gamephil Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 I don't remember how it was worded but it was something along the lines of her absorbing the energy from his death. Yeah, that was pretty much mine, too, with Vaylin returning to absorb all of that delicious energy from Ziost. That was not one of my happier story beats. But I still like the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskIsNotAmused Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 That doesn't actually help with the core issue, though I do thank you for your concern and the attempt. There was certainly a time when I would have done that, it's just long past. I'm happy that you can do it, but they gave me nothing to base it on. They described the torture and brainwashing of a child in excruciating detail, and then gave no opportunity to try to do anything about it. They had us outright say that Valkorion was not in charge. They presented our actions against Vaylin as heroic, even inspiring, when using her torture got the civilians fighting back. They referred to her as "depraved", said she was "more brutal" than her brother for killing a dozen Knights when he killed half of them. The very fact that her weakness was having to kneel to her abuser was a decision that they should have thought through better, and then we couldn't even be allowed an "I'm sorry". It felt to me as though hurting her more was supposed to be just and fair. That's the issue. I can always come up with a better story than this, but it's not just the story, which is bad enough. I just no longer have any faith that they didn't think it would be fun to humiliate, torture, and kill (multiple times) this woman, this victim of depravity. What's worse, for a lot of the fans, they seem to be right. I've just seen it too many times, I know such people exist, but had hoped that, for all their flaws, BWA was better. No longer. They just failed to present something better too many times, and that flushed years of good will in one shot. That's my central issue. And no headcanon can fix that, because it's not about the story, it's about how the story changed my perception of the writers. It's actually colored my perception of a lot of events in the game, because I used to make excuses for them, but couldn't this time. Them making some concession in canon would go a ways to improving that perception. Preferably, just allowing her to somehow be alive and allow us to treat her better, if that's what we choose. Now, to be fair, they did say this was a mistake, which does help. But I don't know if they know what the worst mistake really was, and so far they are resistant to do anything about it. Yes, I get that they can't always go back on their story, but this is one of those times I feel they should make an exception. It was just that bad. Edit: For Chapter 8, the wheel with, "You sick, twisted...", "Now you'll suffer before you die", "I don't care". Where's my, "I know what you've been through, but he/she was the last"? Arcann, if he's alive, hoping that her spirit has been obliterated. I know what they were going for, the VA even almost saves it, but as I've said, at a certain point I gave up trying to make excuses for them. "We've won". No, Commander, we really haven't, we just played into the hands of the real threat by finally killing his greatest victim so he could steal her power. Not to mention the whole "fleet will now kill millions" thing. I take your meaning -Nods- I guess I'm miss representing by implying my perceptions/head cannons make it ok for me - They don't. Just like, I'd excepted that the chara in DMC 5 was probably going to die, but by my reaction to actual events -YAAAAASS! Fist pump - in game I'd say that acceptance doesn't equate happy. Apparently I can accept a lot of unhappy/bad for moments of happy/good/interesting. Plus if I'm interested in the charas I feel obligated to stick with it to the end with/for them. Like in real life, lots of bad going around but at least they're not alone, some good can still come out of it Silly I know. Pretty much once I'm invested in something all thats left to do is hang in there and hope. I prefer to have a bad time with stuff I care about then have a good time with something I don't (Disclaimer - a good time with stuff I care about is preferable XD) . I'm sorry it effected your trust for the developer I wish we could find a way round so that you could enjoy the game again, I know what you mean with the Rpg that Is continually added to part and no one does Rpg's quite like Bioware -They're unique. Hmmmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Yeah, that was pretty much mine, too, with Vaylin returning to absorb all of that delicious energy from Ziost. That was not one of my happier story beats. But I still like the idea. I meant the energy released from Valkorion upon his death. If Nathema can come back to life, whose to say it can't work on people too? The stab wound may not have been the 'kill' shot on Vaylin? Rather the absorb ... thing he did afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 I meant the energy released from Valkorion upon his death. If Nathema can come back to life, whose to say it can't work on people too? The stab wound may not have been the 'kill' shot on Vaylin? Rather the absorb ... thing he did afterwards. Oh, that, yes, that's a much happier thing than I imagine Vaylin becoming the new Vitiate would be. It just sounded similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) I take your meaning -Nods- I guess I'm miss representing by implying my perceptions/head cannons make it ok for me - They don't. Yeah, I could have phrased that better, sorry. I didn't mean it was OK by you, just that the headcanon appeared to help more than it does me. And storytelling does help my annoyance, it just doesn't let me view the writers of this better. Edited March 26, 2019 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 Oh, that, yes, that's a much happier thing than I imagine Vaylin becoming the new Vitiate would be. It just sounded similar. I don't remember how the original post was worded but that was the general idea I got from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 I don't remember how the original post was worded but that was the general idea I got from it. I remember it now, that's about right, I think. I also just like the idea of her healing herself, without our intervention, so that always works for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 I remember it now, that's about right, I think. I also just like the idea of her healing herself, without our intervention, so that always works for me. If Leia can do a space bungee, then I don't think it's too crazy for Vaylin to self rez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 If Leia can do a space bungee, then I don't think it's too crazy for Vaylin to self rez. Exactly, though I usually say "if Yoda can generate a lightning bolt". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 Exactly, though I usually say "if Yoda can generate a lightning bolt". He also hits luke in the face with a stick! ... his walking stick ... sticks can become one with the force too? - Glancing over that Vaylin reddit thread. Some of those posts are making me question my decision to save Senya and Arcann. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskIsNotAmused Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 He also hits luke in the face with a stick! ... his walking stick ... sticks can become one with the force too? - Glancing over that Vaylin reddit thread. Some of those posts are making me question my decision to save Senya and Arcann. Oh dear! What do they say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 Oh dear! What do they say? Just comparing what Arcann did to the Galaxy vs what Vaylin did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakRoanin Posted March 27, 2019 Author Share Posted March 27, 2019 Just comparing what Arcann did to the Galaxy vs what Vaylin did. But how is Senya responsible, she literally sacrificed everything for both Arcann and Vaylin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 But how is Senya responsible, she literally sacrificed everything for both Arcann and Vaylin. Uhhh glancing at it, people are talking about how Senya was a disappointment in KOTET. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakRoanin Posted March 27, 2019 Author Share Posted March 27, 2019 I will agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 (edited) But how is Senya responsible, she literally sacrificed everything for both Arcann and Vaylin. Except, she really, really doesn't. She walked away from her, leaving her to the utter horrors of Nathema. She's the parent who stood aside while the other one abused the children. Did she come to regret it? Yes. Did she come back to try to correct the mistake? Yes, too late. And then, at the last, her explanation was, "She's broken, I see that now." Giving the Outlander permission to kill the daughter that she'd failed and the Outlander tormented more. If you don't see it that way, that's fine. I like Senya, too. But people have reacted to her according to their own experiences, and some of them recognize in her behavior they've seen in their lives. Some identify with Vaylin, her problems as a child that she was tortured for, and some resent the way Senya gave up on her while nearly dying for her precious boy. I'm certainly not going to tell you your interpretation is wrong, but I'm also not up to the task of telling those people they are wrong, either. Looks like this is irrelevant to the thread Paul was referring to, though. So it goes. Edited March 27, 2019 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 Glancing over that Vaylin reddit thread. Some of those posts are making me question my decision to save Senya and Arcann. Eh, I'll probably always save Senya. I have a few characters that would burn Arcann, I think, but I just can't bring myself to kill Senya. Mind you, not having to listen to some of their lines in the later part of KotET is not something I would mind, but the cost is just too high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Eh, I'll probably always save Senya. I have a few characters that would burn Arcann, I think, but I just can't bring myself to kill Senya. Mind you, not having to listen to some of their lines in the later part of KotET is not something I would mind, but the cost is just too high. Most of my characters are sitting at the end of KOTFE or just after Ziost. I've got no intention of taking any of them further into their stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) Most of my characters are sitting at the end of KOTFE or just after Ziost. I've got no intention of taking any of them further into their stories. Yeah, me too, though I'll probably take my people that are through KotET through the rest at some point. But if anything happens to change my mind on that, I'll still probably let her live. Edited March 28, 2019 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Yeah, me too, though I'll probably take my people that are through KotET through the rest at some point. But if anything happens to change my mind on that, I'll still probably let her live. I think I'll keep mine where they are for now. I might just YT whatever new content comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 I think I'll keep mine where they are for now. I might just YT whatever new content comes out. Can't say I blame you, but I do want to get videos of some of it with my own characters. It's the only thing that got me through KotET that second time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskIsNotAmused Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Ah, usual back and forth then . I think I age 40 years every time people start talking about what people `deserve` -exhausted- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Can't say I blame you, but I do want to get videos of some of it with my own characters. It's the only thing that got me through KotET that second time. Be sure to record Vaylin throwing that droid around on Iokath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 Ah, usual back and forth then . I think I age 40 years every time people start talking about what people `deserve` -exhausted- Personally, I think we should all simply come together in appreciation for the fact that Valkorion was the only one who fully, completely, and unequivocally deserved to die. I'm going to be very annoyed when he comes back unless he pulls Vaylin along with him and we get to have a, "How many times do we have to teach you this lesson, old man?" moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 Personally, I think we should all simply come together in appreciation for the fact that Valkorion was the only one who fully, completely, and unequivocally deserved to die. I'm going to be very annoyed when he comes back unless he pulls Vaylin along with him and we get to have a, "How many times do we have to teach you this lesson, old man?" moment. You think they'll bring back Valkorion/Vitate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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