there's a 30k yellow damage crit. This is COMPLETELY UNAVOIDABLE. You will take the full 30k REGARDLESS of gear.

 

Thus, I argue much of a tanks survivability in warzones comes from endurance and DCDs. Endurance means you can eat more of these completely UNMITIGATABLE hits. DCDs on tanks are better than DCDs on non-tanks (duh) (well except maybe if you're a pt XD )

 

So, obviously the usefullness of tank gear depends entirely on the portion of damage taken that is yellow or crits, and if it is high enough to make tank stats mitigation meaningless.

 

As an example, let's say someone has a 10k yellow damage non-crit. with 20% shield and 5% absorb: if it shields you take: 95% of 10k or 9500 damage.

with 40% shield and 50% absorb: you have a 40% chance of shielding 50% or you take 5k.

 

These numbers are tiny compared to the 30k UNAVOIDABLE hit I mentioned earlier.

[Ghost_Spectre]

ok: you do realize not all damage it mitigatable? yellow (force/tech) damage CANNOT be defended and crits CANNOT be shielded. Thus, a say, 10% increase in def rating provides you with a 10% chance to defend against white damage ONLY. It is not a blanket 10% DR.

 

My pure tank has up to a 55% K/E (Force & Tech) DR and 26% Elemental/Internal DR. its obvious your skank does not. So a defensive % chance that allows a person to not get hit by a critical, yellow, or some other damage type isn't viable? So you just dismiss this out of hand? That's what I thought. No wonder you argue that defense shouldn't be more than 2000.

 

One thing for sure, if I see any of your toons, especially your skank, I'm bowing out. Don't want to play with a selfish non-team playing member.

[KendraP]

My pure tank has up to a 55% K/E (Force & Tech) DR and 26% Elemental/Internal DR. its obvious your skank does not. So a defensive % chance that allows a person to not get hit by a critical, yellow, or some other damage type isn't viable? So you just dismiss this out of hand? That's what I thought. No wonder you argue that defense shouldn't be more than 2000.

 

One thing for sure, if I see any of your toons, especially your skank, I'm bowing out. Don't want to play with a selfish non-team playing member.

 

whatever, I'm done arguing. You have no idea what any of my toons even are, anyway.

[wadecounty]

My pure tank has up to a 55% K/E (Force & Tech) DR and 26% Elemental/Internal DR. its obvious your skank does not. So a defensive % chance that allows a person to not get hit by a critical, yellow, or some other damage type isn't viable? So you just dismiss this out of hand? That's what I thought. No wonder you argue that defense shouldn't be more than 2000.

 

One thing for sure, if I see any of your toons, especially your skank, I'm bowing out. Don't want to play with a selfish non-team playing member.

 

Every tank has the same base DR, its baked into the spec and tank stats do not affect it at all, they only alter defense and shield/absorb. What most tanks do is carry a shield with DPS mods/enhancement, augment for either DPS or endurance, and wear DPS gear (sometimes endurance heavy, sometimes not). This is because they are nearly as tanky as a tank with tank gear (since the majority of tank mitigation comes from pure base DR, base tank stats with shield, and cooldowns), but also now have the ability to contribute towards actually killing targets.

 

An example of how this plays out in a warzone, a Fury marauder is harassing your team, so you guard swap to the targets he's on to try to help mitigate his damage. Well, of his big attacks, 1 of them auto crits once a minute, and the other is always an auto crit. You'll never mitigate the yellow damage attack, and can only defend the white damage one, due to the auto crit properties. After that, most of the damage he does is a mixture of yellow and white damage, so this is where your tank gear can help a little bit.

 

But this isn't a zero sum game. While helping to mitigate his attacks is useful, you still have to kill him eventually to win (unless you're playing just for acid or stalling out nodes or something). The tank with pure tank gear will likely live slightly longer and make things slightly easier on his healer and guarded targets, but he'll still eventually be worn down... but the tank with DPS gear will contribute towards killing that marauder far quicker than the tank with tank gear, since the DPS gear benefits the tank on 100% of his attacks, while the tank gear benefits the tank on at best around 60-70% of incoming damage, and the extra stats you gain from tank gear is marginal anyways due to diminishing returns.

 

This also ignores the fact that the majority of the damage you help mitigate for your teammates as a tank actually comes from guard itself and peels, and these skills are much more important than the gear you wear. For example, quickly swapping guard to a target that is about to be focused by the enemy, using roots/slows/stuns on enemy DPS at the appropriate time, taunting the right targets and using it as much as possible.

 

That all being said, playing with pure tank gear isn't as bad as the PvP community tends to think it is. They overrate the amount of damage going out that can't be mitigated, and underrate the extra survivablity you get from the tank gear. But you'll only see that benefit if you are always queued with a solid healer, and even then, you'd only want to wear partial tank gear as the diminishing returns start relatively early and at least some DPS stat can help a lot, especially crit.

 

Your perspective however, that a tank's job isn't to do damage at all, is simply wrong with the way the game mechanics currently work, and you're either not very good at this game or a troll. Leaning towards the latter but who knows.

 

EDIT: The best way I can summarize why tank gear has more value in PvE than PvP, besides being unable to mitigate certain attacks, is what percentage of damage you're receiving. Tank gear will always reduce your damage by a smaller amount than DPS gear will increase it by, so your net gain will always be higher using DPS gear, but in PvE encounters, you can ensure in most cases that 60-80% of all incoming damage goes to the tank (up to 100% in fights without AOE damage, but that's rare). In PvP, in many situations, at best the tank is only going to be able to receive 50% of incoming damage due to guard, unless the opposing team decides to tank tunnel. This dramatically reduces the effectiveness of the tank mitigating damage through his gear, since most of the damage going out isn't going to the tank. And that 50% number is rare, its actually probably closer to around 25-40% since good DPS will actively swap targets to avoid hitting the guarded target.

Edited April 9, 2018 by wadecounty

[krosswong]

Now you want to insult me. I understand exactly how mitigation works in this game. I know what Shield/Absorption and defense do. I know how to supplement them with my defensive abilities and DCDs. Neither you or the other poster understand how that works because you are not tanks. You do not play tanks. You are pseudo-tanks with DPS gear that offers not one bit of mitigation whatsoever.

 

It is clear that all of you skank players are full entrenched in your beliefs that skank tanks are the best option. They are for selfish players who refuse to support the team as pure tanks are intended to do.

 

Thank you for the nerf BWA is bring on all tanks disciplines. You are the reason for this nerf. You are responsible for this nerf. And hopefully, people will hold you accountable by not playing with you in PVP. You are the classic example of what selfishness does in a team oriented part of a game. You and your skank comrades caused the nerf for tanks and you'll not even be affected by it. You all screwed the rest of the pure tanking community. I hope you're proud.

 

I don't think you do. If you'd like to prove me wrong, go ahead and explain to the rest of the class how def/shield/absorb works. If you can't, (which i don't think you can) it's probably best you leave the discussion to the professionals, kiddo.

[Madbent]

Yay! Another win for the forum trolls who are bad at PvP! Fix a problem that doesn't exist!

 

WTG trolls!

[AdjeYo]

My pure tank has up to a 55% K/E (Force & Tech) DR and 26% Elemental/Internal DR. its obvious your skank does not. So a defensive % chance that allows a person to not get hit by a critical, yellow, or some other damage type isn't viable? So you just dismiss this out of hand? That's what I thought. No wonder you argue that defense shouldn't be more than 2000.

 

One thing for sure, if I see any of your toons, especially your skank, I'm bowing out. Don't want to play with a selfish non-team playing member.

 

Oh how cool, you've got a 55 K/E DR? How come, oh from your amourings and spec? The exact same all skanks use, yes so much better than skanks. And 26% I/E DR you mean the exact same value anyone that has the same discipline as you has, that isn't affected by any gear at all? Yes that really makes the point on why pure tanks are better than skanks doesn't it?

Edited April 9, 2018 by AdjeYo

[Equeliber]

My pure tank has up to a 55% K/E (Force & Tech) DR and 26% Elemental/Internal DR. its obvious your skank does not.

 

No. It actually does. Those 2 stats are EXACTLY the same for defensively geared tanks and skank tanks.

 

If you think otherwise, it just shows that you don't have even a basic understanding of how defensive stats work and what they do.

[KendraP]

No. It actually does. Those 2 stats are EXACTLY the same for defensively geared tanks and skank tanks.

 

If you think otherwise, it just shows that you don't have even a basic understanding of how defensive stats work and what they do.

 

He doesn't i spent the entire day yesterday attempting to explain basic mechanics.

 

Gear affects you ability to avoid white damage (defense) or shield non-crits. No more or no less.