Are Chiss racist?

[puntingpassing]

I’ve heard from about 4 people that Chiss are a bit prejudiced and think they are better than everyone else. Would you say they are racist? If so... Are they correct in their assumption? Like, are they ACTUALLY better than, let’s say, humans—or do they just THINK they are better?

[JediAkemi]

Chiss are better at some things than baseline humans.

[phalczen]

I think they are more isolationists than racists per se. Like Wakanda

was isolationist before the events of Black Panther

.

 

But, we also know from the events of "A Traitor Among the Chiss" that

the Chiss are discriminatory against force sensitives among their species.

 

[Rebamcfan]

They're xenophobic species who believes themselves to be superior to other species. But there's a very good reason. If we look at the various species that inhabit the Unknown Regions with the Chiss (the Vagaari, Killiks and so forth), the Chiss show that their society is on higher level in some cases when compared to others.

Like in Outbound Flight where the Vagaari are oppressing other species but have not yet dared to attack the Ascendancy. And since their military doctrine dictates it, they won't go helping others unless they (the Chiss) are attacked. This is one of the turning points where Thrawn shows that how he is very different than other members of his species when he goes to act against them.

They do not like Force-sensitives indeed, the whole thing holds a stigma in Chiss society since sensitivity to Force is extremely rare amongst their species.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Rebamcfan

[Seireeni]

I think Rebamcfan said it very well. Of course, every chiss is an individual and in no way is every chiss xenophobic, but Chiss tend to view their society superior to other societies (and their beliefs are not completely without merit, since they are very advanced at several things, especially when comparing to their neighbors). Mostly they're just isolationist, though, preferring to keep to themselves and keep outsiders away from the Ascendancy -- even if they are occasionally giving snobbish glances at everyone else.

[Mournblood]

They are xenophobic purists. It's not really much more complicated than that.

[Aeneas_Falco]

I’ve heard from about 4 people that Chiss are a bit prejudiced and think they are better than everyone else. Would you say they are racist? If so... Are they correct in their assumption? Like, are they ACTUALLY better than, let’s say, humans—or do they just THINK they are better?

 

The Chiss are a bit xenophobic generally. Of course when it comes to individual Chiss there would be exceptions, but the culture as a whole tends toward distrust of outsiders.

 

As for whether they're "better" than humans...

 

They're supposed to be physically stronger than baseline humans.

[Rebamcfan]

I think Rebamcfan said it very well. Of course, every chiss is an individual and in no way is every chiss xenophobic, but Chiss tend to view their society superior to other societies (and their beliefs are not completely without merit, since they are very advanced at several things, especially when comparing to their neighbors). Mostly they're just isolationist, though, preferring to keep to themselves and keep outsiders away from the Ascendancy -- even if they are occasionally giving snobbish glances at everyone else.

 

I agree, they're very advanced, at least if we look at the various technologies they employ: The connor nets and the Charric weapons and that their engineers were able to reverse the shielding of the shield generators (probably remember that wrong but it was something about reversing, need to check Wookieepedia ).

Vagaari were advanced in some things though, like with the gravity well projectors that they used to bait their targets and keep them from leaving.

[Ardrossan]

In general, isolationist.

 

In this game, or in this time period, I'd say racist. They're the only alien allies of the overtly racist Sith Empire. Why is that, exactly? They [the empire] only other allies are the Mandos, who they basically have to pay to be friends. You don't end up in an alliance like that unless you share similar values or at the very least are willing to do some pretty nasty stuff.

 

But a lot of this is just speculation. They don't get used much in the vanilla storyline, and we don't hear much about them when they do show up. IIRC they have their own secret police [mentioned in the IA storyline on Voss].

 

I suspect that their ban on preemptive strikes didn't exist in this time period. Rather, it sounds like something that might have been a takeaway from this chapter in their history. Although that's an obvious retcon if it is the case.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Ardrossan

[JediAkemi]

The Chiss are a bit xenophobic generally. Of course when it comes to individual Chiss there would be exceptions, but the culture as a whole tends toward distrust of outsiders.

 

As for whether they're "better" than humans...

 

They're supposed to be physically stronger than baseline humans.

 

I'm pretty sure the Chiss have better senses than baseline humans (including better night vision), not necessarily greater base physical prowess.

 

To quote Thrawn "There are ways of blinding and deceiving electronic eyes. Sometimes the eyes of a Chiss are more accurate" - the context was in watching things happening in outer space.

[Aeneas_Falco]

I'm pretty sure the Chiss have better senses than baseline humans (including better night vision), not necessarily greater base physical prowess.

 

To quote Thrawn "There are ways of blinding and deceiving electronic eyes. Sometimes the eyes of a Chiss are more accurate" - the context was in watching things happening in outer space.

 

It seems the Chiss being stronger is from a supplemental book on aliens for the Star Wars pen and paper roleplaying game. Or at least that is what the wiki provides for it's source.

 

"Their blue skin, jet black hair and red eyes generally commanded attention once they were in a crowd of regular humanoids, and these features made them physically striking and instantly recognizable.[6]. Male and female Chiss tend to be more powerfully built when compared to Humans but exhibit the same variances as Humanoid sexes. "

 

Chiss - Legends - Wookieepedia

[catsi]

For me the Chiss remind me of Imperial Japan pre WW2. An advanced Isolationist culture that tthanks to little outside interference considers itself rightly in some ways superior to others. Individuals vary as others here have said but for the most part the Chiss even individually hold strong loyalty to the ascendancy first, their clan/house second, and other loyalties third.

[JediAkemi]

Hmm. The later d20 Star Wars RPG books (the ones that I have) had the Chiss possessing superior senses and a species bonus to Intelligence, but made no mention of greater base strength or muscle mass.

[phalczen]

I suspect that their ban on preemptive strikes didn't exist in this time period. Rather, it sounds like something that might have been a takeaway from this chapter in their history. Although that's an obvious retcon if it is the case.

 

An interesting thought. Given Zahn's involvement with "A Traitor Among the Chiss," I wouldn't be surprised if he tailored the behaviors of the ancient Ascendancy to fit his view of the Chiss of the OT-era. Just because SWTOR isn't canon as a whole doesn't mean Zahn won't make it reflect his "canonical" vision.

[Seireeni]

An interesting thought. Given Zahn's involvement with "A Traitor Among the Chiss," I wouldn't be surprised if he tailored the behaviors of the ancient Ascendancy to fit his view of the Chiss of the OT-era. Just because SWTOR isn't canon as a whole doesn't mean Zahn won't make it reflect his "canonical" vision.

 

The ban on preemptive strikes was very much in effect in Zahn's works, though. So if he were to tailor the Chiss to fit his view, they would be following it.

[phalczen]

The ban on preemptive strikes was very much in effect in Zahn's works, though. So if he were to tailor the Chiss to fit his view, they would be following it.

I meant to say that if he was going to come up with a canonical explanation for why the Chiss have the views they have at the time of the OT, his involvement in "A Traitor Among the Chiss" would be an opportunity for him to explain it. Or start to explain it.

[Seireeni]

I meant to say that if he was going to come up with a canonical explanation for why the Chiss have the views they have at the time of the OT, his involvement in "A Traitor Among the Chiss" would be an opportunity for him to explain it. Or start to explain it.

 

Ah, that makes sense. ^^ However, I feel it could have been connected to their isolationist behavior. The Chiss just want to mind their own business and wish not to get involved with other peoples' business -- and attacking someone would be pretty damn involved.

[Ardrossan]

I didn't realize Zahn was involved in aTAtC. That is actually the most hopeful news I've heard about swtor's current ability to tell good stories. Although otoh I assume he was also involved in Thrawn's appearances in Rebels, and that was drek, so who knows?

 

Ah, that makes sense. ^^ However, I feel it could have been connected to their isolationist behavior. The Chiss just want to mind their own business and wish not to get involved with other peoples' business -- and attacking someone would be pretty damn involved.

 

Right, but they aren't really isolationist at this point in time. They're in an alliance with the Empire. And they're close enough allies that you'll see Chiss in various parts of the Imperial military structure, not merely liaising as CDF, but under Imperial authority. Granted, based on appearances, it's generally in areas that are part of the Chiss sphere of influence [like the Chiss traitor in the SW storyline who was tracking Xerender on Hoth], but that's a level of cooperation that you don't see with other allies like the Mandos.

[Seireeni]

I didn't realize Zahn was involved in aTAtC. That is actually the most hopeful news I've heard about swtor's current ability to tell good stories. Although otoh I assume he was also involved in Thrawn's appearances in Rebels, and that was drek, so who knows?

 

Right, but they aren't really isolationist at this point in time. They're in an alliance with the Empire. And they're close enough allies that you'll see Chiss in various parts of the Imperial military structure, not merely liaising as CDF, but under Imperial authority. Granted, based on appearances, it's generally in areas that are part of the Chiss sphere of influence [like the Chiss traitor in the SW storyline who was tracking Xerender on Hoth], but that's a level of cooperation that you don't see with other allies like the Mandos.

 

Iirc there was some kind of info (might have been in game codex but I can't remember anymore) that explained why the Chiss are allied with the Empire. The Empire conquered quote a few places, and attempted to do the same to the Ascendancy, but the Chiss turned out to be more trouble than the Empire had expected. So, instead of conquest, they offered an alliance, which the Ascendancy accepted since they knew they couldn't beat Sith Empire in a prolonged war. So, it wasn't their choice to get involved with the Empire, they simply tried to keep their independence.

 

As for the Rebels appearance of Thrawn, I have gotten the feeling that Zahn was not involved. Iirc he said in some interview that he was allowed to see the first scene where Thrawn appears before it was aired, and was happy to see something he created in animation, which feels like a weird thing to say if you're actively participating in the creation of that animation. In addition, Thrawn's personality is somewhat different in Rebels (where he's portrayed as somewhat immoral, practical commander, leaning to Thrawn trilogy characterization) and Zahn's novel (where he's more of a grey area character, only hurting people when it's the necessary thing to do, leaning towards how he was portrayed in Outbound Flight and Choices of One).

Edited April 9, 2018 by Seireeni

[Rebamcfan]

Iirc there was some kind of info (might have been in game codex but I can't remember anymore) that explained why the Chiss are allied with the Empire. The Empire conquered quote a few places, and attempted to do the same to the Ascendancy, but the Chiss turned out to be more trouble than the Empire had expected. So, instead of conquest, they offered an alliance, which the Ascendancy accepted since they knew they couldn't beat Sith Empire in a prolonged war. So, it wasn't their choice to get involved with the Empire, they simply tried to keep their independence.

 

As for the Rebels appearance of Thrawn, I have gotten the feeling that Zahn was not involved. Iirc he said in some interview that he was allowed to see the first scene where Thrawn appears before it was aired, and was happy to see something he created in animation, which feels like a weird thing to say if you're actively participating in the creation of that animation. In addition, Thrawn's personality is somewhat different in Rebels (where he's portrayed as somewhat immoral, practical commander, leaning to Thrawn trilogy characterization) and Zahn's novel (where he's more of a grey area character, only hurting people when it's the necessary thing to do, leaning towards how he was portrayed in Outbound Flight and Choices of One).

 

I remember reading that he had input in the final half of season 3, but I could be wrong. Regarding Thrawn's appearance in Rebels though, I think there's a pretty good reason why he is more ruthless towards the Rebels after season 3. They inflict defeat upon defeat on him, and The Emperor isn't exactly most forgiving person (he still admires them and keeps his word when Ezra surrenders to him) . I think we'll be seeing a turn to this more colder Thrawn in Thrawn: Alliances, since he needs to work with Vader.

 

And if the revealed passage from the book tells us anything, he may need to do something nasty to prove his loyalty to Empire in order to keep his position as Grand Admiral.

 

[Seireeni]

I remember reading that he had input in the final half of season 3, but I could be wrong. Regarding Thrawn's appearance in Rebels though, I think there's a pretty good reason why he is more ruthless towards the Rebels after season 3. They inflict defeat upon defeat on him, and The Emperor isn't exactly most forgiving person (he still admires them and keeps his word when Ezra surrenders to him) . I think we'll be seeing a turn to this more colder Thrawn in Thrawn: Alliances, since he needs to work with Vader.

 

And if the revealed passage from the book tells us anything, he may need to do something nasty to prove his loyalty to Empire in order to keep his position as Grand Admiral.

 

I can understand the series shaping him into a colder person, but since the novel ended (or at least seemed to me it ended) just before he first appeared in Rebels, I thought it was weird how his personality was different. Of course, Rebels has a reason to only show his villainous side and the novel shows his actions in a sympathetic light, which explains at least some of it. It just didn't feel like natural character development to me, more like two people writing the same character differently.

 

I have to admit I haven't read said revealed passage nor have I seen the whole season 3 of Rebels. I started watching it just to see Thrawn, and while I thought Thrawn was interesting enough there, I felt they could have done more with his character. And I can't stand most of the main cast, but that's probably just me not liking that type of shows.

[Rebamcfan]

I can understand the series shaping him into a colder person, but since the novel ended (or at least seemed to me it ended) just before he first appeared in Rebels, I thought it was weird how his personality was different. Of course, Rebels has a reason to only show his villainous side and the novel shows his actions in a sympathetic light, which explains at least some of it. It just didn't feel like natural character development to me, more like two people writing the same character differently.

 

I have to admit I haven't read said revealed passage nor have I seen the whole season 3 of Rebels. I started watching it just to see Thrawn, and while I thought Thrawn was interesting enough there, I felt they could have done more with his character. And I can't stand most of the main cast, but that's probably just me not liking that type of shows.

 

In my honest opinion, he's not evil when compared to Vader or Tarkin (though I am biased in this since he is my favorite Star Wars -character and knowing his backstory, I just can't see him villain, even in Rebels ). He's pragmatic, but he also sees the human side of things and does his best to avert meaningless casualties.

I definitely suggest watching Rebels season 3 to end, Thrawn has some truly fantastic moments there (especially in the end of episode 17, Through Imperial Eyes and in finale). If you liked Rogue One, season 3's second half has some nice additions that tie into it as well as to overall saga (formation of Rebel Alliance). Season 4 is the same, but the ending there really left me and other people in awestruck state.

I found the Rebels and the main characters to be rather childish and bit silly on occasion, but I grew to love them over the years. So many fine moments of character development and it tied the Clone Wars-series nicely with it (made me like Ahsoka and Rex so much more). I suggest giving the show another try, who knows if you might find something that you like.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Rebamcfan

[Seireeni]

In my honest opinion, he's not evil when compared to Vader or Tarkin (though I am biased in this since he is my favorite Star Wars -character and knowing his backstory, I just can't see him villain, even in Rebels ). He's pragmatic, but he also sees the human side of things and does his best to avert meaningless casualties.

I definitely suggest watching Rebels season 3 to end, Thrawn has some truly fantastic moments there (especially in the end of episode 17, Through Imperial Eyes and in finale). If you liked Rogue One, season 3's second half has some nice additions that tie into it as well as to overall saga (formation of Rebel Alliance). Season 4 is the same, but the ending there really left me and other people in awestruck state.

I found the Rebels and the main characters to be rather childish and bit silly on occasion, but I grew to love them over the years. So many fine moments of character development and it tied the Clone Wars-series nicely with it (made me like Ahsoka and Rex so much more). I suggest giving the show another try, who knows if you might find something that you like.

 

I'll probably try to watch the show again just for Thrawn, but I'm probably not gonna fall in love with it. I watched season 1 of Clone Wars and started watching season 2, but gave up when I kept forgetting to watch it and realized I didn't care I forgot. Mostly due to Ashoka -- I won't go to details in a completely unrelated thread, but I greatly disliked her. And when it's a full cast of "Ashokas" in Rebels... I feel I can't get over the characters being so silly and childish, or plots being imo geared towards children and very black and white...

 

I don't feel Thrawn's that evil, either, but when every time he kills anyone, it's portrayed as a horrendous deed, but every time the main cast kills people, it's presented as something to be cheered... I feel the show is portraying him as more evil than he actually is. But I don't know, maybe it gets better in later episodes?

[BlazeTomahawk]

Even if they are, so what?

 

There’s a big difference (imo) between being racist against ACTAUL different races and the SAME RACE just with a different color skin

 

You can easily say “Wookiee are stronger than humans” and it’s not racist, but say “white people are smarter than black people”. And that’s totally racist

[Myrmicus]

Nowere did I find any reference to Chiss having a lower birth rate of Force Sensitives.

It's just how they treat Force Sensitive Chiss that makes such being rares. A Chiss is killed or exiled if caught using the Force, with his whole family suffering the same fate. Add their isolationnism to that and that's no wonder we aren't supposed to see a lot of Chiss Jedi/Sith.

 

On a sidenote, that's how I roleplay my Chiss Inquisitor : one who used the Force to climb the hierarchy, got caught, had a powerfull family so everyone got exiled instead of executed. Sold as a slave to their allies. Became an apprentice... and we know the inquisitor story.

 

 

As for their xenophobic tendancies, isolationism tend to make them appear that way. But I think they are more pragmatic. Thrawn was the first one to appear and, of course, shaped the whole specy because of his popularity : they are cold and pragmatic military geniuses. I'm currently reading the Vong saga and they are, again, one of the few forces in the galaxy able to stand their ground against them. The fact that the ascendancy is a formal ally of the Empire, much like a vassal, is quite telling : no other world, or even specy, under the Sith Empire rule, could obtain this level of freedom. I mean... Sith are banned from setting a foot on the Chiss homeworld.

 

This negociation between the Sith and the Chiss is, in my opinion, the best proof that the Chiss aren't that xenophobic, because they are too pragmatic for that.