Why NO KILL option on Ashara?

[QuinlanSaathis]

And I'm referring to people's behavior regarding the recent returns. We've had Andronikos, Vector, Corso, Risha and Ashara back this year. The only one that people are whining about is Ashara but they claim they want "equality" with kill options and want everyone to have a kill option. If you want equality, you should be whining for a kill option for Andronikos and Vector just as hard as Ashara. If people can come up with valid reasons to kill Ashara for having a brain of her own, people can come up with just as many for the men. But they don't.

 

And if you think it's a DS Sith's nature to kill Ashara you should also think it's their nature to kill off Andronikos or Quinn. But again, that doesn't seem to happen, does it. In fact we hear nothing but crying about how terrible it is that precious Quinn can finally be killed for betraying the Sith Warrior.

 

As a direct answer to your questions.

 

I haven't until now mentioned the other returns because this is an Ashara thread and I make it a point to TRY to stay on topic whenever I can, I don't always succeed like now where I feel I need to respond.

 

• Andronikos - This return was done right for what it was, he was contrite and never gave up trying to find you but that is only end. From the start he knew he had landed butter side up with this gig with the SI and he stated it in fact, he never betrayed the SI nor did he cause any arguements with the SI, you might even say he was just there. Even my darkest chararcter had no head cannon or real reason to kill him.
   
  
• Vector - I started one of the hate threads for Vector it wasn't a joke but it was turned into one. Most of my Agents would have never taken him along and killed him outright as they would now if it was possible, not out of bloodlust but because a hive mind is the worse security threat I can think of, everything Vector knows about Imperial Intelligence and the Empire is known by all the Killiks as well, that is all the reason I need.
   
  
• Corso - Killing Corso would be like killing Jethro Clampett (google it) what is the point. I only currently have one Smuggler who is going "dark" and she is not yet into the areas where these choices need to be made. She is very hard to play to her personality with the way the character is written but I make do, she might want Corso dead but I haven't decided yet so I have no argument to make.
   
  
• Risha - I am not sure about Risha yet, only my credit-hungry Smuggler has picked her up so far and because Risha is not a big pile of credits, cannot lead to a big pile of credits and isn't worth a big pile of credits, Smuggler doesn't care. This may change when my male boytoy Smuggler gets around to picking her up and who knows what psycho ***** from the Corso entry will do but so far it is what it is, no real reason to kill her
  

 

Right from the very start, on Korriban, during the Sith training it was established that the SI would be expected to use their lightning to torture and interrogate, it was one of the specific tasks and that carried on through the entire game. Now take a look at the rest of the SI's companions.

 

• Xalek - Submitted to you after a fight to prove supremacy, he knew he couldn't win but it was his nature to try and that is ok as it was done correctly. He was also your true apprentice through the game in deed, word and deference.
   
  
• Andronikos - See above
   
  
• Talos - Couldn't have been happier to see you, lost in his own world as usual and not capable of mounting any kind of rescue so returned to his normal life. He returned to you as he left with admiration and respect.
   
  
• Khem - Khem is dead, his bond was so strong it could not survive the separation.
   
  
• Ashara - Her story is laid bare in this thread, a no talent Jedi that joined you out of fear and then lied to herself as to why, most of us Dark Siders would have killed her on Taris those that didn't were probably ready to and that insubordinate return would have been the catalyst. To quote Mako to the Bounty Hunter on Alderaan,
  "I have never seen a sense of entitlement outweigh a sense of self-preservation like that"
  

[MikeCobalt]

"I have never seen a sense of entitlement outweigh a sense of self-preservation like that"

Hahahahaaha That is funny.

[Lunafox]

Hahahahaaha That is funny.

 

I thought so too. Perfect quote for Ashara.

[QuinlanSaathis]

To add to my last post.

 

Quinn is very much like Ashara, some of my SW's held the grudge and some did not, for some he is dead and for some he survives. I must say however that given is conduct post betrayal he was harder to want dead than Ashara and I would happily trade my ability to kill Quinn for the ability to kill Ashara.

 

The whole not talking to you on Dromund Kaas was the last nail in his coffin in a few cases.

[Estelindis]

The whole not talking to you on Dromund Kaas was the last nail in his coffin in a few cases.

I dunno how much story / meta segregation you engage in, but this may be less an issue of Quinn and more to do with the writers' parameters changing between KotFE and KotET. Because of us not getting nearly as many chapters as they originally intended, we have a situation where Quinn doesn't talk to the warrior on DK meaning that he's not at the warrior's side through the culmination of the whole KotET storyline. But if they'd done as many chapters as they'd planned, he would've come back earlier and been with us at the end. Now maybe you don't let that consideration alter how you feel about the characters, but I tend to give an amount of leeway on these grounds.

[QuinlanSaathis]

I dunno how much story / meta segregation you engage in, but this may be less an issue of Quinn and more to do with the writers' parameters changing between KotFE and KotET. Because of us not getting nearly as many chapters as they originally intended, we have a situation where Quinn doesn't talk to the warrior on DK meaning that he's not at the warrior's side through the culmination of the whole KotET storyline. But if they'd done as many chapters as they'd planned, he would've come back earlier and been with us at the end. Now maybe you don't let that consideration alter how you feel about the characters, but I tend to give an amount of leeway on these grounds.

 

Its got nothing to do with how I feel about the characters

It is how my character feels about the characters.

 

I act in accordance with the built up personality that I have created for each character, it is fully immersive until a game play aspect forces it not to be.

 

I don't feel slighted by the DK snub but some of my SW's sure do.

Especially his wife....... man you do not want to get in front of her not after what he did.....

[Estelindis]

Its got nothing to do with how I feel about the characters

It is how my character feels about the characters.

Fair enough. I mostly act depending on my characters' feelings too, but I do let other considerations influence the choices.

[QuinlanSaathis]

Fair enough. I mostly act depending on my characters' feelings too, but I do let other considerations influence the choices.

 

I have to admit sometimes they can cut their nose of in spite of their face.....

Sometimes I need to get creative to keep someone.

[NHBabe]

I have to admit sometimes they can cut their nose of in spite of their face.....

Sometimes I need to get creative to keep someone.

 

When I have to do something that is totally against what my character would normally do, just to keep someone I normally wouldn't, I just think to myself "XYZ person caught me on a 'good mood' day"

[QuinlanSaathis]

When I have to do something that is totally against what my character would normally do, just to keep someone I normally wouldn't, I just think to myself "XYZ person caught me on a 'good mood' day"

 

I find other ways to met out punishment.

Cybernetics is a favorite for example.

Edited April 20, 2018 by QuinlanSaathis

[Paulsutherland]

Can we just throw her into the maw of the Sarlacc pit? I'm sure the beast will take her, if it doesn't ... well ... maybe have her walk the plank on Manann? Maybe the sharks will get her?

[Shayddow]

add Xalek to Male companions that can be killed.

 

 

 

Actually, what I wish they had done (I know, not in the budget- disappointing), is to make both Ashara and Andronikos available as an alert for ALL classes. And yes, have them both recruitable ( My smuggler would have recruited Andronikos in a heartbeat), and either killable or redeemable (My Jedi LS-ers would have liked to be able to "return her to the fold", and , my Darth Nox, who hasn't gone all the way thru KOTFE yet, would have killed her. <My Darth Imperius romanced her and thus had that reunion, but then, he made choices in his main story that were very unusual for a Sith (kept Zash instead of Khem's "soul", and LS-V) - but still chooses the Empire. He doesn't believe in the Jedi approach for headcanon - Backstory reasons).

He became Lightside on DK after the encounter with a certain ghost in the Dark Temple (not part of the SI story, its a explorer mission available to all classes). But he enjoys using his LIghtning on those he considers to be the enemy.

[Coge]

I just finished playing the return and what a complete piece of garbage. Ashara my INQ's equal? Don't make me laugh. Fire the idiot who wrote this trash. There has to be a kill option. Like most people on the thread said, Ashara is a flakey twirp. She didn't fight all the bads. Ashara is delusional. A real true Sith wouldn't hesitate to kill her.

[Asmodesu]

I just finished playing the return and what a complete piece of garbage. Ashara my INQ's equal? Don't make me laugh. Fire the idiot who wrote this trash. There has to be a kill option. Like most people on the thread said, Ashara is a flakey twirp. She didn't fight all the bads. Ashara is delusional. A real true Sith wouldn't hesitate to kill her.

 

The writer's already left Bioware, months ago.

Minus the ranting words, I agree. The equal thing was a bit too on the nose. They just let her do the Sith Code thing of breaking her master's chains without giving her a challenge over it, instead making the Master look like a dolt.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Asmodesu

[QuinlanSaathis]

The writer's already left Bioware, months ago.

Minus the ranting words, I agree. The equal thing was a bit too on the nose. They just let her do the Sith Code thing of breaking her master's chains without giving her a challenge over it, instead making the Master look like a dolt.

 

Yes that would have worked.

Even the darkest Sith could then say something like " So you did learn something after all, now you are SIth" or something else to that effect.

[Asmodesu]

Yes that would have worked.

Even the darkest Sith could then say something like " So you did learn something after all, now you are SIth" or something else to that effect.

 

Because that is what it felt like to me I do wish they hadn't missed the opportunity for the SI to point out what she'd just done was somewhat sithy in that regard. At the very least.

[Coge]

The writer's already left Bioware, months ago.

Minus the ranting words, I agree. The equal thing was a bit too on the nose. They just let her do the Sith Code thing of breaking her master's chains without giving her a challenge over it, instead making the Master look like a dolt.

 

Good riddance then.

 

Yeah some ranting there sorry, but like I said I just got it done and it angered me and left me feeling like a chump. Good job BW, way to make your subs feel great in a game they pay for. What was the point of building up the INQ as this powerful Sith if they can't even take out their lamest apprentice? They could have had a fight and INQ puts her in her place, but I would rather have killed her. Never liked her anyway.

[MikeCobalt]

*As Ashara speaks in a most arrogant, naïve, insubordinate manner The Sith Inquisitor steps forward saying "I see you have become most unsettling and forget your place without my presence young one" The Inquisitor then lets out multiple streams of purple, violet and white electricity towards Ashara who then reacts by holding off the Sith Electricity with her own light saber but just barely just as Ashara takes a knee from the force of the Inquisitors assault the Inquisitor stops and smirks "It seems you have grown and matured while I was away, before by now you would have been a smoldering blackspot on the floor.

 

Apparently BW wants Ashara alive going forward ( Atleast I like to believe there was a Reason they OK'd that dialog as it was written), this preserves the S.I.'s position while acknowledging Ashara has grown keeping her alive same time.

Edited April 23, 2018 by MikeCobalt

[inukamisan]

I agree with guy above, again it can be easy fixed, Bioware please fix it...

 

Please add an option to put her in her place, for romance (make her submit) then show her you love her,

 

killing her,

 

or just make her submit...

 

or brush her off

[SerraShar]

anyone noticed she pulled a Jacob ? I was on the beach musing , while the world around me was burning . No sorry , can't join you cose you haven't changed (I have changed and gonna help new wifey and her friends , but you are welcome to play cannon fodder for us) .

 

I always couldn't stand her (and pretty much can't stand any of the Sorc companions to be honest) , because as a DS player..she just doesn't belong with you .So this just make her ten time worse .

 

Her and the pirate both should've been dead bodies .

[Ardrossan]

Now we're not just asking for a kill option, there also needs to be 'enslave' and 'dominate?' Maybe, just maybe, Bioware doesn't want to facilitate your ability to engage in extensive onscreen torture and abuse of a companion. Just saying.

 

This a good post, but it's merely an appetizer for the great post to come. No, not mine.

 

OP: I'm pleased to remind you of this post. I know it offended you, and you ended up pretty much ignoring all of it to reiterate arguments that it had demolished. And now here I am reposting it for your edification. Oh well.

 

As for the "SJWs are ruining muh game" folks, hold on to your butts.

 

The Ashara romance is, imo, the most twisted romance in the game IF you play it Darkside. And you can. Darkside Ashara romance is also the most troublingly realistic. Let me explain, for those of you who haven't, or simply wouldn't, do this.

 

My male Darth Nox took every opportunity in Ashara's recruitment mission on Taris to hit her with lightning. And there are a lot of chances. He also convinced her to murder, in cold blood, a vanquished and surrendered Sith. THEN he got her to justify it, led her along the prim rose path to the conclusion that she had to do it, because if she hadn't done it, then she would personally have been responsible for any one that Sith might have hurt or killed in the future. Put aside the fact that it's a ludicrous supposition, it is NOT ludicrous that Ashara could be induced to believe it. Understand the ability of an evil abusive ahole to twist the minds of vulnerable people.

 

Then, in ship conversations, my Darth Nox fought with her and belittled her and mocked her on every opportunity. The only time my Darth Nox did not openly antagonize her was to occasionally flirt with her, and the writers made sure there are flirt options leading you into the romance that are not exactly loving or thoughtful. In the parlance of internet trolls, you can neg her till she loves you for it, till she decides to marry you.

 

And no matter how harshly you tortured her within literal minutes of meeting her, no matter how much you demean her and ridicule her, no matter how many times she watches you torture and murder other people, some of them arguably deserving, and others completely innocent, she never fails to project ONTO you the single idea she's invented to justify HER choice to join you: she's going to change the Empire for the better. That's her delusional mission, and no matter how evil or abusive you are, she imagines you have some goodness within that you simply don't.

 

If that doesn't sound familiar to you, then count yourself lucky, because it means you have never yourself been in a psychologically, emotionally, or physically abusive relationship, or you have never been close to someone else who has. But if this looks familiar to you, then you see it for exactly what it is. In this game, if you play Darth Nox, and you play him properly, you can be a domestic abuser of the highest order.

 

It doesn't matter that a Light Side Inquisitor may be working actively for the goal Ashara was assigned in the writing room. When you play Dark Side, you as the PC are not working for that, and there's no alternate path for Ashara in the game, no trigger that flips the tracks so that she deals with an evil player-character as if he were evil. They didn't do the Jaessa thing. Maybe they meant to? It got cut for time/cost? Or maybe they pointedly wanted a fallen Jedi companion for a Sith character who never really gives in to the darkside. Who knows. It doesn't really matter this far down the line anymore. The fact of the matter is that the developers' decision not to give the Ashara a dark side persona left us all with the opportunity to live out our domestic abuser fantasies.

 

I don't think they meant to do it. But they did do it. And they inadvertently made it the most realistic romance in the game. There are far more people out there like this than innocent-minded people tend to think, people in relationships with abusive, gaslighting losers who nevertheless manage to see a Light Side in them in contrast to all factual realities. The lovey dovey romances in this game all rely on a certain suspension of disbelief, and none of them are perfectly realistic. The Dark Side Ashara romance is utterly realistic.

 

They kind of righted this during her return. Now if you choose to insult her, try to control her, or attempt to torture her, she stands up for herself and says "no more." And then she simply walks away. Naturally, it strains credulity that Darth Nox would permit this, but consider the narrative alternatives.

 

If there were a kill-option, then Bioware would have enabled the players who chose to explore their domestic abuser fantasies to carry those through to their darkest possible conclusion. Consider that narrative arc from start to finish, and then decide if you think internal consistency with the relative power differential between Darth Nox and Ashara is important enough to warrant a kill option. I'll display the whole arc, for clarity:

 

You meet a frustrated, angsty girl at odds with the two men she considers her family (Masters Ryan and Ocera), and you stage an attack on her so you can pretend to save her, and then you torture her, force her to murder a guy, then torture her some more with lines about her suffering until she learns to submit, then you slaughter her family, dangle her as bait, allow her to watch as you demonstrate a level of power which VASTLY exceeds her own, and then you give her an ultimatum while again torturing her, that she can join you or die. You've exploited her, tortured her, slain her family, and made her run off with you. K ... now ... imagine she's a cute 20-something blonde college drop out, and the player character is just some random ahole dude. Still thinking this is a good narrative to have in our Star Wars game?

 

But we're not done. After you force her to run away with you, you embark on a campaign to emotionally and psychologically abuse her until she thinks she's in-love with a man who wants to make the world a better place, when in fact all he wants to do is to exploit, hurt, and murder anyone it takes to get his way. Then you continue to abuse her emotionally until she decides to marry you. You systematically deconstruct her relationships to anything that mattered to her before you came along, allowing her to talk to a revered Jedi Master, suspecting or knowing he will reject her, and when he does, you twist that to make her further doubt her place in the galaxy, and then tell her that her place is with you.

 

It's diabolical.

 

And then she marries you.

 

And then - blessed day, she's free. Her abuser is locked away for 5 years. Then he gets out, on a kind of space-parole. He immediately returns to his old ways, exploiting and using and murdering anyone he chooses, acquiring power and influence. She spends the next year staying as far from him as possible. She's not sure she's strong enough to face him again, but she VERY MUCH likes the new woman she became once her abuser got locked up. She's worried about losing that new stronger, independent side of herself to Darth Nox again.

 

But then he finds her. And he wants to pick back up where they left off. He wants to insult her, hurt her, and make her come along.

 

Now ... some of you want there to be an option where she stands up to him, and he Fing KILLS HER FOR IT?

 

Look, I get it, maybe you played a female Inquisitor, or a non-romantic male Darth Nox, and Ashara's delusional insistence on adhering to Jedi philosophy while simultaneously following an evil Sith on missions throughout the Empire in opposition to the Republic's war efforts on Hoth, Belsavis, Voss, Corellia, Ilum, and Makeb ... it's irritating. You inquisitor wants to kill her. But step outside yourself for just a second, and consider this:

 

Most of the complaints about there being no way to stay true to Darth Nox's Dark Side tendencies and ALSO keep Ashara ... they amount to, and in some cases literally are, an insistence that player agency trump Ashara's agency. Maybe you don't see the real world parallel there, and if you don't, then nothing anyone says will make you see it. But for the rest of you, do you see now why a kill option for Ashara is a lot more trouble than it's worth. Even if you can't find the compassion to think about the impact this kind of thing might have on a real player who has themselves been the victim of abuse, then at least think about this with some cold logic. The kill option for Ashara in the midst of the #metoo moment would be especially poor optics, and EA cares about that kind of thing, even if they are often inept at managing it.

 

Other options less severe than murdering Ashara are also, for the same reasons, problematic. She escapes her abuser, finds a new more powerful and independent side of herself, and when her abuser tracks her down, he tortures her enough that she breaks and rejoins him? K ... that may be a thing that happens in the real world, a dude gets out of prison and returns to his old ways and manages to tear down a woman who found herself during his absence, and also it may be a thing that Darth Nox in the game world could achieve ... but do you really want that narrative in the game? Don't get distracted by "butwhatabouts" with the Wrath and Vette. Just consider whether or not THIS narrative, as I've described it about Ashara, is a narrative you want to exist in this game.

 

I don't. I much prefer the optics of Ashara standing up to a Dark Side Darth Nox and saying, emphatically, "No more." And then walking away. I like that a lot better. You ought to also. If you don't, maybe this a mirror on yourself into which you should peer carefully.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Ardrossan

[QuinlanSaathis]

This ridiculous rant is forgetting one important thing.

Back in the day if you treated her like **** then she would disapprove, there was a time when disapprove meant exactly that and there were not enough "flirts" to tip that balance back.

 

Then it was changed to influence where even bad attention is good, and all that bad added up to a high influence which was all that was needed to bring the romance forward.

 

What I am trying to say here is when this was working correctly you would not end up married to her.

[Ardrossan]

This ridiculous rant is forgetting one important thing.

Back in the day if you treated her like **** then she would disapprove, there was a time when disapprove meant exactly that and there were not enough "flirts" to tip that balance back.

 

Then it was changed to influence where even bad attention is good, and all that bad added up to a high influence which was all that was needed to bring the romance forward.

 

What I am trying to say here is when this was working correctly you would not end up married to her.

 

You could still abuse her in 2.0 and end up marrying her. Comp gifts was a fine way of gaming the system, and a particularly nice way of connecting back to Seelvir's argument, ie. guy acts like a negging jackhole, gives lots of courting and rep memorabilia gifts, and she's back inside her delusion that you're a good guy deep down. Deeeeep down.

 

The bit about 'ridiculous rants' was a nice irony on your part. I'm actually amazed you were able to write a post without slagging the conspiracy of SJWs hellbent on ruining your gaming experience.

[QuinlanSaathis]

You could still abuse her in 2.0 and end up marrying her. Comp gifts was a fine way of gaming the system, and a particularly nice way of connecting back to Seelvir's argument, ie. guy acts like a negging jackhole, gives lots of courting and rep memorabilia gifts, and she's back inside her delusion that you're a good guy deep down. Deeeeep down.

 

The bit about 'ridiculous rants' was a nice irony on your part. I'm actually amazed you were able to write a post without slagging the conspiracy of SJWs hellbent on ruining your gaming experience.

 

I don't need to keep stating my argument, read the thread

You are the underwhelming minority on this topic.

 

This thread was dead till you decided to post that drivel again and it was lost before it began as Bioware was never going to change the encounter because they could never afford to admit the mistake.

[Lunafox]

This a good post, but it's merely an appetizer for the great post to come. No, not mine.

 

OP: I'm pleased to remind you of this post. I know it offended you, and you ended up pretty much ignoring all of it to reiterate arguments that it had demolished. And now here I am reposting it for your edification. Oh well.

 

As for the "SJWs are ruining muh game" folks, hold on to your butts.

 

So kind of you to remind and bump my thread. But I should probably take this moment to point out that none of that applied to me, so of course, I ignored most of it. I play a female Sorc that can't romance Ashara and wouldn't romance her even if she could. My character doesn't have the opportunity to flirt with her. There is no weird twisting of affection going on between Ashara and MY toon. The argument didn't succeed in demolishing anything I said, because again, it didn't apply to the female SI--no romance option. My Sorc was forced to take on a pitiful excuse of a Jedi wannabe as one of her apprentices and when Sith have an inadequate apprentice, they kill them.

 

And that's all I want to do, is kill her. I have no need for excessive torture or punishment, I only wish to execute her as it is a Sith's prerogative to do.

 

This game really highlights the important parts of Animal Farm. Some are more equal than others. Meaning that SW gets to kill their employee and fully corrupt their apprentice, whereas, SI can't choose not to take on that apprentice, can't fully corrupt her and certainly can't execute her. Wow...so powerful those SIs, how the heck did any of them get on the Dark Council. They made a cool class pathetic with this outcome.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Lunafox